[moparmajba]

So, this thread looks pretty much dead and buried, but wanted to throw out my situation, more for grins/information purposes.

2009ish Dodge Challenger 5.7L Tremec. Used exclusively for SCCA road racing, no street driving. The car has been racing for about 5 years without any additional coolers and just the SRT radiator. This year it is getting an oil/air engine oil cooler and power steering cooler in addition to a larger Fluidyne radiator.

I only started taking temps last year (I've only been operating the car myself for 2ish years). Oil temp sensor goes to the plug in the block, after pump, before filter, so it is likely hotter than the sump. Still, I have routinely seen temps about 310F. As far as I know, it's been running that temp for years. From what I have heard in my own digging and asking around, basically the upper limit of a synthetic oil.

Now, I run a heavier weight "racing" oil that may not be appropriate for road cars and change it every season, and my current races are typically no more than 30 minutes, max. As far as I can tell, I have not had any issues: the car always runs fine and yearly oil analysis says the oil always has more life in it (and metal counts are low).

Obviously, I'm adding some cooling to hopefully help my oil out. Just wanted to offer up some perspective from a car that is only ever driven hard.

 

[MattRobertson]

Not entirely dead. I still come by from time to time.

Worth noting - We've got direct experience with power steering pumps blowing clean off cars (Cam on Big Willow leaving parts on track) and SRT engineers acknowledging the issue. Last I heard the Jeep pumps with steel innards were being retrofitted to Lx's, but that was some time ago. As Moparmajba notes, 310-degree oil has been measured and yup that sure is right at the max for a synthetic. Interesting that it still had no apparent consequences.

I bet I have said this before in the early portions of this thread: Priority for enhanced cooling is water first, power steering second (multiple known failures), transmission next and engine oil last. On water/radiator: On 100+ in the shade days on Thunderhill I have nursed my motor to maintain consistent temps well into the red, so to speak, using the old-school Mopar Maximum Duty radiator, which is a shade more capable than the SRT rads of the day. You really want the bigass radiator as your starting point. Especially since your added coolers will be dumping heat straight into the radiator since they seal to the face of it.

Lastly, remember a street driven car is going to have a WHOLE LOT more weight in it than a race car. I actually tried taking out the interior of my car and found it got too squirrelly and actually needed the weight to keep the back end planted on corner exit. thats what you get for taking a passenger car out onto the race track.

 

[Tikibeast]

I find that point interesting as I have always believed in taking the guts out of my cars for performance myself, but a while back I ripped the interior out of the Magnum for a deep cleaning after five years of service as a baby hauler. I left it out for a bit just because I enjoyed the extra volume and I needed to haul some lumber. Low and behold once I unloaded all of the lumber I took her out to goof off a bit in the canyons and from the get go the backend wanted to be everywhere...except behind me 😅 I'm pretty sure I lost a few months worth of rubber in a couple of hours.

 

[moparmajba]

Interesting... with the car fully stripped and a definite front weight bias, the car pushes like a dump truck. I will say, I've gotten a Hotchkiss front and rear sway bars (biggest we could find), re-valved (more damping) RC racing adjustable springs/shocks, lowered ride height, and 295 Hooser R7s all around. These all change the characteristics from a stock vehicle. And, my weight with driver is 3600-3700 lbs.

But, back to cooling: the car never experienced PS issues in the 6 or so years it's been running. I added an SRT cooler this year just for some margin.

I'm currently tracking down some issues with the new system: last race the water temps went to 250F (OEM sensor)/260+F (autometer sensor installed in "bleed" hole on water pump). Car actually ran fairly well but I'm sure it was pulling all the spark it could to save itself. No boiling. I have another race this weekend and have addressed some of the more glaring issues, we'll see how it pans out.

 

[300srt8v56]

So, this thread looks pretty much dead and buried, but wanted to throw out my situation, more for grins/information purposes.

2009ish Dodge Challenger 5.7L Tremec. Used exclusively for SCCA road racing, no street driving. The car has been racing for about 5 years without any additional coolers and just the SRT radiator. This year it is getting an oil/air engine oil cooler and power steering cooler in addition to a larger Fluidyne radiator.

I only started taking temps last year (I've only been operating the car myself for 2ish years). Oil temp sensor goes to the plug in the block, after pump, before filter, so it is likely hotter than the sump. Still, I have routinely seen temps about 310F. As far as I know, it's been running that temp for years. From what I have heard in my own digging and asking around, basically the upper limit of a synthetic oil.

Now, I run a heavier weight "racing" oil that may not be appropriate for road cars and change it every season, and my current races are typically no more than 30 minutes, max. As far as I can tell, I have not had any issues: the car always runs fine and yearly oil analysis says the oil always has more life in it (and metal counts are low).

