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Ron380
07-24-2008, 09:19 PM
This thread is an attempt to round up all the good information to help you prepare your LX car for running a Road Course! Many THANKS to MattRobertson, X E Ryder, TTMR and the other great forum members who helped me round up all this information, while I'm preparing myself and my car for my first trip to the Mid Ohio Sports Car Course! :thumbs_u:

Update: Even though I've traded the Charger for something faster, this thread still applies to all LX vehicles, and just about everyone else who is getting started in the addictive sport of amateur road-course track days!

(New information still gets added here, so check back for updates, edits and re-takes!)

*Check with the track you will be going to for their regulations concerning Driver Attire and Safety Equipment! Most tracks require at least: full shoes (no sandals or open-toed shoes), long pants, and a Snell SA2005 Approved helmet (minimum). Long sleeves, gloves and fire-retardant gear is highly recommended, especially when you start becoming competitive with your lap times!
**Some tracks specify an SA2005-rated helmet!! An M2005 helmet may not be allowed!!

Brakes:


Few realize that adding go-fast goodies should also result in selecting stop-just-as-fast goodies...

Do NOT leave stock brake pads on for a track day, they can't take the heat and will turn to goo, and your rotors will look like you spread peanut butter and jelly on em afterwards! :doh:

Use brake pads rated for higher temperatures, but even then be aware of the brakes fading. When they do, Do Not just keep pressing harder on the pedal! Instead do a slow, full lap without using the brakes, to cool them off, and either pull in, or see if your pedal is back. This should allow everything to cool and you will not ruin them, hopefully.

*You can run some track pads on the street for everyday use, but be advised they are a little messy, and if you drive mellow they will start squealing - a couple hard, hot stops will usually bring em back in line though. The squealing comes from being used at too low a temp for awhile and they get a sort of buildup going.*

It takes a little practice learning when your brakes are "going away" and all the little things like, when you pull in, do not use your brakes if you can-- shift to neutral and coast to a stop in the pits if possible. Do not set the parking brake, and after a few minutes, push your car 18 inches or so to get the part of the rotor out of the caliper area to avoid hotspots on the rotor. Do this a few times.

You can use the Wilwood BSL6 calipers and SRT rotors. The SRT rotors are the "El Cheapo" alternative that give you big brake kit performance (14.2") with the peasant price ($65 or so each). THEN you can get some serious pads on.
You want the Wilwood H pads, and you put them on at the track. They will trash your rotors otherwise but there is nothing like them for hi temp performance. I have a set that have lasted two full days at Laguna Seca and are good for one more. And they work no matter what.

The W6A Wilwood caliper is far better than the BSL6 but I don't think it fits under an 18" wheel...?
Down the road, get stainless lines and you will get a nice pedal feel out of it.

I used the Wilwood 570 fluid in 2 very different cars, and it worked great for my driving style. ** Here is a fantastic chart from our very own MattRobertson with all the stats you'll ever need for brake fluid! Be sure to read the information below the chart, to help make sense of it all. :thumbs_u:
http://www.lelandwest.com/brake-fluid-comparison-chart.cfm

That's the poor man's brake upgrade: fluid, pads and lines. :thumbs_u:

When you get in after a track session, NEVER just stop the car and park! Right when you get off-track, do the 'paddock parade' or something like it: Drive around slowly (at idle is fine) staying off the brakes and the accelerator. Do this for about 3-5 minutes. Longer is better. What it does is let the rotors cool off and keeps the pads from hot-spotting the rotors when they are worst-case hot. It might help cool the motor too since you will have fluids circulating with no load.
You will probably see many other drivers doing the same thing themselves. Just remember your car is bigger and heavier and you are generating more heat, so if they go in and park you stay out for a minute or three longer.

Cooling:

The Ultimate LX Cooling Guide: FRANKENCOOLER!!
http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=56863 :cool:

Note: Some of the steps below are specific to the 5.7 and 6.1L V8's, and are not applicable to the V6 engines.
(But we might figure a way to work around that, anyway...)

