[MADDOG11]

Just trying to gauge some interest in a possible class action law suit against Chrysler/Dodge/JEEP for premature lifter failure. This is my 4th set going into this engine and the lifter that fails is ALWAYS the same one. The funny thing is that almost everyone of my customers who have had the same failure is in the exact same location as all of mine!!! I always use 0w-40 full syn, MOPAR filters, always done on or before 5k miles and has never gone low! This has to be something in the realm of a design flaw (ie excessive separation between cam and crank which is causing cam/lifters to be starved of oil at idle, etc). Anyway, anyone else tired of this???

 

[MADDOG11]

Have They all been the same part number for the lifters?

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All lifters have been replaced in sets of the same parts numbers.

1st set were the originals lasted approx 110k, second set were MOPAR that lasted about 18k miles, 3rd set were aftermarket and cam was replaced with MOPAR and lasted approx 58000 miles. The set going in will be a kit from Crower with will include lifters, cam and pushrods.

 

[MADDOG11]

A lawsuit would be futile; your evidence overwhelmingly points to something other than the lifters being root cause.

Why would you continue to replace lifters - when the evidence (four failures @ #5 hole - continued R&R expecting a different result) very plainly points to something else?

Like what? As I stated in my first comment, 90% of my customers that have had lifter failures have the intake lifter fail on the #5 cyl! So whatever it is, it's not just mine or my imagination!

Also, after working in dealership service departments over the last 20 years, I've seen some really crazy things end up with "extensions of warranty" when people scream loud enough! ESPECIALLY Chrysler!!!

 

[MADDOG11]

Why would you post this and not provide more details like the Same location.

Sorry, #5 cyl and the intake lifter.

 

[MADDOG11]

To be fair, he did. 2nd and 3rd sentences:

I'm with Simon though.. that points not to a lifter defect but some other root cause. If the lifters were defective we'd see failures in varying locations, IMO.

Richard

OK, I'll bite. Like what???

 

[MADDOG11]

Thanks, The famous Cyl #5. I was afraid of that. I have read of this cylinder lifters failures a lot.

On his in particular, is he using the same OE parts or..........

Yup and the original lifter lasted the longest (110k). However the second set were MOPAR replacement with only lasted 18K. Going with a complete kit from Crower this time. Hoping the high volume oil pump I'm installing this time will do the trick.

 

[MADDOG11]

Any pics of the cam and lifter damage? What block is it?

No yet but hopefully by tomorrow. Block is a 6.1l based 6.4l from Arrington.

 

[MADDOG11]

With that high of mileage, you can't seriously expect Chrysler to do something. It's well out of warranty, and who knows what had been done to it. Was the block properly cleaned before the new lifters were installed? There's no way to prove anything, so Chrysler will tell you to get lost.

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My logic for Chrsler being held liable for faulty engineering in the first place which GUARANTEES a parts failure at some time. Think of like when Ford was sued for the spark plugs breaking in the 05-09 5.4l REGARDLESS of the mileage. Ford redesigned the plugs to prevent it from happening and refunded millions upon millions to customers who paid to have the broken plugs removed and/or engine repairs associated with the broken plugs!

The proof is from the multiple failures I've personally had on the intake lifter on the #5 cylCouple that with the hundreds I've personally seen on others vehicles and the greater % of them being on the #5 cyl intake lifter and MILLIONS of other lifter failures on the Gen 3 Hemi world wide and there's the proof.

When the engine was received by me it was freshly built, was still wrapped in plastic and all lifted bores were cleaned out by me before the lifters and heads were installed. Highly unlikely that 3 lifter failures in the same location on my engine along with the hundreds I've personally seen and the millions of others that have had lifter failures world wide has anything to do with contamination unless all engines were contaminated from the factory. In which case it go back on the manufacturer for contamination the engines upon the initial build of the engines.

 

[MADDOG11]

What is the probability (or odds) of a second lifter, no matter the manufacturer, failing in the same location. What is the probability (or odds) of a 3rd lifter - now out of a total of 48 units - failing in the same location?

The lifters are a manifestation of a root cause...not thee root cause.

I ageree! Which points back to a engineering issue like the cam and crank separation are is too far which is not allowing the crank to sling enough oil onto the cam and lifters at idle. For additional proof I offer the hundreds I've personally dealt with for the EXACT SAME FAILURE in the exact same position. In those hundreds I've dealt with I would guess at least 70-80 failures in the exact same location of police and state trooper vehicles well within warranty. Also, many of them have had multiple failures on the same vehicle out of warranty which Chrysler has repaired at no charge! Therefore this has to be an engineering problem from the beginning. Otherwise how do you explain other engines that use the same type of lifters that never experience this failure with the only rear difference being the crank and cam are much closer together?

