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View Full Version : Who Cares If It Burns Down Its Fast



hemituner
11-07-2008, 12:51 AM
This is a subject I am very passionate about. When we modify our vehicles it is always a balance of cost vs net. This is a situation where economics sometimes gets in the way of good judgment. We all want our cars to go fast and we all HOPE to find an installer who cares about our vehicles as if it was their own. Or maybe your excited to get your hands dirty and who better than yourself to care for your vehicle as no other installer would. Think of all the time spent reading, research, forums, ebay, shop around, talk to 100 different people, just to get your parts. Here is the 50k question. How much time do you spend after you get your parts deciding on the installer or install process if you plan on taking it on yourself ???? Have you thought wow my mods can hurt me or my family???

The vehicle in these pictures had a header install. Unfortunately massive amounts of additional heat had been created in the engine bay. If the wiring is not bad enough I would like you all to pay attention to the BLOB of Line you see. That line is the FUEL VAPOR LINE!!!!. That line directs fuel VAPOR to the purge solenoid so it can me redirected into the intake manifold to be burned. IMAGINE this line melted wide open directing LOW FLASHPOINT RAW FUEL VAPOR against that nice cherry red header. Installing aftermarket components requires a certain level awareness to how other systems in the car may be affected. Saving money is important and lucky for all of us we have a great resource in these forums. There are NO STUPID QUESTIONS. I would much rather someone ask me advice even if they don't choose me to do their work, rather than see someone get into trouble and loose their car or a life. Please beware and don't bite off more than you can chew. This is all supposed to be fun.
Thanks
A.J. (HEMITUNER)


http://gallery.me.com/jyacko/100174/melt3/web.jpg

http://gallery.me.com/jyacko/100174/melt6/web.jpg

http://gallery.me.com/jyacko/100174/melt5/web.jpg

http://gallery.me.com/jyacko/100174/wiremelt2/web.jpg

http://gallery.me.com/jyacko/100174/wiremelt/web.jpg

http://gallery.me.com/jyacko/100174/melt4/web.jpg

http://gallery.me.com/jyacko/100174/purgelinemelt/web.jpg

USCG Charger
11-07-2008, 12:59 AM
I'm a shade tree mechanic at best.... but I'd rather do all my own work than let someone who I really dont know touch my car. These cars are very self explanatory when it comes to bolt ons.. If you can't figure out how to not let anything touch a LT header then your prolly not gonna have the brains to find a decent mechanic either.

hemituner
11-07-2008, 01:06 AM
I'm a shade tree mechanic at best.... but I'd rather do all my own work than let someone who I really dont know touch my car. These cars are very self explanatory when it comes to bolt ons.. If you can't figure out how to not let anything touch a LT header then your prolly not gonna have the brains to find a decent mechanic either.

Not One component here came in DIRECT contact with the header. This is all RADIENT heat. And BTW they are short tubes.
Thanks
A.J. (HEMITUNER)

PaCharger
11-07-2008, 01:06 AM
Hmm, you seem to want to challenge the tuning world, the ability to figure out how to install, etc...


I won't doubt for a moment your intentions are good and true...but coming off as a know it all and thinking we're all a bunch of idiots...isn't flying well for me.

But hey...I'm honest too...

USCG Charger
11-07-2008, 01:12 AM
Not One component here came in DIRECT contact with the header. This is all RADIENT heat. And BTW they are short tubes.
Thanks
A.J. (HEMITUNER)


OK so what would u have done different if u had did the install?

hemituner
11-07-2008, 01:15 AM
Im not challenging anyone. What is the problem here???? I think Im pretty sincere. This is a Serious situation. And for the record this customer is a very nice person and far from an idiot. I think this group is full of talented nice people. Im trying to help.
A.J. (HEMITUNER)

FactoryD
11-07-2008, 01:18 AM
The Lord knows I screw things up on my car, but he also wants you to share WTF happened here.

USCG Charger
11-07-2008, 01:19 AM
Im not challenging anyone. What is the problem here???? I think Im pretty sincere. This is a Serious situation.
A.J. (HEMITUNER)


I agree ^^^ that's why I'm asking what u would have done different? HOw would u have known the wires would melt if they weren't touching the headers?

hemituner
11-07-2008, 01:24 AM
OK so what would u have done different if u had did the install?

