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View Full Version : What does it cost to road race, and will I crash?



MattRobertson
10-13-2009, 03:00 PM
I was asked this question in another thread (two questions, really), and thought it deserved its own thread.


I'd love to come out sometime. Can you break down the expenses of things involved for me? What are some must haves to be competetive. I've got motor mods and LSD but what about recommended tires, brakes, trans/pwr steering coolers, etc. I just want to know what is involved.

Also how likely is a crash doing this?


I'll answer the last question first because it is the easiest: A crash is not likely so long as the driver uses his/her head. I would go so far as to say very unlikely given the number of crashes I see vs. the number of drivers on track over time. And looking at who does crash, and why.

With that said, there can be spectacular failures. And just last Friday I came damn close to hitting a wall at Infineon due to a loss of traction that was the result of inexperience on my part with how slicks behave on a cold day when they themselves are cold. I'll detail that incident in a separate thread.

You can be bitten anytime. However if you have the right attitude, and keep your head... that is the key to repeated, safe track events. If you don't... or you forget to respect the course and the situation you are putting yourself into... you'll go off track (at the least).

The best way to put and keep yourself in the right frame of mind is to run with an outfit that emphasizes education and awareness. Budoboy, you are in the perfect geographic location to take advantage of this, as Hooked On Driving is a track vendor all about safety-first, fun and education. They run primarily on a track that is fun and challenging but not particularly scary, and has lots of runoff so if you go off-track you are much less likely to hit something. They put instructors in the car with you for free, and don't let you move up into the faster groups until you demonstrate to a responsible instructor that you are ready for the higher speed and increased awareness that comes with open passing rules. And if you don't want to move up... you stay in the friendly A or B group and just have fun... you are still going damn fast on a race track and that is 99% of the goal for most folks.

NEXT...

What mods do I need to be competitive?

My answer first and foremost is : Mod yourself. Learn to drive the car. Spend nothing. Or as close to nothing as you can. I got into road racing because I saw strip racing as a deal where there is very little actual driving skill involved (yes I know I just pissed off all the drag racers... sorry) and the winner and loser is largely determined by the parts bolted onto the car. A Skip Barber Driving School instructor once told the crowd at the SRT Experience that they can teach perfect drag racing technique in... about 30 minutes. I could be Mr. Fast Guy one day and some other guy can throw on a bigger shot of giggle gas, or drag out his back seat... and boom. I'm suddenly a back bencher and have to go bolt something else that costs money onto the car to be better. Its about the car much more than it is the driver.

Road racing is the opposite. Look at all the videos I have put up showing me blasting past Lambo drivers, working my way past top flight Porsche GT3's, and edging past Ferrari Scuderias. Those guys in some cases spent hundreds of thousands of dollars on their 'mods' and they are slower than a station wagon because the one ingredient that matters - the driver - wasn't up to snuff. You cannot buy your way into road racing success no matter how much you spend.

I ran Infineon again a few days ago. I was running with a much more experienced bunch of guys and let me tell you, when I put up that video you are going to see Porsches blowing past me for a change. The car is no different... these guys know how to drive.

So absolutely, positively, you should spend nothing on your car (particularly since its an SRT which was designed to be capable of holding up for an occasional weekend track day) until you get yourself together, personally. Sign up for Group A at Hooked on Driving at Thunder Hill. Get yourself a free in-car instructor and take advantage of the mountain of advice they are going to give you in real time as you round the track. Doesn't matter how much experience you have. Heck, at the beginning of last season I dropped back to A group myself since I had never had any instruction, with the idea being I probably had some bad habits (turned out I had more than 'some', and still do). NO WAY would I be going as fast as I am now - where I can keep up with other experienced, advanced drivers in top-tier cars - if I hadn't done that.

edit: Also look into NASA HPDE. I still recommend HoD for your initial experiences, but NASA also has instructors, and NASA track days are less expensive (albeit VERY crowded and slow at the lower levels) and occur on weekends. If you are just starting out, a day with NASA is about $100 less expensive than any other vendor, who operates on a weekday and thus requires you take a day off.

OK so now lets really answer the question. HOW MUCH?
There are two parts to this answer. The mods and the cost of going to the track over and over again. I'll handle modding first.

