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Great Intake Face Off Post Exhaust - RESULTS

57K views 46 replies 33 participants last post by  Thrusst 
#1 · (Edited)
Test Information
Date: 8/12/05
Dyno Time: 12:00 - 5pm
Dyno Temp Range: 97 - 106 degrees F
Dyno Location: SVS Automotive Research and Development Dept, Sacramento (www.svsrnd.com)
Dyno Driver and test administrator: Bob Crespo of SVS R and D
Dynamometer: Superflow AutoDyn SF 840 Chassis
Dyno Setup: All tests were run with a fan blowing from the front of the vehicle as well as across the tail area.
Dyno Raw Data, WinDyn reader and Quicktime Movies of the ScanGauge during three different dyno runs:
https://mydata.datadepositbox.com/SS/SharedStorage.asp?id=11281128341219100fdc26c53e453e1d26c53454349848ad12294648416e
(enter your username, no password is required)

Results Summary

Lets get right to the numbers:



The following statements are my own. I've based these thoughts on 50+ dyno runs made with various hardware, conversations I've had with performance experts, vendors and manufacturers, comments made by other members, general feelings expressed by those present at the dyno and at the track and my own previous experiences. So, I want there to be no misunderstanding: what I'm about to say are my own opinions. The only facts we have are the numbers above. You are invited to draw your own conclusions, however I suggest you do so with care and attempt to realize the only thing we can know for sure is what the numbers show for this particular group of variables.

The results are simple. Aftermarket intakes for my 2005 Magnum RT do not offer any benefit, and in fact can adversely affect performance. This statement holds true for both pre as well as post exhaust results.

I've carefully checked and rechecked the numbers in the chart above. These numbers are accurate and I invite anyone so inclined to double-check me against the raw data you can download above. I highlighted in green the average that produced the highest hp and torque numbers. As you can see, these numbers were the result of a stock intake after a reset. However, it is extremely important to realize at this point that statistically speaking, these highlighted numbers represent no difference when compared to the stock intake before a reset, the Volant with no reset with fuse 17 installed, the Volant with no reset with fuse 17 removed and the Aircharger with no reset and fuse 17 removed..

To me, this is very important. It proves a number of key points:

1) Resetting the computer (PCM specifically) makes zero difference in WOT performance. Before the test, I gave the Volant over 500 miles to "burn in"; remember, Volant states 150 is sufficient. Also, I had over 2000 miles on the exhaust. The tests show that wiping the PCM of this "burn in" does not have any effect. IMHO, there in fact is no burn in.

2) Pulling fuse 17 does not affect performance.

3) Resetting the computer and/or pulling fuse 17 does not put the transmission into any sort of "limp mode".

4) The horsepower gains seen when comparing the pre and post exhaust results (approx 10hp) are solely do to the exhaust. The intakes make zero difference in either case.

These ascertains are bolstered by the runs made by MattRobertson and Calabahn after my tests. You'll find these numbers just under the first bold line in the chart. Two different cars, with two different intakes, both having thousands of miles on their respective exhausts and intakes showed little to no difference between themselves as well as when compared to all the data derived from my Magnum.

Now look at the Airaid. While statistically speaking the difference is minimal, you can see that this particular intake actually degraded performance. The only reason I can come up with for this is the relative filter size. It does appear slightly smaller and therefore might actually introduce a restriction. This, however, is just an observation on my part. In truth I do not have an explanation.

Lastly, take a look at the rewired numbers. This test was done because of the interest expressed here: http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=15895 After the rewire, the following was observed by those present:

1) There may have been a slightly smoother idle. The engine appeared to shake less. However, the difference within the car was not enough to be noticed.

2) The pitch of the engine seemed to raise. No hard core proof of that, but more than one person commented that, at idle the pitch seemed a touch higher.

3) Performance: yikes. Again while minimal, there was definitely a drop off in performance at WOT. For me, the smoother idle that may or may not exist in no way justifies this mod. Lower performance and a sure fire way to piss off your dealership equals a bad idea.

