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Thread: Water pumps

  1. #16
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    See I have worked for a local city as the diesel mechanic for many years and my primary Vehicles were Rescue Squad fire trucks and police cars. So the way the City Works if I was replacing the water pump then it got new hoses and anything within reach was replaced. Therefore my question and was trained that way sort of (Company Policy)

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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay727 View Post
    If you focus on the water pump only. When you replace it what about the o-ring behind the timing cover? It gets disturbed when the pump is taken off. So why not take the timing cover off to replace that o-ring.
    Then while you're in there, hmm theres the timing chain and tensioner, should you replace that too?

    Why put a new pump on and have that o-ring leak...

    When I rebuilt my engine it had a newer pump on it. I replaced it only because there are two types of o-rings for the pump and no parts stores from Advance auto to Napa stock the correct one. They all have the other one.
    So I got a new pump with a new o-ring, this o-ring also fit my old pump.

    And if you do the pump should you be like the ford guys with the 302 or 351 and replace the water pump bolts even though theres nothing wrong with them.... you gotta replace the bolts.... with ARP stainless.
    No because the FSM doesn't say it needs replacement with water pump R&R...at least on the 5.7. Not sure if we are talking the same engine?

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by CURLY View Post
    See I have worked for a local city as the diesel mechanic for many years and my primary Vehicles were Rescue Squad fire trucks and police cars. So the way the City Works if I was replacing the water pump then it got new hoses and anything within reach was replaced. Therefore my question and was trained that way sort of (Company Policy)

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    I can't argue with that policy....and honestly if the hoses are over 5+yrs I might replace them too....Some of it comes down to how hard they are to access/replace.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chase300 View Post
    No because the FSM doesn't say it needs replacement with water pump R&R...at least on the 5.7. Not sure if we are talking the same engine?
    Well the FSM also doesn't say to replace the water pump when you have the fans out either.

  5. #20
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    The statement that there is no precedence for this and that no other discipline does this is not really correct. I used to be in the truck rental and leasing business, and there are lots of parts replaced due to mileage intervals - whether they show signs of failure or not. It's less expensive in the long run to replace the part when the truck is in for regular service, than have it down on the side of the road. And then there's that other discipline called airplane maintenance - they certainly replace parts before they wear out! I know it's not a fair comparison (airplanes vs. autos), but this practice IS done in other maintenance disciplines.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by RDT View Post
    The statement that there is no precedence for this and that no other discipline does this is not really correct. I used to be in the truck rental and leasing business, and there are lots of parts replaced due to mileage intervals - whether they show signs of failure or not. It's less expensive in the long run to replace the part when the truck is in for regular service, than have it down on the side of the road. And then there's that other discipline called airplane maintenance - they certainly replace parts before they wear out! I know it's not a fair comparison (airplanes vs. autos), but this practice IS done in other maintenance disciplines.
    Ha. I always think about mentioning FAA but I just lurk and watch the entertainment.


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  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by RDT View Post
    The statement that there is no precedence for this and that no other discipline does this is not really correct. I used to be in the truck rental and leasing business, and there are lots of parts replaced due to mileage intervals - whether they show signs of failure or not. It's less expensive in the long run to replace the part when the truck is in for regular service, than have it down on the side of the road. And then there's that other discipline called airplane maintenance - they certainly replace parts before they wear out! I know it's not a fair comparison (airplanes vs. autos), but this practice IS done in other maintenance disciplines.
    Quote Originally Posted by DBL.DWN View Post
    Ha. I always think about mentioning FAA but I just lurk and watch the entertainment.


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    Where do you think the parts replacement protocol I'm eluding to comes from?

    The replacement, or lack thereof of parts that are still serviceable is standard procedure within the Aircraft / Aerospace Industry. Brand new parts have zero integrity, whereas a part that's been in service for some time has demonstrated and measurable integrity / reliability. Active electronic components are subject to a rigorous burn-in process to prove their functionality / air-worthiness before they even get on the parts shelf.

    Brand new passive / structural parts are not "simply installed". They too are analyzed (including ultrasound / X-ray) looking for voids (for example) that might cause failure. The whole process of design, manufacturing, testing and monitoring of all parts is understandably rigorous.

    Finally, parts that are in service are removed and replaced periodically with other (possibly new) parts, which are once again analyzed / tested and put back on the parts shelf...cause they have proven their integrity / reliability. At some point, based on rigid criteria derived from rigorous testing (to failure or MTBF), parts are scrapped / recycled.

    In some areas of the world, there is a growing problem with those "scrapped parts" being resold by miscreants to other flying operations who do not hold to the same laws of safety / integrity.
    Last edited by Hemissary; 05-16-2019 at 01:09 PM.
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  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay727 View Post
    If you focus on the water pump only. When you replace it what about the o-ring behind the timing cover? It gets disturbed when the pump is taken off. So why not take the timing cover off to replace that o-ring.
    Then while you're in there, hmm theres the timing chain and tensioner, should you replace that too?

    Why put a new pump on and have that o-ring leak...

    When I rebuilt my engine it had a newer pump on it. I replaced it only because there are two types of o-rings for the pump and no parts stores from Advance auto to Napa stock the correct one. They all have the other one.
    So I got a new pump with a new o-ring, this o-ring also fit my old pump.