You can mod the car, but there's an order you should do it in. You won't do it in this order, but you should.

Brakes:
Bigger is better. Physics and a 4400 lb curb weight make this imperative. SRT owners have the Brembos and this is a mixed blessing. The problem is that the Brembos are great for spirited driving and only adequate on the track. The weakness is the pads. There are plenty of Brembo-friendly track pads out there, but so far nothing has been found that is friendly AND is rated for a 4400 lb behemoth. Best bet seems to be either use the stock pads (which are godawful expensive unless you buy from the right online outlet) which do work well, or possibly use the ST-43 pads recommended by Porterfield Brake.
...
RT owners have the Wilwood option available to them and mountains have been written about that. Best option hands-down-nobody-else-is-even-close are W6A front calipers with insulated pistons, mated to SRT rotors, and in the back choose a Stage 2 kit that gives you caliper and rotor both. Put H pads on the front and B pads on the back for track use. BP10's and T's front and rear for street use. Stainless lines of course for better feel. Wilwood 570 fluid is cheap and effective. Wilwood EXP has the highest available dry boiling point on the market. Under no circumstances use drilled rotors.
...
The budget RT/SXT option is to put on better pads, [-]and[/-] stainless lines and put in better fluid.
TIRES:
The engine doesn't make the car go. The brakes do not make it stop. The suspension does not get it around the corner. Tires do all of this... its where the rubber meets the road. The single biggest mod is your tires. Doesn't matter what motor you have... good tires = fast times. Stickier is better. You can go about this a few different ways.
...
The least extreme way is to use your street tires if and only if you have sticky street tires. Nitto NT05's or Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercars are very good and available in stock sizes. The Nittos are a lot cheaper. I used Bridgestone RE-050A Pole Positions which have a 35-height sidewall and had excellent results with them. Pirelli now has a PZero in a 40-series sidewall that I bet will be an awesome tire.
...
The less extreme way is to get hold of another set of your stock rims and put the tires I mention above on them. Save them for the track. Track use wears tires out. When I was less experienced, a set of Bridgestones lasted about three days. BUT when I learned to drive, I got 9 days out of them and they are still in my garage ready for more. So when you learn to maintain traction and never ever EVER drift or burn out, your tires will last miraculous amounts of time on track.
...
The extreme way is to get a set of track wheels optimized for track rubber - we're talking slicks. In my case thats Hoosier R6 DOT radials, or the R100 pure race slicks I am going to. These tires are expensive at $300 and $380 each, respectively. An R6 las lasted me a max of 7 1/2 days so far. I have 6 track wheels so that when a tire lasts only half a day, I can put on another one and keep racing. Also slicks don't work in the cold or wet, so you still need a spare set of wheels to run street tires in the winter on track. I use SRT wheels shod with those Bridgestones mentioned above. My track wheels are Borbet TS 18x8.5's that cost me $200 each from Tire Rack, who also sells the R6. I have to buy the R100's directly from Hoosier.
COOLING: One word: Frankencooler. Read that thread and do all that stuff. If you have an SRT you can keep the stock radiator and be fine for all but the hottest days, which will pit you at some point in the summer. I reached 255 degrees water temp in September at Thunder Hill. Coming out of the gate your oil temps need help and the Mopar Police Oil Cooler kit should be your first step. Then do a second tranny cooler to keep your transmission alive. Do the power steering cooler to keep your PS pump from blowing like we've seen happen before. Do the second oil cooler because one has been demonstrated to be not enough.

At this point, I think you've reached the limit of what you should spend on an SRT unless you get really serious and start doing track days every month or less and you genuinely want to be at the limit. the above is the big-effect stuff. Everything else is big coins and lesser effect... they all add up. And they all add up to a significant benefit taken together. But the stuff above is the big-bang-for-the-buck list.

Now, on to track expenses.

Here's what it costs ME, first, and next I'll put down what it should cost someone who hasn't gone insane.


