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One Mans Misfortune Becomes Another Mans Luck!!!

14K views 43 replies 8 participants last post by  netnathan 
#1 ·
So a couple of weeks ago we took in a used Hellcat Charger that had been "modified" by some idiot who I wouldn't trust to change the oil on my lawnmower. Anyway, the tech who performed the PDI told the used cars manager a bunch of items needed to be removed to return the vehicle to stock and avoid any warranty situations down the road. Like usual he listens like deaf person, completely ignored the techs advise and sold it as it came in. Well last week the S/C locked up and exploded while the new owner was driving it. Now sales is having to buy a new S/C (almost $16K) and the owner is insisting on the engine be replaced too! For some strange reason there is no core charge showing on the engine from Chrysler. Therefore I'm gonna pull the lifters and use them in mine! The only thing that sucks is I already have the stock replacement lifters soaking in oil so I can't really return them, dammit!!! Oh well gotta take the **** with the cherries I guess.
 
#2 ·

The lifters are no different than what you have in the bucket.
 
#8 ·
With my luck with these lifters, I'll need them!
 
#6 ·
Actually, way less than half through a FCM account...
 
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#15 ·
The point was, yes parts gets revised. Part numbers can also change if the Supplier changes. The larger of us hemi guys have known this and it added fuel to the speculation it was a lifter failure and possible a parts quality issue. (however the typical cylinder 5 failure throws bit of a wrench into that argument considering how often it is No.5)

Comparing 05-10 lifters to Hellcat lifters is kinda a lazy argument. No surprise it changed. And in the end proves nothing.


Also, that part number 5038787AD has fitments listed for 153 vehicles. Which goes alllllll the way back to 2004 including 5.7, 6.1 (fitment shows starting 2006 for 6.1) and 6.4 (listing shows 2012 being first year for 6.4 fitment)

All these engines use the same lifter. There are no proven differences. Aftermarket lifters have more changes to them than mopar in hope of curing the issue. You can throw hellcat lifters in anything you want. Still same part number. And the thread where Steve White, a Dealership who has done many sales, many mods, and various interactions with mopar guys even showed it.
 
#16 ·
The point was, yes parts gets revised. Part numbers can also change if the Supplier changes. The larger of us hemi guys have known this and it added fuel to the speculation it was a lifter failure and possible a parts quality issue. (however the typical cylinder 5 failure throws bit of a wrench into that argument considering how often it is No.5)

Comparing 05-10 lifters to Hellcat lifters is kinda a lazy argument. No surprise it changed. And in the end proves nothing.

Also, that part number 5038787AD has fitments listed for 153 vehicles. Which goes alllllll the way back to 2004 including 5.7, 6.1 (fitment shows starting 2006 for 6.1) and 6.4 (listing shows 2012 being first year for 6.4 fitment)

All these engines use the same lifter. There are no proven differences. Aftermarket lifters have more changes to them than mopar in hope of curing the issue. You can throw hellcat lifters in anything you want. Still same part number. And the thread where Steve White, a Dealership who has done many sales, many mods, and various interactions with mopar guys even showed it.
Interesting you mention the 05-10 lifters, as it seems that it's 11+ that have been having the issues with lifters dying. Maybe a supplier change triggered the problem.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk
 
#21 ·
Also, here are some images of the carnage of the exploded S/C!!!



Not sure if the engine is viable yet!
 
#22 · (Edited)
I am not seeing any photos. Doesn't even show error or anything?


Also, No clue why your trying to compare 05-10 lifters with newer when it has been said clearly they revised the parts. The whole argument was the "hellcat" lifters are the same as any other lifter and not special.

Who cares if lifters are different from older generation. Nothing new there. Your digging up info like you found the ark of covenant of answers and its actually just the bottom of the litter box man.
 
#23 ·
I am not seeing any photos. Doesn't even show error or anything?