Oh yeah, one more thing: gotls1's Camaro is for real (results below the second line in the chart). Bob stated it was the best performance numbers he's seen on his dyno for a Camaro LS1. Watching that thing rev up and get stronger and stronger was a thrill. It's also important to realize it provided a sort of validation for the dyno itself. Gotls1 stated the last time she ran she got 369hp, but with a locked converter. To get 365 without the lock in 106 deg F weather most certainly should remove any concern that the dyno itself might have been an issue.

Well folks that's it. Take these results and use them as you see fit. I fully understand and expect there to be dissenting opinions and feelings. For me, however, this matter is closed. Until the two items I list below are addressed, I think we're basically stuck:

1) Nothing short of a full programmer is going to unlock this engine. Take a look at the ignition timing. We need a programmer that will allow us to advance that timing at WOT. Until we can do that, we are completely hamstrung.

2) New software for our transmissions. As you can see in the raw data, this transmission is just plain weird. It shifts differently from run to run. It downshifts at odd RPMs. The code inside the TCM kills performance between gears, apparently to smooth the shift and to limit stress on the gears (thanks Mercedes) ect…

I hope you've found this as educational as I have. When you boil it all away, these kinds of mods (exhaust and intake) are worth every penny if they help add to the experience of owning your LX. I love my Zoommers. Every time she fires up, I get this grin I can't hide. I love the way the K&N intake looks and sounds. I really enjoy popping that hood and showing off the Hemi and that purdy K&N under there. I take more pride in my Magnum because I know I've tweaked it to my tastes. For me, these reasons by themselves are enough to more than justify the purchase of the components. When a programmer becomes available, maybe then performance gains will help add to the value I've already got.

It was great hanging with the gang again, and meeting a couple of the young LX'ers (lil miss magnumdude and young Calabahn). We will be putting together another M&G soon, and yes it will be on a weekend so more of ya working stiff's can attend.

PS: We did make it to the track, but the temps prevented any real comparisons from being drawn from the previous Face Off. Track temps were right around 100degrees until 9pm when it "cooled" off to about 92. gotls1 made a run of 14.7 AND out 60'd a C5 Vette, but that was probably because he was sitting there spinning instead of movin down the track ;) Lots of video was taken and hopefully we'll have that up for all to see soon. In the mean time, enjoy the pics below.

The CV Mobile ready to go


Shot of the dyno computer


During a swap. From left to right: Bob, CoolVanilla, MattRoberston, magnumdude, lil miss magnumdude, Calabahn


Kaps installing the stock intake. Hey nice shirt CV!


CV, MR, and Cala trying to figure out why these intakes aren't yielding 400+ hp….


MR's DarthHemi strapped down and ready to run.


Mmmm love Darth's grill.


Darth's always watching (anyone see the camera?)


Bob getting Calabahn's baby ready to run


Get 'er done! Calabahns' ready to roll!


Move over boys, its the ladies time to play
 
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#27 ·
Thanks for all the great info. Basically, until we can control the computer, we are not going to get a lot of bang for the buck.

Great Job!
 
#28 ·
keith the cop said:
How about the #'s being almost identical for Stock Exhaust to the Zoomer's car?
Actually, we all had Zoomers on. Calabahn had Zoomers and a stock intake, CV had Zoomers and a variety of intakes, and I had Zoomers and a Typhoon.

We baically all showed about 10 hp over the previous set of numbers and, given that we had the intake variations we did, the ~10 horses seem to be coming exclusively from the exhaust.

It sorta looks like we had this planned out - 3 Magnums, same aftermarket exhaust, 3 different intakes but unless I'm mistaken (and God knows it wouldn't be the first time) it just worked out that way. Two other Magnums could have been dyno'd but we ran out of time and patience, given that dinner was beckoning and by that time the garage resembled a Suzy-Bake oven that someone's little brother had parked his favorite Hot Wheels in.
 
#29 ·
I've had my Aircharger for a couple weeks now and while the Hp increase may not be there it does look cool and after logging about 300 highway miles with the cruise set at 72mph i'm getting mileage in the 26mpg range which is an improvement over the 24mpg that I was getting pre-CAI.

Buy them for the sound, looks and, in my case mileage, seems to be the moral of the story.
 