Track fee: Lets call it $275 for the day.
Gas to the track and back home. $50
Motel for the night: about $80
1/7 the cost of four Hoosier R6 tires: $300x4/7=$171
1/2 the cost of flipping (and inspecting) two tires at the tire shop to even out the wear due to street camber settings. $25
1/5 the cost of a set of H brake pads, front: 210/5=$42
1/10 the cost of a set of B pads, rear: 124/10=$12
1 bottle of brake fluid: $20 (sometimes two depending on the track)
1/5 the cost of two front brake rotors: 170/5=$34
Gas at the track, 20 gallons of premium: 20*3.25=$65
8 qts Mobil 1 15w50 + filter oil change before every track day: $50 (yeah I pay somebody to do the actual change... its worth it to me)
Maintenance cost: Something is always wearing out on my car thanks to the schedule I keep of at least one track day every month. Call it $200 averaged out over time as sometimes I need to spend more, sometimes I need to spend nothing.

Whaddya know. That works out to $[-]999[/-]1,024. Gahd what the hell am I thinking doing this? This is why I never write down how much I spend on the car, and bury the receipts.

You do not need to be in this deep.


Track fee is going to be the same for you or me: $275
Lets say you drive a local track and don't travel like I do. $15
Skip the motel since you stay local.
1/10 the cost of tires of your choice. Lets call them Bridgestone Pole Positions, which I have. $335 x 4 / 10 = $134 (edit: Nitto NT05's would be $225x4/10=$90)
1/5 the cost of a set of Bendix OEM replacement pads from rockauto.com, front: 50/5=$10
1/10 the cost of a set of Bendix OEM replacement pads from rockauto.com, rear: 55/10=$6
1 bottle of brake fluid: $6 (Wilwood 570. bleed the brakes after your day is done)
1/5 the cost of two front brake rotors from dodgeparts.com: 170/5=$34
Gas at the track, 15 gallons of premium: 15*3.25=$49
7 qts Mobil 1 0w40 + filter oil change before every track day: $35 (you have the time to change your own, and you are smart like me and buy it at Wal-Mart by the jug).
No maintenance needed as this is an SRT and it can handle an occasional track day without complaint.

$564 for a day, assuming the expensive tires. But the good news is thats *everything* including gas.

MattRobertson
10-13-2009, 03:25 PM
Above I list the A-Team mods. Whats the B Team?

Broadly:


Get the car breathing right. See to the intake, exhaust, cats and headers.
Find more torque somehow. Notice I did not say horsepower. That probably means a bigger motor. N/A solutions are better than forced air in that you want smooth, steady delivery that you have granular control over (as in "desensitize your throttle curve"!).
Stiffen the suspension. KW V2's are the most proven performer in terms of long term survival, and probably stiffness. The new adjustable sway bars that are out from Pedders and Stack look good. Poly bushings (Pedders) are a given if you have the money and want to finish off the overall job of suspension.
A limited slip differential certainly can't hurt.
Stiffen the body. Use front and rear strut braces. Put in a cage if you want to stiffen things futher.

Don't


spend money on half shafts unless you go seriously crazy on the torque. Mine are stock. Road racing power delivery is smooth and you can skip this mod more than likely.
use subframe extensions to stiffen the body. They take away ground clearance that you don't have if you want to set up properly in a track environment. With even 27" street tires like the Bridgestones you will take the car within 3/4" of the ground on some courses. With 26" slicks its even closer. Subframe extensions will require you to lift the car to avoid dragging them on the ground.
? (to be edited when I think of something)

EPIC SRT
10-13-2009, 03:31 PM
Once again Matt, great write up!

JarZ
10-13-2009, 03:39 PM
Yeah great info!
I would love just a single lap on the Laguna in my Magnum - no balls to the wall or anything, just a brisk cruise around the track would be amazing.

xevilpetex
10-13-2009, 03:58 PM
Matt, Im going to go ahead and say the PS cooler, Dot 4+ brake fluid, and Track oriented pads are more of a necessity when tracking these cars. A number of people had major power steering issues on their first day on a track with these cars and similar issues with brakes. With these three things you can run pretty hard without having to worry about breaking.

