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GIFO3 - Headers, 18" vs 20" & GSM Mod RESULTS

46K views 43 replies 18 participants last post by  Meister 
#1 · (Edited)
A BIG THANK YOU TO JOSH AND HIGH HORSE PERFORMANCE, HARDWARE SPONSOR FOR THE GIFO3 SERIES OF TESTS.

Test Information
Date: 10/21/05
Dyno Time: 9:00 - 5pm
Dyno Temp Range: 65 - 80 degrees F
Dyno Location: SVS Automotive Research and Development Dept, Sacramento (www.svsrnd.com)
Dyno Driver and test administrator: Bob Crespo of SVS R and D
Dynamometer: Superflow AutoDyn SF 840 Chassis
Dyno Setup: All tests were run with a fan blowing from the front of the vehicle as well as across the tail area.
Dyno Raw Data: Coming soon.

Results Summary



Where to start? There was so many things going on this day. Much of it did nothing but raise more questions and lead to more confusion. Let's just start at the top.

Headers:
I think it's pretty clear that the headers are indeed worth some hp and trq gains. At first look, you might think what we all thought; comparing the average of the runs just before and just after shows a net of 20hp and 22torque. But, as you look closer at the data, something starts to seem… strange (the word of the day)

First, its important to realize that a battery disconnect is required to install the headers. So, if we take as fact that the PCM has no settings to loose, we should be able to claim the reset has no bearing on the results. But, look at these graphs:

HP


Torque


Notice something? After the headers were installed, our famous tranny dip shows its ugly face. But, and we confirmed this, the GSM traction mod was turned on. Why does the traction modification not work after a battery disconnect? (more on this later)

So, can we say the headers are worth 20/22? Maybe. I hesitate to assert it as fact, however, since there is clearly something going on in the torque management; something I could not control. Could it be the battery disconnect had some effect beyond throttle response?

GSM Traction Modification:
This is where things get really weird. As I understand it, the whole point of the mod is to limit the dip in hp and trq that accompanies each shift of the gears. The theory is, by removing this dip, time is saved and therefore we should get faster ¼ times. The above charts show this difference.

Now, take a look at this:


You're looking at an overlay of two runs, that only differed by a flip of the switch (turning the GSM mod on). Notice that there is no dip. It would seem the tranny is acting like the GSM mod is on all the time. We didn't just see this on my car; we saw it on Meister's as well across multiple runs.

This I find very disturbing. The potential safety implications alone are enough to justify the concern; how can I be sure my traction control is functioning properly? What is it about this mod that changes the circuit to the point where the tranny acts totally differently now that it's installed? Could this be a characteristic of the tranny itself, and thus the GSM mod in fact does nothing? So many questions, that seem to have no answers…

Here is another issue. Take a look at these:

HP


Trq


These two runs were consecutively made. The battery was disconnected before set 7, and you can see that the first two runs in set 7 behave as though the mod was not turned on. The last three runs in set 7 behave as though the mod was turned on (it was turned on for all 5; see above for a discussion on this). This graph shows runs 2 and 3. The thing I found interesting here is how the HP begins to dip much sooner than the standard shift. Even though the hp doesn't drop so dramatically, the power does diminish far sooner than expected. Wouldn't this tend to give back all the time we gained by a smaller dip? Perhaps that is why we saw basically zero improvement at the track.

K&N Aircharger vs The Stock Box:
I think we've finally reached the point where we might have realized a restriction in the stock box. Take a look at sets 4 and 5. I'm actually shocked to see that by removing the K&N Aircharger, I gave up 12/13. Still no where near the advertised 21, but we're gaining on it.

20" vs. 18" Rims and Tires:
If anything, the numbers show an improvement with the 20"s. I was unable to weigh these setups, but based on published numbers, the 20"s come in a few lbs heavier than the stocks.

203f vs. 170f Thermostat:
This was a spur of the moment test. Meister was able to track down a 170f thermo at the local Kragen, so we gave it a go. The numbers seem to show a 10/5 improvement. Well worth the $7!

Other items of note:
You may have noticed that the numbers before the header install were way down from the GIFO2 (almost 12/12). Bob, and the gang poured over the numbers and threw ideas around as to why this might be the case. The best theory we came up with relates to the STP correction factor; on this day, the factor was nearly 1:1. So, whatevier the dyno read is the number we've got. However, the GIFO2 had a significant factor applied (the ambient temps were 105f or so!). The thought is at the extreme temps, the correction overcompensates, thus yielding higher than normal numbers.

The other significantly more troubling theory relates to the GSM mod. As pointed out above, the tranny seems to react as though the mod was engaged even when it wasn't. This could indicate a problem that the computer is just handling by limiting output. I have no real proof of this, but I'm really not sure what else it could be. The dyno was calibrated correctly; I had the same gas in it, at the same level… any other thoughts?

