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Another year right?

I do not have the the definitive answer of a cause, although alot of the physical evidence I have discovered (and not youtube videos) shows issues with both the cam surface, the lifter bearings, and possible valve control.

Reason why I argue with the following:

It's MDS

It's Idle Time

It's the cam so high in the block and not getting crank splash lubrication

It's no flow oil to the lifters


It's not enough oil flow to the lifters

And whatever else clickbait videos come of it, is that they all do not agree with the physical, and statistical data on the failures. They all have had lime light on revenue youtube and none of them are going to save an engine with bad parts. At best, I call these the Hemi Tick Fads. They generate intrest, and money.

Just like the newest idea of hellcat oil pump everything. It's not the fix, cause it does not meet the data as a fix.

It's just a hopeful idea, just like those who:

Removed MDS

Raised the Idle RPM

Installed higher pressure / volume pumps


Installed aftermarket lifters

For majority, lifter failure required 70-110K miles to become an issue. And most of those who did the repair typcially do not keep the car that long or it gets totaled from other stuff before the issue may happen again.

And when you have same engine, having same issues several times with short period perhaps that is a specfic failure on that engine, or maintence of it and not a leading front man for a whole slew of failures than in grand scheme are low compared to non-issue hemis.


And when you claim to be the master idea man behind a photo, of lifters, claiming one of them has your parts in it. When in fact it is far from the truth any amount of respect I may have had is def gone.


I had the failure, and very much was upset. I had went on a limb, bought a car never thought I could and it broke on me. However, 70,000 miles after my repair I went for a drive this foggy morning as tradition as got photos. (always seems foggy around Xmas and NY)

View attachment 91979
Yes...another year eh :^) Here we are...a really great pic you took there and speaks volumes about what we enjoy :^)

I've surmised this notion in previous threads; there are 144 needle bearings installed in most engines across many years. That is bucket loads (get the joke :^) of needle bearings - times however many engines are on the road over many years.

My take on lifter failure root cause are the needle bearings themselves. Their integrity - which means that every single last one of them - have been produced to fully meet the Engineering Specifications and Manufacturing Standards - is critical.

We'll never know whether a contract supplier used a batch of poor / improper blend of high chromium steel to produce them - or did not properly harden them - where all the suspect units were then mixed with good units that were then forwarded to another contractor for assembly. These are just two variables that can really create problems over many platforms and over many years. Then there are some needle bearings that indeed would have internal flaws at the molecular level - so again its just a matter of time before that single unit is compromised while under load and results a cascading failure event.

Given the critical nature of similar componentry used throughout the aerospace industry - given what's on the line - they are literally inspected down to the molecular level to weed them out. This is not done with GEN III lifter needle bearings and if it is - its on a (large) batch basis of a set percentage sampling process.

All the great advantages of a roller cam / lifter system are well-known - no point going into. I do not believe lobe integrity or lifter roller (materials) integrity are factors here. The actual dynamic loading - even at high rpm is a relative cakewalk at the lobe / roller interfaces. At low rpm there may indeed be loading that is actually more stressful. A good analogy here would be coil packs that, while at idle, are experiencing more electrical stress (excessive dwell --> heat buildup) than at higher rpm.

Lack of lubrication is a worthy root-cause scenario - given the number of police vehicle failures versus everything else.

One thing for-sure is the ongoing and 100% ridiculous(!) notion that oil viscosity has any role whatsoever. I marvel at those on other forums who have gone down a baseless and dumbass rabbit hole that somehow oil viscosity is a mitigating factor that is contributing to a / any lifter failure mode. Pure / unadulterated stupidity and unfortunately the BULLSH!T that sucks good folks into levels of anxiety that then forces(!) them into buying specific brands of oil, using viscosities that do not meet the OEM recommendations, adding f'n oil additives (what a total hoodwink across the industry - oil additives) and adhering to service intervals that meet some sort of emotional level of well-being. Truly disgusting and 100% based on anecdotal BS.

FYI; oil viscosity dictates the rate that oil moves across bearing interfaces in order to meet projected film strength and remove(!) thermal energy as a direct result of the load per unit area and time - at a specific clearance. This is not rocket science and is well-understood by the Engineers who designed those clearances in the first place.

Happy New Year folks...
 

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Chrysler did go from a 5w20 oil recommendation to a 0w40.
It, in this case the 06' thru 08' 6.1 liter SRT8, did not "go" anywhere. It was was introduced with the 0W40 recommendation.

The 5W20 remains for the 5.7 liter version.
 
