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View Full Version : Frankentake III: Easy Do-it-Yourself CAI is Here



MattRobertson
08-04-2006, 09:40 PM
Its here!

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankentake/frankentake_banner.gif

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankentake/frankentake.jpg

http://foohbar.com/magnum/f3mk2_narrow.jpg






Build your own complete, kickass intake for $103.38


The Frankentake Project started out simple: Stick a big 9" long S&B filter on my K&N Typhoon like Meister did to his, when he showed everybody it kicked ass at GIFO's 3 and 4.


Frankentake I (http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=33784&highlight=frankentake) was my own version of his intake, with the heat shield removed after extensive intake air temp tests (round 1 (http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=33886), rounds 2-5 (http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=33928), round 6 (http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=34381)) showed no heat shield was necessary and ambient air was plentiful in the engine cavity with a couple of minor modifications.


Frankentake II was an attempt to utilize the unique properties of Weapon-R's tube-in-a-tube design. Having participated in their 5.7 prototype program I had a couple of them sitting around, so I cut one off a bit and stuffed it under the hood with the S&B filter. The dyno runs at Modifications Face-Off 4.1 were inconclusive but even before this event I had decided to take a different turn with the project...


Frankentake III is a fully home-brewed intake solution. Its design mandate is to be made up of readily available parts that anyone can get hold of. These parts should be cheap, but also cheap-smart. We want to build a good kit and not a piece of crap. And it should be easily assembled using tools you already have in your garage, or won't mind buying.


But when it comes to the all-important filter, spare no expense. F-III's Frankenfilter has a 4" inlet, with a 10" or 12" media length, 6.5" diameter at the base, 5.25" diameter at the top. where a chromed end cap holds more filtration material for max inflow... like we need more with a filter thats a foot long. Originally S&B had agreed to make a custom filter just for this project. That was a 10" long filter with an enlarged diameter power stack on top. However that hasn't materialized so far and this filter is off-the-rack.


The filter inlet and tube is oversized at 4" in diameter. The tube is made of very thin but strong alloy. It will shuck heat faster than the thicker alloy tubes found in the K&N Typhoon or the Weapon-R, and its still very strong (refer to the temperature tests to learn why you should not worry about heat soak inside the tube). However if you want a thicker tube I have a source for that as well as will be described further on.


Is F-III the end of development of this concept? I seriously doubt it. For starters you will have the option of custom-spec'ing your own filter, and in fact there are some very smart people on this forum doing exactly that right now. Further, after assembly of the first unit tonight I can see a couple of things I could have done differently, and some things I might change. I'll cover that in the assembly post.


Finally, F-III wasn't just my project. It was a community effort and I hope it will grow from wider exposure now that its 'gone live'. I would like to sincerely thank Meister, Rev. Hammer, CoolVanilla and Cam for their invaluable assistance in helping me scrounge parts and figure this thing out.


So here we go. First I will describe the parts, the tools needed for assembly, the assembly itself and driving impressions.

MattRobertson
08-04-2006, 09:41 PM
Rubber elbow: 3.5" to 4"
Cost: $18.46 (Reducing Intake Elbow 90 Degree 4" to 3.5" (http://store.airflo.com/90hl40r35.html))

One of the things I wanted to do early on was use 4" tubing which necks down at the last moment to 3.5"; giving a potential for max flow down the oversized 4" tube and a velocity increase at the point of the neck-down, where that velocity increase should also provide a temperature reduction to the incoming air. Double Party Bonus if the theory holds up. We'll have to see if the increase in volume thanks to the oversized tubing, backed up by the oversized filter, is the good thing its hoped to be.

I would have preferred to use silicone over rubber. However the silicone reducing elbows available on the market have hard 90-degree bends in them rather than the smooth transition of this unit. Well-shaped silicone elbows are available in 3.5", but a 4" tube was a firm requirement. Rubber versus silicone is not the end of the world. Its what the stock intake uses. This piece is made very well of heavy rubber. Absolutely smooth inside. Very well-formed.

Alloy tube: 4" x 1'
Cost: $7.40 (Aluminum Intake Tubing 4" OD (http://store.airflo.com/al4.html))

A straightforward one-foot-long tube of strong, thin alloy. For mine, I sanded it down with my Porter Cable polisher (oh yeah... it was designed as a sander first and a car polisher second) using 220 grit to give it a poor-man's satin finish. Then I spray-painted it flat black. I am sure most people can do better than that. To fit the air filter on the tube -- which is sold in minimum lengths of 1-foot -- had to be cut down. More on that in the Assembly section (NOTE: This vendor cut tubes down to the exact size I wanted for $2 extra).



NOTE: The above two items can be purchased together. Combined cost is $33.89 if shipped by Ground.

Alternate Source:
Cost $12.18 + shipping This item is no longer available. (http://www.verociousmotorsports.com/Shop-by-Size/4-000-4-Tubing/4-6063-Aluminum-Tube-1-Length)
After most parts were already purchased I began talking with Verocious Motorsports (http://verociousmotorsports.com (http://verociousmotorsports.com/)) and found that they had everything but the elbow above in their store. including a more expensive but thicker alloy tube. This alloy tube is thicker (0.065 / inch vs. about 0.050) and is closer to what you find on the K&N Typhoon tubing. The thicker tube is harder to cut through and heavier, and it remains to be seen if it is better or worse to have thicker tubing. If you buy all of your parts from Verocious you will spend more on the parts but you will make it up in combined shipping and have an easier buying experience.
T-bolt clamps (two 4" and one 3.5")
Cost: $7.80 shipped (http://siliconeintakes.com (http://siliconeintakes.com/))


Put simply, T-bolts are better than hose clamps. This web site had them the cheapest and the vendor behaved like a stand-up guy during an EBay transaction I did with him. Now that the clamps have arrived they appear to be of fine quality and, at present, are the cheapest to be found on the Web.

Alternate Source:
Verocious Motorsports. two 4.38" and one 3.88" clamp. $10.50 + shipping
T-Bolt Clamp - Flat Band T-Bolt Clamp Leak proof connection (http://www.verociousmotorsports.com/Shop-by-Category/Hose-Clamps/Stainless-Steel-Flat-Band-T-Bolt-Clamp)
(http://stores.channeladvisor.com/verociousmotorsports/Clamps/T-Bolt%20Hose%20Clamps/)
Air Filter
S&B Model R1182 (blue)
S&B Model R0866 (red)
(10" filter) about $42
(http://verociousmotorsports.com) (http://verociousmotorsports.com/). Part description is found at http://sbfilters.com/product_display.php?id=2594.


Temp tests have shown the 12" filter below is prone to ingesting warm air around its base (about a 12-14-degree differential) UNLESS you use a longer tube and relocate the power steering reservoir. A 10" filter is more in keeping with the original Frankentake I, which is known to pull only cool air.

Alternate Source: S&B model R1187 (blue)
S&B Model R0872 (red)
(12" filter) about $45.00 (http://verociousmotorsports.com (http://verociousmotorsports.com/)). Part description is found at http://sbfilters.com/product_display.php?id=2604
This part is not on the Verocious web site. You'll have to call it in with your order at the present time. Sorry my packing list didn't have itemized pricing on it and I forget *exactly* what I paid for it. This filter is actually drop-shipped from S&B directly and, while the parts description clearly says "blue" you can see its red in the photo below. Make sure Verocious knows to rag on S&B to get it right in advance.
NOTE: The 12" filter was the originally published F-III filter, but F-III was not designed to use it. Circumstances conspired to make the 12" filter the rollout unit and subsequent testing showed it to bag some warm air at its closest point to the engine. If you think the 12" filter is bitchen, go for it. Otherwise wait until Mods Face-Off #5 when we dyno the thing to see whether its flow characteristics outweight the heat drawback.
ANOTHER NOTE: Some time after this article was published Rev. Hammer told us about his power steering reservoir relocation mod, which allows 3-4 more inches of extension for an air filter and tube. Use it and you can move your 12" filter entirely into the cool zone.

http://foohbar.com/magnum/filters5_640.jpg



left to right: Weapon-R open top filter, K&N Typhoon filter, S&B 9" filter, S&B 10" and 12" Frankentake filters

Crank Case vent (various)

One of the requirements of the Frankentake project is no welding. Everything should be do-able with a wrench and a drill. So we needed a bolt-on solution. This part really pissed me off, and I spent more time on it than even the filter. You can spend either a very little or a LOT. Here are the very basic parts:

HOSE BARB, (BRASS) 1/2" BARB X 3/8" MPT ($0.92)
Hose Barb, (Brass) 1/2" Barb X 3/8" MPT - PressureParts.com (http://pressureparts.com/Fittings-C-Fit-Barb-Brass-Pressure-Part-140359.aspx)

FITTING, LOCKNUT (BRASS) 3/8"NPT ($0.66)
Fitting, Locknut (Brass) 3/8"Npt - PressureParts.com (http://pressureparts.com/Pressure-Part-140065.aspx)

Cost, SHIPPED, for the above two parts is $5.53

I discovered the above via experimentation. The hose barb is the perfect fitting for the hose. However its threading is too deep to fit into the drilled 5/8" hole. About that hole: It was drilled with the needs of the K&N part in mind (see below). I found out by accident that the 5/8" hole was, with a little effort, the perfect size to jam in the hose barb and thread it in as if the hole was threaded itself -- the tube metal is thin enough at 1/16" that it works perfectly. "Jam" in is the word. You can only thread it bby hand for a 1/2 turn or so. Then I had to get out a 19mm crescent wrench to do the rest of the work and I needed the leverage that the long wrench gave me. This sucker is not coming out unless I want it to.

And speaking of which, my first time threading the barb in, I could see that the threads were too deep. I also did not like the idea of putting the nut on the inside of the tube for obvious reasons. Putting the nut on the OUTSIDE of the tube solved all problems. There is still plenty of thread to get the barb into the tube, but not so much that it intrudes into airflow. In fact, its got a lower profile than even the K&N part below. It still sticks hard into the tube, although I am sure some red Loctite is a good idea. Best of all, if Something Awful happens and it works loose nothing falls out inside the tube. Your engine stays safe. Perfect solution for less than two bucks in parts. The fitting looks a little huge on the pipe in the pics, but if you put the hose on the thing it no longer appears oversized.
http://foohbar.com/magnum/f3_barb_01.jpg

It doesn't look very sturdy, but it is in there tight.
http://foohbar.com/magnum/f3_barb_02.jpg

http://foohbar.com/magnum/f3_barb_03.jpg

The massive appearance of the thing -- made more so by the short tube -- is deceptive. Put the hose on and its nowhere near as hyooge looking
http://foohbar.com/magnum/f3_barb_04.jpg

Backing the thing out and putting it back in a couple of times did nothing to loosen the connection. Its in there *tight*.



