[CE9311]

I love it when service writers are all sudden master mechanics. Selling work is the same as doing the work!


Also note, if there was a actual flaw in the design then every hemi would have it.

I feel it is either lifter issue, or because of the No 5 cylinder often happening it may be a cast production time line of blocks.

I repaired mine. I'll see if she dies again and see.

 

[CE9311]

As I stated previously, I'm hardly a novice who thinks everything should be warrantied FOREVER!!! Before working in numerous dealership service dept I was a shop owner in Denver where my shop built rock crawlers (before it was popular) from the ground up! At which time I possessed 7 of 9 ASE certifications, including A1! However, that was a ways back! To top that off I've been conversing with my Chrysler rep, our engine shop as well as 3 of my heavy line techs who have a combined experience of about 47 years with Chrysler! So once again, I'm not making this up out of whole cloth!

ASE cert don't mean much. If you can read, and past a test afterwards you can get them. After getting one I felt they were useless with the basic questions I was given.

Congrats on a Rockcrawler shop. I am sure you guys built so many Hemi engines out there. Means little here. I can tell you I've installed a Vintage Radial engine, built several vintage jeep and dodge engines. And onxce Started and ran a 1450hp 9 Cylinder Wright Cyclone 1820 engine (best day ever honestly) but that does not mean jack when it comes to the hemi. (even though tech the Radial has a truer hemi head sorta speak than the hemi engine.

Fact is, the amount of hemis with issues vs total production means nothing major will ever come of it. As stated, if it were a design issue then all hemis would have it. Which they don't.

It would boil down to parts, or cast defect within a generational period. The data supports this more than anything else.

Oh, and I've done a set of lifters and cam on my 11 5.7. 30K miles later and still running fine.

 

[CE9311]

What cert did you get?

And wouldnt a part defect like that then call for a recall?

ASE cert does not matter. been long expired and like alot of cert / degree is not worth the price that was paid for it.

You would think a defect would make it a recall, but only if it is proven, and on a large enough scale. Seeing that no one has viable proof of an actual root cause, and not enough numbers it can, and has been dismissed for such an action. As I said, Data supports those two things but does not honestly mean it actually is those two things.

 

[CE9311]

I'm not trying to pat myself in the back or say that I know everything when I refer to being a former shop owner who also helped build rockcrawlers in the past! Not am I saying that I'm a book of all knowledge when comes to everything about cars! However, I'm attempting to point out I'm not just a novice, as you attempted to imply when you said, "I love when service advisors......". I've taken apart and repaired more than my fair share of vehicle! So stop attempting to imply I don't know my ass from a hole in the ground!

Next, how many of these lifter failures do you see in you typical month at work on the Gen 3 hemi? I, myself, write up between 7-8 per month with lifter failure and about 90% of them have the #5 intake lifter that has failed! That's where I'm getting my information from. How about you?

Lastly, if it's as you said a "parts or cast defect", did I cast the engine block or build the lifters? If I didn't than the people who incorrectly engineered the design are at fault, NOT ME! Therefore Chrysler should fix it! Also, if I'm so far off on my idea of oil starvation at idle causing the lifter failures why do I see a crazy number of cop/state trooper vehicles, which are constantly idling, knocking out lifters before 30k miles and then failing again 30k miles later?

You implied by the way you listed all your stuff that rest of us didn't have any weight on the subject. I just showcased that does not matter.

I have no way of knowing what you write up per month in failures. I do know how service writers operate though. They are salesmen. And stretching the truth, and making things worse than they appear to sale a job is the name of the game for them. And if you did write up 8 per month, which is two per week, which sounds dubious. But hey I have no proof it is. Just like I would say you have no proof saying it is.

A cast defect would not be a deign issue. It would be a casting defect in the actual manufacturing process. There is a difference between that and a design issue. If it were strictly a Design issue than every, single READ THIS Every single HEMI would have the failing parts.

I was extremely aggravated by my cam and lifter failure. I researched to see if anything were to be done about it and no. There isn't.

So unless your ASE certified rockcrawling shop owning now service writing for 50+ years with 80 Top certed worlds best factory trained nasa approved technicians and actually pinpoint with in falibaly accuracy the root cause of the needline bears wearing the lifter roller bearing pin out then you are excatly in the same boat as the rest of us.

