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Is your rash doing o.k.?
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I'm with everyone above, don't tell them anything. We AWD owners pretty much all go down this road.

Try the modifier and see what comes to be. Or, if you want them to throw parts at it under warranty, find a better more thorough dealership that can actually diagnose something versus look at AllData to see what is possibly "symptomatically" wrong.

Based on being a 2009 AWD, I'm pretty sure you have the 5sp NAG1 otherwise it would have a 4sp if I'm not mistaken... This is common issue with our cars. It is more prevelant in the AWD which may have to do with torque loading variations based on the t-case itself and how clutches and bearings are worn or affected...

The NAG1 transmission is known to have a slight "catch" or "hang-up" that developes between clutch packs, gears 2-3 if I recall correctly. Basically what commonly happens is that as various clutches are being adjusted to meet the driving condition, a "rough spot" forms which doesn't allow complete release or affects partial engagement. After watching your video, you can see that your RPMs at roughly 1,500 - 2,000 puts you in an area where the transmission and torque converter are "working" to compensate for lower RPM yet the higher load of the car. Most shudder does occur close to the 2,000 rpm range with a light to level ground load. Now I've rebuilt my transmission and replaced clutches, but left other hard parts... similar to what you had done. It didn't fix anything. This leads me to believe it may ultimately resultant of a hard part wearing differently. Something like a bearing or shaft in the transmission...

Anyway, the point of the friction modifier is it acts as a "lubricant to a lubricant" to allow cleaner movement of parts within but yet allows full "bite" of the clutches. Its often used in off road vehicles to allow their locking differentials to engage/disengage with little to no issues. In fact, it is used now by many manufacturers as a general additive when servicing their transmissions. GM for instance now calls for it when servicing their 4L60E, 4L80E, and others used in their SUV's and Trucks.

I solved my shudder by ditching the OEM torque converter and going with an FTI 3200 stall... puts the low RPM concern so far out of reach that it very very seldom shudders now. I've gotten it to do it once or twice by literally trying to float down the road at lower RPMs, but normally she doesn't see less than 2,500 RPM's anymore so... problem solved. Probably the best modification I've done yet. Wish I would have went with a 3500 actually.

Anyway, keep us posted and let us know what comes to be.
 

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15 Years of AWD fun
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I'm with everyone above, don't tell them anything. We AWD owners pretty much all go down this road.

Try the modifier and see what comes to be. Or, if you want them to throw parts at it under warranty, find a better more thorough dealership that can actually diagnose something versus look at AllData to see what is possibly "symptomatically" wrong.

Based on being a 2009 AWD, I'm pretty sure you have the 5sp NAG1 otherwise it would have a 4sp if I'm not mistaken... This is common issue with our cars. It is more prevelant in the AWD which may have to do with torque loading variations based on the t-case itself and how clutches and bearings are worn or affected...

...............
All LX AWD's use the Nag1.
 

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Is your rash doing o.k.?
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877 Posts
All LX AWD's use the Nag1.
Yeah, what you said.

I was pretty sure about that. Only makes sense otherwise they likely have to modify the transmission housing and cross members all over again to make a differing AWD configuration. Doesn't make economical sense... but then again, neither does many of the things varying auto manufacturers do these days...

I may be a big guy, I'm just not a big V6 guy so thanks for confirming that about the AWD LX.

Now... back to work I go!

:magburno:
 

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I think alpinewil81 has the best explanation that I heard so far about what is causing it
It's hard to pinpoint exactly what is causing it If the dealer doesn't know exactly what the problem is than they are just guessing and we can all do that
If they really want to change something that makes a difference they would have to replace the entire transmission and converter with a new one or do like alpinewil81 and change the converter to something other than stock to move the rpm band
I would say just use the additive and forget about the dealer unless you like to go over there for a trial and error untill the warranty runs out and than you still have the same problem
This additive is amazing It's hard to believe that this little bottle would make such a big difference in a complex transmission but it does
 

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Is your rash doing o.k.?
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877 Posts
Status1, thanks for the support. I've gone down several roads with my t-case and transmission and have had several experiences, over the years I try to retain all my experiences and knowledge gained to help those with similar issues. I'm with you, just give it some friction modifier and see what happens. I also tapped my transmission oil pan with a drain bung and plug.... makes changing the fluid much easier since I do drive it quite hard with that torque converter :)

On another note, Weber State University did a pretty cool tear down of the NAG1 and did a video explaining its function. They posted it on their youtube site, it is located at: Chrysler NAG1 5-Speed Transmission Power Flow - YouTube . I think if anyone has time, its a pretty informative 10 minutes... and its cool to see the guts of what gets us moving.
 

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That was a good video but now they or someone else should go a little deeper into the transmission and try to find exactly what is the cause of this shudder We know that the additive works we just want to know why
Is there a chance that this can have a permanent fix or is this something that we have to live with for the life of the car
 

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well the friction modifier didnt fix anything the car still has the shudder / hesitation problem, and i have changed allot of things


i have changed.

1-torque converter
2-Transmission has been overhauled
3-spark plugs
4-replaced Timing belt and tensioner
5-all sensors has been checked and they are okay

But the problem is still there

the last thing ill do now is replace the EGR valve im hoping it will fix my problem
 

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Is your rash doing o.k.?
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877 Posts
well the friction modifier didnt fix anything the car still has the shudder / hesitation problem, and i have changed allot of things

i have changed.