 

[MADDOG11]

Too many unknowns. I have an 06 6.1 with over 260K kms and as far as I know, the engine has never been apart. I don't burn or leak any oil. I have replaced oil pump though as part of timing chain maintenance at 140K kms. Generally, not as many issues with the 6.1 but the issue seems to be more common with the 392. Prolly because less 6.1's out there. In your first post, you mention "almost all" of your clients and then you mention "90% of my customers". What is the actual # of clients you are talking about here? Are we talking 5, 20, 75, 175? What is mileage in each case? Service history of vehicle? oil/filter used? duration between oil changes? Unless you document in detail each instance and the entire service and use background for each vehicle, your submission to FCA is too general for them to consider. If you're serious, you should be able to launch a class action on your own and your lawyers will advertise to acquire info on owners who have experienced the same issue.

Being that I've been writing service for 30+ years and specifically Chrysler for approx 10 of those years I would guess the number of lifter failures on 5.7 and 6.1 has to be in the hundreds. Of those hundreds I'd say 90% of them have been the #5 cyl intake lifter. Most of those if not all have been properly maintained, at least as far as oil changes go. Strangely I've never had a sludged up hemi. Numerous ones have failed under basic warranty and even more have failed under powertrain warranty. As far as getting other vehicle specific details that would be for people to join a lawsuit (class action). The lawyers would then ask said litigants for their paperwork (maintenance, failures and repairs) then determine if each litigant has a case. I've seen this happen many times with Ford, Chevy, Chrysler, etc and this is the exact way they all start. The manufactures are not just gonna come out and admit they screwed up. They have to be forced to take responsibility/action.

 

[MADDOG11]

I'm with Simon. The chances of the lifter being the actual issue are slim to none, or they'd be failing in other locations.

If your right front tire wears out in 1000 miles while the rest last 20k and you've replace the tire 5 times, is it really the fault of the tire? No, there's another issue causing the tire to wear out faster. Same thing with the lifters

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Agreed! Is it an alignment or something like the engine cradle was misaligned from the factory as which was the case when the LX first came out?!? If it's a alignment issue because the customer was curb surfing it's on the customer at that point. However, if it's a misaligned engine cradle from the initial build then that's on the manufacturer!

 

[MADDOG11]

Agreed; the fact is there are relatively few failures versus just how many (hundreds of thousands of) engines there are out there operating normally. The problem is the Internet has the (very) bad habit of focusing and then magnifying(!) any and all failures - then crossing a baseless empathy bridge into "mass failure" mode and heading down various rabbit holes. The poster child for this is on the RAM forum where people are drinking their own and everyone else's bath water that somehow engine oil is a root cause that has generated thousands(!) of 100% subjective (zero evidence-based) posts.

Anyone who begins reading that thread - just like here - who buys into the rhetoric - begins the needless anxiety / hand-wringing process of needlessly worrying about their perfectly serviceable engine. It serves no one - except those who need to support their own (baseless / subjective) spin cycles (excellent candidate for a psychological case study of anchoring bias, confirmation / in-group biases, backfire effect).

For the OP; like BryGuy, I too am now curious as to who you are, who your clients are, what "almost all" actually means, what 90% means and the proof to back these statements up.

Being that I've been a Chrysler service advisor for the last 10 years, I would normally agree. I'm constantly hearing about "a forum said EVERYONE of these cars has this failure or that failure" or "my neighbors nest friends cousins uncle said this or that is what's wrong with my vehicle and it should be FREE!!!" Meanwhile I'll see one or two of the specific failure the customer is speaking of. However, in this case again, I've personally dealt with hundreds of lifter failures on 5.7 and 6.1 hemis in 10 years and, as stated before, I would guess 90% of those have had the same failure (#5 cyl intake lifter).

 

[MADDOG11]

I agree completely. I've heard about the dropped valve seats in the 5.7 Hemi. I've heard rumors it's caused by overheating, you name it. My Magnum overheated the day I drove it home. I drove it about two hours, I think it topped out at about 240. I have since put almost 30k on it, no issues. I was seriously concerned at first, hearing so the horror stories, but then decided to enjoy my car. If it were to break, I'd deal with it then. I hate how everyone gets so paranoid about something with a very small chance of occuring, and then tries to blame the failure of a 100k+ mile engine on the manufacturer.

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Just to be clear I'm as far from a typical customer who thinks EVERYTHING that goes wrong with their car should be a recall or under warranty as you cam get!

As far as your valve seat question, yea I've seen more than my fair share of those going right through the top of a piston. And yes it has to with the engine being extremely overheated and the valve being made of dissimilar metal than the head. This causes the seat and the head heat and cool at different rates which often allows the seat to loosen and eventually fall out of the head. However, this is due to customer abuse (ie continued operation of an overheating engine) which is well within their contol!

 

[MADDOG11]

Good stuff, heh, I try and not think about it but get sucked in occasionally having a supercharger on a 132k mile engine I worry but still enjoy.

I read an engineers article and still no-one has the absolute answer but he touched on the oil type, and mentioned if using a thicker viscosity it could limit some of the penetration traits.

Anyways, My 13 R/T was a one owner by an elderly couple that was and still smelled like new w/67k miles with the dealership records with 4k mile oil changes. Heh his wife called it "His Baby" an said it had never been in the rain.

Then I get it. Boost it, 4k Mobil1 5w20 changes, MDS off, fingers crossed and enjoy.

