PDA

View Full Version : Thunder Hill lap record falls... off a cliff.



MattRobertson
09-13-2009, 07:53 PM
OK, so you guys know I like to tell a story, and this is no exception, so here we go.

Turn back the clock a few months. Early this season I run Thunder Hill with my timing gear and acquire the football for fastest lap. While I had run it before, this was only the second day I'd done it on slicks. I knew it wasn't really a blistering time... but it was a respectable one for the kind of car I was driving. My intent was to get up on the scoreboard and give someone something to swing at.

Fast forward to one month ago, when I ran Thunder Hill again. Its been a good season for me and I am now allowed into the advanced run groups of every vendor. While at the track, a couple of other guys had timing (the vendor doesn't allow them officially, but you can sneak them on with a wink, sort of). One guy in a stock C6 was significantly slower than I was, the other in a hollowed-out-and-caged-but-otherwise-stock late model Carrera was significantly faster. In fact he was one of the very few guys who was faster that day. So they tell me their times. One was at about 2:15 and the other about 2:05. Since it seems I'm smack between the two of them, and my personal best is 2:17... well, its time to get some gear out there and make it official.

September's track day (I try to do one a month) was scheduled to be Laguna Seca on Monday the 14th. Instead I moved that to Thunder Hill on Friday, the 11th. I sign up with TrackMasters, who are known for NOT packing the track. Where others might put out 30 cars in a session, they'll put out 25. I opt for a Mixed session, which is a step down from Advanced. Still open passing and mostly Advanced drivers, but high intermediate drivers can sign in. In the past, I have run with TrackMasters at Laguna and Advanced with them was solid with full-on race cars... what the Race Prep group would be if they had one. I am comfortable with that on my home track, but I'd rather not go there this time around. Thus I pick Mixed... besides, in Mixed there have hardly been any intermediate drivers anyway and that means open passing with a field of mostly street legal cars. An Advanced group with a different name. Fine and dandy.

http://lelandwest.com/auto-tech/magnum/sig_pointby_02.jpg

So Thursday afternoon rolls around and I finish putting the last few bits in the car (most of the loading was done the prior weekend... 6 wheels, 4 5-gallon fuel jugs, lawn chair, ice chest, tools etc.) and I set off for the track. I've got a room booked at the Palatial Chateau de Days Inn resort for the night.

80 miles later, 200 more to go, bored and thinking thru what I packed, I realize I should have done that in the driveway. I forgot my lap timer. The whole purpose of the damn trip to this track.

160 miles later I am passing the same spot as I was three hours earlier, only this time I have the lap timer. I'll be checking into the spa a little late. About 11:30pm. Track opens at 6:45 and I need to be there when it opens...

... because its going to be a scorcher. 103 is the projected temperature. In the shade. And all the magical extra cooling I have in the car is probably going to be inadequate to the task based on my previous month's engine temperatures.

Where was I? Oh yeah get there early because Thunder Hill has these marvelous 25-ft steel canopies covering only part of the paddock. Park under the canopy and you aren't baking in the sun all day. Thing is, they only cover about 1/3 of the available area. So I need to get there on time to ensure I get my pick of spot. I say "My pick" because I have done this enough to know the canopies are tall enough to let the afternoon sun blaze in and onto the poor saps who park on the wrong side. I have learned this the hard way.

So I get there, I get my spot, I get checked in, my wheels switched, numbers put on... everything in good order and plenty of time to spare. Word in the drivers meeting says that we are going to get our best times in the morning as once it gets hot its going to get very hot, and the track is going to get greasy right about the time you can fry an egg on it, around lunch time.

So I have to get out there and jump on it. No sweat, my memory of the track is fresh, its warm enough at 9 am that I'm not concerned about cold tires ... and I'm not in the habit of taking prisoners anyway. So lets go! And I do. I get out only two or three cars back from the very front, which is helpful. The only two guys in front of me, IIRC, were a C6 Corvette sporting track tires itself (thats unusual) and a big, badass, blood red Viper coupe. An '06.

Here's the video (http://lelandwest.com/auto-tech/magnum/091109_session1.wmv). Its the usual monstrous file taken in reasonably high resolution and widescreen format.

Summary: The Viper put up a fight for 1 1/2 laps but as you can see it was over after the first turn. The C6 on track tires, fortunately, didn't hold me up for so long and I got 'round him after a turn or three. Note that any car with a big orange dot on the rear is a high intermediate driver and I cannot pass that driver without a point-by. Unmarked cars are fair game for open passing but its always a good idea to give them and you'll see drivers not required to do so pointing as a safety measure.

http://lelandwest.com/auto-tech/magnum/sig_pointby_03.jpg

That first session, I knew I would do well when the first clean lap came in at 2:15. Two full seconds off the record right off the bat. Subsequent laps jumped down to 2:14's, then a couple of 2:13's before the session ended.

The second session of the day (video here... (http://lelandwest.com/auto-tech/magnum/091109_session2.wmv) again its huge) gave me the best time of the day. I ran a 2:12.31 on the very last lap and that was with traffic. You'll see a spec E30 (it looks like a street legal BMW but its not) refused to believe he was slower and - fortunately for my blood pressure - he wasn't by much. On the last lap I forced the issue and dove past him since he didn't want to move over (a little later on the straight than I should but the guy was pissing me off something fierce by then). Without him and the intervening traffic that you will see going with him, I might have reached my goal for the day, which was 2:10.

http://lelandwest.com/auto-tech/magnum/th21231.jpg

The third session of the day made for the best video (http://lelandwest.com/auto-tech/magnum/091109_session3.wmv) I bet. I started out right behind a Ferrari F430 (late model V8), and wound up chasing the guy for most of the session. The guy definitely knew how to drive as he was a real handful to chase down, and I told him so when he and his passenger came by to chat after the session. It must have been something to watch because people were coming up to me for the rest of the day and talking about it. Remember that when he disappears from the in-car video he's still chasing me, at least for awhile. One of these days I'll do a rear bumper camera.

There's more going on, but you'll have to watch :-)

http://lelandwest.com/auto-tech/magnum/th091109_01.jpg

That third session ended the morning, and already it was getting too hot to get good times. In fact if you watch closely you will see drivers I am running down lose traction here and there. Partly thats due to them pushing the car past its limits before they accept that I'm faster, and part of it is the heat affecting the road surface. For the two afternoon sessions, I had to back down because the motor got as high as 255 degrees and thats not so good. The afternoon sessions were spent doing heat management... running all thru in 3rd gear and accelerating as little as possible. Using momentum for all its worth. Not the stuff that makes for exciting television.

Worth noting was a first: All day long, throughout all the videos... you will see me pass plenty of cars. You will never see anyone pass me. I didn't realize it until after I got home that night, but nobody passed me all day long. Not once. Note the Viper driver you see in the first session pulls right out of my way in the second (and he good-naturedly said "I just got the hell out of your way" in the paddock afterwards). In I think the second session, I went out as the first car in the hopes of getting some clean balls-out lap times... but I was going so fast I ran into the tail end of the grid when I came around. May as well have started last... but it made for some good footage running thru the crowd I imagine.

Why did I do so much better this time than the last time I was timing? My equipment was identical, and I had a respectable amount of experience on this track. Part of it was simple seat time. I've had a bunch this season, and its been high quality. That seat time gave me the experience to really haul the mail around the track. Note the tire noise as I go along. Its almost continuous which is no surprise... until you remember I am wearing Hoosiers, which are usually silent. But I'm now pushing them to their limits. Look at, for example, the front straight. Thats about 135 mph at the end, in 4th gear. I am decelerating into 3rd and taking Turn 1 at roughly 100. The short transition into Turn 2 is no slower and I am rocketing into and thru the sweeper in Turn 2 *way* fast in third gear; not dropping to 2nd until after I finish an acceleration post-exit from 2 and during my entrance to 3. Look at how fast I shoot up and onto some of these guys' bumpers, just from doing that one thing better and faster, one gear higher than I used to go.