Ron380
10-13-2009, 04:02 PM
More good reference material here: http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=123923

Be Safe And Have Fun! :thumbs_u:

MattRobertson
10-13-2009, 04:10 PM
Matt, Im going to go ahead and say the PS cooler, Dot 4+ brake fluid, and Track oriented pads are more of a necessity when tracking these cars. A number of people had major power steering issues on their first day on a track with these cars and similar issues with brakes. With these three things you can run pretty hard without having to worry about breaking.
Yeah I consider the PS cooler to be absolutely essential on an RT. On an SRT you *should* have it as the system can still blow despite the enlarged SRT cooler. My A list above was really meant for an SRT. On an RT you have to go deeper on the mods to get out of the gate.

You don't need DOT 4+ fluid per se. The Wilwood 570 fluid is DOT 3 but its got a 570-degree boiling point, which is mighty high. I used it for a couple of years because of that boiling point, and because it was so cheap.

Pads are a given for an RT, but SRT pads are fine for a track day so long as you are talking A or B Group driving. Somewhere there is a pic of what happened to Cam's Wilwood street pads on his BSL6 calipers and cheese-grater (drilled) rotors. Burned 'em right down to the backing plates in less than a day's sessions. I had the same pads with smooth rotors and still took them WAY down. I know some RT guys at the Speedfest survived the day with stock pads. Roasted their fluid but the pads at least survived.

SoCalRT
10-13-2009, 04:27 PM
Great writeup as usual Matt...thanks,

xevilpetex
10-13-2009, 04:27 PM
Yeah I consider the PS cooler to be absolutely essential on an RT. On an SRT you *should* have it as the system can still blow despite the enlarged SRT cooler. My A list above was really meant for an SRT. On an RT you have to go deeper on the mods to get out of the gate.

You don't need DOT 4+ fluid per se. The Wilwood 570 fluid is DOT 3 but its got a 570-degree boiling point, which is mighty high. I used it for a couple of years because of that boiling point, and because it was so cheap.

Pads are a given for an RT, but SRT pads are fine for a track day so long as you are talking A or B Group driving. Somewhere there is a pic of what happened to Cam's Wilwood street pads on his BSL6 calipers and cheese-grater (drilled) rotors. Burned 'em right down to the backing plates in less than a day's sessions. I had the same pads with smooth rotors and still took them WAY down. I know some RT guys at the Speedfest survived the day with stock pads. Roasted their fluid but the pads at least survived.

The SRT ps cooler isnt up to the task. Mine blew out completely, two or three others had fluid overheat, and NYC-SRT8 suffered minor damage to his that had to eventually get replaced. It's less then $100 and maybe 2 hours of work to install it. It should be required for all LX drivers who track their car.

Pads wise, We had at least one driver who burned through the oem srt pads though the day and didnt notice until his caliper had been damaged. I think the speeds these cars are capable of on track warrents serious consideration as to what pads your using.

MattRobertson
10-13-2009, 04:44 PM
Was that all at NJMP at the LX track day?

Hemi Family
10-13-2009, 05:01 PM
Great list Matt, as you know I am in the process of all these upgrades and more. This is too much fun to be fustrated by lack of braking or traction.
One more thing, a tow hook is a good idea. If you do break down, flat, crash or whatever you'll need something to hook up to, otherwise risk loosing your front facia when they slap the tow hook to an a-arm.

markus
10-13-2009, 05:04 PM
great writeup matt!

MattRobertson
10-13-2009, 05:12 PM
Agreed on the tow hook. Problem is, if we are making up a list of stuff that the occasional weekender can do, is welding a tow hook into the frame of the car on that kind of person's list?

I ran without one for about 1 1/2 years. It wasn't until I spun out on Turn 2 at Laguna - and only got out of the sand trap without a tow because I was facing backwards, straight out - that I decided I had been on borrowed time. For the guy who does maybe a weekend a year... the lack of a hook is a risk that guy or gal will probably take.

budoboy
10-13-2009, 05:22 PM
Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. I've gone to a couple SRT track events and they were fun but using your own car and driving competetively would be fun. I'm enjoying the dragstrip now as I still have room for improvement and it is relatively cheap.

