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Latest on NAG1 Built Trans?

38K views 122 replies 25 participants last post by  Hal'sMag 
#1 ·
Been out of the game for more than a year and looks like a lot has happened since then. I purchased a 2014 300 SRT8 which is still rocking the 5 speed NAG1, I need to build it to handle my future goals (800whp). I have always gone with Paramount or SHR, both have served me well, not really that much difference in behavior, if anything the paramount (conqueror) shifted a little a little softer/longer given the same tuning/torque management settings versus the SHR war Viking, but also had a TOUCH better downshift behavior when coming to a stop, very minor but was notable enough.

Who is now the go-to shop or place to get a solid built NAG1?
 
#96 ·
For an explanation of what we are doing. The valve body is modified in a way that I know mathematically how much pressure it makes. We ran all of this into an excel spreadsheet and the targeted pressures the stock tune makes. That way we ended up with a tune that was as close to possible as a stock tune on a stock valve body. Then we tuned for power from there. That is why we have near stock daily driver characteristics and Then when we need it we can go up to double the shift pressure and double the working pressure. All the while leaving the control pressures stock. This is not just jacked up pressures. It is completely modeled so we know exactly what it is doing.

As for why or or when you need to modify your transmission. I stated earlier we have found repeatedly that the input shaft will break before it needs clutches added. We found that at around a 9.7-s full weight Jeep. Trying to cut below 1.5 60’
now why. Simple there is not a single
clutch pack you can add double the clutches. But if you could to them all you would double
the holding capacity. At most hon can add 50% more and that is really at the cost of stacking issues. And heat control.
Most maybe 25% more. So the rest you have to do with pressure anyways.
Beleive me. I would be happy to charge anyone for building them transmissions
if they want to spend the money anyways. I machine pistons and add clutches too. If you want. I can put a bigger input shaft in to if you want. It is your money. If you want you can give it to me and I will build whatever you want.
 
#98 ·
I'm going to throw a side bar into this thread. It is great, current status reading. Hopefully the replies will enhance the topic.
At lower, as in a stock 392 motor with headers /tune, 3500 FTI stall, 3.73 Getrag, (thanks kbr577) an AJ programmed TCM that is rock steady. Street car that dead hooks with MT drag radials.
Blue top solenoids - will they make the upshifts /downshifts 'quicker' by design?

the car shifts at a nice 'firmness', from soft at light throttle, to firm at WOT. But with manual shifting in sport mode, I'd like t have it shift 'quicker' in response to the electronic signal command.
And, is there anything to 'lose' by just trying them? And, how about high power/torque cars - same question.
thanks
 
#102 ·
So i wouldnt need my AJ tuner TCM i would get both from you?.... is this a plug a play? and are they built per car?
 
#101 ·
The blue tops question. Yes blue tops make a difference. Not much but they do. Some may have heard that they do not because if the solenoids are closed then the pressures are the same. But you would not normally see a pressure control solenoid go to an off state during a shift. The transmission will be done shifting before the solenoid would ever ramp down that far. I would inquire about a firmer tune from AJ. If he can not make it any firmer with the tune then the solenoids would really not do anything either.
 
#103 ·
Again, I would contact Troy for those kinds of details. But plug and play is a yes/no answer.. Most of the time things are pretty straight forward but sometimes revisions need to be made on the tune. This is due to the fact that the engine tune has been modified in a way that the reported torque is not correct anymore. So the tcu is not getting the correct information. You can call or email the shop and Troy will be happy to go over your specific vehicle and the details.
 
#104 ·
All really good info. here is where I start to see this all break down though.

The big two guys that sell built transmissions have valve bodies modified to flow MAXIMUM pressure physically allowed through the valve body. I don't see anyone arguing that isn't the approach taken for any of the aftermarket valve bodies. Ding, Paramount, SHR, all the same, max pressure.

The difference I am seeing here is Ding took a much more calculated approach in measuring HOW MUCH the increase in pressure would be (not that it is less or more than the others, just that is measured), and used the info the dial back commanded pressures during regular driving via the tune. This seems very smart, well planned. My question is, why couldn't the same tune just be applied to the other valve bodies to see similar results?

With this calculated approach, I still don't see how this would result in a more durable, better shifting, better holding power during peak power and shifting. In the end, I would venture to guess any of these valve bodies are using similar pressure, so the differences come down to the tune and the actual physical clutches in the transmission. Ding appears to have a good working tune, its been proven, BUT I know for a fact and have seen the likes of tunes from THE BEST tuners out there and can assure you they have it nailed down, but these guys ARE not attempting these tunes on stock clutched transmissions and so I cannot say their ability to tune is comparable to what you have done. In short, if I took a Paramount valve body and used your tune, I would venture to say I would find similar holding power at peak power. Unfortunately I have tuned 3 exact vehicles with this setup with around 600-650whp, and all three failed on the 3-4 shift after some time. That was with moderate torque management still working, good ramp settings.

Maybe there is something different you guys are doing that is resulting in even higher pressures than what has been done in these valve bodies dating back to 2009. I don't know enough to say either way...
 
#105 ·
I would love to give this a shot on my setup. Does Ding offer a transmission warranty should I see a failure at a lower power level than expected? I would happily install this VB and pay for Ding's tune, but if I smoke my 28k mile healthy transmission while making some ten second passes, I will want some part of the rebuild paid for or covered.
 