This is why I do road racing. I have the same car I did last time... Its not about the car. Its about your personal ability to drive it.

http://lelandwest.com/auto-tech/magnum/sig_pointby_01.jpg



The heat situation is going to be a whole other thread as we puzzle thru that one.

Magnum Power
09-13-2009, 08:03 PM
Matt, thanks for posting. While most of us cant do what you do, we can all dream. Looks like you had a blast.

GasGunR
09-13-2009, 08:17 PM
On the road, can't wait to get to a real connection, (on cellular), so I can watch the videos! Thanks for sharing Matt!

MattRobertson
09-13-2009, 08:35 PM
I just realized there's a way for me to take screen shots of the videos I'm making from windows Moviemaker (duh!). Posted up some ... pics :-). Damn I wonder what other unmined gold I have in all these tapes?

rwines
09-13-2009, 08:40 PM
god...that looks like so much fun........how can I find out more about these types of events? ......how would a S/C set up like mine preform on the twisties???? Probly a bit better with n/a?????

MikeEast
09-13-2009, 08:40 PM
<right-click> save target as

I always enjoy watching you run Matt, pretty freaking cool that a car so similar to mine on the outside is out there running with the big-dogs and doing very well indeed!

That's gotta be so indimidating to the others - seeing something as unique and completely wrong for this event as a Dodge Magnum chasing down Corvettes and Ferrari's.

Like you said - it's not all the car - the driver has a lot more to do with it on a road course. That's probably why I like drag racing. :-)

Mike

Magnum Power
09-13-2009, 08:42 PM
Seeing your windsheild, it looks like you never cleaned it from the last video I saw.

Coopers_Dad
09-13-2009, 08:44 PM
Another epic day! Thanks for the detailed writeup I really enjoyed reading it!

netnathan
09-13-2009, 08:57 PM
Matt..
Great story and videos.
To see the fruits of your labor is sweet.

Nice work for the LX platform....and yourself.

..

MattRobertson
09-13-2009, 09:04 PM
Seeing your windsheild, it looks like you never cleaned it from the last video I saw.
hah! I knew someone would say something about that. I drove 4 hrs to get there and forgot to clean it beforehand. I'm actually surprised it looks as clear as it does. In front of my face it was fine but the rest of it was a mess.


That's gotta be so indimidating to the others - seeing something as unique and completely wrong for this event as a Dodge Magnum chasing down Corvettes and Ferrari's.I had a lot of guys asking me the same question: What possessed you to turn a wagon into a race car (their words)? My answer is one of two:

1. "Well, I had driven these cars on track (SRT Experience) and knew they could be made into something with a little work. I was looking at buying a Porsche Cayman S but I figured the Dodge would be a fun project, and I'd be the only guy out here running one. You can't swing a dead cat without hitting a sports coupe. But there's only one Hearse From Hell.

I thought it would be cheaper than the 40 grand I'd throw down for the Cayman. Now I know it would have been cheaper to buy the Porsche."

2. "Just to f**k with people."


god...that looks like so much fun........how can I find out more about these types of events? ......how would a S/C set up like mine preform on the twisties???? Probly a bit better with n/a????? Look for race tracks in your area. Visit their web sites and check the race track calendar. Backtrack from there to find out who is selling track day time on that track... and sign up at the novice level. N.A.S.A. is an excellent starting place, in that its cheap and slow, and you get an in-car instructor. Perfect for beginners. Not so much for guys with experience as they make you start from the ground up no matter how much experience you have elsewhere.

As for your S/C setup... there's a LOT more that goes into a road course car than the motor. Road coursing is about durability as much as it is anything else. Strip racing is about being all you can be for a few seconds and there are probably more than a few performance motors out there that would blow sky high if you tried to run them for 20-25 minutes like that. BUT if you are just starting out you aren't going to get into that territory anytime soon if you do it smart and get instruction. And there's nothing wrong with a blower... I could use another 100 hp to get my power-to-weight more in line with the other cars on track and a low-boost blower would get me there.

fnkychkn
09-13-2009, 09:10 PM
astounding story and pics, Matt (still downloading videos). wish i could do that (just not that talented or coordinated).

bigjim
09-13-2009, 09:42 PM
Great write up as usual Matt (videos are downloading). I will forward Limerock dates when they become available in the spring, unfortunatly my season won't start till then. Money issues are slowing the collecting of the finish parts to make my Magnum into what I wanted it to be the day I drove it off the lot 4 years and 11 months ago. Videos are 31% now, enjoy the evening!

JimIsland-SRT8
09-13-2009, 09:58 PM
Cool vids. Thanks, I enjoyed it!!

BlueBee 6.1
09-13-2009, 10:00 PM
What a maggie, wow. It is extremenly satisfying to see a maggie overtake an Z3 M coupe, a Porsche and especially a Ferrari F430...holy smokes that's amazing!
Great car and great driving.

InvictuSRT8
09-13-2009, 10:00 PM
awesome passing a Ferrari:thumbs_u:

CT-MSRT
09-13-2009, 10:00 PM
awesome write up and video's. I'll never get tired reading about "The Hearse From Hell"

xevilpetex
09-13-2009, 10:01 PM
As for your S/C setup... there's a LOT more that goes into a road course car than the motor. Road coursing is about durability as much as it is anything else. Strip racing is about being all you can be for a few seconds and there are probably more than a few performance motors out there that would blow sky high if you tried to run them for 20-25 minutes like that. BUT if you are just starting out you aren't going to get into that territory anytime soon if you do it smart and get instruction. And there's nothing wrong with a blower... I could use another 100 hp to get my power-to-weight more in line with the other cars on track and a low-boost blower would get me there.

All those engine heat problems you've fought through would be exacerbated by slapping a blower in the car. Not to scare rwines away, but I'm not sure having a power adder like that would be able to stand up to extended amounts of time on the track unless you had a very large intercooler and some serious cooling measures installed.

CT-MSRT
09-13-2009, 10:05 PM
All those engine heat problems you've fought through would be exacerbated by slapping a blower in the car. Not to scare rwines away, but I'm not sure having a power adder like that would be able to stand up to extended amounts of time on the track unless you had a very large intercooler and some serious cooling measures installed.

I completely agree with Pete. The other issue is smoothness of the power delivery. The way the tuning is done to make part throttle safe for the motor would screw you up something fierce exiting corners. The power would not be smooth and you'd be constantly kicking the back end out and backing off the throttle. I'd honestly say gear down the car. You have the torque, change the gears to 3.55 or 3.73 and get your mechanical advantage there, don't mess with the refined power you have right now. You don't race anywhere where a lower top speed would kill you anyway.

bigjim
09-13-2009, 10:25 PM
LOLLLL, I love the OH SHLT at 9:30 on the fisrt vid!

MattRobertson
09-13-2009, 10:27 PM
Interesting thoughts guys.

The plans that are just beginning to germinate would be mindful of all the things brought up... The heat issue alone is major. Consider the fact that I already have three coolers where the blower's would go... thats gotta be dealt with. And as you might guess I have the throttle curve seriously desensitized to ensure granular control. A lot of guys would think the car is underpowered based on how much travel you have to put the loud pedal thru to get up a head of steam.

If anyone is wondering why there's a break in session 2, its because I realized I forgot to put gas in the car. A quick pit is way better than getting towed in. Been there and done that. I ran thru four full 5-gallon fuel jugs plus 10 gallons in the tank at start. Another sign I'm pushing harder than ever. Used to be only three jugs.

xevilpetex
09-13-2009, 10:36 PM
I just watched the first vid and one question i have for you Matt.

Are the the track marshals seriously cool with you crossing over the blend line for pit out on your approach to what I'm assuming is turn 1? That's black flag during a track day/drive through penalty **** in a race. I'm sure you glanced over to make sure no one was coming out of the pits, but that's a pretty dangerous move just to get a better angle on the turn.

MattRobertson
09-13-2009, 10:36 PM
LOLLLL, I love the OH SHLT at 9:30 on the fisrt vid!Wait until you see #2.