If idling was the cause, then I guess the ram owners who have a thread with a count:

Updated List year ago I believe

2009: 10
2010: 8
2011: 41
2012: 25
2013: 11
2014: 8
2015: 4
2016: -
2017: -
2018: -
Total: 107

I guess all these civilian owners just been idling around all day like cop cars huh?

 

[CE9311]

Great! Well you seem to know so much about the issue, why don't you tell me what the issue is thereby allowing me to take care of it?!? I mean obviously my knowledge of working with these vehicles/engines everyday for the last 10+ years can't begin to compare with your knowledge of consulting in the world of oil and drone consultant. Please enlighten me.

I mean maybe you like either sweating your balls off tearing down an engine in the summer heat or paying someone else approx $4k to replace your cam and lifters for a failure that's BULL**** and shouldn't be happening as often as it does but most other people do!

Also as you stated, "blatantly pointed out to you that something other than the lifters / camshaft are the problem." I AGREE!! It's not the lifters nor the cam themselves!!! IT'S AN OILING ISSUE INHERANT TO THE DESIGN OF THE ENGINE AND OR OILING SYSTEM!!! If it's not then why do LS/LQ engines NOT have this same issue yet they run roller lifters? The only real difference in the basic hemi and LS/LQ lower ends architecture is where the crank and cam run in relation to each other yet the lifter failures on the LS/LQ engines is miniscule when compared to the hemi lifter failures!

Do you own stock in Chrysler or just have such an undying love for Chrysler that it has made you so blind that you can't accept that there is obviously something wrong with the oiling system of this engine? Holy ****! A little bit of logic and deductive reasoning goes a long way if you just look at the evidence that is presented! Kinda like the evidence that shows hitlery and most of the oduma administration should in prison awaiting execution for sedition and/or treason! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL! Sorry, I couldn't resist throwing that in there. LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!

You keep on with the whole its splash lubricated argument. If you had any engine sense you would know better. Once again, if it were a design flaw, every, single, READ AGAIN. EVERY HEMI would have it. They do not. Also, let me paraphrase one of my comments on another board.....

"And if you honestly think oil being slung off a crank, which would only have a few degrees of area to hit the cam every rev, would be able to stick on to the cam while it is also rotating, then somehow seep up into the lifter roller bearings that is moving up and down relative to the cam itself, than perhaps physics was not a strong point in school for you."

 

[CE9311]

Well with that logic losing 1 or 2 lbs of oil pressure at idle and at operating temp really shouldn't be an issue. Yet for some reason I've seen more than my share of destroyed engines due to that very thing! I wonder why that it.

So I'll ask you, just like did with the other, "Great! Well you seem to know so much about the issue, why don't you tell me what the issue is thereby allowing me to take care of it?!? I mean obviously my knowledge of working with these vehicles/engines everyday for the last 10+ years can't begin to compare with your knowledge as an air fuel boss and radial engine rebuilder. Please enlighten me.

Also, a failure doesn't have to be across an entire product before it's considered an issue. If that was the requirement why has Chrysler extended the warranty on 3.6L left side cyl heads for 10 years or 150000 miles when very few have this failure?

And as a side note, actually physics and chemistry were two of my best subjects which allowed me to get a full ride to William and Mary. However, in your case, logic and critical thinking were obviously not encourage nor taught wherever you attended.

When and how does oil pressure now play a role in this discussion? 1-2 lbs at curb idle? Who ever said anything about that? I am utterly lost where this has anything to do with your argument unless your just drowning and grasping at anything to stay a float. Pressure is resistance to flow. You can have pressure and no volume and vica versa. What exactly is your argument here?

Far as your words about what I have done in relation to this. Congrats. You did exactly what I did. Can't get upset on it anymore!

I do not write the rules on how a recall or TSB gets determined. All I know is your not the first, not the 100th, and not the last to get upset with mother mopar lifter failures. But no matter how hurt the butt is nothing has come from it for anything once warranty is run out. So once again, if your going to argue how they should take care of it, then you best have a pretty good idea on what the root failure cause is. And so far, I have yet to see you have any photos, Any links, or any inclination on what is happening.

Far as my logic, and critical thinking I am sure my replies, data I have shown prove where it lays. And here is the fun fact. If I am shown good data, logical failure analysis, and photos that proves me absolutely wrong I will eat my words. But in many of these arguments I find myself the only one with logical data driven ideas that connect operation theory into possible failure nodes. My opinions actually connect, make sense (even if wrong) and I supply the photos of what leads me to the conclusion.