More Cooling Info. Here:
http://www.lxforums.com/board/showpost.php?p=2089222&postcount=27

1. I'd do the p/s cooler no matter what. Its cheap and the problem is known and could be catastrophic. * See below for JoelVan's fix!
2. If you haven't done a tstat, put in a 180.
3. Read your tranny temps at the track (Aeroforce Interceptor Guage or DashHawk can display temps, unless the EVIC reads it). If they go high, get the franken-tranny cooler. Autocross will probably not be bad enough to show a problem. No matter what put the stock cooler and the aux-cooler in series with the aux in first position.
4. Do the Mopar oil cooler. Its like $150. Without a gauge this is a bit of a crap shoot but for $150 its tough to beat. (Does not fit the 3.5L engine)
5. Monitor your water temps. Are they too high now that you are dumping heat into the motor thru the oil cooler? Look at Severe Duty II radiator to fix that. Its a big bump up in capacity. Before you go to the Maximum Duty you need to really, really want it and need it and the SevereII is probably fine.
6. If the oil temp. is still too high (I'd put in a gauge first) add in the frankencooler.
All 6 steps above are way extreme and a lot of money but once you are done you are looking at 190-degree temps across the board, pretty much. I would think most folks who hammer their car would be fine after Step 4 and an immediate oil change after a full on track day (an Autocross is no biggie).

JoelVan's Power Steering Mod:

The PS pump on the LX cars takes a beating... and frequently loses. It has been found that high-rpm + high cornering load = blown PS pump. :(
(I blew one in my '07 SXT, too, so it's not just the V8 guys!)
This addition from JoelVan helps to alleviate the pressure experienced by the pump by relocating the pulley, and changing to a larger size. It will require a new belt, about 2" longer than the standard belt.
http://www.lxforums.com/board/f252/power-steering-pump-fix-roadracers-whos-interested-335350/



Road Course Wheel Suggestions:

http://www.lxforums.com/board/f252/road-course-wheel-suggestions-344472/
Thanks to bobsmyuncle!

Tires:

Newly expanded tire section: Not to confuse anyone, but here's some of the tires that have been tried and used at various times by various people! Some are Race-Only, others are "trackable" street tires- for those who only run a track event occasionally, and don't drive like MattR! LOL As we gather more info. on tires, I'll try to get it listed here. Listed here are some examples of tire sizes and pressures used. The effectiveness of tire pressure VARIES according to temperature and condition of the track AND the tires! What works one day, may not work the next... even as one day goes by, you may need to adjust the pressures!

Also- if you get a dedicated set of Track Tires/Wheels, you should consider upgrading your stock (cheap) Lug Nuts to something better:
http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=150739

Hoosier A6
BFG G-Force R1
Bridgestone RE-050A Pole Position
(MattR- 255/35/20 with 36 psi cold on a 60 degree day, with hot pressure having a 44 psi target.)** See Note from Willi below. **
Nitto Invo
Toyo Proxes 4
Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar
Goodyear Eagle F1 GS-D3
Vredestein Ultrac Sessanta
(xevilpetex review in the rain:http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=171800 )
Yokohama Parada Spec-X
(Ron380 on SXT/AWD Charger. 255/45/20 Wear is good, traction "okay" at Mid Ohio. 45psi in all 4.)
*More tire-tests to follow in 2009!*

For 20" rims, 255/35/20 tires seem to be the best size so far for our cars.
For 18" rims, 245/40/18 has worked well for some.

*I will be testing Sumitomo HTR Z3, 245/45/18's in '09 on my stock rims! More to follow...
** Update: I ran the HTR Z3's at two road course events (NJMP- Lightning and Mid Ohio), as well as a 2-day EVO School (autocross). With the smaller diameter and stiff sidewalls, these tires handled very well on my AWD Charger! They grip well, and are predictable and easy to work with. They do not make much noise when they're nearing or passing the traction threashold, it's more of a "feel" for the car starting to get loose. Combined with my suspension upgrade, the car handled many times better than it did before! Our first session at Mid Ohio was on a wet track, too, and they handled well in the wet, also, considering the slower speeds we were going due to the rain.

**Has anyone else tried different width tires of the same brand, and noticed any particular (or "peculiar") differences with regard to wear, traction, etc. ?? We'll need to keep an eye out for this!

"Basic rule here, more pressure = better steering response, the car will be crisper as it changes direction as the tire deflects less as you turn. Less pressure = more overall traction as more tire is on the ground. Too high pressure = progressively less controllable! All you need to do is find the happy median!"

One problem we are going to have is sidewalls. We have too much weight flying around for our sidewalls to hold up. Watch that. Especially since you will be sticking and thus dishing out more lateral g forces. Some folks are running 50 psi in the front, 40-45 psi in the rear.

One Engineer for Yokohama has stated that, "UTQG is a better measure of lateral stickiness than traction rating, as traction rating is not a real-world measure but rather is a measure of lateral wet-road braking capability. A low UTQG tire is stickier, but will wear out faster."