When the parts arrive on Tuesday and I complete the repairs I will take pictures for everyone.
Thanks
A.J. (HEMITUNER)

hemituner
11-07-2008, 01:35 AM
I agree ^^^ that's why I'm asking what u would have done different? HOw would u have known the wires would melt if they weren't touching the headers?


This scenario is very common. I have seen this happen on many Vipers. You also get a rude awakening in the summer when a customer brings one in thats hot off the road and you open the hood and get heat blasted. When you do work on many of these a day you get a feel for things. So when you open the hood and get blasted with 50 deg or so more heat than the one 15 min ago it makes you want to poke around to see why. I'm really not being a smarty here.
Thanks
A.J. (HEMITUNER)

USCG Charger
11-07-2008, 01:37 AM
No worries.. I'm just learning as I go....

hemituner
11-07-2008, 02:06 AM
No worries.. I'm just learning as I go....


And all I am trying to do is help by adding in site based on my experiences. I don't trash anyone, I don't know it all, and I am very serious about respect and truth. You may hate me now for whatever reason, but I won't lie or sugarcoat things to sell a line of BULL. The dealer is my full time job ,I don't make a living tuning; I tune because I really enjoy the challenge. I have over 13 years with these products. I offer a place to bring your modded car without fear of someone giving you a hard time, and I'm an open book when it comes to questions about this stuff. I'm not just some newbie trying to dupe any of you . I love these cars, and am trying to offer exceptional service. Believe it or not its possible.
Thanks
A.J. (HEMITUNER)

aries4life
11-07-2008, 08:28 AM
I'll be one to thank you for a heads up! :thumbs_u:

I'm curious about the cause(s) for this.

Hemi31
11-07-2008, 09:40 AM
Interested to hear how this was radiant heat since surrounding areas look untouched.....and if the header got that hot it would seem to suggest the EGT' s were out of control as well.Seen a hundred cars with shorties.....never seen the harness cook unless the clips holding the harness to the valve cover were broken.

hemituner
11-07-2008, 10:05 AM
Interested to hear how this was radiant heat since surrounding areas look untouched.....and if the header got that hot it would seem to suggest the EGT' s were out of control as well.Seen a hundred cars with shorties.....never seen the harness cook unless the clips holding the harness to the valve cover were broken.

Look at the one clip. It was behind the heat sheild and still melted. The Alternator wire is firmly attached to the V/C studs and the insulation is melted. The clips are melted too but still attached. The starter wiring is melted at the starter terminals. Clearly they didn't touch the header. You have done worlds of work on these cars. The starter connection point pretty far from the shorty header, would you not agree.
Thanks
A.J.

NYC_SRT8
11-07-2008, 10:13 AM
Thanks for the heads up AJ. I'm definitely happy us in the nyc area have a GearHead like yourself working in a chrysler dealership service department.:thumbs_u:

hemituner
11-07-2008, 10:21 AM
Whats the problem here???? Do the pictures not tell a tale here. You are all not being fair here. Maybe you can give me a shot instead of trying to discredit what I am saying or doing. I don't see any of you stopping by to talk to me in person. Many of you that are breaking my chops are close enough to do so. Why not try that before you insinuate im an idiot.
That would be new wouldn't it??? I don't bite. Man this is a shame.
Thanks
A.J. (HEMITUNER)

Hemi31
11-07-2008, 10:22 AM
I see where your talking but I believe theres more going on than just radiant heat.Like I said before if radiant heat did that the EGT's must have been insane and headers cherry red.I wonder if there wasn't something that got caught on the header making open flame.

Hemi31
11-07-2008, 10:24 AM
Whats the problem here???? Do the pictures not tell a tale here. You are all not being fair here. Maybe you can give me a shot instead of trying to discredit what I am saying or doing. I don't see any of you stopping by to talk to me in person. Many of you that are breaking my chops are close enough to do so. Why not try that before you insinuate im an idiot.
That would be new wouldn't it??? I don't bite. Man this is a shame.
Thanks
A.J. (HEMITUNER)Dude relax......no ones trying to discredit you....but you come post these pictures saying that just radiant heat did it with no reasons why when thousands are on the same way with no issues........we just want to know WHY....tell us WHY......that way if it is an issue it can be avoided.