I agree 100% I drive mine the way it's meant to be driven but I always take care of it which is one of the reasons I keep my cars for so long, as well as I HATE car payments and it's usually cheaper to repair them than it is to buy a new one every 3 years! All of these reasons have allowed me to have many other nice things rather than just a new car every couple of years, saddled with ridiculous payments, forced to have full coverage insurance, maintenance, repairs, etc, etc, etc

 

[MADDOG11]

When I say "millions" I'm referring to world wide, not at the dealership I work at. Due to the production numbers of the Gen 3 Hemi since beginning in 2003 it would not surprise me if it has run into the millions of lifter failures (in general) with a high percentage of those being on the #5 cyl intake lifter!

 

[MADDOG11]

Millions... That's quite the jump. That implies that every single engine Chrysler built has had a failure... Which is blatantly false.

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Actually the Gen 3 hemis have production numbers of approx 3.9 million to date. So just going off the percentages of lifter failures I have personally seen in the last 10 years of working in a Chrysler/JEEP service dept the "millions" statement is probably a bit long. However, how many 5.4L Ford engines were damaged by spark plugs CAUSED BY CUSTOMER NEGLECT (ie leaving the plugs in for too long)? Answer: a very small percentage. None the less Ford made it right because enough people made some noise. That's the whole point I'm trying to make here.

 

[MADDOG11]

Millions??

Utter bullsh!t.

Realize(!) - there are multiple Techs on here from across the continent. I'm on a first name basis with Techs / Service Managers / Parts People / Parts Managers across three Dealership in my city alone. They laughed today, when I mentioned your numbers.

Precisely.

You keep missing the obvious; neither the camshaft nor the lifters - even under any sort of recognizable / rigorous / repeatable investigation - would fail to find the lifters / camshaft as root cause. Instead of grasping at Internet innuendo (for example - counterweight splash lubrication) and bone up how these particular lifters function, where lubrication comes from (hint; two sources).

As far as you personally "dealing" directly with "100's" this issue; which Dealership are you employed at?


I call bullsh!t on your assertion you have personally dealt with this issue in the numbers you state - especially(!) pre-08' engines. Show us the proof - real numbers with root cause and stats - not just (your) hearsay.


Where's the proof to back up your number of failures (04'-08' 5.7 / 6.1 / Eagle 5.7 / Apache 6.4)?

Sorry you feel that way. However, I'm speaking from my own, not what others have told me, experience!

I'm well aware of how the oiling system works on these engines and it's inadequate for the application.

In the past I was a service advisor for 2 years at MedVed Chrysler/JEEP in Denver, later I became the service manager at Denver JEEP for 3.5 years and for the last 4.5 years I've been a service advisor at a Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep dealer in Houston.

All stated in previous responses. Look, once again I'm not a novice at this and do it on the weekend kinda thing. I do this for a living, pay for my family, life and I'm very good at what I do. Hence why I've done this, in one way or another, for over 30 years. I'm not here to get **** on nor am I just make this **** up because I'm mad at Chrysler and want someone else to pay for my repairs which have been caused by my neglect! Chrysler ****ed up when the designed the oiling system on these engines!!!

 

[MADDOG11]

... But we aren't talking about Ford here. Last I saw this thread was intended to be about lifter failures in the Hemi. It's a completely different animal. You're comparing apples to oranges. And every post I see from you loses your credibility more and more...

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You're missing the point I'm attempting to make here. What I'm saying is Ford technically screwed up when they the designed the spark plugs on the 05-09 5.4L and they made it right. Takata screwed up on the air bags and they made it right. Chevy screwed up on their dash panels on pickups and they made it right. Chrysler screwed up on the 3.6L which has led to........CAM FAILURES and drivers side cyl head failures! Therefore they extended the warranty on the cyl heads! Chrysler needs to step up and correct the oiling system on the hemis.

 

[MADDOG11]

Me too; here at LXF, we make a concerted effort to deal in facts that can be verified.

I understand and agree and these are facts that can be verified! That's the idea of getting in touch with a lawyer, give them the information from as many people that have had this same type of failure and allow them to determine if the case has merit or not. I'm not asking anyone to pony up the dough. Most often lawyers take cases like this on a contingency. Hell, I was gonna put up the initial consultation fee, if there is any, and go from there. I mean, if you've had this failure and could make Chrysler reimburse you for those repairs and/or have the problem fixed wouldn't it be worth your time? I mean remember the stalling issue caused by the sticking vent valve in the fuel tank that they extended the warranty on the fuel tank indefinitely? And that failure was miniscule compared to the lifter failures! How do you think that was started?

 

[MADDOG11]

Wild-assed guess: enough complaints to the NHTSA got them looking into it, and the warranty extended on the fuel tanks, because it's literally a safety issue. Cars were stalling while moving in traffic.

Richard

I'm well aware as mine was one of them and have probably with a whole 3 or 4 others out of the thousands of them that I've dealt with over the years! Do the percentages on that and you'll see the lifters are a far more prevalent issue causing far more damage! Again, this is a design flaw that Chrysler needs to address as it is STILL happening because the basic architecture of the engine nor the oiling system has been addressed!