Originally we used these parts. I would not recommend the Verocious part but the K&N part works perfectly, although it is VERY expensive for what you get:

K&N part number 85-1050
Cost: $22.35 delivered (K&N Engineering, Inc. (http://shop.knfilters.com/KNShop/Product.aspx?pid=85-1050))
It was very frustrating to blow $22 on this one stupid part. However it is ideal for the job. BUT I didn't use it. Instead I used
Verocious Motorsports 19mm Vacuum hose line fitting. $7.14+shipping.
19mm Vacuum Hose Linie Fitting w/ Rubber Grommet (http://www.verociousmotorsports.com/Shop-by-Category/Vacuum-Hose-Fittings/Vibrant-19mm-ID-Vacuum-Hose-Line-Fitting-With-Rubber-Grommet)
This part initially seemed like the perfect cheaper solution to the K&N. However as you'll see in the installation post I'm not certain that this is the best solution long-term (EDIT: Replaced it with the K&N part a few days after install).
http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankentake/gas_recircs.jpg
Crank case vent hose 1/2" ID x 2'. $4.86:
Source: Silicone Hose - 1 Ply Silicone Heater Hose (http://www.verociousmotorsports.com/Silicone-Hose-1-Ply-Sold-by-the-Foot) (blue), various local retail (red)
If all you have is a stock intake, you will need to extend your crank case vent hose or replace it with a longer one. what you need is a 1/2" ID hose. About 2 feet is plenty (you'll need to size it down a bit). Neither of the two hose types below is a *perfect* component match to use since a SMALL amount of oil will get on one side of the hose. You'll have to replace it in a few years for another two bucks. Maybe.

If you choose to buy a red filter, you can buy red heater hose at OSH for 0.99/foot, and the same hose at Home Depot for $1.03 per foot. If you choose a blue filter, Verocious has 1-ply blue silicone hose for about $2 per foot. This diameter is in stock but not on their web site so you will have to call it in.

TOTAL COST: Now, I bought stuff in batches and I don't have the shipping broken out from Verocious, but here you have a pretty good ballpark:

12" version
25.86 (tube and elbow)
07.80 (clamps)
45.00 (filter)
05.53 (vent fitting)
02.19 (rubber heater hose + tax)
20.00 (shipping estimate on all parts)
$106.38
(add about $2.00 for blue hose)


10" version
25.86 (tube and elbow)
07.80 (3 t-bolt clamps)
42.00 (filter)
05.53 (vent fitting)
02.19 (rubber heater hose + tax)
20.00 (shipping estimate)
$103.38
(add about $2.00 for blue hose)




10" version with crankcase breather filter instead of gas recirc hose (probably the smartest buy and certainly easier to build)
75.20 shipped - filter, hose clamps, clamp-on breather filter from Verocious
39.30 shipped - tube and elbow from Airflo Systems
-------
$114.50

MattRobertson
08-04-2006, 09:42 PM
TOOLS
This tools list is what I used. You may change this if you decide to build things a little differently. I do not count the tools in the cost of the intake. I mean, c'mon. They're tools. You gotta love getting more tools, so buck up and look at this as an opportunity if you are missing some of the stuff below.

You need a drill with a chuck that can handle a 1/2" shank. Both of my Makitas have this ability and hopefully that means yours does as well, cuz you'll need it.
1 5/8" drill bit. Thats just a little bigger than most home drills can handle. Lowe's sells a bit that is not necked down... you need a bigger drill than the typical schmoe has in the garage. Not happening. I went to Home Depot and they had a bit that is necked down so it will just barely fit into my drill. Done deal. This bit is used to drill the hole for the gas recirc bushing.
http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankentake/drillbit.jpg
OR...
Some people have skipped drilling the hole AND buying the fittings for the gas recirc bung. Instead they do not drill the tube and fit a breather filter onto the block in place of the hose. The cost of a breather filter vs. the fittings is about the same, or more depending on how nice of a breather filter you want to buy. However, eliminating the drilling and fitment step with a breather filter is DEFINITELY the easier way to build this thing.




1 3/4" hole saw with pilot bit. This is to drill the hole for your IAT sensor in the elbow. I got mine at Lowe's.
OR...
Use a 1/2" hole saw and stuff the IAT sensor directly into the hole, skipping both the grommet part and the chamfering described below. Since it is a rubber elbow, so long as the fitment is snug you are good with no grommet. Please note I HAVE NOT DONE THIS PERSONALLY and I am only reporting what other folks have told me who have gone this route.
OR...
Use a 3/4" hole saw and get hold of a rather special extra-large grommet from a specialty grommet seller. You can buy the perfect grommet from Westernrubber.com as part #MR2000649: also known as "#1862 GROMMET 60 DURO SBR 1/2". This grommet has the following dimensions and fits the thick elbow perfectly. It also does not need the chamfering described below. However, Western Rubber is not going to sell you just one grommet. I bought 50. You'll want to use these dimensions to hunt down an alternate source.
EDIT: As of this day (May 6 2011) Western Rubber will sell you a single grommet (http://store.westernrubber.com/mr-200-0649.html) online for $1.45 plus tax and shipping).
EDIT: Also McMaster-Carr sells these grommets now from this page (http://www.mcmaster.com/#rubber-grommets/=4hjosh).
http://www.westernrubber.com/wp-content/themes/westernrubber/images/GROMMET-IMAGE.jpg
A. Inside Diameter 1/2
B. Groove Width 3/16
C. Groove Diameter 13/16
D. Outside Diameter 1 1/16
E. Overall Thickness 7/16
https://www.westernrubber.com/images/items/MR2000469.jpghttp://foohbar.com/magnum/frankentake/holesaw.jpg
You need a 10mm box-end wrench to tighten down the t-bolt clamps.
A rotary tool with a grinding bit is extremely handy for chamfering the IAT sensor hole but if you are a masochist you could use a file. I got mine with a zillion bits and shanks at Costco for $29.99. Do yourself a big fat favor and get one of these if you don't have one already.
A hacksaw. Now, everyone has a hacksaw, right? Probably not like this one, which is extra deep. Much better than the old piece of crap hacksaw I've had for like 20 years. Treat yourself.
http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankentake/hacksaw.jpg

You need the hacksaw to cut down the 1-foot alloy tube... but if you want to use a smaller filter you might be able to skip cutting down the tube entirely. I wouldn't but its your call.
OR...
Airflo Systems - the guys who are the recommended vendor for the alloy tubing -- will cut your tubing to the exact length you desire for an extra $2, which lets you skip the most time-consuming and annoying part of this job. Its worth the two bucks.

INSTALLATION
First drill out the IAT sensor hole in the elbow. Don't worry about the rubber fragmenting. Its tough stuff. I wound up drilling at high speed and the rubber, which is pretty thick, got so hot it smoked, but thats what it took. When you're done you'll have this.
http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankentake/frankentake4.jpg

the rubber is too thick for the grommet to be able to take hold (UNLESS you use one of the optional methods described above which let you skip this step). You need to chamfer the inside and outside edges. You can either use a hand file or a rotary tool with a conical grinder bit. The latter makes the job easy. The more you gradually angle the edge the better. I probably could have done a better job and made it more gradual. But remember that the first rule of gunsmithing applies here as well: It is a hell of a lot easier to file metal off than it is putting it back on. Make sure you are chamfering the edge so it is thinner... not opening up the hole wider. When you're done you have this:
http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankentake/frankentake5.jpg

Now stuff the intake sensor and grommet into the hole. Do it with the sensor installed in the grommet already. Don't be afraid to bend the rubber elbow and really stuff that sucker in there. Make sure the flaps of the grommet are flat against the inside of the elbo all the way around. Mine is *tight* and yours should be too. When done it looks like this:

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankentake/frankentake6.jpg
http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankentake/frankentake7.jpg

With all of this drilling and filing, DO NOT forget to wipe down the interior of the elbow or all of the little shavings you just created will eventually wind up inside of your engine.

NOTE: If using the alternate 10" filter (R1182), you may opt not to cut the tube at all. Check fitment to be sure, but a 12" tube may fit by stuffing it down the rubber elbow. Make sure the end of the tube does not intrude into the bend of the elbow. If you do need to cut, you won't be cutting anywhere near as much as is being described here.
Now cut the tube down to size. The minimum size you can buy is 1-foot. You only need 8 of that. I cut to 7 and that was a bit small as I'll explain later. We cut the tube with the extra-deep hacksaw, but cutting the pipe straight can be a bit of a pain. You can use masking tape to use as a guide... assuming of course you put on the tape straight. However at OSH, while getting the hacksaw I found this simple plastic mitre box for $7.99:

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankentake/mitrebox.jpg

guess what? That channel in the middle is 4" wide. See the plan now? Stick the tube in the channel and use the center slot as a guide to do your cutting. You can't fit it across and have to cut at a high angle for awhile, keeping the blade in only one slot, but it makes the job quick and easy. Well worth the 8 bucks. when you're done, here's what you have:

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankentake/cut_tube.jpg

Which reminds me, don't paint this thing until you get everything all done. Otherwise you get to sand it all down and paint it over. Also save the extra tube length! I've got plans for mine that involve a 22-degree elbow. But don't tell anyone. Its a secret.

Next its time to drill the hole for the gas recirc fitting. If you have a vise use it. I jammed the tube between my workbench and a floor jack and that worked just fine. However my lawyer tells me that I must strongly recommend that nobody try that! Anyway once the hole is cut its time to fit the gas recirc piece. Which one to use? I liked the design of the Verocious part, where its basically impossible for anything to fall into the tube no matter what. However it is a little smaller in terms of ID. No idea if that matters, but anyway the grommet and alloy piece will fit in easily.

uh oh. Before we start we'd bettter figure out the exact spot to drill, right? We're now far enough along to fit the parts together and see how they fit in the car. Do it. No need to mess with the t-bolt clamps. Just stuff the tube into the elbow and the filter onto the tube. Space it out right and make a little mark on the tube. I use the pilot bit of the hole saw and tapped the tube. THIS is the moment where I realized for sure I should have gone for an 8-inch tube. Sure, 7 inches is plenty, and I have extra space left over... BUT I don't use my engine cover as it traps heat. I'll bet you use yours, right? I thought so, so I dusted mine off and put it on. The tube is now so short the gas recirc tube kind of looks yucky pulled over in front of the cover. I don't care but you will. It works but an extra inch would help.

NOTE: If you opt to use the K&N gas recirc part, pick up a couple of 0.5" ID o-rings at your local hardware store. On the outside of the tube, fit one o-ring in front of the washer, and one behind it and then screw the nut on. This will isolate the piece somewhat from vibration and help it keep its tension without resorting to solutions like Loctite.

Done.

THAT IS IT in terms of fabrication. The rest is just fitting the parts together. So do it. Now is a good time to point out that T-bolt clamps are REALLY strong compared to hose clamps. I never noticed any difficulty tightening them right on down, and I bet I could have crushed that alloy tube if I wasn't paying attention and stopped when it was way tight.