Also, No clue why your trying to compare 05-10 lifters with newer when it has been said clearly they revised the parts. The whole argument was the "hellcat" lifters are the same as any other lifter and not special.

Who cares if lifters are different from older generation. Nothing new there. Your digging up info like you found the ark of covenant of answers and its actually just the bottom of the litter box man.
Thats strange! The photos aren't showing up on my phone but when I go to my laptop they're right there. I don't know what the he'll is going on with that.

Anywa, as I stated previou, I wasn't specific enough when I said Hellcat lifters. What I should have said was the lifters were coming from a 19 Hellcat! My bad. Alsi, the reason I'm ATTEMPTING to show the lifters from the 03-10 compared to the 11-present is because I have an 06 that has been experiencing the premature lifter failures. Also to show that Chrysler attempted to make a band aid repair when they designed the 392 in 11. However, because they attempted a half ass fix they're still having lifter failures.

Lastly, I spoke to 3 of my geavykibe techs when I was asking for the lifter images and I asked them on the engines that have the lifters fail if there was any particular spot in the engine they fail more in. All 3 replied they've seen them on all cyls but predominantly on the #5 and #7 cyl intake lifters! Even on the most recent engines up to 19! These 3 techs have a combined knowledge of around 87 years working on Dodge, Chrysler and jeeps. Hmmm.....now I wonder why that is? Bad batch of lifters from 2008 that just happened to be sitting on the parts dept shelves? Doubtful!!!

Jeasus please tell me the planes you're in charge of are remote control and do not carry living human beings!
 
#27 · (Edited)
It's not like you didn't ask repeatedly for supporting information that was actually promised CE9311 :^)

I might have engaged further...except for - like you - no pics of a bucket of "failed" Hemi lifters, zero stats of any sort to back up the exaggerated claims (over the top actually), a Readers Digest level of Hemi knowledge sprinkled with Internet innuendo. Instead of any information to support the conjecture, you get responses that are rife with marginalization and insults (because there are no stats, no information, no bucket of failed lifters)...

A third fruitless thread :^/
 
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#28 ·
"As far as crank splash, IT IS very important to rotating components on most engines. ESPECIALLY at idle when there is an unusually large cam and crank separation!"

I cannot believe I have to explain this but here goes. It's not real complicated so try to follow. At RPM's just of idle and up the crankshaft spins faster (along with the rest of the internal engine components). This then results in increased oil pressure as well as volume. This allows more oil flow through the oil galleys, which are pathways in an engine block where oil flows through, thereby providing better lubrication
to critical engine components. Then as the crankshaft spins the counterweights pickup some of the oil in the pan and sling it around the in the internals of the lower end of the block causing what is called the "windage" effect. The "windage" effect is a cloud of oil droplets suspended in the lower end of the engine and can be as much as a quart of oil at any given time. Some of this oil would thereby would be slung onto the camshaft and lifters protecting them in a bath of oil. However, at idle the "windage" effect would be far less. Couple this with an increased distance in relation between the crankshaft and camshaft, poor angle of the lifters and oil galley/tube running the length of the block just below the camshaft which makes it even more difficult for oil being slung from the crankshaft to get to the camshaft. Also, because the lifters are outboard of the lifter bores any oil that does come down the bore really doesn't end up lubricating the rollers. It ends up falling down into the pan area. Another issue with the oiling system is the lifters are the last thing to be oiled in the system. Lastly, the lifters being almost parallel to the ground means any oil that comes off the back of the lifter flows down, due to gravity, into the oil drain slots under each lifter bore which then allows the oil to fall down into the pan area again and never touches the camshaft. There, does that break is down for you in simple enough terms? If my description doesn't do it for you here's a video for you to watch: Gen 3 Hemi Camshaft Failure Mystery Explained! - YouTube
Maybe a guy who's been doing nothing but building engine for the last 40 years can spell it out for you in more simple terms. Sorry, no coloring book and crayons provided.
 