About that. I put up a still shot from that one showing the near aftermath. The Z3 M went into Turn 14 -- essentially a 120-degree hairpin that you sort of take as a single big arc with Turn 15 -- too hot and he paid the price. He comes to rest about 110 degrees turned around... right smack where the Ferrari is going to be in about two seconds, and its a blind corner. There is a corner worker right there who saved the day by going ape$hit and the Ferrari driver did what we are always warned to do -- watch the corner worker. He swung wide and avoided t-boning the stationary BMW at speed.

I didn't exit the corner particularly fast after passing the Bimmer myself as I was swinging wide and waving my arm outside the car in the hopes the Ferrari would see me. But he was too far back and the corner was too sharp. Only the corner worker saved that day.

Last month, I think it was a Porsche that spun out just over the summit of Turn 9. Before the flags could go out, another car came up and over and plowed into him at Warp 8. Took about an hour to clean the mess up. Nobody hurt but both cars were wadded up bad.

http://www.thunderhill.com/assets/images/trackmapnew02.jpg

bigjim
09-13-2009, 10:41 PM
I also hear you on the fuel consumption, I was unable to do two 30 minute sesions on NJMP without fuel, I think 3.5mpg was what I figured. Best money spent. I have been fortunate to not be at any event with bent cars. I hope that stays.

RobAGD
09-13-2009, 10:42 PM
Matt once again :not_worth

Awesome videos are downloading...

-R

MattRobertson
09-13-2009, 10:42 PM
Are the the track marshalls seriously cool with you crossing over the blend line for pit out on your approach to what im assuming is turn 1? Thats black flag during a track day/drive through penatly **** in a race. Im sure you glanced over to make sure no one was coming out of the pits, but thats a pretty dangerous move just to get a better angle on the turn.
Its normal procedure and expected on that track. How to do it is discussed in the drivers meeting. Standard entry to Turn 1 is all the way over, and you can probably see everyone else doing the same thing if you look for it.

The grid marshal doesn't let anyone out until its clear, but yes you are warned to pay attention and not to go in there if someone screws up their timing and sends someone out. Its a black flag offense to apex Turn 1 if you are just coming on track. When you are just coming out you stay left unless you are the first car coming out for the session.

On Thunder Hill I have always seen good timing on the part of the marshals for track entry. Infineon is a whole other ball game. Very dangerous track entry and the marshals - who are independent track emloyees at both venues - seem to be complete idiots who will wave you out no matter what is coming up at 140 mph. Or at least they were the last two days I was there.

xevilpetex
09-13-2009, 10:49 PM
Its normal procedure and expected on that track. How to do it is discussed in the drivers meeting. Standard entry to Turn 1 is all the way over, and you can probably see everyone else doing the same thing if you look for it.

The grid marshal doesn't let anyone out until its clear, but yes you are warned to pay attention and not to go in there if someone screws up their timing and sends someone out. Its a black flag offense to apex Turn 1 if you are just coming on track. When you are just coming out you stay left unless you are the first car coming out for the session.

On Thunder Hill I have always seen good timing on the part of the marshals for track entry. Infineon is a whole other ball game. Very dangerous track entry and the marshals - who are independent track emloyees at both venues - seem to be complete idiots who will wave you out no matter what is coming up at 140 mph. Or at least they were the last two days I was there.

That surprising to hear. It just seems like a bad and inconsistent precedent to set for drivers who are still learning.

MAGFX
09-13-2009, 10:57 PM
Dang Matt, I am on the edge of my seat, as I am reading this. Love it.

Yep, you will nail that 2:10 next time. Good luck!

diboblo
09-13-2009, 11:10 PM
Amazing account and videos of your track day!

Thanks for posting your track adventures :)

What camera mount are you using? I'm running one that mounts to the passenger head rest, but I get too much vibration...

Bob

MattRobertson
09-13-2009, 11:22 PM
That surprising to hear. It just seems like a bad and inconsistent precedent to set for drivers who are still learning.
Remember this is an advanced group. With HookedOnDriving, you have to be signed in and evaluated over time to get into Advanced. With this vendor its not so stringent but I suspect its typical to keep drivers out of that lane if they are in the beginning or low intermediate groups. You *can* get into trouble for merging unsafely into that lane even when allowed. There was a question about one guy doing it last time in the download session but both drivers agreed the closeness was an optical illusion (the observer who questioned it was midway on the straight) and there was plenty of room to safely merge.

MattRobertson
09-13-2009, 11:30 PM
What camera mount are you using? I'm running one that mounts to the passenger head rest, but I get too much vibration...
Here it is at K-Mart (http://www.kmart.com/shc/s/p_10151_10104_2508090000000001P?vName=Computers+%2 6+Electronics&keyword=camera+mount).

I paid about half that on EBay. I am using a basic bottom-of-the-line video cam with basic image stabilization. Uses a tape to record for smooth frame rate, and widescreen. Video is upside down and I use Windows Moviemaker to rotate the image 180 degrees. Only the newer Windows Moviemaker versions support widescreen mode.

netnathan
09-14-2009, 12:21 AM
Video is hot to watch.
Had me leaning in my chair.....lmao.

..

xevilpetex
09-14-2009, 01:01 AM
Remember this is an advanced group. With HookedOnDriving, you have to be signed in and evaluated over time to get into Advanced. With this vendor its not so stringent but I suspect its typical to keep drivers out of that lane if they are in the beginning or low intermediate groups. You *can* get into trouble for merging unsafely into that lane even when allowed. There was a question about one guy doing it last time in the download session but both drivers agreed the closeness was an optical illusion (the observer who questioned it was midway on the straight) and there was plenty of room to safely merge.

I'm not sure being an Advanced track day driver is really any excuse. Guys holding FIA superlicences (F1 drivers) are still required to respect the blend line.

I'm not slighting you at all, I'm just really surprised any organization putting on a track day would put themselves on the chopping block for possible litigation by telling all the drivers to ignore a track safety feature that is universal amongst road courses throughout the world.

MattRobertson
09-14-2009, 01:19 AM
I'm not slighting you at all,
oh I know. This is just how it works on this course as established by the track itself. I know what you're saying about the line being a concrete wall. Try that on Laguna and its a black flag for sure. Probably would on Infineon too but the location of the lane makes it a physical impossibility unless you are going 35 instead of 135. There the danger happens once you get out of the lane.

rwines
09-14-2009, 01:59 AM
cool ....thanks for the info..........I cant wait to give it shot........wasn't sure if that boost kickin in would spin you through the turns......its kinda sracy sometimes....thanks again

Ron380
09-14-2009, 10:03 AM
Congratulations again, Matt! I haven't been able to watch the video's yet, that will be tonight! :not_worth :thumbs_u:

Edit: Whew- finally got to watch the video's! Well done, Sir! :pepper: :banana:

SoCalRT
09-14-2009, 11:04 AM
Great write-up and awesome detail, thanks, Matt...

BritishNate
09-14-2009, 11:51 AM
That is awesome I am going to watch the vids now....

Centurion
09-14-2009, 01:04 PM
/me needs to get back into racing... If my job were more flexible, I'd come join ya Matt! Great work!

MattRobertson
09-14-2009, 01:22 PM
Do it man! There's nobody to play with out west and you are right in the middle of all the good tracks in NorCal.

concussion
09-14-2009, 01:28 PM
Matt, I love it man.

Your posts just make me want to rob a bank so I can expedite my build.

I'm downloading the vids now so I'm sure I'll go ape sh!t once I see 'em.

cheers kid, keep up the good work.

Burleson

mofoninja
09-14-2009, 02:36 PM
Good stuff Mat! Looking forward to annoying folks @ the PNW tracks with my Mag. Did you attend the SRT Experience session in Portland, OR?

novawagonmaster
09-14-2009, 02:46 PM
Matt,
Excellent write-up as always. Your accounts of track day experiences get me itching to get out there and give it a go. Kudos to you for hurling that beast around the track at speeds that make the exotic drivers weak in the knees! I will watch the videos after work tonight, but I know based on past experience, they will not fail to impress.

Keep up the great work, buddy!:not_worth

09-14-2009, 04:14 PM
Matt, good job, i look forward to meeting you one day.