Super T
11-07-2008, 10:28 AM
Personally, wouldn't consider longtubes w/o ceramic coating to try to keep the heat in. Shorties though, I'm actually really shocked to see this kind of damage. I know how powerful radiant heat can be, that's why we try to design it in to a lot of our projects here, but damn that's extreme!

hemituner
11-07-2008, 11:13 AM
Personally, wouldn't consider longtubes w/o ceramic coating to try to keep the heat in. Shorties though, I'm actually really shocked to see this kind of damage. I know how powerful radiant heat can be, that's why we try to design it in to a lot of our projects here, but damn that's extreme!


This is all good. To be honest I am really suprised this hasen't been more of an issue. I can tell you I can make the shorties glow just by reving it up in neutral for about 30 sec at 3k. The more "SPIRITED" the driver in their habits the worse this will get. Hemi 31 you are on point in saying that this probably will not happen in NORMAL driving and cruise conditions. I look at this and have a vision of someone driving in say 3rd gear high rpm and load playing around, doing compression decels, ect... The whole point is that this can and will happen. Say you have this setup and you really never drive agressive or fast. Now you give your child or friend the car and it is used more "spirited" which results in a fire. Point here is when the factory designs things they do a really good job in planning for situations OUTSIDE the scope of "normal" daily driver operation. In my eyes it is important to TRY to take the same approach. Look at the mess we had here in N.Y. with State Troopers and local police parking their cruisers on dry grass in the summer with the A/C on. Many cars burnt to the ground because the radient heat of the Cat converters lit the grass on fire. Every Year I go to PRI and look for new products to include in my daily operations. Believe it or not GOOD heat sheilding is always on the top of my list.
Thanks
A.J. (HEMITUNER)

hemituner
11-07-2008, 11:15 AM
Dude relax......no ones trying to discredit you....but you come post these pictures saying that just radiant heat did it with no reasons why when thousands are on the same way with no issues........we just want to know WHY....tell us WHY......that way if it is an issue it can be avoided.

Check the previous post. This is my opinion why this car and possibly not others. Thanks for your input.:thumbs_u:
Thanks again
A.J. (HEMITUNER)

Redfox0099
11-07-2008, 11:25 AM
The only time I have seen bad cherry red heat is on my '05 when the flange got loose and warped....we had it on a lift and revved it up to see where it was leaking and one pipe got REALLY hot since it was leaking....was the while side red or just one pipe?

392Stu
11-07-2008, 11:39 AM
I see where your talking but I believe theres more going on than just radiant heat.Like I said before if radiant heat did that the EGT's must have been insane and headers cherry red.I wonder if there wasn't something that got caught on the header making open flame.

Likely a decent amount of convected heat too. Particularly if it's in a location where there is not allot of air flow.

hemituner
11-07-2008, 11:59 AM
Likely a decent amount of convected heat too. Particularly if it's in a location where these not allot of air flow.

Had A viper customer that flat out refused to use 4th, 5th, and 6th on the highway. Had no problem doing 90 in 3rd. Always complained it ran hot. Wouldn't listen. Said he wanted headers. I wouldn't do them so he found someone who would. Started melting everything. Refused to spend money on heat wrap, thermal coatings ect.. Told me I was full of it. Well I just saw him last week. He purchased an 08, said he doesn't know what happened. He stopped at the toll booth and it just caught fire. He said NO REASON just went up. I will bet if you go out in the dark and rev your eng in neutral 3k for 20-30 sec your headers glow. I have not seen a pair yet in the dark that don't glow cherry.. Look at the you tube videos of any variety of engine on a dyno. Usually they flip the lights off in the cell and they glow quite a while. Im interested in hearing your feedback.
Thanks
A.J. (HEMITUNER)

lafrad
11-07-2008, 12:05 PM
I would also think there is something else up... a leaky header gasket or something.

I have a set of uncoated Kooks longtubes on my car that I have used and abused while going through the tuning procedure... being my own car I have been VERY aggressive with the tunes and know very well that I have gotten them WAY too hot... cherry red, see the glow under the car at the track type hot... and... I am VERY familiar with all the wires around them right now :doh: there is no heat related damage or wear anywhere on the car itself.

but, surprisingly, the hottest part of the whole thing is almost always the collector... the primaries are not nearly as... heat-treated... as the collector area.... maybe this particular set of shorties just puts that hot point too close to everything in the car?

Whats the solution? Couple layers of header wrap? Heat shields?

Hemi31
11-07-2008, 12:07 PM
I drive as spirited as they come and never,ever saw that.Let me ask this........were the belly pans on?

charginscott
11-07-2008, 12:11 PM
So does wrapping them in heat tape or coating the headers help with the rediant heat ? I know this is supposed to keep the heat in the exhaust system to help scavange the cumbustion chambers for a cleaner burn. But will this help?