You can't just look into a hat, write down what magical things you see and parade it around as fact when not letting anyone else look in the hat. That is not Logical, Critical Mechanical thinking. That's called Mormonism.

 

[CE9311]

Acceptable hot idle service pressure is 5psi. So...

Yeah via the book. But let's be honest. If you saw 6psi at idle you would not think oh thats well within reason.

Still. I do not see how his oil psi argument has much to deal with the crank sling deal. if 1-2 psi is the killer of an engine at idle than there was other issues.

 

[CE9311]

OH MY GOD!!! I'm not saying that oil pressure, in THIS case, has anything to do with the this failure!! I'm saying IN GENERAL lack of lubrication for whatever reason (pressure, volume, low level, etc) on ANY ENGINE will cause damage!!!

What evidence/data have you provided that states lack of lubrication doesn't cause damage to internal engine parts?? As far as MY evidence I can simply walk out into the shop and grab failed lifer after failed lifter off any of my heavyline techs tables!!! They all have the same failure!! THE ROOT CAUSE IS LACK OF LUBRICATION TO CRITICAL ENGINE COMPONENTS!!!

How about this, I'll save all the lifter failures for the next month and send images of them?!?

If you saying oil PSI is not the cause then why bring it up? Like your statement still make no sense. Why even bother saying it and not jsut state you feel its general lubrication.

Cool, go grab them lifters and with photos tel us what you think with the evidence at hand since there are so many laying around. Bowl is ready for that pudding.

Regardless , If two metals are in contact with each other under pressure, with little to no lubrication it will have Friction and Heat. Lots of heat. This type of heat will cause the metal to tinge a bit blue, purple ish and leave metal transference of the two on each other.

Okay so here is a failed Lifter. This is where it all begins. The lifter pin. Rollers eat into it, jam the roller up. What causes this is the question. However if you look at it, where the metal is worn away its clean, and not discolored from excessive heat. Which clearly shows to a degree adequate lubrication. However discoloration or coked oil on the back side of the pin can be observed. However the fact that in several thousand miles the roller never moved can be the contributing factor to this as you can find this coloration on parts that make no contact or wear when in contact with oil over time.

Here are the rollers from that lifter. Note the pitting. Every single lifter with a failed or failing wear on the pin had needle bearings looking exactly like this.

On the none failed Lifters the needle bearings and Roller pins were perfectly smooth, and no discoloration. Some of these be right next to a fail lifter.

 

[CE9311]

On a 200K plus, maybe. Above idle / under load dynamic pressure, as we know, would be much different.

Agreed; as we both read the comment - it was pointing to sling :^)

I posted an article showing how to increase service pressure to move across the bearing interface quicker (as you know - its not a volume increase).

I think I've read enough responses now (no prior research either in own back yard or on here, zero data to back up purported claims, admitted exaggerations, lack of Hemi engine operation knowledge, Strawman tactics, indignance in order to obfuscate and marginalize / insults) to realize this conversation is not going to go anywhere productive. I'm running outta steam (unless! the bullsh!tting continues - Membership deserves better)...

You would think I get really involved or, better worded invested in arguments / discussions. And honestly I do not. I find it entertaining and sometimes enlightening when the other person has good info. Sometimes I will play Devils advocate only to further understand a reasoning of a opinion.

 

[CE9311]

I would like to throw my 2 cents in:

Being a Pro mechanic I think I am entitled? maybe not lol but still I have an opinion on the Failures I seen on the internet. The design itself of the Valve train geometry is Poor! The Lifters are riding at an extreme flat angle and the lifters dont have a Large enough Oil grove in the Lifter to coat the entire bore in there full travel action.

This lifters I removed from 194K mile 5.7 show light scoring on the upper and mid sides from the lifter bore due to a Lack of oil film from being pushed into the sidewall of the lifter bore by the action of the cam.

The Roller Tip damage and Lobe damage I have seen on the internet I believe is caused by the Lack of splash oiling in the engine itself, The 6.1 uses Oil injectors to help cool the pistons this doesn't help the Lifters roller BUT it does Point to the inherant problem that the engine design does suffer from a Lack of splash oiling.
Generally splash oil is relied on in the industry for cam lobe oiling and Piston cooling and lubrication.