Funny you talk about people not being able to drive their Lambos, etc. Even at the dragstrip people are constantly running poor times in their Z06 vettes and KR Shelbys. On the other hand I saw some idiots in some GT-Rs run 11.6x's because of launch control.

xevilpetex
10-13-2009, 05:44 PM
Was that all at NJMP at the LX track day?

yep, and all with new drivers.

In the hand full of days ive done since, I've had no problem with my power steering. I've never had much of a problem with my brakes (EBC yellows and Castol LMA fluid)

Ron380
10-13-2009, 06:29 PM
The EBC Yellows have been very good for me too, but I'm the first to admit I "brake easy". :tinfoilhat:

I have had 1 PS Pump replaced already, though... (word to the wise!)

Steve Levin
10-13-2009, 06:31 PM
I think Matt has it covered pretty well. When I had my 300 the change that I made that I liked was fitting the Quaife LSD, but in retrospect I wouldn't do that. The advantages just aren't there in the end...the car is only going to go so fast.

That said, stock, you can get an LX hauling the mail and still not hammer the brakes, etc. Sure, it'll be slower, but in the end, you are never going to be the quickest, so what's the difference? :)

While Matt does time laps, I personally am against it. I think it leads to a tendency push and make bad decisions at one point or another. And there's no real granularity over the course of a lap to tell you WHERE you are doing better. In our race cars we have an AIM data acquisition setup that DOES allow us to review laps foot by foot and determine what works best. But raw time won't tell you that.

Something to think about is that NorCal groups like Hooked on Driving generally don't allow timing -- and while they usually allow folks to set a beacon, they will pull it quickly if they think someone is pushing. They rarely have cars getting flatbedded out of the track. Maybe 2 or 3 all year. Groups like Speedventures that promote timing and publish "results" average 2-3 cars AN EVENT leaving on a flatbed.

Obviously, each individual is different. I am deeply competitive (and that's why I ended up racing) and I can assure you I have chased laptimes and spun off, and a couple of times touched walls in doing so. Not everyone is like me :)

I will say that my spend for a track day, including having my car hauled to the track by the race shop that supports it, they take care of it during the day, etc., isn't much more than Matt's costs. Racing isn't cheap but it's not as expensive as you might think -- and the repair costs on true racecars are much, much lower.

Steve

RobAGD
10-13-2009, 06:36 PM
Ill break down NJMP Lighting from what I understand what happened.

NYCSRT8 aka Will - Checked his pads at lunch, only looked at the outside pad, didn't check the inner pad, wore them down to the backing plate and went off track at speed going into turn 1. Resulting into a tow home because the calipers were damaged from the pistons coming too far out of the bores.

Junior666 - Red Mist and a Pro Driver got him. The red mist was him trying to top Wills Front Straight top speed in a Jeep that weighs in at 5400#, hard braking and I think hawk brake pads and something about flaming brakes as he went off track going into turn 1. I think he drove home.

PaCharger aka Doug aka BoatBoy - Cut PS hose from accessory drive belt - Towed Home

NhDave aka NHPunky aka OF - PS pump ate itself up, drive home refilling the PS system every so often.

xevilpetex aka AngryCameraGuy - Killed PS pump, Not sure if he drove home or got a Tow

CTMSRT8 - May have had some pump damage I dont recall Drove home

I think that is all the issues from that track day.

No speaking on the SRT pads and RT pads.

I did the infield at Fontana, I boiled the fluid no less then 3 or 4 times, once while chasing Junior around, and almost collected a tire wall. When I felt the brakes going away I would cut my straight speeds way down and would glide a few laps and then get back into. This worked ok on that track.

Now, when I did a fluid flush when I got home, the stuff coming out had the color of Harps Beer, the stuff started out the color of say Bud or Coors so thats not good.

At NJMP I was running on RSA, and the Bendix pads ( touted as SRT pads, and they are not ), I only toasted my brakes once when I was really pushing session 4. The Pads held up well, I got the fluid a bit hot and the peddle got a tad mushie gave it 2 slow laps and it was fine for the rest of the day.

Now, NJMP Lighting is a very forgiving track, it is not super technical and is a great place for starting out and in all honestly its didn't strike me has overly hard on parts or tires.

I think the big thing is to know what the car is doing, getting a feel for it and then knowing when the car or something in it is not happy.