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· Charger Pursuit
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According to this guy, @ 7:20-7:50 it is both Lack of lubrication and everything else:
And there are videos of people showing how earth is flat.


That guy made it clear knows very little about the GENIII Hemi. One of the worst offending clickbait BS videos to date.
 

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Lack of lubrication is a worthy root-cause scenario - given the number of police vehicle failures versus everything else.
Not really. Fleet vehicles see accelerated wear. And alot of idle time. And even then the civilian cars with same lifter failures do not even come close to the same amount of said idle time.

This is one of those not really supported by statistical data myths. If it were strictly lack of lube at idle then Fleet would have failures much sooner in line with civilian counterparts.
 

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You are right, you tube has a lot of unverified content, but I am on my second set of rockers and lifters on the 3.6, and I don’t know anything about the Hemi. You guys are blessed with the knowhow, and recognize the idea that Earth is not flat because you can go up 50.000 feet of knowledge and observer the curved horizon, while a guy like me and many other ordinary consumers, when it comes to lifter failure, earth around us still appear to be flat and stationary, I am reading this topic here trying to make sense of it now after two of the same failures and paid out of pocket for both. The first time, blame was on defected rockers on cylinder 3, dealer replaced all with modified/upgraded parts; then I was blindsided by the second failure which forced me to search for a logical answer hence Simon’s notion Lack of lubrication is a worthy root-cause scenario, but I guess I will never know.
 

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You are right, you tube has a lot of unverified content, but I am on my second set of rockers and lifters on the 3.6, and I don’t know anything about the Hemi. You guys are blessed with the knowhow, and recognize the idea that Earth is not flat because you can go up 50.000 feet of knowledge and observer the curved horizon, while a guy like me and many other ordinary consumers, when it comes to lifter failure, earth around us still appear to be flat and stationary, I am reading this topic here trying to make sense of it now after two of the same failures and paid out of pocket for both. The first time, blame was on defected rockers on cylinder 3, dealer replaced all with modified/upgraded parts; then I was blindsided by the second failure which forced me to search for a logical answer hence Simon’s notion Lack of lubrication is a worthy root-cause scenario, but I guess I will never know.
So, let me get this right.

You are saying that a video of a guy who thinks crank splash is a form of lubrication on gen III hemi, a V8, also holds the key for issues the 3.6 V6? And that somehow if this was a design flaw across the whole board its only a miracle that only a small pool of engines versus the many produce suffer it from said design flaw, while leaving rest okay.

Sure Thing.
 
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No I haven't said anything other than I paid twice for lifters failure. I started by saying, I don't know anything about the Hemi, and ended the post by saying I'll never know. I repeat : I am sharing my thoughts on this topic here trying to make sense of it now after two of the same failures .
For me what the video guy, yourself, and/or Simon = source of good to know information, So was it lack of lubrication? Is it design flow? After reading 190 posts, I still don't know....
 

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No I haven't said anything other than I paid twice for lifters failure. I started by saying, I don't know anything about the Hemi, and ended the post by saying I'll never know. I repeat : I am sharing my thoughts on this topic here trying to make sense of it now after two of the same failures .
For me what the video guy, yourself, and/or Simon = source of good to know information, So was it lack of lubrication? Is it design flow? After reading 190 posts, I still don't know....
Bad parts is a more fitment of an answer than an overall design issue. Seeing parts were superceded with new revisions is good indication it.
 

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I was worried about the cam-lifter issues initially, but after reviewing the data, I'm no longer worried about this issue - too many owners with high mileage, trouble free motors.

I do read these posts with a grain of salt, especially those with weird catastrophic failures that seem to be a strange conglomeration of individual issues listed across a wide variety of threads.

I'm not one to tolerate foolishness.
 

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According to this guy, @ 7:20-7:50 it is both Lack of lubrication and everything else:
And there are videos of people showing how earth is flat.


That guy made it clear knows very little about the GENIII Hemi. One of the worst offending clickbait BS videos to date.

Good day Bill and HNY my friend, hope you and yours are well :^)

Yes, that video was forwarded to me shortly after release. It was quickly debunked as the author elected to think of the GEN III in terms of a typical Chevy SB - which is simply not the case. Let's be clear; it would be irresponsible for the Chrysler Engineers to design an engine with needle roller assemblies that relied on crankshaft oil whipping / splash to ensure(!) proper lubrication. Add to this the structure casted into the block precludes this.