Here's what you wind up with:


http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankentake/finished_1.jpg



http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankentake/finished_2.jpg




http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankentake/finished_3.jpg

MattRobertson
08-04-2006, 09:43 PM
IMPROVEMENTS AND DRIVABILITY

Seems to me that the gas recirc unit I got from Verocious, while of very good quality, is not as sturdy as I would like it to be. Its in tightly enough but I'd like to see it tighter. The K&N part, while obscenely expensive, is a better design since its a bolt-in. It also uses a 5/8" pilot hole so switching it in will be easy, since I already have the part on hand.

What we really need is a larger pipe bushing to be found. This should be a $2 part, not $22. I plan on buying the shortie at pressureparts.com to see what it winds up working out like.


Tube Prop:
If you read some of the Frankentake development threads you'll see I discovered that you need to give the tube a bit of a prop up, and placing a hose clamp over the existing power steering fluid tube makes for a perfect support (this tube is a solid mount directly under where the F-III tube will be located when you install it). Add a little sticks-forever 3M body tape and you have a padded, no-rattle support. A picture of what the end esult looks like explains what to do better than anything. EXCEPT it doesn't tell you to put the clamp on snugly enough so it will stay forever but NOT so much so that it deforms the underlying clamp. Don't go crazy with the torque.

Here are a couple of shots of this clamp installed.

http://foohbar.com/magnum/f3_mount_1.jpg
http://foohbar.com/magnum/f3_mount_2.jpg

And here's a picure of a older one (note I took off the red covering... no reason for you to do that) showing how the filter end sits on it for a 12" filter Mk.2. The 10" Mk.1 sits a little differently but the principle is the same. The 3M tape keeps metal from touching metal and rattling.

http://foohbar.com/magnum/f3_mount_3.jpg



AND NOW THE MOST IMPORTANT PART: SOTP

It feels fine. Am I getting any more benefit than my Meister-inspired Frankentake-I? I have no freaking idea, but in a quick 20-mile jaunt with lots of chirping tires the car certainly felt like it was pulling great. Well OK I'll admit it did seem a little stonger. But God knows with all of the GIFO work I have seen and done myself I know that SOTP is crap. Frankentake III will be tested rigorously at Mods Face-Off #5 (http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=37056) in October, and you are welcome to join us and watch it scream in fury ... or whine in supplication. Do it live or via webcam but do it :-)

Based on what I have seen and done in the past, what do I think it will do? Well, first of all it sure isn't likely to get beat by a $250+ intake you buy in one piece at your local internet speed shop. We all know that intakes in general don't yield much in performance on these cars without programming modifications. And while it may equal their performance, it sure as hell isn't going to cost anywhere near as much as a store-bought kit.

And if I get my wish, if I built this thing right, it will do a little better than average :D

And is this the only configuration? Nooo. Now that you've seen what I have done, and where I went to do it, you can either accept this idea as the best or strike out on your own. You say you don't want a 4" tube? Fine. Buy 3.5 and use a silicone 3.5" elbow. Think the filter is too big? Get a smaller one. http://sbfilters.com has a zillion filters and a configurator to let you pick what you want. Then go to Verocious and have them ship it to you. Don't like S&B filters? Go buy some other one. Got a 6.1? A 3.5? Now you know where to get the tubes, clamps, bends and filters to build your own intake for peanuts.

Its your turn now. I've got a few things I still want to play with (that dam filter was supposed to be BLUE!) but you guys are on deck for the next round of improvements. Can't waiit to get this sucker on the dyno in October!

pigpen
08-04-2006, 10:10 PM
Pretty neat man!!

JESUSFREAK
08-04-2006, 10:21 PM
Hurry up and finish!!!!!!!!!! :)

Jaak
08-04-2006, 10:25 PM
Cool stuff! If you think it matters, the service manual tells you how to orient the intake air temp sensor. Basically put the red plastic part towards the throttle body and it exposes the largest cross section of the sensor so it can respond the quickest.

Made any measurements on it yet?

Fireman512
08-04-2006, 11:46 PM
Cool stuff! If you think it matters, the service manual tells you how to orient the intake air temp sensor. Basically put the red plastic part towards the throttle body and it exposes the largest cross section of the sensor so it can respond the quickest.

Made any measurements on it yet?

Could something a simple as the orientation of the IAT cause the car to respond a bit sluggishly from a stoplight?

GoofyTimL
08-05-2006, 12:01 AM
Cool stuff! If you think it matters, the service manual tells you how to orient the intake air temp sensor. Basically put the red plastic part towards the throttle body and it exposes the largest cross section of the sensor so it can respond the quickest.

Made any measurements on it yet?Then how come both my "as received" stock connectors have the red locking tap on the IAT sensor positioned on the forward (radiator) side vs. the throttlebody side. Should be the same cross section either way, shouldn't it?

BobCav
08-05-2006, 12:13 AM
Now that's an AWESOME intake......just 1 week after I bought in installed my ARIAID....LOL

wbornio
08-05-2006, 12:33 AM
WOO HOOO!

I reserve this spot for the finished photo of MY INSTALATION OF THIS BEAST!

Waiting for receipie list and vendor list for parts...

Thanks Master Matt! :not_worth

Ozzie
08-05-2006, 12:42 AM
Great job, Matt. That thing looks awesome!

MattRobertson
08-05-2006, 04:10 AM
Damn its after 1am and I finally finished writing up all that crap. I thought I had it all written up but I've changed so much ... had a lot of work left to do.

The car drove great with it in!

Becker
08-05-2006, 06:11 AM
Thanks Matt and Matt's Posse.

That was a wonderful write-up. I love to save money and also say I made it myself. As you stated it's a great starting point and we are free to tweak the design as needed for our tastes and budget.

Mosie
08-05-2006, 06:34 AM
Great write up Matt! :not_worth Even better end result!!

I really like the clamp-on Crankcase Breather Vent idea too.
http://images.channeladvisor.com/Sell/SSProfiles/22001003/thumbs/1/tn4_1276286.jpg

Jaak
08-05-2006, 09:35 AM
Then how come both my "as received" stock connectors have the red locking tap on the IAT sensor positioned on the forward (radiator) side vs. the throttlebody side. Should be the same cross section either way, shouldn't it?

Yup, that'll work too...

If you position it up or down, then you've minimised the cross section to the intake air and it will not sense as quickly.

Will it slow response? I'd want to measure it to see how much, but yes, I would expect it would. How much you'd feel it, depends on a number of environment factors.

SDMagnumRT
08-05-2006, 12:32 PM
Too bad I wasted my money on a K&N intake a long time ago otherwise I would jump out and do this.

Matt, you mentioned that there is plenty of ambient temp air floating around with a few minor mods...any links to threads with a description on these...I did read the air temp trials you did and don't remember if I hung around to the end and that may be where they were. Great write up though...should have DMAG post it in the Knowledge Base

xcelr8r
08-05-2006, 12:39 PM
Gr8 job Matt........can't wait to dyno. Whaddaya think Cam.......is this what I need to catch up? I'll bet the sound alone and the hood getting suckdimpled is worth a $100!

ZMagnum
08-05-2006, 12:55 PM
Great job Matt. I will have to add this to my list of future projects. I'm limited on filter size right now due to the Airaid setup I have.

BTW, I had mentioned using a breather filter instead of connecting that hose back into the intake and everyone said not to do it.
http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=31244

Becker
08-05-2006, 02:34 PM
I would hope this thread is headed straight to the "Knowledge Base".

MattRobertson
08-05-2006, 03:10 PM
BTW, I had mentioned using a breather filter instead of connecting that hose back into the intake and everyone said not to do it.
http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=31244

Good info. I'll amend my post to get rid of mention of the breather. I plan to mod the instructions as you guys come up with ideas or shoot holes in things.

I have a 160-mile trip to take and before I go I will swap in the K&N part, PLUS a rubber O-ring in front of the outside washer and behind and in front of the nut to isolate it and maybe provide a hair more vibration resistance.

I still can't stand the idea of a $22 part on this intake unless its a filter. The pipe bushing at pressurecouplings.com -- a little longer -- with a hose clamp on the end would be positively ideal.


... you mentioned that there is plenty of ambient temp air floating around with a few minor mods...any links to threads with a description on these...The links were in one of the test threads I'm pretty sure. ZMagnum, you made the best post and included pics... got a direct link? If so I'll link it in my first post. I need to find Meister's post on removing the whole schmeer too. He's camping right now, the lucky dog, so that one will have to wait.

Becker
08-05-2006, 04:32 PM
I still can't stand the idea of a $22 part on this intake unless its a filter.

Matt, would this work?
http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?Ntt=rus-663020&searchinresults=false&Ntk=KeywordSearch&DDS=1&N=700+0&x=34&y=8

MattRobertson
08-05-2006, 05:02 PM
Matt, would this work?
http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?Ntt=rus-663020&searchinresults=false&Ntk=KeywordSearch&DDS=1&N=700+0&x=34&y=8
Nope. I looked at about a zillion hose barbs. the problem with them is their threaded side intrudes too far into the intake tube. Major airflow disturbance. PLUS... what happens if the nut and washer inside the tube comes loose. Where does it go?

:shock:

'Course you could loctite it. Thought of that, but its just way too scary of a thought and, coupled to the sheer size of the thing, a dead duck. The K&N, Verocious and pressureparts items all are held by bolts from the outside, plus a hose clamp from the tube.

Now, if you have a grinder you could address the issue of intrusion into the tube, but F-III's mandate is no machining wherever possible so I discarded that idea.

Becker
08-05-2006, 05:13 PM
Nope. I looked at about a zillion hose barbs. the problem with them is their threaded side intrudes too far into the intake tube. Major airflow disturbance. PLUS... what happens if the nut and washer inside the tube comes loose. Where does it go?

:shock:

'Course you could loctite it. Thought of that, but its just way too scary of a thought and, coupled to the sheer size of the thing, a dead duck. The K&N, Verocious and pressureparts items all are held by bolts from the outside, plus a hose clamp from the tube.

Now, if you have a grinder you could address the issue of intrusion into the tube, but F-III's mandate is no machining wherever possible so I discarded that idea.

It looks like you've done all the homework on this project. I'll just get the parts and install. I do like the polished aluminum tube for a little flash. One tube, two intakes.

MAGFX
08-05-2006, 05:18 PM
Matt! Not only are you mechanically competent, but also talented with the quill. Great project and write-up! It never ceases to amaze me how the folks on this forum ROCK.:rock:

MattRobertson
08-05-2006, 07:16 PM
OK I put in the K&N gas recirc fitting in place of the Verocious part. Works perfectly. I still think we need a $2 part but I'll let you guys find it, or try the cheapie pressureparts fitting :-). Wound up with this:

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankentake/knpart.jpg

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankentake/knpart2.jpg


I added in a couple of 1/2" ID O-rings before and after the washer on the outside to promote a seal and isolate from vibration. Then for good measure I tossed a 36-cent 7/8" hose clamp around the tube. It probably doesn't need the clamp. Fitting was smooth but not as tight as the Typhoon was. I think it looks nicer with the clamp anyway.