I was contemplating doing shortys but I am a spirited driver. Now I am not so sure.

hemituner
11-07-2008, 12:20 PM
Don't know how long they have been gone. Just replaced all of them. There is no way a set of headers runs as cool on the outside of the assembly as the factory manifolds with the heat sheilds they have on them. My solution for this car is to wrap all the wiring in heat sleeve as well as any rubber or plastic lines. A stainless tube with no heat sheild throws off massive amounts of heat.
Thanks
A.J. (HEMITUNER)

CoolVanilla
11-07-2008, 12:22 PM
I drive as spirited as they come and never,ever saw that.And I quite literally had well over 200 WOT dyno pulls and a few dozen 1/4 runs on my shorties before they came off. Never saw anything like this. Something else is up, I'd bet.

PaCharger
11-07-2008, 12:25 PM
hmmm, yup cv....i only have 12 months of Spirited driving on my shorties, 150 passes on the strip and 30 dyno pulls on my shorties as well.

CoolVanilla
11-07-2008, 12:29 PM
Just occured to me too... MattRobertson is probably head and shoulders above us all in terms of hard core driving. I mean like 4-5k rpms sustained for minutes, a dozen times a month (he's the king of the road course around here. Nobody pushes their LX harder than Matt). And he's been on the dyno an awful lot too, all the while running JBA shorties. No such problems.

hemituner
11-07-2008, 12:31 PM
I would also think there is something else up... a leaky header gasket or something.

I have a set of uncoated Kooks longtubes on my car that I have used and abused while going through the tuning procedure... being my own car I have been VERY aggressive with the tunes and know very well that I have gotten them WAY too hot... cherry red, see the glow under the car at the track type hot... and... I am VERY familiar with all the wires around them right now :doh: there is no heat related damage or wear anywhere on the car itself.

but, surprisingly, the hottest part of the whole thing is almost always the collector... the primaries are not nearly as... heat-treated... as the collector area.... maybe this particular set of shorties just puts that hot point too close to everything in the car?

Whats the solution? Couple layers of header wrap? Heat shields?

I think the key here is LONG TERM exposure. Ill bet driving around at better than 3k in 90 or 100 degree heat for a few hours and you were running it hard things would begin to smell funny. You cannot argue the fact that headers increase engine compartment heat significantly. And it gets worse the harder and longer you push it. Ok you all win im going to hopefully let this die. I wasn't trying to create a debate. Headers and engine compartment heat from them has been an issue since the 60's. The pictures don't lie. Its a stock engine with a stock tune that runs great. I surrender. I learned my lesson,I Have no clue, I Suck really bad , you win. Ill go back to my hole now. :)
:blam:
A.J.

hemituner
11-07-2008, 12:43 PM
Seriously all. Its obvious I am odd man out here. I respect your positions.
A.J.

hemituner
11-07-2008, 02:31 PM
I would also think there is something else up... a leaky header gasket or something.

I have a set of uncoated Kooks longtubes on my car that I have used and abused while going through the tuning procedure... being my own car I have been VERY aggressive with the tunes and know very well that I have gotten them WAY too hot... cherry red, see the glow under the car at the track type hot... and... I am VERY familiar with all the wires around them right now :doh: there is no heat related damage or wear anywhere on the car itself.

but, surprisingly, the hottest part of the whole thing is almost always the collector... the primaries are not nearly as... heat-treated... as the collector area.... maybe this particular set of shorties just puts that hot point too close to everything in the car?

Whats the solution? Couple layers of header wrap? Heat shields?


In My opinion the solution is to provide an added barrier by properly insulating and wraping the wiring and lines in a good thermal barrier sleeve. I will FOR SURE post the pics after I have completed the repair.
Thanks
A.J.

hemituner
11-07-2008, 02:45 PM
In closing I realize you all have your own opinions as I have mine. I am locking this because further debate I feel is going to further take this down a road better left untraveled. Thanks to everyone for the feedback and I am curious that more of you have not seen this concern. I spoke about it because I have seen this many times. Not many of THESE cars but on other models. I am not a preacher, not worldly, just care about a job well done. Possibly I am overthinking it, is that a bad thing??? I will post pictures of the finished job.
Sincere thanks for the input.
A.J. (HEMITUNER)