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Great Intake Face Off Post Exhaust - RESULTS

57K views 46 replies 33 participants last post by  Thrusst 
#1 · (Edited)
Test Information
Date: 8/12/05
Dyno Time: 12:00 - 5pm
Dyno Temp Range: 97 - 106 degrees F
Dyno Location: SVS Automotive Research and Development Dept, Sacramento (www.svsrnd.com)
Dyno Driver and test administrator: Bob Crespo of SVS R and D
Dynamometer: Superflow AutoDyn SF 840 Chassis
Dyno Setup: All tests were run with a fan blowing from the front of the vehicle as well as across the tail area.
Dyno Raw Data, WinDyn reader and Quicktime Movies of the ScanGauge during three different dyno runs:
https://mydata.datadepositbox.com/SS/SharedStorage.asp?id=11281128341219100fdc26c53e453e1d26c53454349848ad12294648416e
(enter your username, no password is required)

Results Summary

Lets get right to the numbers:



The following statements are my own. I've based these thoughts on 50+ dyno runs made with various hardware, conversations I've had with performance experts, vendors and manufacturers, comments made by other members, general feelings expressed by those present at the dyno and at the track and my own previous experiences. So, I want there to be no misunderstanding: what I'm about to say are my own opinions. The only facts we have are the numbers above. You are invited to draw your own conclusions, however I suggest you do so with care and attempt to realize the only thing we can know for sure is what the numbers show for this particular group of variables.

The results are simple. Aftermarket intakes for my 2005 Magnum RT do not offer any benefit, and in fact can adversely affect performance. This statement holds true for both pre as well as post exhaust results.

I've carefully checked and rechecked the numbers in the chart above. These numbers are accurate and I invite anyone so inclined to double-check me against the raw data you can download above. I highlighted in green the average that produced the highest hp and torque numbers. As you can see, these numbers were the result of a stock intake after a reset. However, it is extremely important to realize at this point that statistically speaking, these highlighted numbers represent no difference when compared to the stock intake before a reset, the Volant with no reset with fuse 17 installed, the Volant with no reset with fuse 17 removed and the Aircharger with no reset and fuse 17 removed..

To me, this is very important. It proves a number of key points:

1) Resetting the computer (PCM specifically) makes zero difference in WOT performance. Before the test, I gave the Volant over 500 miles to "burn in"; remember, Volant states 150 is sufficient. Also, I had over 2000 miles on the exhaust. The tests show that wiping the PCM of this "burn in" does not have any effect. IMHO, there in fact is no burn in.

2) Pulling fuse 17 does not affect performance.

3) Resetting the computer and/or pulling fuse 17 does not put the transmission into any sort of "limp mode".

4) The horsepower gains seen when comparing the pre and post exhaust results (approx 10hp) are solely do to the exhaust. The intakes make zero difference in either case.

These ascertains are bolstered by the runs made by MattRobertson and Calabahn after my tests. You'll find these numbers just under the first bold line in the chart. Two different cars, with two different intakes, both having thousands of miles on their respective exhausts and intakes showed little to no difference between themselves as well as when compared to all the data derived from my Magnum.

Now look at the Airaid. While statistically speaking the difference is minimal, you can see that this particular intake actually degraded performance. The only reason I can come up with for this is the relative filter size. It does appear slightly smaller and therefore might actually introduce a restriction. This, however, is just an observation on my part. In truth I do not have an explanation.

Lastly, take a look at the rewired numbers. This test was done because of the interest expressed here: http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=15895 After the rewire, the following was observed by those present:

1) There may have been a slightly smoother idle. The engine appeared to shake less. However, the difference within the car was not enough to be noticed.

2) The pitch of the engine seemed to raise. No hard core proof of that, but more than one person commented that, at idle the pitch seemed a touch higher.

3) Performance: yikes. Again while minimal, there was definitely a drop off in performance at WOT. For me, the smoother idle that may or may not exist in no way justifies this mod. Lower performance and a sure fire way to piss off your dealership equals a bad idea.

Oh yeah, one more thing: gotls1's Camaro is for real (results below the second line in the chart). Bob stated it was the best performance numbers he's seen on his dyno for a Camaro LS1. Watching that thing rev up and get stronger and stronger was a thrill. It's also important to realize it provided a sort of validation for the dyno itself. Gotls1 stated the last time she ran she got 369hp, but with a locked converter. To get 365 without the lock in 106 deg F weather most certainly should remove any concern that the dyno itself might have been an issue.