#33 ·
"As far as crank splash, IT IS very important to rotating components on most engines. ESPECIALLY at idle when there is an unusually large cam and crank separation!"

I cannot believe I have to explain this but here goes. It's not real complicated so try to follow. At RPM's just of idle and up the crankshaft spins faster (along with the rest of the internal engine components). This then results in increased oil pressure as well as volume. This allows more oil flow through the oil galleys, which are pathways in an engine block where oil flows through, thereby providing better lubrication
to critical engine components. Then as the crankshaft spins the counterweights pickup some of the oil in the pan and sling it around the in the internals of the lower end of the block causing what is called the "windage" effect. The "windage" effect is a cloud of oil droplets suspended in the lower end of the engine and can be as much as a quart of oil at any given time. Some of this oil would thereby would be slung onto the camshaft and lifters protecting them in a bath of oil. However, at idle the "windage" effect would be far less. Couple this with an increased distance in relation between the crankshaft and camshaft, poor angle of the lifters and oil galley/tube running the length of the block just below the camshaft which makes it even more difficult for oil being slung from the crankshaft to get to the camshaft. Also, because the lifters are outboard of the lifter bores any oil that does come down the bore really doesn't end up lubricating the rollers. It ends up falling down into the pan area. Another issue with the oiling system is the lifters are the last thing to be oiled in the system. Lastly, the lifters being almost parallel to the ground means any oil that comes off the back of the lifter flows down, due to gravity, into the oil drain slots under each lifter bore which then allows the oil to fall down into the pan area again and never touches the camshaft. There, does that break is down for you in simple enough terms? If my description doesn't do it for you here's a video for you to watch:Gen 3 Hemi Camshaft Failure Mystery Explained! - YouTube
Maybe a guy who's been doing nothing but building engine for the last 40 years can spell it out for you in more simple terms. Sorry, no coloring book and crayons provided.
I knew you were a Uncle Tony lover. Guy is using old school engine thoughts on new engines. He is flat out wrong. And so are you. Here is a good video so maybe your bucket of lifters and 100 years of knowledge can learn something cause you literally just proved you have very little clue what your talking about when it comes to operational theory on the Gen III Hemi. Or any engine really. Crank dipping into oil. Lolz

Gen 3 hemi cam lifter failure?... Uncle Tony's Garage doesn't have a clue! - YouTube

I can not believe it's not butter, BUT let me explain something to you.

This is not some 1930s engine with freaking scoops on the rods for oiling. You DO NOT ever want your crank to be dipping into the oil in any form. Huge no no. Go ahead and google it. You will find many facts as to why you do not want this. In fact, the stock hemi oil pan gasket has a integrated windage tray in it. Guess what job it has? Help prevent windage. *GASP* (go ahead and google it. Or I can post a photo since I know how. This was a high performance deal for longest and has reached its way into main stream autos. In fact the 1G 3.5 had it as well.One of the mods for us LH guys to put a 3.5 pan gasket on our 3.3. In fact Motor Mags have even shown the absolute loss of power from crank hitting oil from being overfilled.

When filled correctly, the Gen III Hemi, and really any engine this side of a century does Not want its crank and rods dipped into oil.

And you can make fun on my oil sample deal. I've only done it twice. Once before failure, and 20K miles after. I'm still not the guy sitting here with a broken engine at the end of the day.

I don't need any crayons and books to be provided. I made my own Books, ate all the good crayons all by myself.

I still love you though.
 

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#29 ·
"I was implying your engine has other issues. I wanna say you mentioned faulty cam bearing (or was that some one else?) install so who else knows whats going on in there. Could be you, Could be them. Could be aliens."

OK fair enough. Yes I mentioned 3 separate lifter failures, 1 cam that was replaced due to said lifter failure which damaged the cam and a spun cam bearing that happened the day I parked it. So please, by all means, enlighten me.
 
#30 ·
"Your right. It may fail. That is why I use Blackstone to watch for wear levels."