I know what you'll think when I say this... but I think the car is pulling harder. In driving around town for the first time today I was having trouble with the car lurching forward as if the throttle was more sensitive. Just like the Superchips 1.00 tune. I'm probably imagining it.

I got the O-rings at OSH. They also have 1/2" ID tubing for 0.99/ft, which offsets the cost of the o-rings :-)

BobCav
08-05-2006, 07:48 PM
Gr8 job Matt........can't wait to dyno. Whaddaya think Cam.......is this what I need to catch up? I'll bet the sound alone and the hood getting suckdimpled is worth a $100!

LMFAO!!! You said SUCKDIMPLED!! My cheeks got that way once, but that's for another thread.....

Matt, this is frigging AWESOME. Great project, awesome write up and a most excellent service to your LX bretheren (and sisteren)!

ZMagnum
08-05-2006, 08:44 PM
Very good point.


Nope. I looked at about a zillion hose barbs. the problem with them is their threaded side intrudes too far into the intake tube. Major airflow disturbance. PLUS... what happens if the nut and washer inside the tube comes loose. Where does it go?

:shock:

'Course you could loctite it. Thought of that, but its just way too scary of a thought and, coupled to the sheer size of the thing, a dead duck. The K&N, Verocious and pressureparts items all are held by bolts from the outside, plus a hose clamp from the tube.

Now, if you have a grinder you could address the issue of intrusion into the tube, but F-III's mandate is no machining wherever possible so I discarded that idea.

ZMagnum
08-05-2006, 08:48 PM
ZMagnum, you made the best post and included pics... got a direct link? If so I'll link it in my first post. I need to find Meister's post on removing the whole schmeer too. He's camping right now, the lucky dog, so that one will have to wait.

I think this is what you are talking about. Removing the airsilencer:
http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=31360

SoCalRT
08-05-2006, 09:10 PM
Very nice home-made mod and write up.
Now if I just add another elbow and stuff the pipe down the old intake hole to grab some cooler air from the bumper area, it should be good for a little extra umph...

MattRobertson
08-05-2006, 11:58 PM
Very nice home-made mod and write up.
Now if I just add another elbow and stuff the pipe down the old intake hole to grab some cooler air from the bumper area, it should be good for a little extra umph...I'm not sure there's much to gain by doing that given the temp tests. But there was a bit of a temp bump at the top rear of the old big filter I had, which was higher up than his one. I need to run more surface tests to see whats up with this one. This filter has a smaller diameter and that may be enough to move it away from the hot upper area.

I think you would gain more by just pulling the plastic baffles next to the radiator. The upper and the lower. I just pulled the lower and the interior temp is almost ambient. Take out the upper too and its gotta be freakin chilly in there.

BUT I'm thinking of angling the tube up to about horizontal and seeing if I can run a 22-degree elbow so the filter is angled down more sharply. But first I need to re-run the surface temp tests. I have to buy another thermometer cuz I left the old one in the car and cooked it. Actually I want to dyno this first and then try the angle bit.

BobCav
08-06-2006, 12:31 AM
Matt, can you get access to a Thermometer Gun? They range from as cheap as $40 (http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=ST650&cat=388) to hundreds of dollars.

MattRobertson
08-06-2006, 01:06 AM
Matt, can you get access to a Thermometer Gun? They range from as cheap as $40 (http://www.geeks.com/details.asp?invtid=ST650&cat=388) to hundreds of dollars.Cam brought one to GIFO4. Whatchoo thinking? I can't climb out and pop the hood while I'm driving :-)

BobCav
08-06-2006, 01:16 AM
Cam brought one to GIFO4. Whatchoo thinking? I can't climb out and pop the hood while I'm driving :-)

Awww come on! I saw a guy do that on a movie just tonight!

I didn't think you were taking data while runnng.

diamondrmp
08-06-2006, 01:25 AM
Matt

Would there be any benefit to routing the tube and filter DOWN where the OEM airbox snorkel found air?

quinn
08-06-2006, 01:42 AM
I believe the plus would be cooler air during idle and slow driving. The minus would be it's that much closer to water that would could do bad things to your engine, your air meter, or at least the filter itself. I think you'd have to have to be in the water to actually damage your engine, but even damaging the filter would be a big drawback for me. Opinions vary on the subject though.

MattRobertson
08-06-2006, 02:26 AM
Would there be any benefit to routing the tube and filter DOWN where the OEM airbox snorkel found air?I would answer 'No' based on the tests that have already been run. Quinn brings up some good points. But the bottom line is the temp tests showed the air is pretty good up there. I'll run another round as I want to see what its like at the top of the filter again now that its smaller in diameter and further away from the top of the hood and rear of the filter, which was about 6-8 degrees above ambient at that one point and ambiet everywhere else. I also want to make sure the longer filter, which is now closer to the block, is still getting enough ambient air at its closest point to the engine.

Mosie
08-06-2006, 02:41 AM
I'll run another round as I want to see what its like at the top of the filter again now that its smaller in diameter and further away from the top of the hood and rear of the filter, which was about 6-8 degrees above ambient at that one point and ambiet everywhere else.
I also want to make sure the longer filter, which is now closer to the block, is still getting enough ambient air at its closest point to the engine.That's some darned toot'n good ider's Mr. Matt!

Your covering all angles it seems...

ZMagnum
08-06-2006, 03:02 AM
Matt

Would there be any benefit to routing the tube and filter DOWN where the OEM airbox snorkel found air?

I've seen this done on FreeBird's 300 SRT-8 as well as on a Nissan Z. If you do this you would want to install this in the upper section.
http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/Product/tf-Browse/s-10101/Pr-p_Product.CATENTRY_ID:2005551/showCustom-0/p-2005551/N-111+10214+600010913/c-10114

diamondrmp
08-06-2006, 10:24 AM
I've seen this done on FreeBird's 300 SRT-8 as well as on a Nissan Z. If you do this you would want to install this in the upper section.
http://www.jcwhitney.com/autoparts/Product/tf-Browse/s-10101/Pr-p_Product.CATENTRY_ID:2005551/showCustom-0/p-2005551/N-111+10214+600010913/c-10114

I actually have that on the intake of my Scion xA.

Hurst Equipped
08-06-2006, 11:02 AM
it looks like you reinvented the 360 air intakez system minus the airbox. i was surprized that you guys never tested this system at the first GIFO. i thought this was the best system out there. biggest tubing and biggest filter has got to help. the kit also came with a completely closed airbox, not just a shield.

i was going to send my 360 air intakez to test at the mofo5, but it looks like you will be doing that with yours.

mopower
08-06-2006, 11:26 AM
Great work Matt!!!!, I am sooooo happy you found all these parts! As most of you know, one of the last things I still need to design for the shaker is the sealed air box system. I was sickend by the thought that I had maximized the tube size from the shaker to the airbox to 4"ID but the factory one to the motor was just 3.5". I was going to design the airbox so you would have to buy a srt8 intake hose which is over $100 just to get a larger 4" tube to the motor, or use a reducer at the box for the regular 3.5" factory hose. If I design the system to accept the Frakentake III elbow and tube instead, it will really reduce the cost of putting together a real nice system for max airflow. Also, those who have already made the Frakentake, could save some money and not chage much! Would it be cool if I did this, or would that be stepping on some toes out there?

hemiwagn
08-06-2006, 01:08 PM
Great write-up Matt! Kudo's for keeping this mod flexible for all types of engines and filter sizes. One question -- how is the filter held in place to keep from vibrating? Did you fabricate a support strut at the driver's side of the assembly?

quarky42
08-06-2006, 01:09 PM
Matt: Simply Awesome. Thanks for your hard work on this one. I look forward to doing this mod in the next paycheck or two.

MattRobertson
08-06-2006, 01:29 PM
it looks like you reinvented the 360 air intakez system minus the airbox. i was surprized that you guys never tested this system at the first GIFO. ... Meister showed me a pic of your modified intake a short time ago and I immediately recognized the elbow. I am pretty sure we just flat out could not get hold of one of those units for GIFO1. Either they had just discontinued the product or were about to. Not many were sold.


i was going to send my 360 air intakez to test at the mofo5, but it looks like you will be doing that with yours.Please do send it! I am presently working on expanded intake testing; not just the cams and heads and F-III we've been openly discussing. Presently hoping to test the AFE Stage II and S&B LX hemi intake, which the manufacturer has made some *very* intriguing comments about (no I can't discuss details yet).

If we added yours into the mix we could sort of get a reference check on the massive-volume concept, which the 360, the AFE and now F-III embrace. Plus it would be interesting to see how their unit stacks up to mine on the dyno. With the same elbow and nearly the same tube we'd be isolating the filter as the point of difference and it might tell us something useful as to whether the gigantic filter is overkill, ridiculous overkill or what. Either way it looks cool :-)

What I want to do -- and at present I don't know if the budget will stand it -- is test intakes on both a bone stock Magnum (donor vehicle TBD) and a heavily modified one -- me or CV. The idea being that these mass-mongo intakes may provide gains on vehicles that have been heavily spiffed that you will not see on a stocker -- or provide bigger gains than on a stocker. We'll see. Could guide people's buying decisions if they know Brand X intake is great but has to be replaced if they slowly morph their car into a tiger.


Would it be cool if I did this, or would that be stepping on some toes out there?Not even a little bit Mopower. I moved off of the Frankentake II idea to this one specifically to make it a community knowledge base kind of project. Sort of an open source thing like you see in software. Just as in open source software though, share what you learn. With your track record online I have no doubt you will! I have ideas for Frankentake myself.


I would still like to see the 10" blue filter S&B agreed to build up for this project. Its projected MSRP was even a few bucks cheaper than the off-the-shelf 12" filter I am using now (FYI my costom unit was not 12" cuz I wasn't sure it would fit... after waiting weeks I said to hell with it and ordered the current unit from Verocious).
Remember the 5" of leftover tubing from the install post? Well, pull the filter off the end of the 7" tube and put this on the end of it:
http://store.airflo.com/22hl4.html
Re-use at least part of the remaining alloy tube as a coupler. Only a little. Run the 10" filter down at an angle towards the hole.This would get the filter away from the hood IF (IF!) my next round of temp tests show it to be warmer up there. For the record guys, I do not believe that angling the filter down thru the silencer hole is going to provide any positive benefit. Further I believe that an enclosed airbox does more harm than good given the proven large quantity of ambient air circulating in the engine bay when the vehicle is in motion. An airbox will restrict air circulation to a single less-copious source rather than just going commando and letting air come at it from all sides as it has been shown to do. And I can enormously increase that quantity of ambient air by removing the other lower baffle, or the two upper baffles that surround the radiator, which Meister has already done successfully.

Did I go off track again? What were we talking about? :rock:

MattRobertson
08-06-2006, 01:36 PM
Great write-up Matt! Kudo's for keeping this mod flexible for all types of engines and filter sizes. One question -- how is the filter held in place to keep from vibrating? Did you fabricate a support strut at the driver's side of the assembly?