Well folks that's it. Take these results and use them as you see fit. I fully understand and expect there to be dissenting opinions and feelings. For me, however, this matter is closed. Until the two items I list below are addressed, I think we're basically stuck:

1) Nothing short of a full programmer is going to unlock this engine. Take a look at the ignition timing. We need a programmer that will allow us to advance that timing at WOT. Until we can do that, we are completely hamstrung.

2) New software for our transmissions. As you can see in the raw data, this transmission is just plain weird. It shifts differently from run to run. It downshifts at odd RPMs. The code inside the TCM kills performance between gears, apparently to smooth the shift and to limit stress on the gears (thanks Mercedes) ect…

I hope you've found this as educational as I have. When you boil it all away, these kinds of mods (exhaust and intake) are worth every penny if they help add to the experience of owning your LX. I love my Zoommers. Every time she fires up, I get this grin I can't hide. I love the way the K&N intake looks and sounds. I really enjoy popping that hood and showing off the Hemi and that purdy K&N under there. I take more pride in my Magnum because I know I've tweaked it to my tastes. For me, these reasons by themselves are enough to more than justify the purchase of the components. When a programmer becomes available, maybe then performance gains will help add to the value I've already got.

It was great hanging with the gang again, and meeting a couple of the young LX'ers (lil miss magnumdude and young Calabahn). We will be putting together another M&G soon, and yes it will be on a weekend so more of ya working stiff's can attend.

PS: We did make it to the track, but the temps prevented any real comparisons from being drawn from the previous Face Off. Track temps were right around 100degrees until 9pm when it "cooled" off to about 92. gotls1 made a run of 14.7 AND out 60'd a C5 Vette, but that was probably because he was sitting there spinning instead of movin down the track ;) Lots of video was taken and hopefully we'll have that up for all to see soon. In the mean time, enjoy the pics below.

The CV Mobile ready to go


Shot of the dyno computer


During a swap. From left to right: Bob, CoolVanilla, MattRoberston, magnumdude, lil miss magnumdude, Calabahn


Kaps installing the stock intake. Hey nice shirt CV!


CV, MR, and Cala trying to figure out why these intakes aren't yielding 400+ hp….


MR's DarthHemi strapped down and ready to run.


Mmmm love Darth's grill.


Darth's always watching (anyone see the camera?)


Bob getting Calabahn's baby ready to run


Get 'er done! Calabahns' ready to roll!


Move over boys, its the ladies time to play
 
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12
#2 ·
Love the plate.



Now she's just showing off


Ok… who let the Chevy get in the shot?


Enough of this heat! Lets go eat!


Don't forget to download the Quicktime vids of the ScanGauge thru an entire run if you'd like to see the timing curve. Find the link at the top of the first post.
 
#3 ·
Thanks, CV and all of you that have worked so hard to put these tests together.

This type of data is very helpful to me as I wait for a real programmer to tune my HemiC for more competition driving.

It's obvious that the original air intake supplies more than enough air for the engine, as it is now configured (my Volant does look neat, though!).

I agree about the wonky shift patterns for the tranny.

Again, a big thanks!
 
#6 ·
Once again, CV has given us all a lot of information and a lot of his time and effort. Thanks!

We learned a lot this time. There's really nothing left to argue about, in my opinion.

The running of additional Magnums found consistently similar results. One of those Magnums (mine) had a K&N intake on it that was guaranteed to give me 11 hp. So was I 11 horses over the other Magnums? Read the numbers. The fact that we had a stock Magnum with Zoomers, a Volant'd Magnum with Zoomers and a K&N Typhoon'd Magnum with Zoomers... and we all essentially had the same HP figures... leads me to the same conclusion CV has come to.

Intakes do nothing on this car except look cool and sound louder.

In terms of recovery of their reputation, the ball is now in the park of the manufacturers, and I have to say I am extremely disappointed with K&N in particular: A company that made claims which have been so far proven completely baseless and who, after numerous respectful requests for information explaining where we could have gone wrong, chose to ignore the matter entirely.
 
#7 ·
You guys have to have screwed up somewhere. I'm sure you must have done something wrong. I know that my intake is providing me with more HP than the stock inta.... wait a sec... I still have the stock intake... NEVER MIND! :p

Seriously... thanks for the info and all the effort. Good job. I don't understand the affect of switching the wires, but that's a discussion for another thread.
 