CircuitMotorsports
09-15-2009, 02:19 PM
Very nice. Looks like a fun track to drive.

You figured out your cooling yet?

I think I read you're using a custom radiator correct?

MattRobertson
09-15-2009, 02:54 PM
Looks like a fun track to drive.Yeah thats a singular characteristic of this track. It is very technical but at the same time its proportions are such that you can get up a good head of steam and keep it. Plus there are very few walls so if you go off and keep your wits (i.e. let the car go where it wants to) you won't suffer too much damage, if any. Its also 3 miles long so its a good sized track.


You figured out your cooling yet?Bob and I talked it over yesterday. Rather than blow a buttload of money on increasing my cooling capacity more than I already have, we are going to tinker with different incremental things. Racing in 100+ degree weather is a rare occurrence and I don't want to reinvent the wheel (as in: blow about $1,000) unless there's more of a reason to do so.


One item on the menu is to go to a larger percentage of water vs. coolant. Water wetter + water is the best, but then you lose the corrosion protection that 'coolant' gives you. So rather than 50/50, I'm going to flush and go to 70/30 water/coolant. If I can find some corrosion-resistant water-wetter, thats going in as well.
Next, the upper baffles have taken a little bit of a beating thanks to the extra plumbing I have installed for the auxiliary coolers I have up front. Maybe I'll use some metal HVAC tape to rebuild the air dam surface I ave lost and get that air directed back thru the radiator, instead of around it.
It might not be the worst idea inthe world to jack up the hood in the back on race day to more quickly exhaust the heat thats building up. Give a better flow thru path for air.
Turn both fans on at engine start or similar via Diablo
There is a zany idea on the table for an ... unusual ... aux cooling system. Details at a future date.

Items 1 thru 4 are probably enough to take me back from the brink when its 100+, but it'll be at least a year before I find out. The weather broke and temperatures dropped like the day after I raced. In October its almost certain to be quite a bit cooler at Infineon.

When it isn't super-hot, my cooling system is nails. Nothing gets overly hot. Even on track this time, tranny fluid never got past about 200.


I think I read you're using a custom radiator correct?Not exactly. I am using the Maximum Duty rad, which is export-restricted and a step above the Severe Duty II / SRT rad. Supposedly its use is limited to Middle-East spec cars, and it has fittings that required no small amount of grief to work into a U.S. spec car. That and two oil coolers (one of which relies on heat exchange with the water system), two tranny coolers and a power steering fluid cooler.

Ron380
09-15-2009, 03:49 PM
You'd need to get a Cool-Shirt for yourself, but did you turn the heater to HOT and crank the fan up? Would that help cool the engine much? Would you get heat exhaustion by the end of the session?

Do you already have the Viper-style hood on your Magnum, like Grinner had on Lil' Suzy? The vents in the back might help... ?

joelvan
09-15-2009, 04:00 PM
Im glad to see you had a good time.

MattRobertson
09-15-2009, 04:53 PM
You'd need to get a Cool-Shirt for yourself, but did you turn the heater to HOT and crank the fan up? Would that help cool the engine much? Would you get heat exhaustion by the end of the session?turn the heater on... gawd I haven't done that since I was in college, 18 years old, driving my '69 Plymouth Valiant (225 Slant 6) thru the desert and I needed that heater on to keep the car from boiling over on the highway. That car was positively indestructible. And I tried. Then it was firebombed. But thats another story entirely (the first three cars I owned all made the news. The Raunchy Rabbit and the Toyota Valdez were both on the radio... and the Deathmobile made the 6-O'Clock News on two TV stations).


Do you already have the Viper-style hood on your Magnum, like Grinner had on Lil' Suzy?Nope. Not cuttin' up my hood.

TTMR
09-15-2009, 05:44 PM
Stellar sir, you continue to take these cars where they weren't ment to go, but go the same.

CircuitMotorsports
09-17-2009, 01:11 AM
Yeah, if you don't want to cut up your hood raising it at the rear will help evacuate the hot air that builds up in there.

The more forcefully direct air at that radiator will help too.

Do you have your headers wrapped, or are they stock with stock shielding?

Carfinish
09-17-2009, 05:54 AM
little late to this thread.....Matt, another great read... another great thread....thank you and congrats pal....downloading vids now

Ron380
09-17-2009, 09:46 AM
Yeah, if you don't want to cut up your hood raising it at the rear will help evacuate the hot air that builds up in there.

The more forcefully direct air at that radiator will help too.

Do you have your headers wrapped, or are they stock with stock shielding?

I haven't seen any "scientific" studies, but I've seen a few debates on other forums that raising the back of the hood would create a high-pressure area in the rear of the engine compartment (cowl-induction hood), and actually reduce airflow around the engine...

Matt- you've modified every other piece of the car, why not install louvers in the hood? If they're cut into the right places, they'd give you a lot more airflow! ;) They're typically 1/2 to 2/3 of the way back from the front edge. It would be easy enough to tape strings on the hood, use your camera to film the hood, then go for a drive!

09-17-2009, 10:29 AM
I haven't seen any "scientific" studies, but I've seen a few debates on other forums that raising the back of the hood would create a high-pressure area in the rear of the engine compartment (cowl-induction hood), and actually reduce airflow around the engine...

I'd have to agree, that's why cowl induction hoods work well.

The extra heat under the hood isn't going to effect things at speed as much as we would think it would.

I would work harder on a air dam of some sort under the car to grab more air in to the radiator.

TTMR
09-17-2009, 10:48 AM
I'd think about heading to the nearest GM dealer and finding a car with a similar width nose as the magnum. Many GMs have a nice long plastic dam that blocks some of the airflow under the car and sends it up into the radiator. They are also soft enough to bend out of the way when they hit the ground.

MattRobertson
09-17-2009, 12:12 PM
We weren't thinking of the hood being a help at speed for exactly the reasons you guys mention. At speed its not going to help. The point would be when its at low speed going to the grid, or sitting at the grid waiting to go. It would help exhaust heat *then*. Usually I shut the motor off when I can in the grid but you can't always do it. I go from 180-190 to 205 just on the way to the start... mostly because of the residual heat from the previous session. And of course I have the hood up inter-session after the engine runs a few minutes to cool down.

Like I said... baby steps.

No wrap on the headers, although they are Polydyn coated... and its flaking off. So much for pro grade coatings. No way am I pulling the headers out to wrap them. If I'm going to spend that kind of time/labor I'll do a radiator and increase cooling capacity. Attack the problem directly. Its almost not a problem now... only happens at the extreme of outdoor temperature. In two years I have never had this happen, but then again I've never raced when its 104 either.

MattRobertson
09-17-2009, 12:15 PM
I'd think about heading to the nearest GM dealer and finding a car with a similar width nose as the magnum. Many GMs have a nice long plastic dam that blocks some of the airflow under the car and sends it up into the radiator. They are also soft enough to bend out of the way when they hit the ground.Good idea, but with 26.2" tires, soon to be 25.5", and a 2" drop, I don't have the ground clearance for *any* undercar protrusions. My underbody shroud bolts are ruined. Need a box of those on GP, and I keep spare shrouds in the garage for this reason, believe it or not. One jack pad on the side is ruined from scraping it in a corner. Gotta see if I can buy and bolt on another one of those. Rockers are *nasty* if you crawl under and look.

No room for scoops, but I did replace the upper grille years ago with an EGR stainless mesh, which is the most open of all the grille options out there.

MattRobertson
09-17-2009, 12:45 PM
... you've modified every other piece of the car, why not install louvers in the hood?I've really sort of taken a vow on mods... I decided some time ago that I would stop spending money on tweaking it and only spend money on what it takes to enjoy it, or fix what I've broken while doing same. Over the last couple of years I have pretty much stuck to that except for the addition of six 18" track wheels.

And if I do spend any substantial money, its going to be for a substantial need. Thats why just about the only serious mod I would consider would be a custom radiator ... probably something 3" deep with uberpowered, manually-driven fans. Attack the problem directly at its source if real money is going to be spent.