    And if you do the pump should you be like the ford guys with the 302 or 351 and replace the water pump bolts even though theres nothing wrong with them.... you gotta replace the bolts.... with ARP stainless.
    Note that O-rings specifically are reusable, many times in fact. Again, the logic that it "must be replaced" once disassembled has no basis in fact...its (again) a touchie-feelie thing :^)

  9. #24
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    I remember the day I started as a city mechanic and the fire chief came down to meet me and he put his finger in my chest and said my guys can only do their job if they can get there, and he said keep it like new and ready to roll!

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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hemissary View Post
    Note that O-rings specifically are reusable, many times in fact. Again, the logic that it "must be replaced" once disassembled has no basis in fact...its (again) a touchie-feelie thing :^)
    So you're saying an o ring that you've never seen is reuseable?
    we're talking about a car engine. If it has enough miles to require a water pump replacement you can take the timing cover off and find the o ring has flattened out and has become stiff.

    It's a car for Christ's sake, not an airplane, not an ambulance or a firetruck.

    And mr contradiction here, you think everything around it must be replaced. So the timing cover o ring gets loosened then retightened but its so important to replace the water pump but not an o ring that the coolant passes through...
    This is rocket science thinking, why not pull the timing cover and replace the other o ring. And while you're there change the timing chain and tensioner. Might as well do the drive belt and it's tensioner while you're there and the idler pulley... Because you're there.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay727 View Post
    So you're saying an o ring that you've never seen is reuseable?
    we're talking about a car engine. If it has enough miles to require a water pump replacement you can take the timing cover off and find the o ring has flattened out and has become stiff.

    It's a car for Christ's sake, not an airplane, not an ambulance or a firetruck.

    And mr contradiction here, you think everything around it must be replaced. So the timing cover o ring gets loosened then retightened but its so important to replace the water pump but not an o ring that the coolant passes through...
    This is rocket science thinking, why not pull the timing cover and replace the other o ring. And while you're there change the timing chain and tensioner. Might as well do the drive belt and it's tensioner while you're there and the idler pulley... Because you're there.
    Yes. On many camshaft replacements I've carefully removed the O-ring on the backside of the timing cover and left the O-ring attached to the oil pan / block face interface. Come time to reinstall the cover, I simply push the O-ring back into the groove and bolt it up. Result; no leaks...ever. Same with O-rings on water pumps, intake manifolds, valve covers, etcetera.

    Such is the advantage of modern design that utilizes high quality (rubber / nitrile / silicone) O-rings over traditional gasket materials.

    Note that it is well-known that the timing chain tensioner assembly has demonstrated premature failure on many engines. I strongly recommend replacing the tensioner plate assembly, especially(!) if it is a 5.7 engine with one meant for the 6.1 engine (has one extra leaf spring) every time the timing cover is removed.


    Last edited by Hemissary; 05-21-2019 at 10:52 AM.

  12. #27
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    You are right in that there is a normal life-span for mechanical assemblies...they would follow what is called the bathtub curve.
    That is a high fail rate likely very early on in its life, due typically to manufacture error/piece part failure...then failures fall to very low over its normal life span and then rise again as the component reaches end of life as piece parts fail.
    Now what is considered normal life span is a question for the manufacturer and what they have designed it to be.
    I'm sure they didn't design the 4.7L water pump in my '01 Durango to go over 300K miles...yet it did, so an outlier?
    Conversely we know the pump that failed in my '14 Hemi certainly was designed to last longer than 2 yrs and 38,000 miles and to that FCA extended the water pump warranty on my '14 to 7 yrs, 150,000 miles. So I would take that as the average expected lifespan designed into the factory water pump.

    As Hemissary is pointing out a water pump or component that has been running fine for say a couple of years or even a few years has better odds of providing reliable service than a brand new part...as the new part could have a failure early on.
    Happened to me with a Mitsu 4G63 engine, I replaced a perfectly fine water pump as I was replacing the timing belt and I was already in there. Well the new pump had a defect and failed within 1,000 miles. I got a replacement for free under warranty...but still had to go through all the labor again to replace and on a 4G63 engine, that is a pain!
    Also a lot of components do give some warning of failure prior to complete failure. Water pumps for example either leak from seal going bad or squeak as bearing starts to fail. You should have plenty of warning of impending water pump failure.
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  13. #28
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    I have a pump and hoses in my inventory of parts. I bought them to make sure I had them if and when a failure occurred. Well that was 5 years ago and they are still on the shelf. Don't change parts for the sake of changing them but if you are concerned about failures, buy the part and shelve it.

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  14. #29
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    The exception to this thinking is the air line industry where they replace parts when they reach a point in their "normal" service life. That is one reason airplanes are so reliable. That is also the practice in nuclear power plant maintenance. Many critical parts are not "run to failure" If a part can fail and shut down the power plant or if it is a safety related part, it's replaced before its normal life time. Seal failure and pump impeller erosion is a concern on some cars, maybe not on ours.

  15. #30
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    Agree aviation is a bit different especially when you are 30,000 ft above the ground in something that doesn't really glide all that well if it loses power.
    At least in a car you can pull to the side of the road without much drama.
    Fleets can have the same advantage...where you know the normal service life of components and can then be proactive in component repair and replacement before having an actual failure.

    I ran the tensioner beyond the factory recommended 100K change interval and it finally failed very close to 150,000 miles. Problem was I was an hour away from home and had to do a road side repair as the pulley locked up from bearing failure. Annoyingly it did not provide any real notice of impending failure.
    So I now follow the 100K change interval for that and the idler pulley.

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