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  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by WontStopTheFUnk View Post
    Take a look at mellings warranty... thought it was pretty amusing, especially the bolded part lol

    Anyone ever done a labor claim before?




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    Lol.
    I can read all of that in so many different ways, but they all come down to your ****ed.

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  2. #62
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    Hey guys. So he seems to be fairly convinced it’s the oil pump. I think he wants to replace it while tackling the leak coming from the front.

    Would you all recommend I go with another Melling M452 oil pump (which Is in there now) or would you all recommend I go with an OEM dodge oil pump??


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  3. #63
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    After reading your questions regarding what pump to get, it prompted me to find this thread...

    First off, your video shows that excessive lash due to lack of oil (pressure) is across all lifters, so not a lifter issue. Secondly, although the gerotor gear assembly within an oil pump can be damaged by ingesting debris, it continues to provide significant pressure. If debris from the previous lifter problem(s) you experienced makes its way into the relief valve bore (spring loaded - governs max oil pressure) that is located within the oil pump next to the gear drive and holds the relief valve open - even a tiny bit - not only will you experience low oil pressure but any (hot) oil in the pump cavity / assembly will drain back into the pan when the vehicle is shut off.

    During start-up, with the relief valve open and now sucking air, the gerotor assembly will have a very difficult time lifting oil out of the pan to first prime the pump and then supply the rest of the oil galleys.

    Some other possibilities:
    - debris partially blocking / blocking oil galleys
    - Oil pick-up tube / O-ring issue / blockage

    NOTE: you can pretty well confirm a relief valve issue (open) by holding the gas pedal to the floor and cranking the engine briefly while watching the actual oil pressure value on the EVIC. If it stays at 0psi, either the oil pump is dry or the oil pressure sending unit is giving a false reading...
    Last edited by Hemissary; 09-17-2018 at 02:31 PM.
    2005 Magnum RT---Viper Venom Red----440ci Aluminum block----Short Runner Valve Intake--410mm BAER 6S Monoblock Extreme--Eibach Multi-Pro 2

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  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hemissary View Post
    After reading your questions regarding what pump to get, it prompted me to find this thread...

    First off, your video shows that excessive lash due to lack of oil (pressure) is across all lifters, so not a lifter issue. Secondly, although the gerotor gear assembly within an oil pump can be damaged by ingesting debris, it continues to provide significant pressure. If debris from the previous lifter problem(s) you experienced makes its way into the relief valve bore (spring loaded - governs max oil pressure) that is located within the oil pump next to the gear drive and holds the relief valve open - even a tiny bit - not only will you experience low oil pressure but any (hot) oil in the pump cavity / assembly will drain back into the pan when the vehicle is shut off.

    During start-up, with the relief valve open and now sucking air, the gerotor assembly will have a very difficult time lifting oil out of the pan to first prime the pump and then supply the rest of the oil galleys.

    Some other possibilities:
    - debris partially blocking / blocking oil galleys
    - Oil pick-up tube / O-ring issue / blockage

    NOTE: you can pretty well confirm a relief valve issue (open) by holding the gas pedal to the floor and cranking the engine briefly while watching the actual oil pressure value on the EVIC. If it stays at 0psi, either the oil pump is dry or the oil pressure sending unit is giving a false reading...
    I wish there was some sort of indication of when things are edited.. I have noticed you like to go back and critique your posts, so I always have to double and triple read lol. Thank you very much for the input, I was waiting for you to hop in earlier in the thread then totally forgot about it.

    What are the odds of debris making it into pump/pressure relieve valve assembly? We did everything I can think of to help minimize left over debris. New oil pump, new pick up tube, oil pan removed and cleaned. One thing I did notice, though, when I changed the oil at 500 miles after repair, my magnetic drain plug looked like a damn porcupine with all the metal on it. Not sure if it was new metal or old debris from previous failure. I cleaned off plug real good and did oil change. She only lasted another 1000 miles.

    When the failure occurred, I did see pressure go up to 27 psi, but that was the highest it went at all on way home. Your theory of the top end and prime bleeding down makes sense. I literally had 0 noise... until I let it sit for an hour... I was convinced it was probably bad sender... started her up to let my pops hear it and confirm engine sounds good.. she started nice and smooth and then within about 5-10 seconds BAM, She got loud as hell. It was pretty clear she wasn’t coming back in my driveway. She only ran for about 1 minute in this condition and was not driven. I’m hoping everything is safe bearing wise, if the failure is the pump.

    Pardon my ignorance... but... how in the world will holding the gas pedal to the floor and cranking it show if it’s the oil pressure relief, dry pump or bad sending unit?? And unfortunately I don’t have the ability to read my evic, I don’t have the steering wheel controls. I just so happened to be logging for Johan when the failure happened and I added the oil pressure PID to my logging, so I have it all recorded. I was using my laptop to measure and monitor oil pressure. Unfortunately with the diablo set up, I think the car has to be running before connecting. Manual gauge would be best bet, still confused on diag process for this one though?