#13 ·
Funny, everybody keeps saying thanks for all the hard work......Me and lil miss 'dude had a blast!!!!!!!!! She didn't want to run across the street for a slice of pizza because she thought she might miss a run!! Great seeing "y'all" again. Hears to old friends and new. (calabahn jr and Mrs CV).
 
#15 ·
Both of these threads have been very informative and eye opening. I hope the manufacturers get a hold of these results and provide us with some insight.

Justin
 
#16 ·
I think the testing yesterday should put a nail in the "CAI adds horsepower" coffin, but I'm sure I'll be proved wrong. :roll: "Burn in" is a myth. The dyno is fine. No limp mode. Buy one because you like the sound or the way it looks - not because you think it'll help you beat that punk down the street's Mustang GT or Z28. Apparently the stock intake just isn't a restriction. Maybe if you got a larger throttle body or a different intake manifold, but I wouldn't get into that kind of stuff without a real programer like HP Tuners or LS1Edit. A Hypertech or Predator isn't going to cut it.

It was roughly a gahgillion degrees out at the track. Still fun, but it reminded me why I generally don't bother drag racing in August. Times were way up from last time, but started to come down a little as it cooled off a bit. We should do a track day in late September or October. Anyways, here's some video. Please right click and save as...

Run #1 - 15.2 at 94 mph I think - hard to read the board and I left the time slips in CV's car
http://www.splitsecondracing.net/wcgmp/Marguerite/8-12-05run1.wmv

Run #2 - 15.1 at 95?
http://www.splitsecondracing.net/wcgmp/Marguerite/8-12-05run2.wmv

The lovely and talented Mrs. CV - 15.0 at 93
http://www.splitsecondracing.net/wcgmp/Marguerite/8-12-05mrscv.wmv

No video of the 14.7 :(

CV - if there's any more video that you shot that you'd like a copy of, or if you'd like a higher res version, let me know.
 
#18 ·
gotls1 said:
Oh - one more thing. It's actually, CamAro, not camero. It's a common mistake...

And to those of you who didn't believe that a Camaro could hold the contents of 2 Magnums. :p
Doh, I forgot to check that... I knew I was gonna get it wrong; sawery. And I do have to give credit; that CamAro did hold my 20" wheel, three intakes, a toolbox, other crap and a cooler... although I don't think the person in the pasanger seat would have enjoyed the ride, and lets not talk about the back seat :lightsab:

Thanks for the vids! Did you check the memory area of the camera? I thought I did record your 14.7... maybe I just had it on the wrong setting?

fnkychkn, yeah basically this is exactly what I expected. The only surprise for me was the Airaid. I still don't really get why it turned in slightly lower numbers than the rest. My first thought was resitriction. My second thought was heat... but you can see that the other intakes had an issue with heat too, but still turned in higher numbers.

JustinHEMI04, don't hold your breath. We got blown off after the first tests, and I doubt they will even bother to blow us off this time. I will say Volant was the only company to express any kind of concern. They never did get back to me with definitive explanations, but at least they were willing to say they didn't know why we didn't get any improvements.

Thanks for all the kudos guys and gals, but again, it was a group effort. Sincerely, thanks to everyone that contributed financially, with parts and with suggestions.
 
#19 ·
CoolVanilla said:
Doh, I forgot to check that... I knew I was gonna get it wrong; sawery. And I do have to give credit; that CamAro did hold my 20" wheel, three intakes, a toolbox, other crap and a cooler... although I don't think the person in the pasanger seat would have enjoyed the ride, and lets not talk about the back seat :lightsab:

Thanks for the vids! Did you check the memory area of the camera? I thought I did record your 14.7... maybe I just had it on the wrong setting?
Hey man, the Camaro has never been about comfort. :lol:

Sure enough...the 14.7 is on the memory stick. If I can find my card reader (and anyone gives a crap haha), I'll post it up.
 
#20 · (Edited)
Good work. Hoped to see more of a variance this time around. We are truly dealing with a unique beast. Just happened to dyno my car today along with some other members from Texas. My best run was 264HP and 299lbs torq and I have the plastic K&N and 20" Zenettis. The high was was 290hp and 321lbs torq. Dont remember who laid that down though (JET CHIP).