-Robert

TTMR
10-13-2009, 07:11 PM
If running RT brakes you will want a pad upgrade, Mine were melting on my first track day. Granted I seem to actually use my brakes:wink: and my EBC pads got juddery towards the end of my runs this spring at NJMSP. I have now upgraded to Matt's old Willwoods and will probably not track that car again:blam:

My only mods that really helped at the track are a front strut brace and DOT slicks, if you've got the coin they are worth every penny!

I love tracking my car so much that I decided to loose 1500lbs.
http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs033.snc1/4312_104530923711_512343711_2644338_3721212_n.jpg
Plan for the blue car is SCCA approved safty equipment this winter and start working on a competion license in the summer.

ET1970
10-13-2009, 07:32 PM
EXCELLENT MATT!!!!

I would like to mention that I typically run with NASA. I'm currently running with NASA in the Mid Atlantic region but I did run with NASA in the Southern California region for about 2 years. I also ran with them in the Northern California group for Laguna Secca a couple of times. Matt is correct that they are a little more congested in the slower run groups, but I think that is well offset that in the Southern California NASA group. They have group meetings with all the participants in the run group and the instructors after each session. This is a great opportunity to learn not only from yourself but from other participants that may have had an incident on track. Learning is why we should all be here. They also frequently discuss on track driving techniques and teach proper handling skills. When you move up in groups with them you will see a big difference in the skills of the drivers.

Next don't forget when you go to the track to take a few needed tools that maybe able to take care of small things at the track. I'm sure Matt can go over the things that he takes. Is is always nice to drive it home if you drove it to the track.

Finally, make sure to take care of yourself at the track. Proper hydration is important. If you want to keep your mind in the game while driving proper hydration is an important aspect. To many people forget that just because it may not be really hot that they are ok. The key here is if you are not emptying your bladder several times a day you are not drinking enough water.

I always find it help that after the end of the day go over the events. Ask instructors (not just your personal instrcutor that may have been asigned to you) for pointer on where to improve and them see how you can make those changes. Then pay attention to you and look for ways to improve your skills not how much faster can I go, but how much smoother can I be. The speed will come when you begin to see your skills improve.

xevilpetex
10-13-2009, 09:44 PM
xevilpetex aka AngryCameraGuy - Killed PS pump, Not sure if he drove home or got a Tow


I drove the 3 hours home with no PS.



Finally, make sure to take care of yourself at the track. Proper hydration is important. If you want to keep your mind in the game while driving proper hydration is an important aspect. To many people forget that just because it may not be really hot that they are ok. The key here is if you are not emptying your bladder several times a day you are not drinking enough water.


I've been told if you aren't taking a piss between each session, you aren't hydrating enough.

Cibalo
10-13-2009, 10:29 PM
Nice write up and good overall discussion. My question is how much does the track you're going to be running on effect the wear on the car? I would think that tracks with long straight aways where you can get up over 130 and then have to get down to 50 for the next turn would have a greater impact on a car than a course with shorter straight aways and higher speed corners. I've only run on one course so I have no feel for how other tracks go.

I ran my SRT stock out for a 2 day Performance Driving Experience where an instructor sat shotgun the whole time. Really learned alot about driving in those two days. I ran in August in Texas so it was a little hot. I never really pushed the car or myself until the end of day 2. During the 3rd lap my oil temp had reached 275. At that time I decided to slow it down. My brakes were in good working order and lasted me about another year until I changed them out. They still have some meat on them so I kept them around just incase.

I bought a PS cooler but elected not to install it while I was doing the oil and tranny coolers. Some of it was that we were running out of time and other was b/c the SRT has one built in. I still don't know when I'll make it back to the track so I'll try and get it installed before I go. Other than that I'm going with the stock slotted rotors and pads, steel brake lines, some Wilwood 600 fluid, Pedders Track II, front strut brace, and I bought an extra set of rims that I'll put some Nitto NT05s on.

skeletonizer
10-13-2009, 10:52 PM
Awesome thread.
Since anyone who tracks their cars is probly going to read this thread I am wondering if anyone has put in some laps with EBC Yellow pads. I know Ron380 has had good luck with them.