Ah... I haven't written that one up yet but I have pics. It was an accident of sizing that gave me the perfect setup. You guys are gonna $hit when you see it, too. By the time I do I will have about 1000 miles on the unit and will be able to determine if its going to be as permanent of a solution as I think it is (hint... you don't need any more parts to implement).

I will give this hint... Frankentake I's filter rested no the silencer 'shelf', padded by some ultra-dense padding. After weeks of riding like that I came to the conclusion that it was a fine solution that used gravity to keep the parts from coming apart like they did on the Weapon-R unit and had done to an extent with the K&N (they just continually loosened but never fell apart as the WR did). I had expected to do this for F-III, but it wasn't necessary. If the 22-degree-bend variant is ever built it too will rest on the shelf and the main tube will be absolutely horizontal, or perhaps a bit raised.

I may have it written up as soon as tonight.

CoolVanilla
08-06-2006, 01:44 PM
65, as Matt said, send us that intake. As always, the more stuff to test, the better.

Matt, you're the man buddy. Fabulously done.

Charger - SXT
08-07-2006, 02:15 AM
I am glad you did this intake mod, you have done a lot of work and found parts that I can use and others will use as well, now i dont have to go to Home Depot and compromise anymore.

I only have a Charger SXT with the 3.5 (no cracks please) but ever since i bought it 10 months ago i have been making my own CAI intakes as well as purchasing the WR. I even removed the inside tube on the WR and noticed the same if not a little better feel. So after this i decided to make another CAI and have kept it since. I used 4" tubing as well but it was exhaust venting for home heaters and water heaters made of metal that is sectionally joined for making varios angles. Since the 3.5 is not as clean angled as the HEMI 90 degree turn i needed less angle and at least 3 turns to get the filter where i wanted it. This allowed me to do this easily and since it was not dryer venting the interior is still smooth. The i wrapped it with several layers of aluminum tape to seal all the seems. The reducer from 4" to 3" to the throtle body is from the plumbing section but had to modify that rubber peice to make it work.

What i am getting at - it is great that you found all these great parts, there are some i am going to buy to replace others i am using now, and these new parts will work better and be cleaner. If not for your great work i would never have ran into them.

One thing i noticed from using the WR that made me go to the 4" tubing.

You may not be ablet to experiment this with the HEMI due to space restriction at the 90 degree bend but maybe you can find a way if you want.

I noticed that when the reducer from 3.5 to 3" with the WR was not exactly centered to the throtle body the intake sound would be quitier and the power would feel less. From experimenting it seems that the closer the larger tube is to the throtle body the more noise and better power feel.

If you can get the 4" elbow all the way to the throtle body instead of the taper length it is desinged with now you may have less restriction because the larger diamater is right at the opening. This is what i found by modifing my adapter and getting the 4" tube almost over the throtle body opening.

Just a thought.

Becker
08-07-2006, 01:18 PM
I would still like to see the 10" blue filter S&B agreed to build up for this project. Its projected MSRP was even a few bucks cheaper than the off-the-shelf 12" filter I am using now (FYI my costom unit was not 12" cuz I wasn't sure it would fit... after waiting weeks I said to hell with it and ordered the current unit from Verocious).

How was your custom built 10" filter different from S&B's R1182?

MattRobertson
08-07-2006, 01:56 PM
It had a 6" diameter top instead of a 5.25". Nothing else. In fact they were going to pull an r1182 off the shelf and rework it into that filter.

Kamakazie2
08-07-2006, 02:40 PM
It had a 6" diameter top instead of a 5.25". Nothing else. In fact they were going to pull an r1182 off the shelf and rework it into that filter.

Parts are on the way! Thanks for your hard work and research.. i should have them by next week!

Becker
08-07-2006, 02:42 PM
It had a 6" diameter top instead of a 5.25". Nothing else. In fact they were going to pull an r1182 off the shelf and rework it into that filter.
So, she might like 12"s better than 10" and 6"s in diameter better than 5.25".

Interesting.......

MattRobertson
08-07-2006, 02:42 PM
I have some more news and its not what I want to post, but as a friend of mine here recently said to me, this is about taking it to the next level ... not my ego.

First of all, don't panic. F-III is still a great intake. Now, bear with me while I toss in some background so you don't have to link around to other places.

Frankentake I was a copy of Meister's S&B'd Typhoon. Since I lacked the tools to fab a heat shield adjustment easily, I decided to try and do without and see what happened after testing temperatures. You know that part already. Below is a side shot of the intake that shows it angled down and resting low on the 'shelf' that is there that the stock airbox rested on.

http://foohbar.com/magnum/cai_01.jpg

later as you know I ran temp tests on the filter at its base -- the highest point -- at 12 o'clock and found that temps at that point were 6-8 degrees above ambient and never more. The filter was low enough and air circulation was sufficient to keep it fairly cool. Tests at all other points on the filter -- even directly facing the engine -- showed flat out ambient ("cold") air.

At the last minute I substituted a 12" long filter -- an idea I wanted to try -- for the planned 10" custom unit that was still not here. This filter fits, but at a small cost:

1. The rubber base of the filter rests directly on top of another rubber hose that is solidly mounted just under it. makes for a sturdy and vibration resistant base oddly enough. However this means the filter has been raised up a bit. Its reduced diameter versus the F-I unit actually puts the top of the filter at about the same spot on F-III as it did on F-I.

2. The 12" filter is longer... hence it is closer to the engine at its base (...see where this is going?). I told Mosie in an earlier post "I also want to make sure the longer filter, which is now closer to the block, is still getting enough ambient air at its closest point to the engine."

So yesterday evening I tested it on a 160-mile drive. At its closest point to the engine, the filter is -- at best -- 18 degrees above ambient. Temp reductions due to speed are nowhere near the immediate reductions of those measured further out along the filter. The dam thing is too long.

UNLESS...

You do what Meister did and remove the upper radiator baffles, which are directly in front of the base of the filter and just begging to be allowed to cool it off, which they would do magnificently.

Thats more modding than I think people should be doing to get this intake right, so lets consider what you see so far to be a Stage II version of F-III and let me get back to S&B and beat on them for the 10" blue Frankentake-spec filter design we discussed.

Another thing I noted in the temp tests: If I move the heat sensor element to roughly the 10" position on the filter, we get good temps again but not at the same high speed (although it is a hell of a lot faster, its not immediate). That tells me air circulation needs a bit of a bump... which we'll get when I clear that hose and can lower the filter down to the shelf just like the original.

Cam
08-07-2006, 03:12 PM
Dang Matt, just got done reading all this. Great job buddy!!!!!.

Becker
08-07-2006, 05:30 PM
I was just at Air Flow Systems for my parts.

They will cut that 12" piece of tubing to any size, for a small cutting charge.

MattRobertson
08-07-2006, 05:35 PM
They will cut that 12" piece of tubing to any size, for a small cutting charge.No kidding... How much so I can amend the post for those who want to do that. Nice find.

EDIT: How long to cut the filter you ask? If doing the Stage II with the 12" filter I would go 8", but you could get away with 9 easily. MAYBE even 10. I say that because I have the filter tube *barely* in past the t-bolt clamps on each side. You could stuff it down into the rubber elbow at least another inch on that side, and allow the tube to be 3/4" longer than mine is on the other side. I left at least that much open space that really doesn't need to be there. Remember I tested the temps even at the reverse cone and they were fine when almost directly against the fluid reservoir. Which means that a foot-long tube MIGHT work with a Stage I version that either uses an S&B R1182 or the custom filter if it gets made.


Dang Matt, just got done reading all this. Great job buddy!!!!!.You are just the guy whose brain I need to pick. I'm going to jack up the car and try and pull that radiator shield tonight, take pics etc. I'll try and call you in a minute.

Becker
08-07-2006, 07:03 PM
No kidding... How much so I can amend the post for those who want to do that. Nice find.

EDIT: How long to cut the filter you ask?

Like, $1.75. Actually they added a $1.75 cutting charge to my bill, which being me, I questioned and got it removed. Not knowing the correct size, I didn't get it cut at the time.

That pricing was here in Portland.

Thanks again for a great post.

MattRobertson
08-07-2006, 08:25 PM
ah so you can walk in and do it. I imagine then that they'll do it for a phone-in order. Interesting. Makes them handy for you guys who don't want to mess with a hacksaw. There will be two different tube lengths for a Stage I and a Stage II. MAYBE a Stage I will accept a 12" tube. I have one from Verocious so I'll be able to check when I get a 10" filter.

MattRobertson
08-08-2006, 02:20 AM
Well I jacked up the car and pulled the two upper radiator baffles and the passenger side lower. A pesky and dirty job but not especially difficult. You can now look thru the grille and see most of the filter directly. At a gas station today I popped the hood and put my hand on the filter. The steel cap was actually cool to the touch in the 67-degree evening.

A temp sensor at the base in the 12-o'clock position showed that temps were now down to 6-8 above ambient, which is where we were at before. Note that I haven't gotten past the 12 o'clock position and haven't tried the all-important 3 and 4 o'clock positions facing straight into the engine. Those were dead-on ambient last time but I'll bet not this time.

I should have stuck to the proven game plan, used the 10" filter and lowered the pipe down and filtter into the middle of the known cool area. Unfortunately what should have been an experiment after release became the release due to circumstances.

The 12" filter may still be great stuff. I'll run it on the dyno, but if you are considering this mod I would use the (slightly less expensive) model R1182 filter or sit and wait until I can get S&B on the stick with the custom unit. THAT is the one that will feed in ambient air. And while it will probably look small in comparison to the 12" behemoth, its still a freaking 10" long filter with an open top.

Ozzie
08-08-2006, 03:15 AM
Great job, Matt. Thanks for all the hard work!

Hemi_RT_AWD
08-08-2006, 08:21 AM
Looks like an awesome DIY project! I wish I hadn't just spent $40 for my K&N panel filter but it the stock one needed to be changed and that is all that was stocked here in town :)

Quick questions:

1. Are those air temps in the engine compartment with or without the engine cover installed? I haven't read the other versions of this DIY so forgive me if this was already covered. Seems to me the engine cover could trap some heat.

2. The baffles around the radiator and lower grille are probably there to serve a dual purpose: to force all the air through the radiator and to keep dirt out of the engine compartment (just like the lower cover). This may be splitting hairs, but have you noticed any increase in engine temp on the EVIC since removing those baffles? How about a dirty engine compartment? I love the fact that the engine in this car stays pretty darn clean without any help from me!

Meister
08-08-2006, 09:59 AM
Looks like an awesome DIY project!

...2. The baffles around the radiator and lower grille are probably there to serve a dual purpose: to force all the air through the radiator and to keep dirt out of the engine compartment (just like the lower cover). This may be splitting hairs, but have you noticed any increase in engine temp on the EVIC since removing those baffles? How about a dirty engine compartment? I love the fact that the engine in this car stays pretty darn clean without any help from me!The baffles are there either to make the intake quieter (the upper ones) or to lower the drag coefficient (the lower ones).

Removing them significantly reduces underhood temperatures.

I've had ALL baffles and shrouds removed for well over a year. A cooler, happier, engine is the result.