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  5. #65
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    BY THE WAY GUYS - UPDATE. I bit the bullet, hoping for the best, and bought a new OEM Mopar oil pump made in good ole South Korea. Vehicle was towed up to dealership yesterday evening.

    I did notice coolant is significantly darker then it was after first getting the car back.. didn’t appear to have oil in it.. but it was dark and dirty as hell.. possibly just from the initial repair??

    Crossing my fingers and hoping for the best....


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  6. #66
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    The point of holding the gas pedal all the way down, is so the computer cuts the fuel injectors off so it will crank over without the engine starting. If it wont build pressure just off the starter cranking then its not gonna do it when running either.


    This is why early on i said to pull the fuse or relay for the fuel pumps, so you can just turn the key and let it crank for a few seconds. (Also the pedal trick doesnt work in my car for what ever reason, so i just pull the pump relay)

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  7. #67
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    Enjoy oil light coming on now, please help

    Quote Originally Posted by blistering View Post
    The point of holding the gas pedal all the way down, is so the computer cuts the fuel injectors off so it will crank over without the engine starting. If it wont build pressure just off the starter cranking then its not gonna do it when running either.


    This is why early on i said to pull the fuse or relay for the fuel pumps, so you can just turn the key and let it crank for a few seconds. (Also the pedal trick doesnt work in my car for what ever reason, so i just pull the pump relay)

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    Gotcha. Yeah unfortunately I didn’t see it until now. And I drop the car off last evening. But it’s definitely I think fair to say at this point that it is not getting oil flow so it definitely does not have pressure and I didn’t really want to keep screwing around with it until I got it to him. Didn’t want to make it any worse than it already was.

    But, I did disconnect the fuel pump before the car left. When I’m trying to crank it, for instance when I was diagnosing the bad lifter and took the valve cover off, I would usually let it crank in this condition. I’m not sure if it’s the same in everyone’s cars but I wasn’t 100% sure which fuse or relay it was. And it’s extremely easy for me to just lift up the backseat and physically unplug the pump. I have noticed it will try to start once and then die out a few times and then it’ll pretty much just crank and my car has the tip to start so I can actually Tippit and then get out if I need to. I disconnected fuel pump to deter tow truck driver or mechanic from starting it and driving it Enjoy oil light coming on now, please help


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    Last edited by WontStopTheFUnk; 09-21-2018 at 07:52 PM.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by WontStopTheFUnk View Post
    I wish there was some sort of indication of when things are edited.. I have noticed you like to go back and critique your posts, so I always have to double and triple read lol. Thank you very much for the input, I was waiting for you to hop in earlier in the thread then totally forgot about it.

    What are the odds of debris making it into pump/pressure relieve valve assembly? We did everything I can think of to help minimize left over debris. New oil pump, new pick up tube, oil pan removed and cleaned. One thing I did notice, though, when I changed the oil at 500 miles after repair, my magnetic drain plug looked like a damn porcupine with all the metal on it. Not sure if it was new metal or old debris from previous failure. I cleaned off plug real good and did oil change. She only lasted another 1000 miles.

    When the failure occurred, I did see pressure go up to 27 psi, but that was the highest it went at all on way home. Your theory of the top end and prime bleeding down makes sense. I literally had 0 noise... until I let it sit for an hour... I was convinced it was probably bad sender... started her up to let my pops hear it and confirm engine sounds good.. she started nice and smooth and then within about 5-10 seconds BAM, She got loud as hell. It was pretty clear she wasn’t coming back in my driveway. She only ran for about 1 minute in this condition and was not driven. I’m hoping everything is safe bearing wise, if the failure is the pump.

    Pardon my ignorance... but... how in the world will holding the gas pedal to the floor and cranking it show if it’s the oil pressure relief, dry pump or bad sending unit?? And unfortunately I don’t have the ability to read my evic, I don’t have the steering wheel controls. I just so happened to be logging for Johan when the failure happened and I added the oil pressure PID to my logging, so I have it all recorded. I was using my laptop to measure and monitor oil pressure. Unfortunately with the diablo set up, I think the car has to be running before connecting. Manual gauge would be best bet, still confused on diag process for this one though?

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    I go back into many of my posts to correct spelling / grammar or add more relevant information. I'm a stickler for accuracy as well as ensuring what I post is as difficult as possible to misconstrue. Writing and getting one's point across - without reader-based ambiguity creating (questionable) openings for misinterpretation is a challenge I regularly take on. On top of this, bad grammar and / or spelling mistakes on my part that I did not find before hitting the Reply button - make me not only appear stupid but incompetent to-boot.