1-torque converter
2-Transmission has been overhauled
3-spark plugs
4-replaced Timing belt and tensioner
5-all sensors has been checked and they are okay

But the problem is still there

the last thing ill do now is replace the EGR valve im hoping it will fix my problem
Have you had the solenoids and valve body checked? If you are for sure it is a drivetrain issue, I could see something losing and gaining pressure at a rapid exchange causing such an issue? Also, I'm not sure if there is a program parameter in the 6 cylinder cars that allows for some sort of driveability modification. Take the eco mode in the V-8, I for a couple years had a surging issue under cruise that was caused because the PCM couldn't properly account for my modified intake and exhaust... shut it off in my Predator and all was fine.

Perhaps, and this is a suggestion, look into the PCM and programming and what it is controlling or seeking input from at those speeds and RPMs. Cars control in phases, there is a start up parameter when cold, then it modifies as the temperatures rise under operation. The TCM searches for driving input in intervals to build its adaptation. There could be something as simple as a sensor causing an issue elsewhere... I hate chasing a ghost because when you find it, you find it isn't much of a ghost, rather it was right there in front of you the whole time... man does that piss you off when it happens.
 

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Is your rash doing o.k.?
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You may have a bad drive shaft coupler.
...... I don't know why I didn't think of this sooner. Joelvan you the man. That's one hell of a suggestion!

At one point in time, I was in a hurry when I put my drive line in after some work. I didn't install the coupler correctly. Instead of flange to rubber on each side of it at the transmission, it was flange, rubber, flange directly through... created a horrible shudder at odd speeds. So, I figured while I was under there I'd replace both couplers and my drive line support bearing. Took my time, checked alignment of the parts, tightened it up, and there is a lot of previous issues now gone. Things like some of the driveline slop I had before from bad couplers is gone. I replaced them at about 100k miles and it was well worth it... a cheap and easy fix too. But then again, anything is easy when you have access to a hoist at your leisure...

Have you had a driveline specialist look at it to make sure its in check? They have a tool (don't remember what its called... a harmonic something or other) it comes with magnets that they strap to the driveline, with sensors magnetically attached to the body. It can read when and where rotating parts become out of balance and by how much. One drive it on and you may just get it figured out if the driveline itself is causing the issue...................
 

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true its really starting to piss me off :blam::blam::blam::blam::blam: as u said its a ghost im chasing
 

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this also has been changed
 

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guys i finally was able to hunt down the ghost :rock:

It was the EGR valve finally , the hesitation is gone the car drives smoother than ever

i replaced PCV , EGR , and drive belt all at once the car runs like a dream now. i cant believe how this EGR valve made this difference
 
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Holy crap this made a night and day difference! I initially put in about 2oz of friction modifier and it got rid of about 90% of the shudder, added another ounce and didn't see much of a difference, added the last ounce and now it's virtually gone! joelvan, you are freaking amazing! Thank you so much!
 

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Could it be a case of bad fluid in the tranny causing all of us to shudder. Why mopar atf+4 ms9206 instead of Shell atf 134 (mb 236.14 spec) ? Are they realy the same ? Merc people dont seem to be living this issue as much as we do ?
 

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R/T Man
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So would this be 4oz in the transmission and 4oz in the differential?
 

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Is your rash doing o.k.?
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877 Posts
Could it be a case of bad fluid in the tranny causing all of us to shudder. Why mopar atf+4 ms9206 instead of Shell atf 134 (mb 236.14 spec) ? Are they realy the same ? Merc people dont seem to be living this issue as much as we do ?
Fluid may have something to do with it. But we don't necessarily suffer any more than anyone else out there. We just have a better group of people and forum to help people through things. That and there is more useful information here than some other forums. Believe me... selling my Saab 9-7X with its 363 Stroker I built was the best thing I could do for my mood..... There are forum spats on here, but at least the first sentence in a majority of posts isn't usually: If you don't drive a Chebby you're a f'kin moron!!!... or something like that.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand. Some time ago, you'll see I had some advanced discussion regarding this. Not sure the thread, but it's out there somewhere. The topic was related to the clutches having a little bit of "hang up" as pressure changes at a certain RPM. Notice your shudder is related to an RPM, not a gear.... if you take time to closely diagnose it you'll see that it usually exists somewhere around the 2,500 RPM range if I recall correctly. My shudders showed up usually between 1-2 and 2-3, sometimes a 3-4 under the right load.

Anyway, the modifier does just that... modifies the friction capacity of the fluid so that things either move easier or grab harder. In this instance, it makes sense that if there is just a little issue with a clutch under normal pressures, that the modifier simply helps things along. I underwent a complete trans build early on, found my 2nd gear pack was toasted as well as a couple clutches throughout. We rebuilt it, it came back after a few thousand miles... we replaced the valve body to make sure it was in check, solenoids and all... still there. I replaced the torque converter with a different stall, boom problem solved. I'm not at 140,000 miles. This all makes sense from my previous finding. The RPM range and pressures are modified, so the clutches are under different pressures, loads, and so on. Smooth as can be running OEM fluids too. Well, except for my downshift... it's a little harsh but that's by choice...

Theoretically, if the modifier can do what it does, a different fluid could too. But I'm not willing to take the chance and contest what the developers of the transmission and the clutches within suggest. I can recall a time when I didn't listen to the GM tech about my 4L60E transmission in the Saab about the smurf blue fluid it required. It wasn't but a very short while later every clutch in the damn thing was **** and I was rebuilding it one more time. Hard lesson learned in my case.

There's a few threads on here about the use of other fluids. One thing I noticed, that unless you're into huge horsepower and sub 10 seconds, most everyone sticks with the OE fluids... I tapped my drain pan so it takes a few minutes and I can change it. Though the stuff hangs in there really damn good considering my driving habit and the fact I enjoy using that nitrous bottle in the back. :)
 
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