Matt Robertson has recommended the Bridgestone Potenza RE050A Pole Position that had rating of 140.

I ordered the tires from Tire Rack which specified the 140 rating and the 280 showed up at my door WTF?

I spent about 30 minutes on the phone with the Bridgestone engineer and......

The rating on the tire is now 280 but is the EXACT compound and everything else as the 140 tires!!!!!

Just thought you all might like to know

And I went with the 275/30/20 XL :thumbs_u:


The Official Lap Timer Thread!
http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=217699

Where To Mount a Lap Timer in an LX Car!
http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?p=2183177


Fire Suppression System:

Highly recommended for anyone who's getting serious with Road Course, Track Days and serious Power-Adding on their drag-racers! I've been getting more interested in these kits and will be finding out more information about them. Here is one example:
http://www.paragon-products.com/product_p/essfire-2.3-liter-kit.htm
Considering what we've paid for other mods, and the fact that a system like this could save your life, I think the price is not bad at all! It's also installed in the car, so you can't "forget it at home", either. I'm not up to this point yet myself, but here is some information for those who are running with the big-boys!

More Road Course Info:

http://www.chargerforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=99675

MVP Track Schedule:
http://www.chargerforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=94848

What Should I Pack For A Track Day?
http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=160545

Summary:

Bear in mind that these are wide, heavy cars, and it will take a lot of work to run with the little, fast cars on an open road course. If you're just going to run a Track Day once in a while for fun, at the least upgrade your Brake Pads, use Synthetic Motor Oil, and change your oil, power-steering fluid and possibly Transmission Fluid soon after the day at the track!

Here's what it looks like when it all comes together! http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=143370

Enjoy, Be Safe and Have Fun! :pepper: :racing: Turn that wheel!! :mrgreen:

MattRobertson
07-25-2008, 12:24 AM
Things I noticed:

Attire: You have the basics right, but the attire you mention has to be all natural fibers. Shirts, pants, socks, panties. Shoes must be flame retardant or natural leather. Reason being that if the car burns this stuff will melt onto you.
:shock:
One more reason to buy the flame retardant stuff as soon as you can afford to.

I had the chance to sit down with reps from Pirelli, Conti, Yoko and Bridgestone. I grilled them on our LX situation and asked them what we can do. I discussed my own situation in technical detail and asked for advice. Bottom line:

Do not expect any help on 20's regardless of the fact that the new Nissan rocketship has 20" wheels. Its not going to get supported any time soon despite hopes that it was going to break open the door for 20" track rubber (i.e. treadwear 50 R compound rubber).

The weights of our cars require XL sidewalls. That means our high traction rubber is still going to be a really, really short list.

The weights of our cars don't really allow 45-series sidewalls if we expect to stick. The 35-series stuff I started using is the best idea.

Bridgestone RE-050A Pole Positions in 255-35-20 are probably our best bet. The 245-35-20's exhibited torque cracking internally (I pulled the tires off and looked) and thats scary, while the 255's didn't do that. Next best experiment is use the 255's on the front and see what happens.

I was running 40 psi on the front. Thats a lot. But based on nasty scrubbing on the outside sidewall edges, and the visual evidence from track photos, 40 psi is the MINIMUM psi for the fronts. Next experiment is to go UP to 45 and see if they still stick while the increased psi helps hold up the sidewalls. This is true for 20" tires. Nobody has experimented much on any other size. Worth noting though is that the SRT Experience run by Dodge uses 255/35/20's on all the SRT cars, so I think I have this figured right.


Great post!

TTMR
07-25-2008, 12:36 AM
Looks good so far there Ron!

I will add a note on the tires, I'm the one running the BFG slicks, and yeah they stick, but I will be going wider on the next set. I have found that 47psi is the MINIMUM that I can run in the fronts. 36psi seems to work very well for the rears. Now if you are running on a track and not just in a parking lot, ala SCCA, then the fronts need to go up to 50 and my AWD felt most balanced with 40 in the rear.

So how do you find the proper tire pressure? This is what has worked well for me:
1 Start too high, it will be easier to work the pressure down than up
2 Many ultra high performance and competition tires have guides on the side wall, these will be small triangles, you want the wear patch on the tire to go to, but not over that mark.
3 Drive the car and note the wear on the tire, if it's a really good tire you will be able to see wear very quickly
4 Drop the tire pressures in small increments until the wear just hits the mark.

What can you do if you don't have those marks on your tire? Simply get some chalk and put a few, 3 works well, marks from the tread up onto the side wall. After you run look and see where the chalk line ends, most cases you will be looking for some where in the neighborhood of 1/16-1/8 inch of chalk worn off the side wall.