#30 ·
MCaesar said:
I bet K&N never tested their intake HP increase on an LX.
In response to the first FACE-Off, K&N responded with a pat-answer email saying they did test it, and they went out and tested it again and got more than the advertised gains.

No details of any kind, and no response to numerous followup emails sent by forum members.

Check the GIFO results thread. CV posted his communique and their response in its entirety. It was an insult to our intelligence in my opinion and made it look as if they have something to hide and know it.
 
#31 ·
it seems that the intakes didn't do much, but the exhaust added about 10 hp. the biggest thing i can feel on my car is a change in engine temp and air temp. i made two 1/4 mile passes with mine bone stock. on a cold motor, i ran 14.28 @ 99. my second pass was 20 minutes later with a hot motor and ran 14.66 @ 97. air temp was at 79.

if a programmer can lower the engines running temp to 180-185, you should see some gains.
 
#32 ·
CV,
Thanks for your work in putting this together again. Some DC engineers may be having this thread added to their personnel file, to prove they got it right. Hats off to them for getting it right for most people, I like the sound of the Volant and Bola even if no real gains.
 
#34 · (Edited)
Is anyone going to Email K&N and the others and give them the results? I've always believed in K&N until I had the last time I had one. Had one on my Dodge truck and I didn't think I gained any power and 1 year later the thing broke and I was taking in straight air no filter for god knows how long.
I don't like how they say you gain 20 hp and in reality you gain none. Do u think they figure that people just won't check "test"?

I do have the drop in on my mag. Maybe we should test that against a standard cheap filter. Hmm..

Thanks guys great work, probably saved me 300 bucks!
 
#35 ·
jarrodlaws said:
I do have the drop in on my mag. Maybe we should test that against a standard cheap filter. Hmm..
Well, we actually did exactly that in the first test. Bet you can guess the result...

I'm all for contacting K&N again. But, if anything they should have been all over the first test; it is completely unrealistic to expect customers to need an exhaust system to attain their stated HP gains. IMHO, we went overboard to try and validate their claims. They've made their statement, and I've heard it loud and clear. If they ever want my business and support again, its going to take nothing short of an apology for the initial blowoff, followed by an explanation, and then an offer to pay for a rerun of the test on my Magnum with a K&N representative present showing me, Bob and everyone else what we did "wrong" the first two times around.
 
#36 ·
Yup, I contacted them as well with a very polite email and I got no response after the 1st test. I jsut ordered a drop in, but past $35.95 I wouldnt give them a dime.
 
#37 ·
Many folks have once again asked, "After all this, what are you going to do CV?" Truth be told, I'm gonna stick with the stock box for now. My thinking is as follows:

1) We've seen zero increase in performance with these after market boxes, given our current limitations (PCM, TCM).

2) MPG, this may take a bit more convincing, but I've now had the stock box in for a couple of days and I'm without a doubt getting better gas mileage. It has been cooler this weekend, so that might be the cause but time will tell.

3) The more I learn, the less I like oil type filters. They may breath better longer, but I continually hear from experienced folks how much oil gets sucked down into the crankcase and sludges up stuff down there. I think our very own Old Navy has been saying something like that since day one.

4) Truth be told, I'm holding out hope MAGNUM P.I. gets his hood functional, and that he utilizes the stock box. See here for the details: http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=15061&page=2&pp=40 To my way of thinking, after having gone thru all this, a functional hood scoop might just be the ticket (once we get a true programmer that allows us to take advantage of such things).

So thats my story, and I'm sticking too it. The ego part of me still pulls me to one of the "cool" looking and sounding options, but the logical side keeps bringing me back to the stock box. Besides, if I run the stock box I can sell these other intakes to then be able to buy MAGNUM's hood... anyone wanna buy a Volant or K&N Aircharger? ;)
 
#38 ·
The Charger SRT8 claims to have a functional hood scoop. Now they don't say if that is for air intake (and thus possibly more HP at high speeds) or if it is just for bringing cool air into the engine compartment.
 