Note: If you do decide to remove the lower engine shroud you'll need to do my fender well liner mod. You'll find instuctions on how to that here: http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=25829

monty1269
08-08-2006, 12:24 PM
Matt-
Is the first post (listing the parts etc) all updated with the most recent 'findings' and methods of construction? Or will there be a post added to the "Knowledge Base"? Looking to order everything today! ;)

MattRobertson
08-08-2006, 01:30 PM
1. Are those air temps in the engine compartment with or without the engine cover installed?Thats a good question. I had the engine cover in place back then. Given our horrendously hot summer I removed it afterwards and am not planning on putting it back except for car shows. It is indeed an umbrella for heat.


2. The baffles around the radiator and lower grille are probably there to serve a dual purpose: to force all the air through the radiator and to keep dirt out of the engine compartment (just like the lower cover). That sounds about right, but read what Meister just said on this. I did indeed notice a SMALL increase in engine temp, but with a 180-degree Tstat in place I am still one full tickmark below full vertical on the temp gauge (before this I was a hair past one full tick mark). Interestingly, when F-III went into the car the engine's runningtemp went DOWN a bit. I have no explanation for this. Removing the baffles yesterday brought it back UP to the full tickmark (as in the needle is directly over the mark if you center your face in front of the gauge).


Matt-
Is the first post (listing the parts etc) all updated with the most recent 'findings' and methods of construction? Or will there be a post added to the "Knowledge Base"? Looking to order everything today! ;)NO it is not, and Monty1269 if you can please wait a few days. You and everybody else. I need leverage on S&B to get this custom filter made. The 12" filter should be an experiment to see if the increased size offsets the warm air it funnels in at its base. It should not be the mainstream unit as even with the radiator baffles pulled it still pulls in warm air from its base area.

This brings to mind a couple of things: Monty1269 if you or anyone else is serious about building one of these for yourselves could you please PM me? I would like to be able to tell S&B that X orders are on hold pending creation of the filter.

ALSO: CoolVanilla and I have discussed taking a day and working in his shop to assemble these for a few bucks for you guys; charging a few dollars over and above and donating the proceeds to the Mods Face-Off fund. I imagine

We were informally discussing a price of $150 *shipped*, and with that I think you would get some level of contributory participation in Mods Face-Off #5, which may include an entry in any drawings for free stuff that may be given away. CV would have to weigh in on this as I may be springing that last part on him now ... I forget if I mentioned it to him or not when we last spoke :-)

I was hoping to wait until the filter question was resolved, and we had an absolutely definitely cheap part for the gas recirc fittiing,

We are also looking at alternative materials. Optional polished aluminum, or polished stainless steel for the tubing.

If you are interested in this sort of pre-assembled "group build" please PM me.

Hemi_RT_AWD
08-08-2006, 08:45 PM
The 12" filter should be an experiment to see if the increased size offsets the warm air it funnels in at its base. It should not be the mainstream unit as even with the radiator baffles pulled it still pulls in warm air from its base area.

I've seen the "coffee can" style CAI shrouds that cover these cone filters and have a hose attachment at the end cap -- I wonder if shrouding the last few inches would keep the heat out and if the extra filter area would make much of a difference. I'd guess it wouldn't matter -- the 10" unit should have plenty of surface area compared to the 12" one.

I actually AM considering building one of these, but I'll definitely wait for the results of the custom S&B units -- no point in doing anything until those have been tested and put into production.

Kamakazie2
08-08-2006, 09:25 PM
ITs funny.. I was looking around the net looking for parts to build a CAI and i stop by here and BOOM. I am sticking with the 12 inch filter because i will be making my own tweaks as needed. Honestly i really like the huge 12 inch filter.. it just looks badass. I think this will make a great difference in power as far as intakes are concerned. I dont think 25-30hp but i think well see a significant measurable difference that will justify 100 bux.




I've seen the "coffee can" style CAI shrouds that cover these cone filters and have a hose attachment at the end cap -- I wonder if shrouding the last few inches would keep the heat out and if the extra filter area would make much of a difference. I'd guess it wouldn't matter -- the 10" unit should have plenty of surface area compared to the 12" one.

I actually AM considering building one of these, but I'll definitely wait for the results of the custom S&B units -- no point in doing anything until those have been tested and put into production.

MattRobertson
08-09-2006, 12:41 AM
I'm testing something now that should at least help. The radiator baffles did much of the job and this may be the tipping point.

Basically at the elbow and the tube, you loosen the t-bolt clamp and work the tube off-level a bit. Its surprising how far off center you can go without compromising the seal. Do the same thing with the filter side. The net effect is to angle the filter down into that big air pocket.

Tested it for fitment today. Holds fine with no alteration after about 60 really crazy miles on a backroad. Temp tests tomorrow. We'll see.

Becker
08-09-2006, 01:10 AM
I'm testing something now that should at least help. The radiator baffles did much of the job and this may be the tipping point.

Basically at the elbow and the tube, you loosen the t-bolt clamp and work the tube off-level a bit. Its surprising how far off center you can go without compromising the seal. Do the same thing with the filter side. The net effect is to angle the filter down into that big air pocket.

Tested it for fitment today. Holds fine with no alteration after about 60 really crazy miles on a backroad. Temp tests tomorrow. We'll see.
Putting the filter in the factory air silencer location looks better and better. One more 90 and I'm there.

Meister
08-09-2006, 02:37 AM
I'm testing something now that should at least help. The radiator baffles did much of the job and this may be the tipping point.

Basically at the elbow and the tube, you loosen the t-bolt clamp and work the tube off-level a bit. Its surprising how far off center you can go without compromising the seal. Do the same thing with the filter side. The net effect is to angle the filter down into that big air pocket.

Tested it for fitment today. Holds fine with no alteration after about 60 really crazy miles on a backroad. Temp tests tomorrow. We'll see.Go, Matt! :thumbs_u:

Hemi_RT_AWD
08-09-2006, 08:28 AM
I'm testing something now that should at least help. The radiator baffles did much of the job and this may be the tipping point.

I'm confused about all the shields and baffles because I don't think everyone here uses the same terminology. I thought the main ones to remove to improve the air situation for the air filter were the ones to the sides of the radiator, but now it sounds like removing the engine cover and belly pan is necessary to really make things work. Do all the shrouds need to be removed to make this CAI work without heat shields, or just the ones to the sides of the radiator?

NOC
08-09-2006, 09:23 AM
very nice work and thread..mad props

BillyDsl
08-09-2006, 08:49 PM
Another great job Matt,
I keep thinking someone will start a fund to help with the fuel cost for all those crazy test miles.. :rock:

MattRobertson
08-09-2006, 09:16 PM
Do all the shrouds need to be removed to make this CAI work without heat shields, or just the ones to the sides of the radiator? I know its hard to follow given all the posts. Let me try and condense it to what I now feel is the bottom line, in one sentence:

All you should need to do is remove the drivers side lower baffle (take out the passenger side lower baffle if you like).

Hah. Creative use of parentheses let me do two sentences in one.

These lower baffles actually attach to the upper radiator baffles. Each is removed via two pushpins. Both are quite small but the difference they make is dramatic. In my opinion the drivers side baffle should absolutely not be on any LX car no matter what intake you use.

Now, some folks have taken this further; removing the much larger upper baffles, the flat panels in front of the engine bay (the ones you always lay your tools on), and even the lower plastic shroud (whose removal affects structural integrity at high speeds so use Meister's reinforcement method). However, none of these things are requirements.

My temp tests have progressed to the point where I feel the two upper radiator baffles should be left in. I suffered an engine temp increase almost immediately on their removal (moving up a full tickmark back to center... I was lower thanks to a 180-degree tstat) and I think their stated purpose of encouraging airflow through the radiator rather than around it makes sense. Especially now.

I'm not getting calls back from S&B, so I'm going to drop the pursuit of a custom filter despite the fact that it would be a really nice product. Last I heard from S&B it was "they go out tomorrow" but that was weeks ago. Having spent an enormous amount of time sussing out parts for this thing its time to just take what is already a big filter and use it. Its not the best we could have in this space but it'll be big enough.

I figure I can buy the 10" filter from Verocious and get it fitted, with the pipe lowering as a result and all things going back to where I expected them to be. In October when the front end is pulled off to put the cam in I'll put the baffles back.

As to the 12" filter and my creative placement of the filter and the tube, it helped... but not enough. I went down to 12 degrees above ambient from 14. Screw that. We should be able to lay claim to 6 degrees of variance at 12-o'clock and zero at the remaining clock position with a smaller filter and longer tube.

Luckily I bought a tube from Verocious as a quality check, so I have a spare sitting here ready to go.

Hemi_RT_AWD
08-10-2006, 09:42 AM
What about just sliding the tube into the 12" filter another two inches or so? Waste of 2" of filter media maybe, but could be a quick workaround.

sstevens805
08-10-2006, 12:39 PM
If you start selling these, you need a LX Forums logo stamped on it or soemthing.

monty1269
08-10-2006, 02:16 PM
Red hose..cool.:cool: ..polished metal..mo' coool!:rock: Inferno Red.....:drool:

:popcorn: :friday:

MattRobertson
08-10-2006, 03:25 PM
What about just sliding the tube into the 12" filter another two inches or so? Waste of 2" of filter media maybe, but could be a quick workaround.
Talk about a looney tunes solution... I thought of that too :-)

I bounced it off Cam as we were talking about this problem. He had one word for me: turbulence.

Besides, we aren't stopping the flow of hot air. Only making it less optimal. So I tossed it. Keep thinking though :-)

I have updated the first and second posts with a few new tidbits and part numbers. Cost has gone DOWN a couple bucks. I have ordered the 10" filter (with assurances the thing really will be blue this time) and some blue silicone hose for the gas recirc. I have also provided part numbers for the red filters in case you want to go red hose and filter. I'll update the pics when the parts arrive. Finally, a supporting vendor of this forum has indicated to me an interest in carrying these parts as a kit for you guys. No details for now other than the tease :-)

CoolVanilla and I should have some sort of announcement on our own group build/fundraiser within the next few days. As soon as we are on track with the installed 10" filter.

MattRobertson
08-11-2006, 06:58 PM
So many people are approaching me on this that I am going to do a preliminary dyno it to make sure its not a turkey before people jump in with both feet in quantity. We will still do more testing on a stocker LX in October, along with the 10"-filtered F-III.Mk2.

I have some definite expectations based on my finely calibrated SOTP, but a real dyno is the lie detector. I'll be using the Mods Face-Off dyno that we've relied on for many events and know very well.

Will do a baseline group of runs, then bleed my brakes (my excuse for getting into the shop again :-) ) then dyno F-III.Mk.1 with the 12" filter. I plan on doing multiple runs on it without intervening intervals to see if its increased flow is enough to counteract the heat soak thats going to hammer it. Should be interesting. Good or bad you'll know the results here.

Dyno day is the morning of the 21st. Anyone in or near Sacramento CA is welcome to watch at SVS R&D.