You are right, you tube has a lot of unverified content, but I am on my second set of rockers and lifters on the 3.6, and I don’t know anything about the Hemi. You guys are blessed with the knowhow, and recognize the idea that Earth is not flat because you can go up 50.000 feet of knowledge and observer the curved horizon, while a guy like me and many other ordinary consumers, when it comes to lifter failure, earth around us still appear to be flat and stationary, I am reading this topic here trying to make sense of it now after two of the same failures and paid out of pocket for both. The first time, blame was on defected rockers on cylinder 3, dealer replaced all with modified/upgraded parts; then I was blindsided by the second failure which forced me to search for a logical answer hence Simon’s notion Lack of lubrication is a worthy root-cause scenario, but I guess I will never know.

Although I've heard of upper valvetrain issues with the V6 - it not on my radar and would be of no relation to the V8 HEMI :^)


Not really. Fleet vehicles see accelerated wear. And alot of idle time. And even then the civilian cars with same lifter failures do not even come close to the same amount of said idle time.

This is one of those not really supported by statistical data myths. If it were strictly lack of lube at idle then Fleet would have failures much sooner in line with civilian counterparts.

Note: I lobbed the idea of an oiling issue over the wall as a lost leader - curious to see who out there still believes it is :^)


I was worried about the cam-lifter issues initially, but after reviewing the data, I'm no longer worried about this issue - too many owners with high mileage, trouble free motors.

I do read these posts with a grain of salt, especially those with weird catastrophic failures that seem to be a strange conglomeration of individual issues listed across a wide variety of threads.

I'm not one to tolerate foolishness.

And rightly so Curious Joe...

At times, it can be difficult to wade through the outright / negative biases towards the OEM, Dealerships - and somehow immediately gift supposed "online experts" so much credence that the "sky is falling"...it takes significant Critical Thinking to come to a reasonable conclusion.

QED
 

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I talked to a mechanic at the Dodge dealer when I got my tank replaced. According to him they see much more frequent lifter failures in police cars than private owners.
Not surprising as most pvt owners whonget the failure are out of the warrenty period and dont want to pay skyhigh prices so they go toer shops, where as alot of fleets use dealers for warranties during to use of the equipment.

So this is not a usable data point for anything.

And everyone treats Dodge dealer people as if they ate the all knowing. Yet if you ask them about enabling srt pages on a 2011, or various other swap question they either do not know, or not capable.
 

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Ok, I’m getting my 6.1 back together with new cam, new Mopar lifters, and new HV oil pump… #5 cyl had a total failure of one lifter roller and the other one next to it was still spinning but it had waaay to much play in the needle bearings so it was on the way out…. All the other lifters looked excellent….. I bought this car with a bad tick of course and the price was right for someone like me who can do the work….. I’m also going to get custom pushrods as I did get my heads shaved a little and using a .040 thick head gasket and this allows me to get perfect preload. I also think that the redesign of the roller bearings in the lifters to a larger size will solve these issues hopefully…. I bet their was some bad metal used in the previous design and let a dollars worth of **** metal ruin thousands of good engines…. I also have an 09 Gr Cherokee 5.7 that’s over 150K miles and it runs great…. I bought it new and put a tune on it and deleted the MDS…. Regular oil changes and it’s been good……. I wonder if I could send some of the failed needle bearings out some where and have them Rockwell tested for hardness?
 

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Discussion Starter · #200 ·
Ok, I’m getting my 6.1 back together with new cam, new Mopar lifters, and new HV oil pump… #5 cyl had a total failure of one lifter roller and the other one next to it was still spinning but it had waaay to much play in the needle bearings so it was on the way out…. All the other lifters looked excellent….. I bought this car with a bad tick of course and the price was right for someone like me who can do the work….. I’m also going to get custom pushrods as I did get my heads shaved a little and using a .040 thick head gasket and this allows me to get perfect preload. I also think that the redesign of the roller bearings in the lifters to a larger size will solve these issues hopefully…. I bet their was some bad metal used in the previous design and let a dollars worth of **** metal ruin thousands of good engines…. I also have an 09 Gr Cherokee 5.7 that’s over 150K miles and it runs great…. I bought it new and put a tune on it and deleted the MDS…. Regular oil changes and it’s been good……. I wonder if I could send some of the failed needle bearings out some where and have them Rockwell tested for hardness?
A lot of custom knife makers have the ability to test the hardness for obvious reasons. Check and see if you have any around you.

Also, just to let you know, I had that exact failure a few times and am beginning to suspect weak valve springs. I’m hoping to get 10 mins this next week, take mine out and have them tested. Ill
report back here with the findings. In your case it sounds like you have the spring issue covered.
 
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