I am going to look into the possibility of adding the Spray tubes to the bottom of my piston bores like the 6.1 has, I am also planning on using Crower lifters that have a Larger oil grove for the lifter bore and have also been EDM drilled to oil the Roller tip.
High Performance Hydraulic Roller Lifters Mopar Hemi 5.7L & 6.1L with Edm - Lifters

Another thought was to eliminate the the Oil pan seal Windage tray that acts like a Pan cover to try to allow more oil to splash into the Crank shaft to try to throw more oil around, one more idea that I plan to do is add a Higher pressure and higher volume oil pump to try to increase oil flow pushed out of bearing surfaces.

Generally increasing splash oil is a Bad thing in most any engine let alone a Hi performance engine but in my case I am building a Low RPM engine that will see more low rpm off road miles than Hiway miles increasing splash oiling would be a Good thing Let the Oil control rings do there job.

As far as a Class action lawsuit goes good luck! I remember many of us who Bought a 2006 VW TDI diesels tried and lost, The BRM 1.9 has Bad cam design flaw with extreme cam lobe angles which cause it to eat Cam and liters every 100K miles, Its just a fact of life VW TDI owners live with and just plan to replace the Cam every 100K miles when its time for a Belt change any more.
I tried a expensive Hardened Chrome plated cam in the engine it still ate it!
I have 300K+ miles on it now and I am going on my third cam! The Head is off at machine shop being rebuilt now.
I get 41 mpg with it @ 80mph with the AC going up a 5500' 6% grade without slowing down so I am not complaining much, over all it is still a reliable 100K mile car.

Piston coolers on a higher HP block is a design tattle tale of bad design? Seriously? That is a absolute BS argument. Oil squirters for piston cooling been used on many engines and have no bearing on cam lubrication. Shoot even the Willys L134 Flat head had oiling holes in the rods that shot oil on to the piston for oiling. But here is a shocker for ya. When you build the engine those holes have to point AWAY from the cam.

 

[CE9311]

Crower roller lifter showing drilled oil passage from Oil gallery to the roller tip. Click on the "redirect"to Crower home page.

Redirect Notice

Mad Dog said "Something else I noticed from the image my tech sent me of the lifters is the 11 to present have an oiling hole in the lifter oiling groove that the 05-10 lifters do not. Also the lifter roller tip is larger on the 11 to present lifters, as I stated previously. Other than that they pretty much are the same and will interchange with the other."

The Oil grove is on Updated newer design lifters by Chrysler I knew about this, BUT I did not know about the increased size of Roller tip????
This a game changer! Having the oil Grove and an Increased size on Roller tip has more advantages than just the drilled passage that Crower provides. I may have to rethink my Lifter choice! for my rebuild ?????

So went look through the catalog that photo came from instead of being just an idiot who looks for a fancy photo with no atual research. Surprise. They are not for the gen III hemi, so completely MOOT point unless you can find them with that option.

I'll wait to see what you dig up.

 

[CE9311]

I was just using lack oil pressure/volume as an example. Loss of either one will cause damage to any engine. That's all I was trying to say.

As far as your images of the roller pins they indicate that either unfiltered oil was present for an extended period, water contamination and/or the rollers were either incorrectly harder enough or were overheated which caused them to lose their hardness. I see the same kinda damage on ring and pinion bearing all the time and almost always the fluid hasn't been changed EVER or water has gotten into the diff casting the brgs to rust then pit. Also, I use to see the same damage on the cams and cranks at Chevrolet on the 4.8, 5.3 and 6.0 engines. I still believe those failures had something to do with the oil life reminder system showing 90% life left and the oil was last changed 10k miles prior. But that's just my opinion and have nothing to back it up other than prior to that stupid system I never saw that failure.

Still make no sense dude. Un filtered oil? Like serious? Oil has no choice but get filtered in a full flow design. These are not ring and pinions. There is no indication of major heat on the pin or bearings. Jesus you are a Service write for sure.

 

[CE9311]

Unfilterd oil when the filter becomes restricted and bypasses. Then unfiltered oil carrying debris and sediment end up getting between rotating assemblies (BEARINGS ROTATE) and damages the surfaces!

Yup been an advisor, service Mgr and shop owner for 30+ years. Been through lots of training ( might be a good idea for you to take some) and made lots of money off of people who always think they're smarter than everyone else!