#107 ·
Im no where near that power level that most here on this discussion... I maybe put 500 rwhp down... i just noticed last time out i had a somewhat flare on the 2 to 3 shift i just want to address that before i do damage...thats why im wondering if the VB will help... Im thinking the poor shifting left a little Time off the table for me...i think i could pick up a few tenths with better shiffting...and also im wondering if having my shift points set a 6400 is to high for a basically stock SRT with a bottle....hmmmm?
 
#108 ·
I will say that we make significantly more shift pressure than other valve bodies I have tested. I will definitely tell you how we do it is very different than other valve bodies on the market and there is absolutely no comparison and tunes for other valve bodies do not work on ours and our tunes do not work on theirs. We have had both experiences.
I actually refused to do the same modifications that others do for years after being asked to come up with something because I had been tuning these transmissions with aftermarket tcus long before tuning was available with the factory tcm from HP tuners. I knew the answers on the market place were the wrong way to do it.
As far as warranty, you should ask Troy. But I will feel free to say not a chance. To many variables that we cannot control. There is one thing I have learned and that is that people do things that I cannot control. Number one reason for transmission failure i see is heat. No one monitors their temps and they overheat them and burn them down.
Also most people go out and WOT the 1st thing they do on new transmissions and tunes, and etc. No normal driving to let adaptations settle in. Or find any problems before it is a big one. The other is and I see this a lot. Putting our valve body in a weak transmission trying to fix it.
Like I said I can build you a transmission as well as anyone else out there and charge you the same amount of money. I am just telling you that you do not need to spend the money with me. We really found this out through our own trial and error. And instead of telling our clients that they needed a built transmission, told them the opposite. Save your money for something else. And if your transmission needs replaced in the future. You can do it then. You are not out anything. Use our valve body and tune in any transmission you want. We have tunes for them all.. Or we can sell you one as well without a valve body.
 
#109 ·
Great info, thanks whipplem104.

So last question, and happy to call to discuss, I am tuning this vehicle myself (maybe with the help of a few others), how will it work to use your TCM tune? Kind of a horse before the cart issue, I need to be able to WOT test the vehicle, but don't want to do so until the TCM side is ready for it. What exactly is given when you guys "tune" the TCM, are we sending our TCM to you to flash it?
 
#110 · (Edited)
How does your tune deal with custom tunes already in modified cars? Let me be more detailed. Let's say I decided to try out your VB, my car is blown and custom tuned. I purchase your VB and install, how do we tune? Would this be a whole new custom tune to make use of your VB? Also I'm in NC, is this remote tuning possible or is this an in person affair?

***My man above is already asking the questions! On the same page!**
 
#111 ·
I do not see any reason you cannot tune your engine on our transmission tune.. You are just doing pulls in one gear on a dyno. Again hit Troy up for info like this.

For your existing engine tune question. No changes should have to be made for that. We only require tq management stay on and that the torque loss tables are set to stock.
None of this actually effects your engine tune.
 
#120 ·
I do not see any reason you cannot tune your engine on our transmission tune.. You are just doing pulls in one gear on a dyno. Again hit Troy up for info like this.

For your existing engine tune question. No changes should have to be made for that. We only require tq management stay on and that the torque loss tables are set to stock.
None of this actually effects your engine tune.
Did you used to work for Mercedes or am I thinking of someone else?
 
#112 ·
Sorry I missed all this. I last looked and not much going on this thread. Short on time this moment I will sit down and read all that I missed. Being I glanced through this real quick I would at lease put out a number to call for question. 360-695-6030 Ask for Jenn or Troy. I will get you some better answer after I get to sit down and read your thoughts.
 
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#113 ·
I love this thread!!!

I am getting ready to drop my 2006 SRT NAG1 (Has contactor board and slipping issues) I bought a newer 2013 NAG1 from a Charger with 50K on it. Guy dropped the engine into his jeep. Installed a standard trans.

I want to install sonnax TCC Damper Valve Kit, 1-2, 4-5 and a Master Overlap Control Sleeve Kit. I want to install a contactor board and a Merc pan with the drain hole.
I want to bench work everything and do my own mods. Is there any documentation that these guys use to work on 722.6s? Everyone talked about valve bodies etc. but what about Trans fluid. What is everyone running for a little higher then normal heavy footing.

Merry Christmas all.

 
#114 ·
To my knowledge everyone is still running regular ATF+4.
 
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#115 ·
That's what the manual calls for ATF+4
 
#116 ·
Ive heard tractor oil or something like that?.
 
#117 ·
I wouldn't put that in an automatic transmission. I used tractor oil in the steering in my Blazer, but that was because of the increased pressure from the modified pump and the ram I attached to the crossbar. I don't know what that fluid would do around the clutches.
 
#119 · (Edited)
Use the fluid the Manufacturer specified in the first place! You can't go wrong. Don't buy into the notion / bullsh!t that there's something "better". If you need confirmation of this, ask those who are setting record ETs. They are simply changing the transmission fluid that more often due to the extra abuse.
 
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#123 ·
You need to carefully read through the thread.
I have a Paramount transmission, and it shifts harsh when just cruising to the grocery store. That seems to be a matter of the valve body and tuning, which this would help. Maybe call them as suggested.
I was going to switch from blue tops to brown tops, but that doesn't seem to be the solution.
 
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