Hurst Equipped
08-12-2006, 02:57 PM
you may be able to lower the cost a tad by using this rubber grommet for the breather hose. this is a 360 air intakez.

http://images.andale.com/f2/119/104/10743970/1156186383356_360_3.jpg

MattRobertson
08-12-2006, 03:31 PM
So thats how they did it. thanks for showing that. CoolVanilla has shop resources available and if we do a group build fundraiser, the folks who buy in may get a welded and smoothed fitting rather than a bolt-on. If not I would bet we go with one of the options I have updated the parts post (#2) with.

The thing that made me remove the rubber-grommeted Verocious part was it angled out. It wasn't an absolutely solid connection since the hose wanted to move outward. Plus when I pulled the hose off -- something admittedly you shouldn't do every day -- I had a pretty good chance of removing the whole fitting minus the grommet rather than taking the hose off the fitting.

I'll order up the alternatives I re-posted. Should be about $15 for all of them and I can play around and see what works, what is overboard etc. I kind of like the idea of the elbow hose barb so you can direct the hose at any angle you like. Not sure if its workable though.

monty1269
08-16-2006, 07:44 PM
:bump:
What's up doc? er Matt??

MattRobertson
08-17-2006, 01:18 PM
:bump:
What's up doc? er Matt??
It goes on the dyno Monday morning. I am patiently waiting for the 10" filter to arrive and if it gets here today I MIGHT have time to drill the tube and dyno that one too, but don't hold your breath. I also have to leave town tonight and won't be back until I am back from the shop (which is 160 miles away).

Becker
08-17-2006, 03:08 PM
It goes on the dyno Monday morning. I am patiently waiting for the 10" filter to arrive and if it gets here today I MIGHT have time to drill the tube and dyno that one too, but don't hold your breath. I also have to leave town tonight and won't be back until I am back from the shop (which is 160 miles away).
They tell me the 10" filter is a week or two out on shipping. Looking at your post, I guess that's true.

chasb
08-17-2006, 03:35 PM
will there be a blue filter and blue or silver tube?

My entire engine compartment is painted to match the MOPAR CAI I have in there now.

Chas

MattRobertson
08-17-2006, 05:43 PM
will there be a blue filter and blue or silver tube?I gave part numbers for both blue and red filters in the parts post (#2?) as well as blue silicone tubing from Verocious that is not on their web site. Wait and see if I get a blue filter this time. I ordered a blue 12" and I got red despite the part number on the box being correct. This time if it comes in red its going back.

As for the tube, I painted mine black. You can paint yours any color you please, or polish it or whatever you like for whatever look you need.

EDIT: If we do a Group Build I guess we can offer multiple colors and stock up on spray paint cans. Not sure exactly how we will handle that. The tubes may even be polished steel.

Apache
08-22-2006, 08:19 AM
Matt, what is the latest on this develpment? Well thanks for you hard work and ingenious idea. Do have 1 question, where did you get the rubber gromets and what size. They are not in your parts list. Thanks

monty1269
08-22-2006, 08:23 AM
"Dyno Day" was yesterday!! It's 8:24 a.m. and there is no update?!?! How can you be SO cruel! You sadistic ba$tard!! Oh, such a cruel cruel world!! LOL!!!

What's up doc?

MattRobertson
08-22-2006, 11:59 AM
Matt, what is the latest on this develpment? Well thanks for you hard work and ingenious idea. Do have 1 question, where did you get the rubber gromets and what size. They are not in your parts list. Thanks
I just opened up CV's analysis of the results and I am putting together a post. I'll start a new thread to keep it reasonably uncluttered.

But I am going to wait awhile to see if Monty1269 blows a gasket. Curious to see what that looks like ...

:mrgreen:

As to the grommets, my original plan was for you guys to re-use the factory stock grommet. You can do that. I had extras so it was a non-issue for me (hell, I have two IAT's and 5 intakes from all the GIFO stuff; counting my stocker and F-III... and thats not counting the MoFO5 equipment).

BUT... I found what appear to be *perfect* grommets at OSH in what can best be described as the miscellaneous widget hardware aisle. If you go down to the nuts and bolts section, move one aisle closer to the registers, you should be there. Its in the area where all of the sliding displays are holding all of the little plastic boxes filled with neat little whatsits. I found solutions to like three problems in there that day. Anyway, the stocker grommet is a little bit undersized ffor this thick rubber elbow. It works once you chamfer the opening on both sides, but I would like to see a thicker grommet and the one at OSH is either the same thickness or a bit more. If a bit more it would be a certain addition to the parts list.

I'll try and do better than that in the parts post soon :-)

wbornio
08-22-2006, 12:10 PM
I just opened up CV's analysis of the results and I am putting together a post. I'll start a new thread to keep it reasonably uncluttered.

Can you link to the new thread here? I have subscribed to this one and don't want to miss it.

Thanks - Wayne

Apache
08-22-2006, 12:24 PM
Thanks again, Matt. I will try to find a grommet at my local Home Depot or Lowes when I get a chance. How thick would you say the elbow is, just for reference in looking for a grommet? Thanks again.

DMAG
08-22-2006, 01:12 PM
Copied this to the Knowledge Base. :)

MattRobertson
08-22-2006, 01:17 PM
thickness at the point you have to drill is... 3/8"? I never thought to measure... but you can see the unchamfered hole pretty clearly in the installation post. The elbow at that point is 4" wide for reference.

WBornio, here is the link to that thread: If you have performance questions lets hash 'em out there:

F-III dyno results thread (http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=38977)

monty1269
08-22-2006, 02:44 PM
But I am going to wait awhile to see if Monty1269 blows a gasket. Curious to see what that looks like ...

:mrgreen:

Funny...VERY funny! It kinda lloks like this: :1puke:

I'm just happy that one of "us" created this intake. I'm tired of these 'corporate' types getting all our money. I like to see it go to good people! And for all the work you guys have put into this...you HAVE TO BE, 'good people'. :thumbs_u:

FYI - the rest of you can contribute to the MOFO5 at any time (where did I put that link?) CV?

quarky42
08-23-2006, 04:26 PM
Don't have an OSH here so need detailed information about the gromit.. inner diamter, outer diameter, collar width or thickness (the collar that goes into the tube forming the seal... how thick is it?)

Any word on that Group Build option? I like the idea of buying all the parts from one place and supporting the LX Forums at the same time.

Or is that 3/8" the thickness the gromit has to be able to fit?

MattRobertson
08-23-2006, 04:54 PM
CoolVanilla and I have been getting hammered on what we are doing for MoFO5. That and our day jobs (job?!?). A Group Build is definitely in the picture and we are going to try and have an announcement soon. I just need to have a sit-down with Jason either on the phone or in person (I am dropping into his neck of the woods by parachute so we can plot fiendishly later this week).

EDIT: The 10" filter still hasn't arrived yet. Its supposed to ship from S&B today or tomorrow. I spoke to Verocious today and they are hounding S&B to make sure I get blue and not red again.

Becker
08-23-2006, 05:32 PM
EDIT: The 10" filter still hasn't arrived yet. Its supposed to ship from S&B today or tomorrow. I spoke to Verocious today and they are hounding S&B to make sure I get blue and not red again.
I ordered the R1182 Monday. I called today and the lovely Kristen said it was shipping today and I could get my tracking # tomorrow. If this is true, yours should be on the way.

wbornio
08-23-2006, 06:54 PM
Matt -

I'm definietely IN on whatever concoction you Mad Scientists manage to package together... If you end up with RED filters - I'm definitely OK with that! In fact... sell me your 'lightly used' RED 12 inch filter once you get your 10 inchers in!

Will the F III v.2 package be available BEFORE GIFO or after?

Wayne

MattRobertson
08-23-2006, 08:07 PM
Will the F III v.2 package be available BEFORE GIFO or after?Well before I should think. I'm trying to powwow with CV in the next 24 hours to see if we can finalize what we're going to do and then put up a new thread.

BTW in case anyone is wondering we asked to make sure it was OK to do this as a fundraiser with the management here. It is.

monty1269
08-24-2006, 09:57 AM
I'd actually prefer the RED filter....It matches. Ya' got to coordinate right!?! And yes......I'm dyin' ova' hea'

:1puke:

MattRobertson
08-24-2006, 12:40 PM
The group build thread has been posted here (http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=39137). Please sign up there even if you have already PM'd me!

vile
09-06-2006, 10:22 AM
eagerly awaiting the face off

MattRobertson
09-06-2006, 10:26 AM
eagerly awaiting the face offCheck out the dyno numbers in the Frankentake dyno thread. We tested the 12" already, although it was not an official MFO event. Search for 'Frankentake' should bring it up pretty quick.

My personal feeling is the 10" filter we are using now on the mk.2 is going to match the 12" of the mk.1 in capacity for this engine, and the benefit we get in being able to lower the filter fully into the airstream is going to be the kicker, although not something we are going to be able to see on the dyno. Reminds me... I need to post up the 10" filter stuff. You can see a pic of it in the Frankentake Group Build thread.

MattRobertson
09-11-2006, 11:56 AM
Updated this thread a few days ago to add pics of the 10" filter, show the new gas recirc fitting parts and discuss their install.

Over the weekend I pulled my tube off of the car while fitting the new IAT grommet I discovered while working on the Frankentake Group Build. Seeing the underside of the tube for the first time since I put on the 10" filter ... a groove was worn into the tube. Thankfully I have a thick tube from a prototype piece I bought from Verocious.

Something about how that thing was sitting made it occasionally touch one of the edges of the pulley wheel, which wore a groove into it. Looking at the assembly at rest, there is plenty of clearance. However when driving there must be enough flex -- probably from the rubber elbow side -- to cause momentary occasional contact.

Solution to the problem was to put a hose clamp directly over top of the existing hose fitting, where the clamp screw assembly is on top. This creates a mini-shelf/support for the filter flange which in turn takes the tube well up over the pulley wheel. remember that the hose underneath is a solid mount so there is no flex on the lower part.

Then I covered the top of the hose clamp with a couple of layers of red 3M tape. This thin rubber tape is perfect as a way to eliminate metal-to-metal contact.

End result is the 10" filter is now sturdily supported but still remains low in the airstream.

On a different note I have been playing with the positioning of the filter in the tube. You can angle the tube in the elbow so it angles back a bit (as in: "put it in crooked"). Then on the filter side of the tube you do the same where the filter is angled back and down. The T-bolt clamps are wider than hose clamps and handle this circumstance well.

Net result is you angle the filter away from hoses in front that it may rub on occasionally, and furthermore move the filter further down into the cool air pocket.

h3bubba
10-05-2007, 12:14 PM
I purchased the Frankentake during the mass buy last year. Works great, sound from the engine is definately much more noticable as well. The only issue that I am having is that there is a whistle coming from the intake now. Any recommendations as to how to fix this?

bigkevin20
10-05-2007, 03:35 PM
whistle is normal

BlackSunshine
10-05-2007, 03:53 PM
Hey Matt, maybe I have missed it somewhere in the plethora of CAI threads, but was there ever a version of this, or even just testing done with the sensor moved from the elbow to a location closer to the filter? I'm just wondering if there are any gains to be had with this alteration.