If you don't draw a line in the sand on mods, you just wind up painting the Mona Lisa... and the masterpiece will never be finished. So just go drive it is my thing now. With all the stuff I have done (and my ridiculous mods list is not complete in that it doesn't include my brake upgrade to my brake upgrade, and a couple other small things) I can come up off the top of my head ...


A blower or turbo to make up for the power to weight deficit I have with dedicated race cars and supercars. With tuning and a bro deal on the equipment thats probably 8 grand.
Half shafts due to the above. 2 g's installed?
Widen the fenders to accommodate serious tire widths. 3 g's? Wild guess on my part.
Custom forged 18" x 10" wheels to fit over the brakes and under the new fenders. $3g's from CCWheel ( and of course my tire costs will go way up).
edit: I forgot I need another set of wheels for the street since the car will look ridiculous with wide fenders and stock wheels. Add another 3 g's
Roll cage. $1500 on the bro deal.
what the hell. Lets throw in a custom radiator. $800+install is gonna be another grand.

[-]I'm pushing close to $20,000[/-] I'm over $20,000 and thats only a partial wish list. Its gotta stop. Especially given the results I am already getting with what I have. I'll spend my ass on tires that wear out or things I bend, and thats it if I can help it.


It would be easy enough to tape strings on the hood, use your camera to film the hood, then go for a drive!
Hah I have actually done that and the results were totally inconclusive. Back when I did the Air Temp Tests II stuff. They blew all over the place in every direction. Also tried it over the brake fluid reservoir in the back behind the hood (trying to see if we had suction at that point with a stock hood, with the reservoir cover removed). Same useless result. I never published it.

Ron380
09-17-2009, 01:03 PM
^ Totally understandable, Matt! :thumbs_u:

It's funny the "string test" didn't work out... I'll have to try that myself, just for grins! :mrgreen:

TTMR
09-17-2009, 04:26 PM
So what you are saying Matt is if a vendor wants their stuff to hold the lap records they just need to send it to you?

Gotta look out for a friend right?

xevilpetex
09-17-2009, 07:55 PM
[LIST]
A blower or turbo to make up for the power to weight deficit I have with dedicated race cars and supercars. With tuning and a bro deal on the equipment thats probably 8 grand.


You know theres a slightly cheaper way to work on that power to weight ratio right?:wink:

Its already a track/weekend car right? Put the cage in, gut the interior and get some race seats. If its not your DD and you've gone this far already then why not? I mean if you get a full cage, you wont be able to use the back seats because of the cross bars (you wont need the crash bars back there if there are no seats). You could gut the front doors too since your cage will provide the structural protection from side impacts.

Next year you should show up with a car fully prepped for NASA's AI class. These GM and Ford cars need a big mopar wagon up their ass for once.

I mean look at this camaro already built for AI http://www.carriagehousecustoms.com/CHCA/2010-SS1/2010-SS1.html
http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35285

You know you want it :racing:

MattRobertson
09-18-2009, 10:03 AM
gut the interior and get some race seats. Hey I can do that now. Almost. And I have. If you take out the upper and lower floors in the back, and the rear seats, and the front passenger seat, you save about 200 lbs. Maybe a little more. That plus the spare (I'll take it as a given thats gone already from anyone's car) makes for say... 240? Then swap out the driver's seat for a Sparco. Lets be generous and say we are now at 300 lvbs off.

You have now slimmed down to a petite, girlish ... 4100 lbs. B. F. D. Spittin' in the ocean. You still need a power adder to get past a GT3 on a straight :-(

Besides... Been there and done that, although I haven't really discussed it. I pulled my interior clean out for a couple track days. It changed the weight ratio enough that the back end wanted to come loose a LOT more easily. So much so that when I went back to Infineon in July I ran with a full interior again... Thats one place you need every opportunity to stay stuck to the ground, as several poor saps found out the hard way. When I did have it out... yeah it was a little better but not enough to matter against the targets I was aiming at. Boo hoo.

oh and we're gonna add back some of that weight when the cage goes back in. Boo hoo hoo.


If its not your DD and you've gone this far already then why not?See vow above. I still drive it around some. And I just sold my Toyota (CoolVanilla will be crestfallen... it was his favorite ride) so I'll have more opportunity to use it.


I mean if you get a full cage, you wont be able to use the back seats because of the cross bars No way Jose... There are cage designs that will work and preserve the back seats. I won't be able to recline the fronts for sure, but we can keep the backs fully functional.



Next year you should show up with a car fully prepped for NASA's AI class. These GM and Ford cars need a big mopar wagon up their ass for once. I would be a lot more interested in NASA if I didn't have to slog my way up thru HPDE I to get to where you are talking about. I've talked privately about this with a couple other guys. NASA is *crowded* and *slow* out here. 60+ cars at Infineon when I was there with them in March. Best I could get at the end of a day was solo HPDE I. which means best I can do is signed off for HPDE II on the second day, HPDE III on the third... It'll take me four track days minimum to work my way thru the system out here, and I'll have to suffer thru some very crowded tracks to do it. NASA has the big advantages of being cheap and run on weekends, but man... I'd be giving up all my decent seat time for maybe half the year just to get where its interesting.

*maybe* I'll consider trying to suffer thru the process again next season. It would be neat to branch out and once you get up into the higher ranks the crowding issue seems to sort itself out.

Damn that Camaro is badass.

xevilpetex
09-18-2009, 02:45 PM
I would be a lot more interested in NASA if I didn't have to slog my way up thru HPDE I to get to where you are talking about. I've talked privately about this with a couple other guys. NASA is *crowded* and *slow* out here. 60+ cars at Infineon when I was there with them in March. Best I could get at the end of a day was solo HPDE I. which means best I can do is signed off for HPDE II on the second day, HPDE III on the third... It'll take me four track days minimum to work my way thru the system out here, and I'll have to suffer thru some very crowded tracks to do it. NASA has the big advantages of being cheap and run on weekends, but man... I'd be giving up all my decent seat time for maybe half the year just to get where its interesting.

*maybe* I'll consider trying to suffer thru the process again next season. It would be neat to branch out and once you get up into the higher ranks the crowding issue seems to sort itself out.

Damn that Camaro is badass.

I'm fairly sure you can bypass the HPDE level system if you can provide proof that you have experiance in an open passing environment.
http://www.nasaproracing.com/proracing/license.html



No way Jose... There are cage designs that will work and preserve the back seats. I won't be able to recline the fronts for sure, but we can keep the backs fully functional.

I'm not really sure on that one. There are 6pt roll bars of various designs for drag cars that will not impeed on the rear seat area, but a proper race ready cage is probably going to have a diagonal bar from the top corner of the hoop above and behind the drivers head to the rear passenger side (usually at the top of the rear strut tower) and rear bracing bars from the top corners of the main hoop, down to the chassis. These bars will make the rear seat un-usuable (other then the fact that having thick steel bars infront of a passenger is a major liability)

CircuitMotorsports
09-18-2009, 04:04 PM
Yeah once you cage up a car it becomes unstreatable. At least for rear passengers.


That's why you have to draw a line between fun weekend car and track toy.

formerice
09-18-2009, 04:06 PM
Instead of a supercharger, a small shot (100 hp) of nitrous for those times when you want to pass right now.

Ron380
09-18-2009, 04:09 PM
^ Hey Matt- first Magnum ever with an "Overtake" button on the steering wheel! Just like the F1 guys! :pepper:

CrazySRT8
09-18-2009, 04:26 PM
Racings all good! its good to see someone livin the dream, to me, even being in that group would have me a smiling all week long, gotta love this ****!

MattRobertson
09-18-2009, 05:28 PM
I'm not really sure on that one. I've seen two different ones. Nathan has one that I wouldn't use (sorry Nate, nothing personal) and I can't recall who has the other, but there are certainly more than two out there.

The rear section is a square over the passenger compartment. Behind that it goes back diagonally to the strut tower, with additional bracing behind the second set of seats IIRC. There is a horizontal crossbar behind the front seats, where among other things the 5-pt harnesses get attached. Its about waist height when seated. As for passengers I don't think I've had anyone in the back more than once or twice in five years.

