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View Full Version : Supercharged Charger Runs Out Of Fuel Pump



hemituner
11-14-2008, 11:06 PM
Well, I was finally able to tune the supercharged Charger we had at the dealer used car lot. Went well, driveability is FLAWLESS. Only problem ran out of fuel pump as you can see in the dyno graph. Made 575 WHP but to put that into perspective on this past WED made 487WHP with a PPP head/Cam Naturally Aspirated 6.1. The blower is killer for sure. 88 hp over a head cam combo is pretty good for a bolt on piece. I would LOVE to do this same setup with the PPP heads and cam. It is a very FUN setup to drive. The car has stock eng with long-tubes, SRT 4 inj, high flow cats and Magnaflow cat back exhaust. Just for the record I would have never let a customers car get on the edge like this. It is a dealer car so I figured it would be a good demo for the group. DON'T TRY THIS!!!!!
Enjoy
AJ (HEMITUNER)

4DRHTRD
11-14-2008, 11:08 PM
No boost a pump?

hemituner
11-14-2008, 11:11 PM
No boost a pump?

Nope Stock pump Only. Needs one though
Thanks
A.J. (HEMITUNER)

Cam
11-14-2008, 11:13 PM
Supercharged Charger Runs Out Of Fuel Pump


Say it ain't so http://www.srtconnection.com/forums/images/smilies2/mouth.gif

4DRHTRD
11-14-2008, 11:34 PM
Nope Stock pump Only. Needs one though
Thanks
A.J. (HEMITUNER)

Looks like I was right, stock FP will work fine for my tiny 6psi of boost on my car. :)

hemituner
11-14-2008, 11:41 PM
Looks like I was right, stock FP will work fine for my tiny 6psi of boost on my car. :)

This car had 6.5 lbs of boost. It drops like a rock. Now I have another project to tackle. Ill see what they want to do with it on Monday. Hopefully I get to play more.
Thanks
A.J. (HEMITUNER)

RobAGD
11-14-2008, 11:56 PM
AJ - use a 2nd pump & Basket assembly in the drivers tank. Take a look at teh fuelish thinking thread I started.

-Robert

Redfox0099
11-14-2008, 11:57 PM
Why is this a sticky...I thought it was common knowledge they would run out of fuel S/Ced.

hemituner
11-15-2008, 12:04 AM
Why is this a sticky...I thought it was common knowledge they would run out of fuel S/Ced.

????. Figured it would be interesting to illustrate how it looks on a A/F graph. Haven't seen any other graphs to illustrate. Not every one knows this is what they are in for with a SC. Some people like show and tell.
Thanks
A.J. (HEMITUNER)

MOL SRT-8
11-15-2008, 02:43 AM
whos s/c are you useing? i thought that everyone knew they need atleast a boost-a-pump. that's why they come in the vortech kit.

hemituner
11-15-2008, 08:43 AM
whos s/c are you useing? i thought that everyone knew they need at least a boost-a-pump. that's why they come in the vortech kit.

It looks like it was one of the 1st GS motorsports kits. From there it looks like it was around the block a few times with piggy backs, mods,then Arizona speed and marine upgrade, ect. The reason we got to this place is because the car was barely running with a flashing Check engine lamp. There were alot of things to fix on the car and I was told by someone who had knowledge of the car the fuel system had been modified. I knew better. When you have a bottom line and a manager who needs to present a case to justify large costs such as a fuel system upgrade on a dealer inventory car proof is always good to have. Figured it would make good conversation and I KNOW someone who doesn't know what to look for or is cruising the web for info on what is necessary for a S/C LX will be happy they found this thread. Ya know what my be STUPID to you may save someones but.
Thanks
A.J. (HEMITUNER)

Hemi31
11-15-2008, 08:45 AM
Actually it is pretty common knowledge and has been discussed pretty heavily on the forums for the last few months......read "Fuelish Thinking" like Rob said or search out others threads......this isn't new.

hemituner
11-15-2008, 08:47 AM
AJ - use a 2nd pump & Basket assembly in the drivers tank. Take a look at teh fuelish thinking thread I started.