Something interesting that came out of it was a A/F curve that dumps a massive amount of fuel after 4400 RPMs. At about 5500 RPMs the curve comes back to where it was when it initially dipped. I had one that went below a 10:1 ratio. It was so low, the dyno didnt register the actual number. Looking at my three, the higher the numbers, the lower the A/F ratio in this interval. Not only did my car do this but every car that hit the dyno. I think it was about six or seven of us. Here is a pic of one with the A/F. I dont know if this is some type of safe guard for the motor or what. Looking at it again, it looks like a tune that is expecting some type of forced induction. There is really no need for a naturally aspirated engine to run a curve like this. It would be great curve for a turbo that spooled at or above 3.5K RPMS.

So in other words, dont bother unless the MAP and ignition timing can be modified. I have two things to try but I cannot get a wiring diagram of the PCM and TCM for ****. I was able to hook up a timing controller for my Stratus with the same MAP derived system. Its currently advanced +18 degrees so these things can be done. Just need a diagram. Anyone know a dealer that will sell one? Look on this page to see the ICON controller. At the bottom, the controller is installed next to a Blaster coil from a MSD-6a ignition. You can see the wiring hacks to the left.
 
#22 ·
ChargerOsix said:
Good work. Hoped to see more of a variance this time around. We are truly dealing with a unique beast. Just happened to dyno my car today along with some other members from Texas. My best run was 264HP and 299lbs torq and I have the plastic K&N and 20" Zenettis. The high was was 290hp and 321lbs torq. Dont remember who laid that down though (JET CHIP).

Something interesting that came out of it was a A/F curve that dumps a massive amount of fuel after 4400 RPMs. At about 5500 RPMs the curve comes back to where it was when it initially dipped. I had one that went below a 10:1 ratio. It was so low, the dyno didnt register the actual number. Looking at my three, the higher the numbers, the lower the A/F ratio in this interval. Not only did my car do this but every car that hit the dyno. I think it was about six or seven of us. Here is a pic of one with the A/F. I dont know if this is some type of safe guard for the motor or what. Looking at it again, it looks like a tune that is expecting some type of forced induction. There is really no need for a naturally aspirated engine to run a curve like this. It would be great curve for a turbo that spooled at or above 3.5K RPMS.
If you run the 5.7's at 40-60 degrees F you'll see a huge increase in power. I'm not talking the usual 1-2% per ten degrees. When you get to 80-110 degrees the A/F goes into this pig rich state that robs all the power.

Someone needs to do some dyno runs at 40, 60, 80 and 100 degrees and capture the A/f ratio. I've noticed guys with headers seem to lean out some even in the heat. That might explain the large gains they're getting.

I'm in the desert and I have 2 of these 10,000 CFM coolers that can drop 110 degree air to 60 degrees when the humidity is in the single digits. Too bad the 60-70 degree output is also accompanied with a 60-70% humidity.

 
#23 ·
MattRobertson said:
Once again, CV has given us all a lot of information and a lot of his time and effort. Thanks!

We learned a lot this time. There's really nothing left to argue about, in my opinion.

The running of additional Magnums found consistently similar results. One of those Magnums (mine) had a K&N intake on it that was guaranteed to give me 11 hp. So was I 11 horses over the other Magnums? Read the numbers. The fact that we had a stock Magnum with Zoomers, a Volant'd Magnum with Zoomers and a K&N Typhoon'd Magnum with Zoomers... and we all essentially had the same HP figures... leads me to the same conclusion CV has come to.

Intakes do nothing on this car except look cool and sound louder.

In terms of recovery of their reputation, the ball is now in the park of the manufacturers, and I have to say I am extremely disappointed with K&N in particular: A company that made claims which have been so far proven completely baseless and who, after numerous respectful requests for information explaining where we could have gone wrong, chose to ignore the matter entirely.
I bet K&N never tested their intake HP increase on an LX. The marketing guys probably use that figure because it is an average of what they have found in the past. My 88 5.0 did show that level of increase on the dyno but onviously the stock LX intake is much more efficient.

That is why with the two cars I have modified in the past, 5.o and SS, I waited for a reputable place to find the "kinks" in the system before I spent my money. Getting performance out of a car is like a very long hose with many connectors. You have to find where the water is leaking and where the kinks in the hoses are.

J. Bittle American (JBA) was the best for Mustangs back in the late 80s and everyone know how good John Lingentfelter was with the LT1 motor.

Of course if you are well-heeled and blessed with patience and time you can search out the kinks yourself.
 
#26 ·
Jason and gang

Hats off to you for helping all of us know what is what in the mod department. I'd be interested to here the response from the aftermarket wonks on what their reasons are for lack of fulfilling their guarantees- not that what they say will mean anything. Again thanks for all the hard work and fun
 
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