    The (hardened - high modulus / Rockwell) metallic debris you observed on the magnet is...well...the smok'n gun. The hope would be it is debris from the previous lifter failure. You should pull that plug and look now.

    Your first startup would have lifters that still contained oil and therefore would briefly offer some lash (the act of minimizing the clearances between camshaft lobe all the way to the valve stem face).

    During the act of lifter / camshaft failure, that debris drops (or is carried with sluffed oil) down into the pan. From there it makes its way to the pickup tube. Note: there was no valid reason to replace the pickup tube btw - any good / honest mechanic would know this and simply clean it. The pickup tube then pulls the metal-laced oil directly into the oil pump. The metallic particulate then dents, scrapes the gerotor assembly and may shear into smaller particulate. Given the (spring loaded) precision relief valve (valve sliding in cylinder against spring pressure which dictates maximum operating pressure) is in-line with the pump assembly flow-wise, it doesn't take much imagination to visualize a chunk of cam or lifter holding that relief valve open...

    Once the pressurized oil leaves the oil pump, it enters the oil filter. The filter removes most of the metallic debris - as long as the oil filter's relief / bypass valve is actually closed (yes oil filters have spring-loaded or pressed metal relief valves). If the bypass valve is breached by an oil filter element that is creating enough resistance (due to particulate)...then metallic particulate is carried throughout the oil galleys that lubricate the entire engine.

    So as a result, other things to consider are the rest of the bearing interfaces across the entire engine. This means the mains, big ends and camshaft bearings are likely to have metallic debris embedded into their relatively soft faces. Then there's the lifter internals / external interfaces, camshaft / rollers, pushrods, rockers , rocker / valve stem interfaces...etcetera.

    By holding the gas pedal to the floor while cranking the engine, it effectively prevents the fuel / ignition systems from activating (no fuel pressure / spark). On a sound engine, a couple of seconds of cranking will result in oil pressure being immediately observed on the EVIC. Zero oil pressure means oil pump is dry - or sending unit has failed (and they don't normally fail to a zero reading).

    Without EVIC, you can observe oil pressure real-time on your laptop though the datalog display. In other words, datalogging commences when the key is cycled to the RUN position. Remove all but the oil pressure PID and observe it while simultaneously depressing the accelerator to the floor - then cranking for say no more than ten seconds.


    If there is no pressure observed...do not start the vehicle until root cause has been determined and repaired. Otherwise you are (further) destroying the engine...
    Last edited by Hemissary; 09-23-2018 at 06:45 PM.

  9. #69
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    My bet is a stuck relief valve in the oil pump. Read Blistering’s posts and the full description from Hemissary on debris in the engine. You should ask your mechanic if he GUN Brushed the engine. Just put it to him like that. Watch the expression on his face to tell you if he’s lying or don’t even know what you’re talking about. Looking at the photos of your cam failure means you had a ton of metal in the engine. That means a major clean out of all oil passages. End plugs removed and a gun brush worked through every oil passage in the bare block and all parts, and then flushed out with high pressure water, plus inside of the block and all parts thoroughly clean, all before hot tanking. Then repeat after hot tank again. People just don’t understand the importance of clean parts and a clean room! Sounds to me like that was not done from what you said – see quote.” One thing I did notice, though, when I changed the oil at 500 miles after repair, my magnetic drain plug looked like a damn porcupine with all the metal on it.” At that point you should have been knocking on your mechanics door! I’m thinking that left over metal has wedged in the relief valve. A bad oil pressure sensor does not make noise! One other remote possibility is that a bolt was not torqued properly on the rocker shaft, or the shaft not seat in the head right. You said the noise was more on one side. A loose bolt in the rocker shaft would release oil causing a drop in pressure. Also an end plug in an oil galley may have come out. You changed the filter and no improvement, so that rules out a bad filter valve. Good luck – you got a mess on your hands. - Now back to my mysterious 3401 code on my 07.
    Thanks WontStopTheFUnk thanked for this post
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  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hemissary View Post
    I go back into many of my posts to correct spelling / grammar or add more relevant information. I'm a stickler for accuracy as well as ensuring what I post is as difficult as possible to misconstrue. Writing and getting one's point across - without reader-based ambiguity creating (questionable) openings for misinterpretation is a challenge I regularly take on. On top of this, bad grammar and / or spelling mistakes on my part that I did not find before hitting the Reply button - make me not only appear stupid but incompetent to-boot.

    The (hardened - high modulus / Rockwell) metallic debris you observed on the magnet is...well...the smok'n gun. The hope would be it is debris from the previous lifter failure. You should pull that plug and look now.

    Your first startup would have lifters that still contained oil and therefore would briefly offer some lash (the act of minimizing the clearances between camshaft lobe all the way to the valve stem face).