-Robert
GREAT THREAD Robert. Ya know I could widdle up some Machined aluminum brackets to hold that 2nd pump. If it would work out I can then CNC them and make a bunch. Ill also call my friend at TYCO electronics and see if I can get the fuel pump pins in bulk so you can crimp the big wire in. PM me!!!!
Thanks
A.J.

hemituner
11-15-2008, 08:51 AM
Actually it is pretty common knowledge and has been discussed pretty heavily on the forums for the last few months......read "Fuelish Thinking" like Rob said or search out others threads......this isn't new.

Ok I get it so because someone else brought it up I shouldnt talk about it. Ive only been here for 2 months.
Thanks for the heads up. :roll:
A.J. (HEMITUNER)

Hemi31
11-15-2008, 09:00 AM
Ok I get it so because someone else brought it up I shouldnt talk about it. Ive only been here for 2 months.
Thanks for the heads up. :roll:
A.J. (HEMITUNER)No....what you shouldn't do and what you should stop doing is posting like we are all a bunch of idiots.........your sales technique is no better than Pedders"the sky is falling" routine.I think you are and can be a very good asset here....but your approach Sucks......IMO.I don't care if your here for two days or two months.......you guys all show up 4yrs later after we have been through it all and thump your chests.

hemituner
11-15-2008, 09:41 AM
No....what you shouldn't do and what you should stop doing is posting like we are all a bunch of idiots.........your sales technique is no better than Pedders"the sky is falling" routine.I think you are and can be a very good asset here....but your approach Sucks......IMO.I don't care if your here for two days or two months.......you guys all show up 4yrs later after we have been through it all and thump your chests.

Who said your an idiot?? Im not thumping my chest. I put up a dynograph of a car going lean. How is that making you out to be an idiot???? The sky is not falling.Seriously tell me your kidding. Ok Im open to IDEAS. How would YOU have worded the post??
A.J. (HEMITUNER)

4DRHTRD
11-15-2008, 10:25 AM
I'm just curious what the long tubes/cats/catback is really worth on the S/C combo.

hemituner
11-15-2008, 12:05 PM
I'm just curious what the long tubes/cats/catback is really worth on the S/C combo.

This car on a dynojet made 556WHP from the graph supplied with the car from May 2008. If I had to guess based on mods I have done, a STOCK srt 300 made 408whp, one with headers, CAI and Cat back made 430whp. This car made 575whp. So I think 30-50 would be a safe number.
Hope this helps
A.J. (HEMITUNER)

RobAGD
11-15-2008, 12:08 PM
AJ Ill hit you up later.

The fuel issue on these cars has been something we have been playing with for almot 2 years. we first saw signs of it on the GSM cars and torching the #1 from a lean part throttle not quite boost not quite vacuum issue.

The Head and cam cars run out of injector at around 400hp in the 5.7 and about 450ish in the 6.1 SRTHardware, Erik and HemiC have been messing with fuel systems for a while. Last year Chad when big time and got rid of a lot of the factory bits and did a bybass system on his 300c, Erik (Hemi31) was working on his when he sold the car to Chris (HemiC) and since we have been working around the system so ( no offence to MM, JohnParts or Nathan ) we wouldnt have to go the route they did with a fuel cell and abandoning the stock bits.

Chris has a TON of time in the fuel stuff, I am just an Idea geek with a soldering iron and a lot a free weekends :D

-Robert

hemituner
11-15-2008, 12:14 PM
AJ Ill hit you up later.

The fuel issue on these cars has been something we have been playing with for almot 2 years. we first saw signs of it on the GSM cars and torching the #1 from a lean part throttle not quite boost not quite vacuum issue.