In any case, its the relative changes that are important. This is precisely why we try to run one car, on the same day at basically the same time with many different setups. It is almost impossible to compare these numbers with the GIFO2 or GIFO1. There are just too many things that could be different. However, comparing runs made in short order, in a fairly controlled environment is, in my opinion, a very valid way to derive the conclusions (and questions) we now have.

Track data:
 
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#28 ·
noworries said:
What's the status of the high flow cats?
A work in progress. Magnaflow doesn't have a product that will work with out LX's. Last I heard, Josh (HHP) was expecting a donor stock exhaust system near the end of this month. At that point, he'll have the components needed to get with Magnaflow and potentially design a cat specifically for us. Depending on timing, the GIFO4 will probably include the cats, jet chip and hopefully a programmer.
 
#29 ·
hyperbolic said:
Suggestion for the next GIFO, the Jet chip. Lot of differing opinions and little hard data. Easy to install.
Convention says 100lbs = 1/10 second. I am huge, probably pushing 320 these days. gotls1 is a tiny lady; no doubt I've got her by 200ish lbs.

Also, I did get significant wheelspin each time. I hadn't figured out how to launch as she can, before the track closed. Combine those two factors and you've got your time difference.

One observation about engine temp. The first run with headers was at a lower temp then the runs with the 170deg stat and was not any better then the rest of the runs in that set at the usuall stock running temps.
Conventional wisdom says 10 degrees = 1% hp/trq. We should have seen better numbers. It could be, though that the temp was too cool. There seems to be a sweet spot with our Hemi's; right around 180ish.

STP correction factors that are not accurate doesn't seem to be a very reliable system of HP measurement.
It is just a theory that this was an issue. STP correction factors are widely used throughout the performance community. They've got to be worth something.

CoolVanilla, Beg gotls1 to share her secrets of taking a setup with 10 less HP and running 2 tenths quicker then you. There's not much to running a Mag down the track if you don't have tire spin.
Once rolling, your right. But, without a doubt there is skill and talent involved off the line. She has both in quantities, I have none of either.

The dyno runs are very well documented. It would be nice to have more documentation of the drag strip runs. You could get the barometer and humidity numbers off AOL weather or simular site, maybe before and after track times if it makes a difference. I just talked to a bracket racer who tells me that weather station data is being used to predict performance to a very accurate degree.
Feel like lending a hand? I know the NHRA offers correction calculations based on weather factors. As you point out, the info is available. All thats needed is a location (Sacramento Raceway), a time (see the table) and date (10/21) and you can find all the info you need for the calculator. I don't have time in the near future to do so... I'd love a helping hand on this...

Any detailed discussion of the GSM mod will probably never happen since details of the mod are not allowed on the forum.
Not sure what ya mean by this, but I'm pretty sure this isn't the thread to find out. You're more than welcome to discuss any details you wish; just don't post reverse engineered instructions and state you used the GSM instructions as your guide.
 
#30 ·
I did some googling on the AD stuff looking to do something in excel but I am not hat good at plugging numbers into a spread sheet and getting something that even comes close to a good number.

I am on the other hand looking into some DRag Racing logs books ( electronic ) that do standard evelation and weather correction. YOu enter all your run data with an AD ( for DA depending ) and it will very accuratly adjust your ET's and MPH to sea level making all things equal.

One software package was $90 I think, I am looking at a few others. If you drag race and like to have those kinds of weather numbers handy look into a weather station, you looking at 400+ for a good one but hell train it right and it will be predicting your et's to within .01

When I get my home machines up and working again ( firewall died ) I'll post up the links and stuff I have.

-Robert
 
#31 · (Edited)
CoolVanilla said;

"Feel like lending a hand? I know the NHRA offers correction calculations based on weather factors. As you point out, the info is available. All thats needed is a location (Sacramento Raceway), a time (see the table) and date (10/21) and you can find all the info you need for the calculator. I don't have time in the near future to do so... I'd love a helping hand on this..."

I'll see what I can do. Keeping track of the weather is the next step in my bracket racing adventure.
 
#33 ·
CoolVanilla said:
The 20" tire/rim combo measured 1/2" or so larger in diameter than the 18" stocks.

If this be the case, there can be only one logical explaination. These cars are apparantely the bastardized, in-bred offspring of a previous MOPAR, "Christine". These cars defy science, logic and conventional wisdom and have the ability to reduce or reverse the affects of most modifications from what I've seen.
The good news is that someday if your car is vandalized it will not only be able to repair itself but also track down and destroy the perpetrators. Look for this post coming soon!
 
#34 · (Edited)
density altitude

Density altitude in Sacramento on the day of the testing.