Yes I and most other people in the automotive world are very familiar with this and I've known a few anal retentive morons (engineers who usually drove crossfires) who did this with every oil change, wrote down in a log book the time and date of the oil change, including the angle of the sun, the temp outside when beginning the oil change, the outside temp when the oil change was completed, the barometric pressure, the relative position of the planet in the galactic plane, etc etc etc and they still suffered catastrophic engine damage and/or failure in a moments notice. Just like mine has done, yours will if you keep it long enough and the thousands and thousand more that have experienced the same thing.
 
#31 · (Edited)
"Are you implying most of 5.7 owners are idiots? That would be like me implying anyone who dones three sets of lifters on same engine block most be an idiot. Implying on small little factors kinda hurtful aint it?"

YES! Like most people these days they can barely put gas in their vehicle or air up the tires on their own! The way most people think about cars is "I bought the damn thing, paid good money for and it should run with little to no maintenance forever! That coolant leaking on the ground isn't my problem and if the engine is overheating because of it, oh well! I've got places to be and if it smokes the engine in the process that's Ford, Chrylser, Toyota, or whoever's problem! Not mine!"

To top it off you should see the interior condition of these cars when they pull up on the service drive. Jesus, I feel like I need to get a tetanus shot after getting out of their rolling trash can/feces hole!!!

And if you're attempting to hurt my feelings by suggesting repeating a repair is stupid, oh that hurts my feeling. Then again I learned long ago to leave my feeling at home so keep trying junior. Not to mention, as I've stated before, I hate car payments and prefer to keep my vehicles for a long time. The one i had before this was a 92 SHO Taurus which had approx 342000 miles on it when I sold it. Still ran like a top at 19 years old!
 
#32 ·
As far as the images of the differences in the lifters and the exploded S/C, I still can't figure it out. I go to my laptop and they are showing in the thread. I HATE COMPUTERS!!!
 
#39 ·
"Man your digging a hole now. Crank does not pick up oil from a windage tray. Tech the windage tray is design to PREVENT it. And you did say and quoting again "Then as the crankshaft spins the counterweights pickup some of the oil in the pan and sling it around the in the internals of the lower end of the block causing what is called the "windage" effect." Sounds like you said counterweights pick up some oil there bub."

Well from the first to the most recent training class I had to participate in for engines, that is required by Chrysler at my level, this is exactly what was described and even shown in the animation of the internal working of the engines. While there is very little sitting in the windage tray there is still enough for the crank to sling. Now I know Chrysler's knowledge on their own product is probably nil when compare to yours or others here but that's what I'm forced to deal with.

"See now here is the funny thing. I know your bull****ting an argument here for the sake of it. No one in the LH world had any issues from the oil pan gasket mod. Not a single one. And while I am here, I have a bare 3.3 block at the foot of my bed. I took a gander at it and *gasp* the cam is 90% blocked from any (crank splash lube) in the casting. As in the hemi has more open area. And what is funny is 3.3 known as a hardy engine with many examples with 300K miles. Shoot I have 258K on mine and def not cam/lifter issues there from lack of crank splash."

REALLY?? So the ones I personally saw with the busted crankshaft just after the #2 or #3 rod (can't really remember exactly which) that has this oil pan gsk mod weren't broken? REALLY? Wow, for some reason I got paid to replace the engines on each one for some strange reason! I was also lucky enough to 2 of the 3 or 4 3.5L in the 300M's that were required to have the engine replaced for NO REASON whatsoever from Chrysler with no explanation as to why! So yea I've seen alot of crazy things that you and many others haven't seen! Also, I was going off the information the tech provided to me and all I did was verify the broken crankshafts. Now if he informed incorrectly as to why they failed, sorry. Just going off what I was told. As far as the 3.3l being a hardy engine, LOLOLOLOLOLOL!!! Yea so was the 2.7l! In both I saw them completely sludged up at 20K miles with 4 to 5 verified oil changes. Yea real quality product there.