I have never been in a situation where an oil filter would bypass oil. I routinely cut my filters open to inspect and never had sludge or debris to cause this. I am try to buy quality products to ensure good filtration. I am so use to working/rebuilding vintage engines with oil filtration that is partial filtering. Still, your argument holds no water as the other lifters have no indications of water or non filtered oil as you call it. If it were that issue everything would have the issue not just one specific area.

You keep citing all these years of knowledge and shop ownership and nasa approved underwear, yet you have not brought anything to the lifter failure table that is new, logical, or seemingly going anywhere. This here will also be my last post involving you. Only an idiot will stump his toe against the rock so many times without either walking around it or moving the rock.

I'm going to find a trail with smarter rocks.

 

[CE9311]

CE9311

I am a FEDERALLY Certified A&P mechanic with over 35 years of engine building experience, When I say something you might want to listen.
I am no weekend warrior wanna be Hack!

That Pic is of a different lifter yes but they do have EDM drilled lifters for the Hemi Read the full description. The drilled passage is not shown in there advertisement that's why I posted the other picture.

High Performance Hydraulic Roller Lifters Mopar Hemi 5.7L & 6.1L with Edm

Chrysler designed the little engine to last 100K miles for there warranty and on average most all that are cared for properly and are not abused survive that expectation.
Do all survive ? NO!

Last reply to you.

You can say you have all the Certs you want. Does not matter. I'm a NASA astronaut! who cares! I don't have to listen to you no more than anyone else. Your last page or spew thinking splash lube is the key showcases enough for me.

Not going to bother explaining the whole splash lube deal again. Have fun with the other guy. Combined together I am sure you too can prove everything that has already been shown.

Those lifters may work. They may not. Only time could tell. I have not read ANY reviews any any of the forums about them.

Also, find it funny you just joined the forums, and your posts are all here. Hadn't seen you on any other forums. Seems kinda suspicious......

 

[CE9311]

Wait a min! YOU don't know that most modern oil filters are built to bypass in the event they become restricted due to whatever reason thus allowing oil to still flow through the engine? Well then it just can't be then I guess because if you don't know about it, it obviously doesn't exist , RIGHT!?! Besides oil flow to critical engine parts isn't that important, RIGHT!?!

I said I had never been in a situation where the bypass was used. Didn't said I didn't know about it. Reading comprehension key here. I can cite all the oil changes and various engines and how I have never seen one so messed up to have needed to by bypassed etc etc but it is pointless.

On top of that, then maybe you can explain all of the cam and crank failures I saw while at GM of the 4.8L, 5.3L and 6.0L that all had pitted lobes but only when oil changes were 10-15k miles apart because customers and all were going by the oil life reminder system?!?

I can't explain anything on GM. I have little to no history on it beyond older small blocks. However this isn't a GM forum so why keep bring it up? Unless GM sneaked in some faulty hemis made by them into our cars to try and undermind Dodges plan on horsepower wars (which would be a good conspiracy theory) what goes on in GM world has a very very small fraction to do with anything here. I am sure if this was a huge issue you would have no problem finding countless threads on forums on it.

As far as, "bringing nothing new to the table", REALLY? Is that why I was told that the lifters I "have in the bucket are the EXACT same" as the ones I was stating I was gonna pull from the 19 Hellcat engine? Yea there identical other than the larger roller (which is what I said in the first place) and the addition of an oiling hole in the oil groove of the lifter body itself! Other than those 2 differences they're exactly the same.

Perhaps this is my fault where I didn't know your car was a 2006. I have not seen many forum reports of Pre-Eagle engines suffering from lifter failures. Now I know you have hard time understanding what I am saying so let me be clear. I am not saying does not happen. But online statistics showcase lifters issues being more of an 10+ issue not 08 and older issue. No surprised lifters have changed. Once again you thought hellcat lifters were different from all others. Been told and shown they are not. Does not matter what they are going in. Super simple fact. Hellcat lifters are only special when inside a Hellcat.

However I've tried several different computers, different browsers and I still do not see photos. Figured all that genius you and your 100 years of techs have could figure out how to post a photo correctly.

You have fun with your fingers in your and running in circles while screaming, "la la la la! I'M NOT LISTENING TO YOU!" I'm sure that'll serve you well when you grow up. Or maybe you could listen to people who have far more experience, at least with these vehicles/engines, than yourself and deal with them on a daily basis.

Your calling pot while being kettle here. I have directly responded to every response. Where as you have avoided, and deflected several key points of mine and others.