  1. Time .........DA in feet
  2. 8:50AM....... -103
  3. 9:50...... ......149
  4. 10:50 ..........492
  5. 11:50.......... 826
  6. 12:50 .........1045
  7. 1:50 ...........1206
  8. 2:50 ...........1298
  9. 3:50 ...........1309
  10. 4:50 ...........1309
  11. 5:50 ...........1194
  12. 6:50 ...........635
  13. 7:50 ...........423
  14. 8:50 ...........298
  15. 9:50 ............162
This data might be useful for comparing any subsequent runs at the strip.
 
#35 ·
2ndmag said:
The good news is that someday if your car is vandalized it will not only be able to repair itself but also track down and destroy the perpetrators.
ROFLMAO! :D
 
#36 ·
GIFO3: SVS dyno & Sacramento Raceway numbers

Finally got caught up enough on business to have some GIFO3 numbers and input to offer:

GSM mod: All runs, dyno and track, were made with the GSM torque mod on and and the fan switch on. Unlike Matt's torque mod, which is quirky and undependable, mine works perfectly each time. Whether it lowers E.T.s is still debatable, but it does give me full control of my car, allows me to do the precise amount of tire-warming burnout I choose, and, on a good, grippy, track, provides just the amount of wheelspin I'm looking for. My runs were consistent, and were respectable.

The cockpit-controlled GSM fan mod provides a tremendous advantage. Despite repeated back to back runs my coolant temp was never above 160 degrees as I staged, with 6 runs made Friday night and 9 on Saturday.

Here's the event breakdown:

1. SVS dyno: My best horsepower & torque numbers: 288.7 @ 5304, 304.8@ 4414

Test results:

A. The Racing Sports Akimoto Funnel Ram air filter seemed to prove the old adage that there's nothing like cubic inches - in this case air filtration area. Filter length choices for the Funnel Ram filters were listed as "6 inches" and "9 inches", but no charts showing precisely what was measured were found. Accordingly, I ordered the "6 inch" filter as the existing K&N RF-1014 filter measures 7 inches, measured at the filter material itself, and barely fits into the enclosure.

When Jason arrived at SVS with the filter, which I'd had shipped directly to him, it became obvious that Racing Sports Akimoto measures the entire component, which includes the mounting snout. Thus the filter element was significantly smaller overall than the K&N, with much less surface area through which to draw air. As a result the approx. 4hp loss with the small Funnel Ram filter element was surprising only in that it wasn't larger.

We hope to provide the 9-inch Funnel Ram filter for testing at GIFO4. That is Racing Sports Akimoto's largest filter, and if it can't keep up with the K&N filter element, then we can get that word out and save folks some money.

B. I tested another component that I'll withhold more comment on till CoolVanilla has time to work his magic analytical powers on the numbers.

2. Sacramento Raceway, Friday, October 21, 2005:

Best RT: .136
Best 60': Inop all night
Best 1/8: 9.063 @ 77.426
Best 1/4: 14.099 @ 98.896

3. Sacramento Raceway, Saturday, October 22, 2005. MOPAR MuscleCar Magic - nothing but Mopar iron allowed, with very few exceptions:

Best RT: .042
Best 60': 2.082
Best 1/8: 9.073 @ 77.644
Best 1/4: 14.103 @ 99.216

My 5.7L ran consistent 14.1s till the temp got into the mid- to upper-80s, then 14.2s for the remainder of the day. Made it to the final four dozen or so cars from the several hundred initial entrants (3rd round of bracket racing) before getting snookered by a blatant sand-bagger. An overall outstanding experience though, with the muscle cars I'd grown up with from the 60s & 70s in abundance. The smell of nitro and rubber, as the ground literally shook from the thunder of these magnificent original Hemis, took me back to the glory days. I get chills now simply recalling it.

A huge thanks to Jason, our one and only CoolVanilla, who put this all together and made it happen, to Matt Robertson who lent his support, knowledge and good cheer to the entire event, and to DiamondRMP for not only a smokin' deal on his R/T rims :), but great camaraderie and insightful analysis of the dyno data throughout the testing.

Sign me up for GIFO4, CV, I'll definitely be needing another fix by then.
:thumbs_u:
 
#40 ·
diamondrmp said:
It was great meeting everyone and exchanging ideas and thoughts. I'm looking forward to GIFO4!! By then I should have my Magnum back.
I see you did this in Sacremento, is the session open for visitors? I'm down the road in Modesto and would really like to learn more (and see & hear) about other Hemi's . . .
 
#44 ·
CoolVanilla captured by aliens?

CV asked me to let everyone know that he'll be back in stride with further analysis & results of GIFO3 testing in a week or so. Business and family commitments have had him overtasked of late.

Safe travels, friend. 'twil be good to have you back. :)
 
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