"
Currently @ 147K miles with just one set of lifters. Best part it turned over 146K miles making of the 50th passes on a dragstrip. Tech I am doing better than you already. (yours had a second failed set @ approx 128K according to your posts) Considering the rest of the engine is original unlike yours. My cam bearings looked great as well too! Specially if I am willing to wager my car has seen a lot more abuse than yours. Specially seeing that for 113K miles before the lifter replacement it was a GA State Patrol car."

Once again, showing your ignorance as far as the cop car having more abuse on it than a civilian owned vehicle. All the cop and state patrol vehicles I've dealt with over the years are meticulously maintained and when they have an issue they're immediately repaired back to manufacture specs. If they can't be repaired they are most often crushed! Meanwhile I see civilian owned vehicles on a daily basis, blown out struts, bald tires, puking fluids everywhere that I feel like I need to deloused after getting out of. So, yea I'd take a 100k former cop/state patrol car over most 50K civilian owned vehicles!

"
IF it were "crank" splash issue, and a overall casting defect on EVERY single hemi than EVERY single hemi would have this failure. This is a FACT."

Then with that logic EVERY 3.6L should have the drivers side head replaced rather than the MAYBE 10% that actually have the failure! RIGHT???

"
Too much faith in sampling? Best tell that to the aviation community who put a lot of faith in it. But your un-seen bucket of lifters and 100 years of knowledge seem to know more than these guys."

It just seems the ones who do it bet everything on it and then when they have a failure they lose their **** with either the oil sampling company and/or the dealership personal and NOT the manufacturer. And yea I know the aviation community, including the military, use it to ID issues and they still have unplanned failures. A cousin of mine use to fly F14's and had a mid flight engine failure even with all of their protocols in place. After that he went to helicopter school and now flies CH53 Super Stallions. I'm not really sure how he figured this was more safe as helicopters do not fly! They simply beat the air into submission! YIKES!!!

"
Glue no, I like to let it dry on my fingers and hands so it makes like snake skin. Super cool. Arts and Crafts was always my favorite time. Plus, you go and make crayons smell delicious your gonan eat them too. MMmhhmm Bacon scented red crayons would be heaven."

Yea I remember doing the glue peal thing too! As far as the bacon flavored crayons. Eeeeeeewwwwwww!
 
#40 ·
Oh, so what is causing the lifters to fail on so often Gen 3 hemis from 03-19 as anything I've stated has nothing to do with it???? Because I haven't seen one other cause of failure by anyone here!
 
#42 · (Edited)
You haven't even LOOKED what has been posted here! Every point you've brought up, including aftermarket parts, has already been discussed in threads on this very subject!

Instead - you've elected to continually ignore our input, LIE through your f'n teeth and literally insult multiple times every Member on this Forum!

Premature Lifter Failure (read the rules)

You - are toast...




 
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#41 ·
You keep using this training and these techs, and all these buckets of lifters as proof. Yet you still haven't taken time to figure out how to post photos. Once you delay this long man only becomes more suspicious. I've shown you what I know, and how I know it. You keep saying same thing with no visual aids or proof. Just one youtube channel you hold on to life for.

Did you miss the part where the 3.3 has no area for "crank splash" to hit the cam? Do I need to post a photo? Cause a oil pan gasket is not going to cause issues and has proven itself on LH forums to not have. And the 3.3 was the only one to do this. The 3.5s had the integrated windage tray. If you had as much training as you say you would know this.




Know already said it before but your salesman bull****tery is getting annoying. I'm done. Reminds me of the oil salesman on other forums. Thank God he is not here. GoooOOOoood luck. Cause only one of two things will happen. You will prove yourself right with actual photos, statistical backed data. Or you will slowly slink or fade away.
 
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#44 ·
It is called a "windage tray" for a reason. The tray isolates the "wind" generated by the crank spinning from "lifting" up oil from the sump.
 
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