Whether I put one in or not is still a tossup, but if it does go in it'll follow the models we've seen already in that it will preserve the usability of the rear seats.

TTMR
09-18-2009, 05:35 PM
Matt, you're going so fast now that a cage might be a really good idea. I'd hate to read that one of the overtaxed tires failed and sent you hard into a wall. However it would be much less saddened to read it in your own hand.

MattRobertson
09-18-2009, 05:47 PM
I hear you on the cage. Part of the issue is finding time for the fabricator to get it built.

Speaking of tires, last time I talked to Hoosier they were much more upbeat about what I was doing since I have been inspecting after each use, and cured an impending failure with increased pressure: light stress cracks at 42 psi cold, nothing at 47 after many days, with perfect edge-to-edge wear. Hoosier's recommended target hot pressure of 65 is proving tough to get up to on all tracks but Laguna. I'm usually right at 60.

Also tire wear is stabilizing very nicely. The pair of tires I expected to kill that were at Day 7 instead lived on. No tread band anymore but no sign of cords either. BTW Hoosier said they were perfectly safe to take down to cords. There's another layer of rubber under the first layer of cords, and more cords after that.

So I am going to Day 8 with that pair. The two tires I have on the front with 6 sessions - not days, sessions - on them (I am marking session and position count on each tire sidewall) will be flipped, and the reserve pair that are pretty worn down will stay in reserve. Probably coming into use at Infineon on October 9. And I have two more worn but usable tires in the garage. I may not have to buy tires until 2010.

EDIT: Just signed up for Infineon on October 9.

xevilpetex
09-18-2009, 05:59 PM
I've seen two different ones. Nathan has one that I wouldn't use (sorry Nate, nothing personal) and I can't recall who has the other, but there are certainly more than two out there.

The rear section is a square over the passenger compartment. Behind that it goes back diagonally to the strut tower, with additional bracing behind the second set of seats IIRC. There is a horizontal crossbar behind the front seats, where among other things the 5-pt harnesses get attached. Its about waist height when seated. As for passengers I don't think I've had anyone in the back more than once or twice in five years.

Whether I put one in or not is still a tossup, but if it does go in it'll follow the models we've seen already in that it will preserve the usability of the rear seats.

Those might be NHRA legal but i dont think they would be SCCA/NASA legal if the rear bracing from the main hoop isnt going down at a 30 degree angle or more.


Item 5.
Bracing - Open and Closed Automobiles; and add a new paragraph
to section 18.6.1.a as follows:
All main hoops shall incorporate a
a. Main Hoop Bracing:

Rear Braces: All main hoops shall have two (2) braces extending to the rear, attaching to the frame or chassis. Braces shall be attached as near possible to the top of the main hoop not more than six (6) inches below the top), be outboard as much as possible, and at an included angle of at least thirty (30) degrees. Rear braces may penetrate required bodywork provided the resulting hole serves no other function, and the holes are sealed around the braces.

Diagonal Braces: All main hoops shall incorporate a diagonal brace to prevent lateral distortion of the main hoop. The brace shall either be in the place of the main hoop, or extend from the top one rear brace (described above) to the bottom of the opposite rear brace. Automobiles with mid mounted engines can have the lower mounting point attach to the frame of the automobile within 6 inches of the main hoop. In the case of braces in the plane of the main hoop, the brace must span at least 50 percent of the width of the main hoop, and at least 75 percent of the height the main hoop. Refer to the figure.adjacent.

MattRobertson
09-18-2009, 06:06 PM
Oh yeah I've never been trying to be SCCA compliant. Just wanting to not get killed in a rollover.

xevilpetex
09-18-2009, 08:33 PM
Yeah, but i have this weird feeling that the NASA/SCCA cage regs are a pretty good rubric to go by for putting in a cage that will keep you from getting killed in a road racing environment.
I wouldn't want to compromise my safety to keep usability of the rear seats when you hardly ever use them, and even with the space being accessible its a bad idea to put a number of steel bars directly in front of a passengers face in the event of an accident. If you get a cage put in, i would reconsider trying to keep the rear seats usable.

Are you thinking about just a roll bar or a full cage (A-pillars, halo, full door bars etc)? If you are thinking about just a roll bar, i would say a full cage might be worth considering. It will provide much greater protection in the event of a non roll over crash. If you plow into a wall at infineon with just a roll bar you might be in serious trouble, but with a proper cage you could very well walk away unscathed.

MattRobertson
09-18-2009, 08:45 PM
There's no way it can be a cage and be able to keep my usability goals for that car. What it'll be is a glorified bar. Diagonals coming up out of the floor in front, a hoop behind the driver's head that has a horizontal reinforcer/mount for the harness. Two rearward-facing bars that follow the roofline for a bit and drop down behind the window to the frame, likely with a diagonal that connects to the strut tower. Probably with a second side to side reinforcement at the point where the rear diagonals tie in.

If I were to put a diagonal cage in the rear, the cargo carrying capacity would be out the window. As in no more six tires and four fuel jugs, plus ice chest etc... We'd be talking trailer as a requirement, and not some cute little coffin deal like I was exploring a while back.

I'm serious about increasing my survivability of course but the car needs to stay dual-purpose.

Edit: One possibility would be cross-diagonals that slip-fit and break down with something like a clevis pin, or even a bolt. That I'd consider.

MindDrive
09-18-2009, 09:37 PM
freeking awesome!!! ive always wanted to drive a road coarse and now i feel almost as if i have :D thank you so much for posting that video and now i feel the addiction and am already trying to figure out how i can get on a track with my 08 daytona to see how it would do as it sits off the showroom floor

ive taken it to the drag strip (the first time ive ever been in a 1/4 race) and got a 14.77 at 95.77mph, ran about a dozen times just for the thrill of it, but a drag strip quickly lost its appeal... now i see this road coarse and a new thrill is kindling inside... i have a feeling im going to be spending a great deal of track money next year!!!

RobAGD
09-19-2009, 10:00 AM
Matt - I think you are thinking of the cage tht is in Erik/HemiC's Magnum very well thought out and still very usable.

-R

MattRobertson
09-19-2009, 02:38 PM
HemiC... thats it. I saw pics some time ago. I had forgotten Erik had one as well but DUHHH of course he has to have a cage with his times :-)

Steve Levin
09-24-2009, 02:16 PM
I'm not sure being an Advanced track day driver is really any excuse. Guys holding FIA superlicences (F1 drivers) are still required to respect the blend line.

I'm not slighting you at all, I'm just really surprised any organization putting on a track day would put themselves on the chopping block for possible litigation by telling all the drivers to ignore a track safety feature that is universal amongst road courses throughout the world.

Actually, drivers ON TRACK don't have to respect the blend line at all -- even in an F1 race. Drivers coming out of the pits have to respect the blend line in an F1 race and not cross over.

But on average for racing (including SCCA and NASA events) the 'blend line' isn't enforced on pit exit either (at least in the typical sprint races where there are generally not pit stops).

If anything at Thunderhill, Matt wasn't getting far enough over, IMO, leaving a good couple of feet of pavement out there a lot.

Steve

CircuitMotorsports
09-24-2009, 02:58 PM
I got scolded once for not staying as far to the outside as possible when exiting the pits at Sebring. It was a NASA HPDE event.

It's just a safety thing.

MattRobertson
09-24-2009, 03:48 PM
Yeah that puts you in the boat Steve was talking about: Since you were exiting the pits you were not yet an on-track car, so you have to stay over.

MindDrive
09-25-2009, 05:32 PM
hey matt, is that a picture of a rotor that got really really hot in your sig??

Jaak
09-25-2009, 05:44 PM
Thanks Matt, always a joy reading about your track time!

MattRobertson
09-25-2009, 06:32 PM
hey matt, is that a picture of a rotor that got really really hot in your sig??
Probably. The sigs rotate every 30 minutes but I assume you mean this one

http://foohbar.com/magnum/sigs/brakes02.jpg

or this one

http://foohbar.com/magnum/sigs/brakes01.jpg

Those were my old Wilwood 2-piece rotors. The aluminum hat was painted black and you see what the heat did to it. Happened all in one day at Laguna Seca.