I'll bet you'd argue with your cardiothoracic surgeon about what's wrong with your heart citing that your buddies next door neighbors cousins best friend said it was something else and that the surgeon is way off base!?! Then while attempting to walk out of his office you drop to the ground then try to sue him!?!

If your going to compare This discussion with the human heart then allow me this retort, You would be the guy who had three heart attacks, does not get the answer he wants from several doctors looking for somebody to sue and trying to get a new heart.

Don't worry though. I still love you despite everything.

 

[CE9311]

Oh I am not going to go back through so many pages to clarify so many nit picking arguments. I give up. Your 100 years of knowledge and bucket full of lifters have defeated me. Cookie is in the mail.

Now I realize why no one else has responded here.

This is what they are thinking.

Sorry guys. Hope I was at least kinda entertaining. Did at least raise my post count up though!

 

[CE9311]

Well I'm no dummy. Ive been on here since 09 and have seen so many cam and lifter gone bad threads, valve seat dropped topics I could puke. If you guys think there's nothing wrong with the design of our hemis you can stay hidden behind that rock.
Maddog is right and thank you for your fight on this
Simon you've brought a lot of knowledge to the board but I'll bet in real life your an engineer,or have some type of engineer back ground. Your very smart. Am I right??

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Argument stems from the cause. Everyone knows something is wrong. But you have to everything agree that matches the failure. If there are three data points, and your argument is only supported by one does not mean it is the final say so. That is my whole beef. There is a lot of missing information that we will never get a hold of that could help. I.E. Say wanted to explore casting defect in a specific year range of block production...You would need numbers off couple hundred failed lifter blocks to get a control group to start a statistical fact on it. Same with Lifter being blamed. You would need to be be able to trace the supplier, and use of them through out the several vehicles they were used in.

I do not feel I ever said what is causing it, just argued against what others say cause it without having the actual data across the board to properly prove it.

And if you think new engines rely so heavily on "crank splash Lubrication" then you def have been hiding behind a rock for some time. possibly since the 1940s ish.

And coming on to the thread, offering nothing at all towards a discussion / argument besides calling some "know it alls", and acting like your horse is that much higher, then your def no better than at other garden variety troll. In fact by doing so you are belittling, and marginalizing others yourself. Ain't that funny?

Regardless of my disagreement with some folks here I would rather have them here than some one who does not offer nothing towards the actual topic vs just their personal judgment of the parties involved.

 

[CE9311]

Gen 3 Hemi Camshaft Failure Mystery Explained! - YouTube
Here's a video there's a design flaw

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Flat Earth PROVEN By Independent Research - YouTube

Here is a video, the earth is flat.

Get the point?

Cause that video already been hashed over. Read the thread. Can not base an "fact" using an older engine with a much newer ones. And he leaves out a lot of details. Not to mention early GEN III are known to not have anywhere the same amount of failed lifters vs the 2009+ Eagle hemis and he is clearly using a Pre Eagle hemi block.

Crank splash lubrication defect argument holds as much water as MDS Lifters being the cause of it argument.

 

[CE9311]

Yeah I guess your right
There's nothing wrong with the design
Your right.
Is that what you wanna hear

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Keep going back to design issues. How about trying to connect some dots your self? Perhaps if you can not come up with logical ideas that is not based on youtube clickbait monetized channels then you should have never posted in this thread.

Let em question this. If it were a 100% design issue. Then why hasn't every single hemi failed in the same manner withing same miles? Of all the million or so hemis produced, why is the general failure rate statistically low (failed vs in service)

If splash lubrication is so important, then why is my 3.3 designed by dodge, have much more of it's cam covered by the casting than the hemi generally last 200+ miles even with rough ownership? Would you like photos of this? I have a bare block?

 

[CE9311]

Here is a undershot of a Chrysler Designed 3.3 I keep at the foot of my bed. Gonna go ahead and say must be a miracle of all these engines rely on crank splash lubrication and this baby looks like its gets as much splash as the Sahara gets rain and yet, still has never been widely known for lifter/roller failures due to idling or low rpm use. Like to also point the engine with improvements over time, including use in a racing platform by Shelby (Can Am series) was in production for nearly 30 years.

And even then, I would say this argument is not valid, in a discussion involving a completely different engine. I would only use it to show that really old school thinking needs to stay where it belongs. With old School stuff.