Obviously, I'm adding some cooling to hopefully help my oil out. Just wanted to offer up some perspective from a car that is only ever driven hard.

I haven't had a chance to run my car hard around a road course, or any twisty roads since I've added this, but after installing a Milodon 160 T-stat and adjusting my fan speeds, my water temps rarely get over 175-180f, even after 8-9 hard pulls in a row(reving to 6500-6700). I'm also supercharged(6.1) which adds heat. Cruising around town and on the highway my temps hover around 158-165f when it's 65-75F out. Oil temps are around 200-220F after those pulls and 180-195 when cruising(Colder than ideal for the street I know).

I'll have to drive the car hard around some curvy roads in Mexico and report back on the temps.

I'm also running an Amsoil EAO26 filter, which is almost double the size of the standard size filter, and about in inch or so bigger than the Mobil M1-301A, which I believe is helping lower oil temps.

 

[moparmajba]

IMO, the road racing really taxes the cooling circuit since it's just constantly at higher RPMs and you can be racing inches from the guy in front of you. Drag racing you at least get the slow down area and the return road. Since ICE engine dissipate 1/3 of their power through heat, obviously upping HP drives load on the cooling circuit, possibly higher than what it was originally designed for.

For my part, I finally got temps a bit under control: 220/230F ECT (depending on the gauge) and the EOC seems to actually be doing something now, bringing oil temps down around 290F. Using CAN data, I have video that actually shows the fluctuation while I'm racing in traffic or even as I'm coming up on other cars. The changes I made were:
1) Re-installing spring in upper hose (pressure hose shouldn't need a spring, but I think it helps keeps form during install)
2) Installing spring in lower hose (not production, but I figured what the hell. The lower (suction) hose might collapse at high RPMs, especially with the long run our cars have. Mine is now essentially solid for most of its length)
3) Forced thermostat full open. We actually gutted the rad-side so there is virtually no restriction and forced the T-stat "down" so that the engine re-circ circuit is always shut. Race starts around 170F because that's how I set my fan, but quickly goes up from there. After a race, it's down to 160/170F within a few minutes.
4) THIS IS KEY: FINALLY bled the whole system. I don't know if it's the new radiator or what, but the thing kept getting massive amounts of air that it didn't want to burp. Finally started pulling the sensor for my temp gauge (where the plug is on the water pump). We'd pull it out completely and literally wait for a 3 count before water would come out. The Gen III Hemi's take some care to fully bleed.

 

[OttoPilot]

Throughout this thread there have been questions and speculations about the efficiency of various EOCs. Some manufacturers' data appears inflated versus others.

To get clarity, I gathered manufacturer data for some representative EOCs and, using heat transfer principles, converted the manufacturers' ratings into standardized ratings (all evaluated at the same conditions of flow, temperature, etc.)

When doing this, I found that most manufacturers rate their heat exchangers at dry sump flow rate. This gives a very large capacity rating but it's not representative of the capacity or pressure drop on a lower-flow rate wet-sump oil system, i.e. our street-based cars.

In the attached table, the manufacturers' data are in the red-shaded rows. The standardized ratings are in the blue-shaded rows.

Setrab is one of the few manufacturers that rate at wet-sump flow rates, so I used their conditions as the standard for comparison.

As Matt initially suspected, Fluidyne and Setrab rate very highly. A large Earl's cooler also rates well.

 

[MattRobertson]

I found the same issue with regard to burping. It just doesn't want to do it, but if you are persistent its doable. This is turning the way back machine waaaay back but If I remember correctly part of the solution was giving the car a hard, short run, cooling, refilling and repeating until there was no longer an issue.
Also @300srt8v56, As moparmajba notes, a drag race is literally nothing compared to a road race and sustaining hi rpms for 20 minutes at a whack. Not sure if any of this is needed if you are just strip racing. And everything I am saying is colored by the fact my experience may be extensive but its all for gen1 LX's that are by this time long out of production. I have no idea what current cooling/performance roadblocks are.

 

[TheFrankenberry]

And everything I am saying is colored by the fact my experience may be extensive but its all for gen1 LX's that are by this time long out of production. I have no idea what current cooling/performance roadblocks are.

I don't know about roadblocks but improvements with the 2015 LA chassis update are they all have manta ray maws for the lower grille and the 392 now comes with the POC. And the Hellcat? Well, you Frankencooler pioneers deserve a hearty pat on the back and stein of beer for that one! :beerchug:

A spacious lower grille opening void of foglights directing air to a stand-alone oil cooler and smaller trans cooler? Sounds familiar. Where are these coolers? Why mounted under/behind the crash bar with the former on the passenger side and latter on the driver side! How is oil diverted to them? Via a sandwich adapter between the block and filter!