I have them on my SRT but have not used them for anything but the street yet. I have my old stockers that are about 1/2 gone and intend to use those if I ever get the chance to track it again, hopefully Heartland in the spring.

The only EBC reviews I can find are from marketing literature.

Posted via LXFMobile

Bud
10-13-2009, 10:59 PM
I think Matt has it covered pretty well. When I had my 300 the change that I made that I liked was fitting the Quaife LSD, but in retrospect I wouldn't do that. The advantages just aren't there in the end...the car is only going to go so fast.

That said, stock, you can get an LX hauling the mail and still not hammer the brakes, etc. Sure, it'll be slower, but in the end, you are never going to be the quickest, so what's the difference? :)

While Matt does time laps, I personally am against it. I think it leads to a tendency push and make bad decisions at one point or another. And there's no real granularity over the course of a lap to tell you WHERE you are doing better. In our race cars we have an AIM data acquisition setup that DOES allow us to review laps foot by foot and determine what works best. But raw time won't tell you that.

Something to think about is that NorCal groups like Hooked on Driving generally don't allow timing -- and while they usually allow folks to set a beacon, they will pull it quickly if they think someone is pushing. They rarely have cars getting flatbedded out of the track. Maybe 2 or 3 all year. Groups like Speedventures that promote timing and publish "results" average 2-3 cars AN EVENT leaving on a flatbed.

Obviously, each individual is different. I am deeply competitive (and that's why I ended up racing) and I can assure you I have chased laptimes and spun off, and a couple of times touched walls in doing so. Not everyone is like me :)

I will say that my spend for a track day, including having my car hauled to the track by the race shop that supports it, they take care of it during the day, etc., isn't much more than Matt's costs. Racing isn't cheap but it's not as expensive as you might think -- and the repair costs on true racecars are much, much lower.

Steve


That is interesting Steve. Is your opinion of the LSD for our cars based on "cost vs. benefit" and you'd just be shaving tenths off of your time...if you are timing?

TTMR
10-14-2009, 11:35 AM
My EBC's were ok in the front and great in the rear. I did have a little bit of an issue with them overheating but I was going for lap times and was useing them HARD. This was witht the smaller RT pads so your's are bigger, but an SRT should go a LOT faster down the straits than my piddly little V6 managed. xevilpetex has run them on his SRT iirc so he should have a better answer for you.

skeletonizer
10-14-2009, 11:56 AM
Yellow or red? I ask because most EBC equiped LX's out there seem to have the Reds.

Posted via LXFMobile

TTMR
10-14-2009, 12:40 PM
Yellow.

infinity04
10-14-2009, 12:56 PM
EXCELLENT MATT!!!!

I would like to mention that I typically run with NASA. I'm currently running with NASA in the Mid Atlantic region but I did run with NASA in the Southern California region for about 2 years. I also ran with them in the Northern California group for Laguna Secca a couple of times. Matt is correct that they are a little more congested in the slower run groups, but I think that is well offset that in the Southern California NASA group. They have group meetings with all the participants in the run group and the instructors after each session. This is a great opportunity to learn not only from yourself but from other participants that may have had an incident on track. Learning is why we should all be here. They also frequently discuss on track driving techniques and teach proper handling skills. When you move up in groups with them you will see a big difference in the skills of the drivers.

Next don't forget when you go to the track to take a few needed tools that maybe able to take care of small things at the track. I'm sure Matt can go over the things that he takes. Is is always nice to drive it home if you drove it to the track.

Finally, make sure to take care of yourself at the track. Proper hydration is important. If you want to keep your mind in the game while driving proper hydration is an important aspect. To many people forget that just because it may not be really hot that they are ok. The key here is if you are not emptying your bladder several times a day you are not drinking enough water.

I always find it help that after the end of the day go over the events. Ask instructors (not just your personal instrcutor that may have been asigned to you) for pointer on where to improve and them see how you can make those changes. Then pay attention to you and look for ways to improve your skills not how much faster can I go, but how much smoother can I be. The speed will come when you begin to see your skills improve.