    During the act of lifter / camshaft failure, that debris drops (or is carried with sluffed oil) down into the pan. From there it makes its way to the pickup tube. Note: there was no valid reason to replace the pickup tube btw - any good / honest mechanic would know this and simply clean it. The pickup tube then pulls the metal-laced oil directly into the oil pump. The metallic particulate then dents, scrapes the gerotor assembly and may shear into smaller particulate. Given the (spring loaded) precision relief valve (valve sliding in cylinder against spring pressure which dictates maximum operating pressure) is in-line with the pump assembly flow-wise, it doesn't take much imagination to visualize a chunk of cam or lifter holding that relief valve open...

    Once the pressurized oil leaves the oil pump, it enters the oil filter. The filter removes most of the metallic debris - as long as the oil filter's relief / bypass valve is actually closed (yes oil filters have spring-loaded or pressed metal relief valves). If the bypass valve is breached by an oil filter element that is creating enough resistance (due to particulate)...then metallic particulate is carried throughout the oil galleys that lubricate the entire engine.

    So as a result, other things to consider are the rest of the bearing interfaces across the entire engine. This means the mains, big ends and camshaft bearings are likely to have metallic debris embedded into their relatively soft faces. Then there's the lifter internals / external interfaces, camshaft / rollers, pushrods, rockers , rocker / valve stem interfaces...etcetera.

    By holding the gas pedal to the floor while cranking the engine, it effectively prevents the fuel / ignition systems from activating (no fuel pressure / spark). On a sound engine, a couple of seconds of cranking will result in oil pressure being immediately observed on the EVIC. Zero oil pressure means oil pump is dry - or sending unit has failed (and they don't normally fail to a zero reading).

    Without EVIC, you can observe oil pressure real-time on your laptop though the datalog display. In other words, datalogging commences when the key is cycled to the RUN position. Remove all but the oil pressure PID and observe it while simultaneously depressing the accelerator to the floor - then cranking for say no more than ten seconds.


    If there is no pressure observed...do not start the vehicle until root cause has been determined and repaired. Otherwise you are (further) destroying the engine...
    Quote Originally Posted by FlaCharger View Post
    My bet is a stuck relief valve in the oil pump. Read Blistering’s posts and the full description from Hemissary on debris in the engine. You should ask your mechanic if he GUN Brushed the engine. Just put it to him like that. Watch the expression on his face to tell you if he’s lying or don’t even know what you’re talking about. Looking at the photos of your cam failure means you had a ton of metal in the engine. That means a major clean out of all oil passages. End plugs removed and a gun brush worked through every oil passage in the bare block and all parts, and then flushed out with high pressure water, plus inside of the block and all parts thoroughly clean, all before hot tanking. Then repeat after hot tank again. People just don’t understand the importance of clean parts and a clean room! Sounds to me like that was not done from what you said – see quote.” One thing I did notice, though, when I changed the oil at 500 miles after repair, my magnetic drain plug looked like a damn porcupine with all the metal on it.” At that point you should have been knocking on your mechanics door! I’m thinking that left over metal has wedged in the relief valve. A bad oil pressure sensor does not make noise! One other remote possibility is that a bolt was not torqued properly on the rocker shaft, or the shaft not seat in the head right. You said the noise was more on one side. A loose bolt in the rocker shaft would release oil causing a drop in pressure. Also an end plug in an oil galley may have come out. You changed the filter and no improvement, so that rules out a bad filter valve. Good luck – you got a mess on your hands. - Now back to my mysterious 3401 code on my 07.
    Hey guys, thanks for the info. Consider my my mind blown so much I couldn’t even respond lol.

    I can almost guarantee he didn’t any of that. I even bought a engine flush that he didn’t want to use.

    Update: car has been sitting there since I last told you all I dropped it off... 3 weeks today... and from what I can tell it still has not been touched or worked on AT ALL and I have heard NOTHING from the guy... not sure what to do at this point


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  11. #71
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    Jul 2018
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    Williston Fla
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    The mechanics view. I did what you wanted done, any problems are not my fault. It sets until you give instructions.
    My view. The mechanic should have given an est. to repair doing it the right way, which would have been remove engine clean and check all as stated above. A half-as mechanic gives a cheap est. to get the job and get rid of you and hopes you get past a short warranty, or, he is a lousy mechanic to start with ie a parts changer. Mechanics come in many levels of knowledge and perfection.
    I would have a long talk with the mechanic, and then come to an agreement on labor and parts to repair it right. Otherwise bring it home and restart repair with a different mechanic – one with a good reputation and a full disclosure of what will be done and price. Pick his brain for knowledge and answers. Check in often to see what he is doing, and state that before letting him do the work. Good luck!

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