Props to you and this thread as it's kept my machine alive out on the track (along with Joelvan's rad and hydraulic p/s mod).

Only thing I'd like to add is folks should check out the billet sandwich adapters, take-off plates, remote mounts from IMPROVED RACING down in FL. Especially their thermostatic units since you're given 5 temperature options! I went with the 205F unit that starts opening at 200F and is fully open at 220F which allows it to get warm enough (paricularly in winter) to operate in the ideal 180-210F range to boil off
any water condensation.

And show no mercy utilizing use that "Beat-a-Price Guarantee" from Summit Racing - I picked up the $300+ Earl's 825 extra-wide 25-row cooler for less than $250!

 

[300srt8v56]

I found the same issue with regard to burping. It just doesn't want to do it, but if you are persistent its doable. This is turning the way back machine waaaay back but If I remember correctly part of the solution was giving the car a hard, short run, cooling, refilling and repeating until there was no longer an issue.
Also @300srt8v56, As moparmajba notes, a drag race is literally nothing compared to a road race and sustaining hi rpms for 20 minutes at a whack. Not sure if any of this is needed if you are just strip racing. And everything I am saying is colored by the fact my experience may be extensive but its all for gen1 LX's that are by this time long out of production. I have no idea what current cooling/performance roadblocks are.

Figured it would be similar to carving back roads, but I was wrong, different game. Learned that in the fall....after 10 minutes of hard lapping with my tuner driving, oil temps reached 260f, water temp hit 205f. Ambient temp was only 70f....no where near the 100f weather you guys get down south. Wasn't pushing the car to its limit either. Road course is hard on the cooling system no doubt. Good on you guys for making it work.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[d rock no ice]

Thank you very much @mattrobertson and friends for the write up. Realy helped me complete my own PS cooler upgrade and oil cooler sandwich plate install. Look forward to putting them through some tough days, again thanks for your r & d and constant updates.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Ron380]

People still doing the cooler upgrades? Cool! :thumbs_u:

Hi Matt! :Na_Na_Na_Na:

 

[Jay Z]

what's she look like with clothes on?

 

[d rock no ice]

what's she look like with clothes on?

You talkin to me?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Jay Z]

You talkin to me?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yup

 

[d rock no ice]

what's she look like with clothes on?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[TheFrankenberry]

Thank you very much @mattrobertson and friends for the write up. Realy helped me complete my own PS cooler upgrade and oil cooler sandwich plate install. Look forward to putting them through some tough days, again thanks for your r & d and constant updates.

I don't see any sort of NVH damping material in the mounting setup...is it all just hard-mounted directly to the crashbar? I believe it was addressed early in the thread when Meister's setup developed a leak, and I remember some cooler manufacturers recommended it too.

I used Earl's coolers and their brackets which included foam/rubber/neoprene pads to help isolate the cooler from vibrations. The Hellcat oil cooler does this as well with what looks like two big rubber bushings in the mounting holes.

You also have it mounted via just the upper ears...no concerns there? It was a potential issue that Matt solved early in the thread with simple stainless steel all-thread making it much more stable and fully supported.

 

[d rock no ice]

I don't see any sort of NVH damping material in the mounting setup...is it all just hard-mounted directly to the crashbar? I believe it was addressed early in the thread when Meister's setup developed a leak, and I remember some cooler manufacturers recommended it too.

I used Earl's coolers and their brackets which included foam/rubber/neoprene pads to help isolate the cooler from vibrations. The Hellcat oil cooler does this as well with what looks like two big rubber bushings in the mounting holes.

You also have it mounted via just the upper ears...no concerns there? It was a potential issue that Matt solved early in the thread with simple stainless steel all-thread making it much more stable and fully supported.

Thanks for pointing that out I over looked that. I think the neoprene pads would be the best bet.
I did just mount the upper ears directly to the crash bar w/ Z brackets, my plan was to use the threaded dowels like the OG's but ended up not feeling the need considering how sturdy it was. But hey after some miles I can easily make adjustments...but think the neoprene pads is a good immediate one.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Hemissary]

You'll be fine...

There's not enough short-term vibration loading on our rides to worry about - even if it was (directly) mounted to the engine itself. Damping / energy dissipation rules...

 

[OttoPilot]

Thank you very much @mattrobertson and friends for the write up. Realy helped me complete my own PS cooler upgrade and oil cooler sandwich plate install. Look forward to putting them through some tough days, again thanks for your r & d and constant updates.

Beautiful car and superb installation job!

A caution is that the cooling capacity of that Mish EOC is about 16% less than the Earl's EOC on Matt's car.

Setrab publishes the best information on EOCs. By their charts, that Mish EOC is suitable for a 260 HP engine.

However, your design gives much better air flow than Matt's.

This is a long way of saying, be sure to check your oil temperature under load.