Hi Eric, I also race with NASA Northeast region, going to NJ motorsports track Nov 1, question :Are you running a stock tranny with your current mods? Also what tires are you running on the track? Reason I asked is I toasted my tranny at the Glen a few weeks ago running a techo SC w 5psi on a forged 6.1 motor. waiting for my paramount tranny to get here.

CT-MSRT
10-14-2009, 01:07 PM
i lost my power steering pump 5 laps into the first session on turn 1 and barely kept my car on the track; it was the only time that entire day that i put a single wheel on the dirt. Turns out i had some air in there and cavitated the pump. Purged it and refilled and ran for the rest of the day with no issues whatsoever. I usually did 4-5 laps on it hard and 2-3 off to cool everything down. My oil temps were hitting the 260 degree mark and my bendix brakes were HOT. fluid cooling and at least EBC yellows should be a mandatory start for anyone considering tracking their car. At the very least upgrade the front pads to yellows since they do the most work.

CT-MSRT
10-14-2009, 01:32 PM
Yellow or red? I ask because most EBC equiped LX's out there seem to have the Reds.

Posted via LXFMobile

red for daily driving, yellow for track. Some keep their yellows on year round.

skeletonizer
10-14-2009, 01:38 PM
red for daily driving, yellow for track. Some keep their yellows on year round.

I use the yellows year round on the street. They do grab much better when hot but they are far from a hazard when ice cold in the winter. This has made me wonder how they would do after several hot laps, if they would stay strong or if they would fade.

TTMR
10-14-2009, 01:43 PM
No fade on my part, just some juddering in the steering wheel.

ET1970
10-14-2009, 01:49 PM
Hi Eric, I also race with NASA Northeast region, going to NJ motorsports track Nov 1, question :Are you running a stock tranny with your current mods? Also what tires are you running on the track? Reason I asked is I toasted my tranny at the Glen a few weeks ago running a techo SC w 5psi on a forged 6.1 motor. waiting for my paramount tranny to get here.

Yes. the trany is currently stock. I did the frankencooler setup which has kept the engine temps down and i'm sure it is doing a good job keeping the trany cool as well. So, far no problems. I know i'm pushing the envelope and it is most likely only a matter of time. I'm looking to see if I can keep the temps down if things just may stay together. This just might be a good testament for the frankencooler and lower trans temps.

There was a discussion between Matt and I in a earlier thread about tires. Currently I'm using Hoosier 285/35/18 R6 for the fronts and 305/645/18 R100 for the rear. On my next set i will most likely move to the R100 for the fronts as well.

I'm looking at the event being planed at NJMP in March. If things work out I would love to come and check out this track for a day.

Here is the thread with the tire discussion.

http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=178358

MattRobertson
10-14-2009, 03:53 PM
This just might be a good testament for the frankencooler and lower trans temps.

When we dropped the pan on my tranny and inspected at the beginning of this season, we were kinda stunned by how good it looked after two years of monthly abuse. Nice ruby red fluid. Shiny gears -- shiny everything -- and only a bit of silt on the magnet. Considering what I do to it, always running in a numbered gear and usually at 5k rpm's plus... it was a Christmas miracle. One of the first things [email protected] said was "thats what happens when you keep the fluid cool".

xevilpetex
10-14-2009, 07:08 PM
At the very least upgrade the front pads to yellows since they do the most work.

Surprisingly at my last day the rears Brembo sticker discolored to a gold color (from white) but the fronts didn't. I have to assume that they were getting hotter then the fronts that day.


No fade on my part, just some juddering in the steering wheel.

Yeah, i get the juddering too, but as the day wears on it lessens to the point where its not an issue.

MattRobertson
10-15-2009, 12:06 AM
Surprisingly at my last day the rears Brembo sticker discolored to a gold color (from white) but the fronts didn't. I have to assume that they were getting hotter then the fronts that day.
Or two different production batches of sticker?

If the rears were getting hotter than the fronts, that would mayyyybe indicate a too-aggressive pad selection in the back? I know I have over biased the crap out of the rear and the car is handling it great, but I am using Wilwoods.

Also, I forgot an expense in the first post and have added it in: Tire flipping to make up for uneven wear due to street camber settings when race camber would be best on the track, but would ruin my street tires.