The Head and cam cars run out of injector at around 400hp in the 5.7 and about 450ish in the 6.1 SRTHardware, Erik and HemiC have been messing with fuel systems for a while. Last year Chad when big time and got rid of a lot of the factory bits and did a bybass system on his 300c, Erik (Hemi31) was working on his when he sold the car to Chris (HemiC) and since we have been working around the system so ( no offence to MM, JohnParts or Nathan ) we wouldnt have to go the route they did with a fuel cell and abandoning the stock bits.

Chris has a TON of time in the fuel stuff, I am just an Idea geek with a soldering iron and a lot a free weekends :D

-Robert


Well IM IN. Let me know what I can do to help contribute!!!! I applaud your efforts.

Thanks
A.J. (HEMITUNER)

Redfox0099
11-15-2008, 12:40 PM
This car on a dynojet made 556WHP from the graph supplied with the car from May 2008. If I had to guess based on mods I have done, a STOCK srt 300 made 408whp, one with headers, CAI and Cat back made 430whp. This car made 575whp. So I think 30-50 would be a safe number.
Hope this helps
A.J. (HEMITUNER)


A stock SRT making 408 at the wheel...most of the stock ones I have seen dynos on made 350-375 at the wheel....

N.H. (HEMIOWNER)

hemituner
11-15-2008, 02:00 PM
A stock SRT making 408 at the wheel...most of the stock ones I have seen dynos on made 350-375 at the wheel....

N.H. (HEMIOWNER)

We have already established my dyno reads a bit high. 408/375 is about 8%. I have over 10 sheets from my dyno day that proves it. Are we done with this???
A.J. (HEMITUNER AND OWNER x3)

Jerseyboy
11-16-2008, 11:28 PM
Man, what a rough crowd. I've known AJ for quite sometime and he is very passionate about these cars. You may be taking his passion and enthusiasim for these cars the wrong way. He's not the type of guy to bang his own drum to make himself look good. He just wants to show what these cars can do and point out potential pitfalls so that others can aviod making mistakes that he has seen others make (or even made himself!). Quit giving the poor guy a hard time. This is his vendor section for God Sakes! If there is anyplace he should be able to thump his own chest (if that is indeed what he wants to do) shouldn't it be here? If you don't argree with him or his methods, or you are not interested in having an open exchange, why bother coming in here?

J

hemituner
11-16-2008, 11:56 PM
Man, what a rough crowd. I've known AJ for quite sometime and he is very passionate about these cars. You may be taking his passion and enthusiasim for these cars the wrong way. He's not the type of guy to bang his own drum to make himself look good. He just wants to show what these cars can do and point out potential pitfalls so that others can aviod making mistakes that he has seen others make (or even made himself!). Quit giving the poor guy a hard time. This is his vendor section for God Sakes! If there is anyplace he should be able to thump his own chest (if that is indeed what he wants to do) shouldn't it be here? If you don't argree with him or his methods, or you are not interested in having an open exchange, why bother coming in here?

J

Thanks J.
A.J. (HEMITUNER)

HEMI~C~
11-17-2008, 01:31 AM
GREAT THREAD Robert. Ya know I could widdle up some Machined aluminum brackets to hold that 2nd pump. If it would work out I can then CNC them and make a bunch. Ill also call my friend at TYCO electronics and see if I can get the fuel pump pins in bulk so you can crimp the big wire in. PM me!!!!
Thanks
A.J.

Thanks for the offer A.J. but I think the current position of the pump is far from ideal. I think the final and more permanent solution is going to simply be a second basket (factory or otherwise)/pump mated to the stock via one/two transfer tubes (-8an lines). That way both pumps are always submerged, which should make for longer pump life and safer fuel delivery. The rather short -8AN line/tubing should keep it all in place but if not, custom brackets would be sweet.

The pins would be helpful for those less inclined to grind on the factory one.

The factory fuel delivery is pretty damn good considering what we are throwing at it and upgrades still could be done incrementally as one progresses from wild to insane...