I've posted pics of roasted rotors before. The one below was a couple of sets back. The ones I pulled off on Wednesday look worse than this (click to enlarge and be freaked out).

http://lelandwest.com/auto-tech/magnum/dead_rotor_sml.jpg (http://lelandwest.com/auto-tech/magnum/dead_rotor.jpg)

Much worse. BTW I replaced them with completely smooth, $55 rotors from rockauto.com. I'll post something up about them soon. So far they are working great. We'll see how they do.

...

I am now signed up for


October 9 - Infineon
November 14 - Infineon
December 18 - Laguna Seca

and I am crunching the numbers to see if I can afford to do Oct 23 on Laguna. Laguna as a track is more expensive but since I live so close I more than make up for it in hotel and gas costs I don't have to pay. Plus I am getting a ridiculous deal on Laguna in December (only $190) so I may be able to swing a 14th day into 2009. Green Flag also has a 2-day deal at Buttonwillow and I would really REALLY like to do that, but its Thanksgiving weekend. If my daughter is not coming down I might do that instead, but that means I spend Thanksgiving weekend in a rathole hotel in BF California. Not so sure about that.

MindDrive
09-26-2009, 06:12 PM
oh wow that is some massive heat tempering... only way ive known metal to do that is by almost becoming liquid and then solidifying rapidly... im supprized a chunk of those didnt go flying

and i thought i drove hard LOL!!!

Shelby
09-26-2009, 09:17 PM
Much worse. BTW I replaced them with completely smooth, $55 rotors from rockauto.com. I'll post something up about them soon. So far they are working great. We'll see how they do.



I am sure everyone will be interested in the performance of these rotors.

Ron380
09-26-2009, 09:37 PM
I just hope the rest of the group remembers that Matt has rotors on the "consumables" list! If he gets 2 or 3 track days out of a set of inexpensive rotors, that may not be very helpful for the folks who don't road-race their cars. ;)

Best of luck with these, Matt! I hope they last longer than the pads do! :thumbs_u:

MattRobertson
09-27-2009, 12:33 PM
two or three days?!? I get *much* more than that. I got five days out of my last ones. Well, ok I got five days out of my left one. The right one had to go after four and I dipped into my supply of used rotors (10 of them in the garage, now) for one I thought would be OK for a day.

10 rotors plus two more new ones as a backup. I could go into the boat anchor business.

I'm now paying attention to whether or not a single rotor is usable as, on tracks like TH and Laguna, you moiderize the right side tires and rotors. I flip the tires from left to right, but you can't really do that on track with the rotors.

One thing I have confirmed with the smooth rotors is the H pads don't eat into them on the street. Also they are made by Raybestos and performance is something you never see with SRT rotors: "smoooooth" braking. No noise from the slotting. Not something you realize until you take it away.

And yeah... what I want out of a rotor is different than what most everyone else does. I'm interested in reducing pad wear, and the life cycle is so short that they almost certainly never warp. Actually, they did as they wore when I had the BSL6's but the W6A's ... smooth as silk right up until the time I remove them.

BUT... iron is iron. Chances are very good they will have the same longevity as the SRT's. And they are not grooving with even the nasty pads.

magnitude
09-27-2009, 09:08 PM
Damn nice racing there Matt. Had such a blast watching the vids.

I don't know much about racing, how do you rate the Ferrari driver? Looks like he (initially) had an edge on the straights, but you came back so fast approaching/going into the corners. Driver ability? Brakes? Other?

Todd TCE
09-27-2009, 10:22 PM
There's just something not 'right' about Matt.

But I like it.

Ron380
09-28-2009, 11:55 AM
ROFL! :mrgreen:

MattRobertson
09-28-2009, 01:49 PM
I don't know much about racing, how do you rate the Ferrari driver? Looks like he (initially) had an edge on the straights, but you came back so fast approaching/going into the corners. Driver ability? Brakes? Other?
Well, here's the thing about the *typical* Ferrari owner: They tend to be pretty sedate folk. Ferraris are usually not treated as track cars so usually ... they are some of the slower cars on the track but the owners tend to be among the last to pull out of your way; not really understanding that just owning the car doesn't make them fast. This is not so much a Ferrari thing as it is a newbie thing, but the fact that the Ferrari has the rep it does contributes to these same drivers-of-lesser-experience signing into run groups that are beyond their ability to drive.

Thats got a lot to do with the video footage out there showing me blow past the Ferrari's you've seen up to this point. Its the driver and not the car (like always). This guy however knew his way around the track. You'll see more than a few places where he executes passes in good form or, when I do something like misjudge where I should shift... bam he's gone and I have a lot of ground to make up. I had to work to catch him.

He's not the first one. I can recall a guy on Buttonwillow when I was there early this year where all the guy did was run his Ferrari on track ... and he traveled with a mechanic and trailered the car. No shortage of money there... which you need when tracking a Ferrari regularly. They aren't particularly durable based on what I have heard in the paddock from their owners, but when you get one with a good driver behind the wheel, watch out.

Along those lines, another guy who was there that day told me he brought his Porsche to the track because he knew if he brought his Ferrari, it'd overheat.

:-| Nice problem to have.

magnitude
09-28-2009, 07:57 PM
when I do something like misjudge where I should shift... bam he's gone and I have a lot of ground to make up. I had to work to catch him.

Ah, couldn't tell if you made a mistake when the Ferrari pulled away. Noticed him losing the backend in a few corners when you were pushing him, damn fun to watch.

Heard about Ferraris requiring lots of maintenance and are hell to work on, but prob. true for many exotics.

Steve Levin
09-30-2009, 06:05 PM
Green Flag also has a 2-day deal at Buttonwillow and I would really REALLY like to do that, but its Thanksgiving weekend. If my daughter is not coming down I might do that instead, but that means I spend Thanksgiving weekend in a rathole hotel in BF California. Not so sure about that.

Buttonwillow is running a "Test Festival" which allows street cars as well just a couple of weeks later in December, and it's normally $200 (their one day fee) but instead you get both days for that price. And there are often so few cars on track that Sunday that they just run it as an open session where you can come and go on track as you please.

Steve

MattRobertson
09-30-2009, 06:39 PM
Thanks Steve! I'll keep my eyes open. Not sure what I am going to do beyond what I am signed up for:

Oct 9: Infineon
Nov 6: Infineon
Dec 18: Laguna

I am leaning towards adding Laguna day cuz I have no gas costs to get there and back, and no motel. The higher fees at Laguna are more than offset by my ability to just leave my driveway and get to the track in 15 minutes. Hell, one time I had to change my rotors. Went home, did it and got back before the drivers meeting was over. I think you were there that day.

On the other hand, I have only been to BW once this year. Won't do that with Speedventures again. So few other vendors run there...

RobAGD
09-30-2009, 07:31 PM
What happened with Speed Ventures ?


Having worked with HoD out here and my first experience with SV I can see where there maybe some on track issues :D

-R

MattRobertson
09-30-2009, 07:56 PM
Buttonwillow early in the year was loaded with ... kids ... from SoCal. If I said there were 20 off-track incidents I might be leaving out a few. Seriously. I heard on the grapevine later that the story was that the cones were put out wrong... but thats ridiculous. What it was was a bunch of guys on cold pavement who were going balls out anyway and paying zero attention to track history. It was almost always the same corners these knuckleheads went off on. And since it was muddy, you needed to dig the car out before you could tow it off. Like 20 minutes for each off track event.

So as much as I think Aaron is a good guy, his clientele under the wrong circumstances make for very different events than I want to run. I'll still do SV on Laguna or TH cuz the entry fees and the travel times keep the kids down south.

RobAGD
09-30-2009, 09:25 PM
lol, kids down south :mrgreen:

hahahaha

funny stuff dude.... you grouchy old bastard :mrgreen:

-Robert

Ron380
09-30-2009, 10:21 PM
Hey you kids! Get off my lawn! LOL!

MattRobertson
10-01-2009, 02:50 PM
HEY STEVE!