#39 · (Edited)
Is it me or do I see a difference in the cars tested w/ an aftermarket exhaust(zoomers, etc). CV, do you have an aftermarket exhaust on your car?
It seems to me(I'm no expert by any means) that in order for improved performance(airflow) from a CAI you need to improve the performance(exhaust flow) of the other side, the exhaust....
& thereby better HP...
 
#40 ·
CV, with Zoomers, could you hear a difference with your aftermarket CAI's, namely the Volant and your K&N? Do you think that the Mopar CAI would have made you smile more? Have you done enough driving using any intake with your Zoomers to see a gain in MPG or are you just stomping the pedal too much to hear that sweet sweet exhaust at WOT? Thanks
 
#42 ·
HH, before the dyno day I was pretty sure I could not hear anything coming from the Volant over the Zoomers at WOT. The dB meter used dyno day, however, pretty convincingly showed marked differences between the intakes tested. Now that I've had the stock box on again for a while, I'm sure there is less in cab noise (I actually think I prefer it; you really hear the grumble from the exhaust; it just sounds meaner without the sucking sound coming from up front).

Based on what we saw during both tests, I'd bet the Mopar would have come in higher than the K&N (in terms of in cab noise).

As far as MPG... that is really tough to define. It *seems* like I'm getting better MPG with the stock box in now. However, it has been considerably cooler the past few days, and I've been doing a ton of freeway driving. I'm afraid this MPG thing is just too amorphous to definitively say one way or another; you're just gonna need to experiment for yourself on this one.
 
#43 ·
CoolVanilla said:
As far as MPG... that is really tough to define.
Well nigh impossible for this bunch here I think. We'd have to find someone dedicated to driving through a set course using a certain measured speed.

Or something. I can't get more than a stop sign or two down the road before I succumb to the need to hear those Zoomers bark on launch...
 
#44 ·
Incredible work you folks did!!!

While I agree that the DC engineers should be congratulated on 'getting it right', your results also tell me that the people who originally wrote this article in Popular HotRodding more than a year ago certainly got their analysis of our Hemi engines correct when they wrote:
The intake manifold itself met some pretty steep design criteria. Not the least was that it must not cause an excessive restriction to airflow. This requirement had to be met while keeping noise to a minimum and packaging the whole deal as compactly as possible. The resulting intake looks like a work of art for the end user and a nightmare for the tool and die maker. The system has a tuned length from the filter to the plenum and from here each port runner to valve is a tuned length. Computer modeling and dyno testing has allowed the ports, plenum and filter-to-plenum runner length and diameter/volume to be sized near optimally for a wide power band consistent with street performance needs. The end product proved capable of delivering cooler air than an aluminum manifold while only restricting the intake port 10 percent at full valve lift. That is about the same as a good aftermarket performance intake.
and
Unlike an LS6, which has a mass air system that allows the computer to adjust the fuel flow for any given airflow so that the mixture is always right (theoretically at least), the Hemi has a speed density system. This means that any increase in airflow into the engine goes unseen by the rest of the system. If a modification is done that increases mass airflow, such as a cold-air package, the computer has to be reprogrammed accordingly.
now... where did I put that subscription form... and that copy of "Motor Design and Definition of Terms for Dummys"
 
#46 ·
CoolVanilla said:
...............1) Nothing short of a full programmer is going to unlock this engine. Take a look at the ignition timing. We need a programmer that will allow us to advance that timing at WOT. Until we can do that, we are completely hamstrung...............
thank you, i've said this from day one and still stand by it.....the oe ecu is smarter then some give it credit

although, this is not to say money is being wasted by getting i/h/e....those who have it are pretty much ready to go, once a programmable tuner is release
 
#47 ·
I'd like to thank you too - I was just about to go buy a K&N. I have always believed more air out requires more air in. If, as it has now been proven twice, there is no gain, then I'll stay with just the Zoomers.

I keep waiting for the guy who dynoed me to send the results via email, and it's not happening. Next time I go into work I'll scan the results so I can post them on the forum. I got 302.2 on one run, then it dropped to 295.9 (Zoomers only mod) but I think it was quite a bit cooler than it has been for any of these runs you guys have posted. I only ran it twice because the car was not happy about what it was doing.

R
 
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