Also, has anyone tried to simply vent off the gas recirc line rather then putting the K&N or Verocious part in at all? Perhaps putting one of those smaller K&N crankcase vent filters on a 90 Degree elbow right off the oil fill tower and avoiding the recirc system all together?


I know you used to be able to do this on a few of the older rides, nixing the feed of hot gases into the intake.

Great write up, I love this thing!

Chris

bigkevin20
10-05-2007, 04:42 PM
I made mine the same way except I used the factory tube and cut it. Then lubed it and forced my 4" pipe in it then clamped it. I paid no more than 75 bucks I think I also used locktight on my hose fitting and that sucker ain't going nowhere.
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x282/bigkevin20durango/IMG_0020.jpg
Gets really loud at WOT.

Now that I can compare pics I though my filter was big, that thing is huge.

h3bubba
10-05-2007, 11:09 PM
so where does the whistle come from?

Neo1130
10-05-2007, 11:18 PM
so where does the whistle come from?


The butterfly in the throttle body acting like a reed for a woodwind instrument... Such as a saxaphone or clarinet... Only since it is made out of metal and pretty thick, it makes it fairly high pitched...

HEMI~C~
10-05-2007, 11:36 PM
My version.... Stock SRT8 elbow with S&B 12inch filter :)

http://i158.photobucket.com/albums/t107/cmdufresne/P9260018.jpg

HEMMISSEY
10-06-2007, 01:14 AM
do these S&B filters have a built in Velocity Stack in them or is it just a straight thru filter?

MattRobertson
10-06-2007, 01:51 AM
Hey Matt, maybe I have missed it somewhere in the plethora of CAI threads, but was there ever a version of this, or even just testing done with the sensor moved from the elbow to a location closer to the filter?No although one was originally hinted at and planned. I never got around to it. If you want to play with this, remember there is no law that says the IAT sensor has to be inside the "I". Throw that base premise out the window and suddenly you can totally change the temp situation very easily.



Also, has anyone tried to simply vent off the gas recirc line rather then putting the K&N or Verocious part in at all?crankcase vents were shown to be a really bad idea for hemi motors early on in the Frankentake discovery process (its not in the KB version... sorry) and so all mention of them was deleted.


whistle is normalNot all the time. I personally have never had it. But I know others who have. I thought it was something confined to folks with TB spacers but I guess not. I have to wonder if you whistlers don't have an air leak somewhere. I dig that SRT version. Cheap and clean. The RT ver shown works just fine too. Basically its Big Filter Good and if you do just that you are well on your way.

RedAlert
10-06-2007, 01:56 AM
This is a very interesting write up! Great read.

Neo1130
10-06-2007, 02:15 AM
Not all the time. I personally have never had it. But I know others who have. I thought it was something confined to folks with TB spacers but I guess not. I have to wonder if you whistlers don't have an air leak somewhere. I dig that SRT version. Cheap and clean. The RT ver shown works just fine too. Basically its Big Filter Good and if you do just that you are well on your way.

Read my post above about the throttle body whistle...

MattRobertson
10-06-2007, 10:46 AM
I did :-). Most people don't have the whistle. Some who have added aftermarket throttle body spacers have reported this, and I have head of some who have added aftermaket intakes repot same, but the great majority of LX owners do not have this issue.

MattRobertson
10-06-2007, 11:06 AM
do these S&B filters have a built in Velocity Stack in them or is it just a straight thru filter?
Yes its built into the shape of the base, although I bet its not a true fully-optimal stack.

BurntOrange
10-06-2007, 11:15 AM
Great write up. Excellent. money saver mod with great gains i am sure.

Neo1130
10-06-2007, 06:21 PM
I did :-). Most people don't have the whistle. Some who have added aftermarket throttle body spacers have reported this, and I have head of some who have added aftermaket intakes repot same, but the great majority of LX owners do not have this issue.

Ever been in a 2nd gen Neon that had an intake? It is EXTREMELY noticeable... I don't think I have ever heard of a Neon that didn't have the whitsle with an intake...

ToddStone
11-08-2007, 11:27 AM
I had a whistle in my Dak when I put in the Airaid CAI. I kind of liked it. SOunded like it was pulling in a lot of air.

Venom
11-18-2007, 01:43 PM
i like mine a true cai
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f71/spankypence/Pic2.jpg

http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f71/spankypence/caiinfender.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f71/spankypence/caiinfender2.jpg
http://i45.photobucket.com/albums/f71/spankypence/caiinfender3.jpg

MattRobertson
11-18-2007, 02:28 PM
Get any gains? The GSM intake wihich is basically that design tested poorly. Did you remove the lower radiator baffle? GSM recommends that for their intake as without it (and they use exactly the same K&N filter) you get a low pressure area and starve the motor a little.

That same lower radiator baffle mod makes a short ram intake into an effective 'true cai' by flooding the filter area with ambient air. Its effectively a non-issue. Search for "intake air temp tests" to pull up the test threads and data spelling out this surprising bit of reality.

bigkevin20
05-01-2008, 12:38 PM
My newest version the "GIGANTICAI"
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x282/bigkevin20durango/200804301526_682.jpg

pioneer4x4
05-12-2008, 10:50 PM
OK, I'm totally confused. How is this a CAI at all? It doesn't even seem as good as the factory setup. I bet it is a LAI though, (Loud A## Intake). basically no different that what used to be called "Polish Headers" back in the 70s when you flipped the lid on the air filter. Bypass the silencing, but suck in hot air... Sounds good, but didn't run any better, actually worse when real hot.

MattRobertson
05-13-2008, 12:24 AM
Its not a CAI, strictly speaking its a short ram intake. If you read around you'll see how a pocket of ambient air can be created at that spot where the filter is so temperature is not an issue. No doubt if you read this thread alone you'll find links to it. Do an Advanced Search for "Chilly" in the title of a thread and you will see a how-to. Its a mod that was discovered about three years ago.

bbmakmak
07-16-2008, 05:51 AM
that weapon R intake is so small I cant believe I was going to even consider using it I'm so embarassed Hgahha

Quicksilver83
07-25-2008, 04:51 PM
Any ideas for a bracket to hold it in place or have none of you had any issues with the Frankentake hitting the serpentine belt? I'm going to build my own intake that starts off much like the Frankentake, but I can't see how that massive tubing doesn't occasionally hit the belt. Thanks for the help!

Also, if y'all are wondering why I'm making my own, it's because my AFE is rubbing the underside of my hood and I've heard that the replacement tube doesn't fix the problem. I've got a friend who powdercoats, so making it look good won't be a problem.

MattRobertson
07-28-2008, 05:59 PM
Any ideas for a bracket to hold it in place or have none of you had any issues with the Frankentake hitting the serpentine belt? That was something we solved in another Frankentake thread (there were several when this thing came out) but it never made its way back to this one. Thanks for the heads up!

Go back to Post #4, I think it is, in this thread. I plugged in the solution with pics. It is absolutely rock solid and is a perfect long term solution. I had it on my car without need for any modification throughout the life of the intake, which came out when I put in a 6.4L forged motor and an AirHammer early this year.

bigkevin20
07-29-2008, 11:25 AM
I would do what I did on my origianl intake. Buy a universal mounting kit from pepboys and mount it to the factory mount screw looks better IMO.
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x282/bigkevin20durango/IMG_0020.jpg
http://i185.photobucket.com/albums/x282/bigkevin20durango/200805300224_754.jpg

Quicksilver83
07-30-2008, 03:56 PM
Thanks for adding the clamp over mount to your post. That's a much easier route than the one I was thinking of taking with that same tube. I've got all of my parts now, save for a black vinyl HEMI decal to place on the tube. I'll try to post pics of the completed intake as soon as I get a chance.

Quicksilver83
08-17-2008, 03:58 PM
I decided to finally build my custom air intake taking some of the ideas y'all gave me. The air filter is a 4" I.D. x 9" long AEM Dry Flow for those who might have been wondering. I also decided to use a valve cover breather filter on the vent tube to save myself some time. I think it looks pretty good, but what do y'all think?

I haven't had it dynoed or anything (AWD Dynos are hard to come by in Aiken), but Quicksilver's performance feels like it is just as strong as it was with the AFE and without the rubbing. Tell me what you think. It's a simple design with a huge air filter and that's what I wanted. This excellent post made it a lot easier to complete the project without a hitch. Here's some pics:

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h182/BigOlly1983/BigOllyIntakeOverhead.gif

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h182/BigOlly1983/BigOllyIntakeSide.gif


The tubing and couplers were purchased from Intakehoses.com and the AEM filter came from Summit Racing. It cost around $115 or so, not including the HEMI orange powdercoating. It clears the serpentine belt and power steering tube with plenty of wiggle room too.

I originally posted this up on Charger Forums, but wanted to share this with y'all as I realize some members do not go from one to the other.

MattRobertson
08-17-2008, 05:51 PM
Good work. Something very much like this was going to be Frankentake IV but I more or less got out of homebuilt intake design after the F-III group build. The idea I had was that, since I had measured the size of the cool air pocket created by the lower baffle mod, I wanted to dip the filter down into it as far as I could. I had measured a temp elevation at the top of the filter area and the idea was this mod would get rid of that (I eventually used a scoop hood instead).

Its possible that this extra bend will introduce a flow restriction. Thats a common ding against the GSM, Hennessey, BWoody and now the recently released RDP intakes, which all share the same design but put the filter down low and have a 90-degree bend rather than your ... 45? I have no idea what the tradeoffs work out to in the end.

It would be real interesting if you have a remote thermometer and sensor and could get readings at different places on your filter element. Especially at the top side at the base. That was the warmest part on the F-III. Looks like yours would be well within the ambient air pocket.

bigkevin20
08-18-2008, 10:19 AM
Nice I like it! How does it sound?

Quicksilver83
08-18-2008, 03:06 PM
Thanks for the compliments! The filter lays right over the opening used for the factory air intake and I used a 45* bend because I didn't want an aggresive angle (90*) for the air to deal with coming straight into the assembly. One 90* bend right at the throttle body is enough for me.

It sounds just as mean, if not more aggresive than the AFE at WOT. One thing about it's performance: I did the intake along with the XE Ryder Chilly mod and 180* thermostat swap within a short amount of time of each other. My MPG has gone up 1-2 miles already since then. I didn't buy my Charger for the gas milage, but I'd like to think that an engine that get's more MPG is working more efficiently. I'm sure that more gains are possible when the fan temp settings getting changed after I install my Predator tune. I'd be happy to take some underhood temps for you. What is the remote temp sensor that you've been using?

MattRobertson
02-20-2009, 02:04 PM
Merged the two Frankentake III threads (Knowledge Base and General LX Discussion) into this one for clarity.

I should have done this two years ago...

http://foohbar.com/ul/modhat.gif

franco802
09-12-2012, 09:18 PM
subscribing.