Step 1. Upgrade stock wiring and add MSD BAP for boosted apps (nice boost referenced voltage regulation) is a very easy initial upgrade and should be perfectly safe for those around the 575-600rwhp level. Costs about 275.00 range

Step 2. 2nd pump/basket tied into the factory lines within the driver side of the tank. Should theoretically support around 800rwhp or more but really hasn't been tested yet. Could probably be put together in the 300.00 - 350.00 range.

Step 3a. Modify factory system to support larger fuel delivery line, external filter and return line. Costing about 700.00 so far. but should support as much as I can throw at it. A couple different ways to do this.

Step 3b or 4. Fully separate fuel cell/fuel pump run in tandem with factory fuel delivery system. Costs...the sky is the limit???


If you have time to experiment, I would like to see a simple upgrade to the fuel pump wiring and see where the AFR's end up.....turning up the BAP as needed.

Thoughts?

PaCharger
11-17-2008, 09:15 AM
And - at the point you need the Fuel that Dan, Chad, Chris & Nathan require - thats about the point the tranny goes to crap....so...

Step 4. Get beefed up tranny worthy of banging gears...not slow mushy delayed slides.


BTW Chris or Rob - what PID monitors Duty cycle for the injectors?

Hemi31
11-17-2008, 10:15 AM
It's under Injector Control.......then Avg Pulse width.

Jaak
11-17-2008, 11:51 AM
Thanks for posting the plot with the A/F, it was good to see.

hemituner
11-17-2008, 12:14 PM
Thanks for posting the plot with the A/F, it was good to see.

My pleasure
Thanks
A.J. (HEMITUNER)

4DRHTRD
11-17-2008, 12:32 PM
Wouldn't it be smarter to go to
Step 2. 2nd pump/basket tied into the factory lines within the driver side of the tank. Should theoretically support around 800rwhp or more but really hasn't been tested yet. Could probably be put together in the 300.00 - 350.00 range.

and skip step 1?
Is step 1 required for step 2?

HEMI~C~
11-17-2008, 06:06 PM
Wouldn't it be smarter to go to
Step 2. 2nd pump/basket tied into the factory lines within the driver side of the tank. Should theoretically support around 800rwhp or more but really hasn't been tested yet. Could probably be put together in the 300.00 - 350.00 range.

and skip step 1?
Is step 1 required for step 2?

Depends on what power you plan on going after....... keep in mind step 1 takes about 1hr to wire up and is so easy ANYONE could do it, without ever touching gasoline. And it is reversible.

Step two is quite a bit more involved, not to be done by those that don't have a full understanding of how our fuel systems operate, costs a bit more but will result in a robust fuel system.

Pick your poison.

LouZ
11-17-2008, 07:11 PM
Depends on what power you plan on going after....... keep in mind step 1 takes about 1hr to wire up and is so easy ANYONE could do it, without ever touching gasoline. And it is reversible.

Step two is quite a bit more involved, not to be done by those that don't have a full understanding of how our fuel systems operate, costs a bit more but will result in a robust fuel system.

Pick your poison.

You got a writeup for step 1?

LouZ

HEMI~C~
11-17-2008, 09:01 PM
Hey Lou, step one was already done by Erik. It is literally, 4-6 wires depending on whether you wire a hobbs switch in or not. If you get the MSD unit and are running boost no Hobbs is necessary as its is boost referenced already.

If I get some time after putting the tranny back in, I will take some pics to show how easy the BAP is to install.....unless Erik already has that out there somewhere?

Chris

Bubba's Dragon
03-17-2009, 08:27 PM
I'm interested in fuel issues also. Does most superchargers come with some thing to resolve this issue?
Does the 392 NA need more fuel or will the stock R/T pump keep up with it, if not can I swap out the R/T fuel pump with the SRT or are they the same?
Very interesting thread.
Thanks AJ

HEMI~C~
03-17-2009, 10:20 PM
You shouldn't have any problems with the R/T pump on a N/A 392 but for what it is worth the SRT pump/basket assembly is a separate part number. I haven't taken my 5.7 tank apart yet so not sure of the differences.

351Freak
06-10-2009, 08:04 PM
oops...

posted in wrong spot...