How do you go about signing up for the BW event? I see the listing on their calendar but bupkis beyond that. Not even an event description. Guess they are keeping out the riffraff with minimal chatter.

Steve Levin
10-01-2009, 04:45 PM
Matt, the test days are always a "show up and pay" deal. The track typically is much more draconian than SV is about getting crazy on track -- they make it clear it's not a race, it's not "race-like conditions" -- it's a test and they expect sanity from the drivers. And there's no timing available (i.e., it's just "Bring Your Own Beacon") so the folks deeply concerned about being the fastest guy on track that day don't bother showing up.

I love Laguna (although I still can't get past 1:44.9xx there yet) but I'm not going to focus on it for testing since there's no National race there and I am going to focus on qualifying for the National Runoffs next year.

Steve

xevilpetex
10-12-2009, 07:24 PM
Actually, drivers ON TRACK don't have to respect the blend line at all -- even in an F1 race. Drivers coming out of the pits have to respect the blend line in an F1 race and not cross over.

But on average for racing (including SCCA and NASA events) the 'blend line' isn't enforced on pit exit either (at least in the typical sprint races where there are generally not pit stops).

If anything at Thunderhill, Matt wasn't getting far enough over, IMO, leaving a good couple of feet of pavement out there a lot.

Steve

I just thought i would revive this point. This weekend at the ALMS race at Laguna seca, Jan Magnussen got penalized for not respecting pit out in the final laps of the race. He had to give back a position to Jorge Bergmeister which lead to a very exciting and wild finish.

Skip to 1:15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmP2_WyqxAY

MattRobertson
10-12-2009, 07:39 PM
hmmm. I don't know if that counts as the same thing given the specific nature of the track. On that track that is an entirely separate lane and its clearly marked as such. If he had stayed there any longer he would have had to cross a dirt berm to get back onto the track cuz that lane goes its own way off track for a bit.

Now... when that lane returns to the trackside and exits onto the track past Turn 2... *that* I think is comparable to the Thunder Hill situation and there, you can cross in without penalty.

Here's a Google closeup (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=Laguna+Seca,+Monterey,+California+93940&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=63.472213,135.263672&ie=UTF8&cd=1&geocode=FZM4LgIdkCi--A&split=0&hq=&hnear=Laguna+Seca,+Monterey,+California&ll=36.583249,-121.756829&spn=0.002003,0.004128&t=h&z=19) so you can see what I mean... the guy crossed into a lane at Turn 1 that doesn't enter the track - and separates completely from it - until it goes around Turn 2.

Also... this is the only track I know of where there is a street-level view. Drag the little man onto the track and you can do a lap. Lets see if I can link to it from about where the guy passed (http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=Laguna+Seca,+Monterey,+California+93940&sll=37.0625,-95.677068&sspn=63.472213,135.263672&ie=UTF8&cd=1&geocode=FZM4LgIdkCi--A&split=0&hq=&hnear=Laguna+Seca,+Monterey,+California&ll=36.585271,-121.756183&spn=0.002003,0.004128&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=36.585627,-121.757031&panoid=pC1-MMUyYV1dAl8Wwt2dQQ&cbp=12,199.26,,0,13.07). Note the cones in the Street Level view that clearly mark the no-crossing nature of the double line. On track days, there are always cones marking the 'wall' that exists there. In that race they painted it over solid white between the usual double lines.

xevilpetex
10-13-2009, 11:39 AM
I know the set up of Laguna fairly well, what im saying is he crossed the dividing line between pit out and the track while making a pass and got penalized for it. So clearly there are some situations where you will get spanked by race control for crossing the line. Now this doesnt apply to you at Thunder hill but making a blanket statement that "drivers ON TRACK don't have to respect the blend line at all" isnt correct.

budoboy
10-13-2009, 12:00 PM
Matt,

You have the records for fastest lap at both tracks for a LX but how many folks are actually competing with you at these tracks in LX cars? I imagine some folks will come out once just to try it out but are there any other dedicated track guys in LXs at these tracks besides you?

MattRobertson
10-13-2009, 12:07 PM
Not really, no. I'd love to see it.

Friday at Infineon, Hemi Family ran a best of 2:16. I'll be putting in for a football on that track with a 2:04. Haven't gotten around to posting up the thread/video. I ran a sub-2-minute lap and a bunch right at the 2-minute mark in the last session, but the timer was on the fritz, so no proof. Will have to wait until Spring as I seriously doubt that, when I go back in November, that the weather will even allow me to put the slicks on, let alone run well with them.

Both of those lap times in the football (actually, the new TH one and the 1:49 in the football) are respectable in any car. When I scored the recent Thunder Hill time, I was the fastest guy in the Advanced/Intermediate run group. Nobody passed me all day.

BUT it was different at Infineon Friday, where there were a *lot* of very fast, very experienced drivers and I was middle-of-the-pack.

budoboy
10-13-2009, 12:17 PM
Not really, no. I'd love to see it.

Friday at Infineon, Hemi Family ran a best of 2:16. I'll be putting in for a football on that track with a 2:04. Haven't gotten around to posting up the thread/video. I ran a sub-2-minute lap and a bunch right at the 2-minute mark in the last session, but the timer was on the fritz, so no proof. Will have to wait until Spring as I seriously doubt that, when I go back in November, that the weather will even allow me to put the slicks on, let alone run well with them.

Both of those lap times in the football (actually, the new TH one and the 1:49 in the football) are respectable in any car. When I scored the recent Thunder Hill time, I was the fastest guy in the Advanced/Intermediate run group. Nobody passed me all day.

BUT it was different at Infineon Friday, where there were a *lot* of very fast, very experienced drivers and I was middle-of-the-pack.

I'd love to come out sometime. Can you break down the expenses of things involved for me? What are some must haves to be competetive. I've got motor mods and LSD but what about recommended tires, brakes, trans/pwr steering coolers, etc. I just want to know what is involved.

Also how likely is a crash doing this?

MattRobertson
10-13-2009, 01:43 PM
I'd love to come out sometime. Can you break down the expenses of things involved for me? What are some must haves to be competetive. I've got motor mods and LSD but what about recommended tires, brakes, trans/pwr steering coolers, etc. I just want to know what is involved.

Also how likely is a crash doing this?
You know what, I think this is better served in a different thread cuz there are two different answers, and I can see the discussion going for awhile in this direction if it takes off. I'll quote your post and start a new thread in this sub forum (At The Track).

Ron380
10-13-2009, 02:48 PM
Well, you can start here, first!

http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=123923

:thumbs_u: :mrgreen:

MattRobertson
10-13-2009, 03:28 PM
New thread is up:

http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?p=2542017

Ron your thread is Ground Zero for sure :-)

MattRobertson
10-13-2009, 03:42 PM
Ron we really are covering some of the same ground in both threads and yous has a lot of info already in it. Maybe you can pick out some nuggets (I know the cost breakdowns are new) and we can close my thread down once you move in what you want?

Ron380
10-13-2009, 04:13 PM
^There's a challenge! :panic: LOL!

I'll take a look and see what I can come up with! I can probably just add in the cost lists at the end of the first post... Kinda busy tonight, but give me a day or two and I'll work on it.

I thought that thread had been stickied... any chance of that? ;)

Steve Levin
10-13-2009, 06:16 PM
I just thought i would revive this point. This weekend at the ALMS race at Laguna seca, Jan Magnussen got penalized for not respecting pit out in the final laps of the race. He had to give back a position to Jorge Bergmeister which lead to a very exciting and wild finish.

Skip to 1:15
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmP2_WyqxAY

That's a slightly different situation, and it actually IS handled differently by everyone that races at Laguna. The White painted section defines "out of bounds" and is not part of the racing surface. The reason it is paved over and not dirt is just to minimize dirt getting kicked up on track (much like the extended asphalt at Thunderhill between Turns 11 and 13 and on the outside between 14 and 15).

So going "4 off" over that painted divider (which is not a blend line) cannot be done to your advantage. Otherwise, everyone would do it as it's the shortest distance over the hill.

Steve