Basic rule here, more pressure better steering response, the car will be crisper as it changes direction as the tire deflects less as you turn. Less pressure more overall traction as more tire is on the ground. All you need to do is find the happy median!

Frozen_
07-25-2008, 12:47 AM
quick question about the tires.

Matt, i thought you were running General UMP Axclaims now? Or did you go back to the bridgestones? And is the 40-45psi cold? or hot?

Cam
07-25-2008, 01:23 AM
Here's my $.02



http://wwwdelivery.superstock.com/WI/223/1612/PreviewComp/SuperStock_1612R-21834.jpg

Frozen_
07-25-2008, 01:35 AM
Another quick question.

matt why did you decided to run 20's? there alot more 18in rubber available

MattRobertson
07-25-2008, 01:29 PM
Matt, i thought you were running ...I was going to first try the Bridgestones, which I did and they worked incredibly well. They were also dam expensive. I was going to TRY the General Exclaim UHP because the damn things were so cheap. $111 per tire vs about $260 (!). But even though they have AA traction they also have 380 treadwear. Is that going to be good or bad? Crapshoot. I'd have to buy a set. And I already have two sets of street tires (I would LOVE to sell my garaged RSA's cheap. Anybody?). I have also been told that they have a rep for their sidewalls not being as stiff, and sidewalls are where its at it seems. And my recent awesome times are on the Bridgestones... so I am opting, for now, to not experiment further and sticking to the B's. I need two more tires for my next track day (the fronts are worn at the sidewalls a bit too much for my liking, but they're maybe 60% on the rest of the tread) and I am retiring the current two for eventual street use, which they would be fine for. Since I am planning on putting my track tires out to pasture as street tires, I may never buy street tires again.

Someone should try the Exclaim UHP's! It may be me but not anytime soon.


And is the 40-45psi cold? or hot?I'm doing it cold (!). If I start playing with pressures on track then of course it'll be warmer and never fully cold. Pressures on race day are sort of an art to figure out properly. The whole Paddock Parade thing totally goes out the window when you are experimenting with tire pressures.


why did you decided to run 20's? there alot more 18in rubber available
I could tell you I am trying to keep my options open for a future switch up to a W6a caliper, but the reality is thats just the way it worked out. I got a great deal on my first set of track wheels, which were SRT wheels. When I polished and powdercoated them so they could be my street wheels, that meant my forged lightweight chrome 20's could be my track tires... but then I cracked one and I needed new track wheels. I got an unbeatable deal on another set of SRT wheels (Thanks again to Cam and Ozzie!) and now I have totally interchangeable rubber and wheels. So as you can see above, when my track tires wear to the point where I am not comfy with them on track I can put them to street use instead of out to the city dump.

Ron380
07-25-2008, 02:00 PM
Thanks for all the extra input guys! :thumbs_u:



Someone should try the Exclaim UHP's! It may be me but not anytime soon.


Hmmmmm.... I'll have to keep that in mind for my 18" rims. :wink:

I was also noticing on those General's, that some tire sizes are rated at XL load rating, and some are not... Definitely want to get the XL-rated size!

9/08: I just noticed on TireRack that the General Exclaim UHP are now only "A" Traction-rated, and are also more expensive than they used to be... ah well, I'll probably try something else next year that IS "AA" Traction-rated!

Todd TCE
07-26-2008, 11:19 AM
The W6A Wilwood caliper is far better than the BSL6 but I don't think it fits under an 18" wheel...?

The W6a will fit under an 18" wheel. But it will vary by spoke design not by diameter. With a body overhang of .420" more than the BSL6r caliper it remains quite a bit wider.

Currently the W6a is fit for the 14" TCE kit and has shown to work on the SRT rotors also with some centering changes. That may also effect the caliper to spoke. I'm not sure which set up moves the caliper outward more; mine or the SRT stuff. Q for one of the guys there.

The W6a set up would use Poly B pads over H compound due to availability.

*Good word on the importance of cool down time.:thumbs_u:

RobAGD
07-26-2008, 01:54 PM
I would like to point out that the pads would be more inline with what kind of track your running and how often your going to track that car.

I ran stock RT bits at the Fontana Track day at the 07 Spring Fling, I did experance fade ( well I would say braking failure as in press on peddle and nothing happens Click on the tire wall link in my sig) but 2 easy laps and everything was fine. The Stock pads held up well, but I was rather religious on my cool down laps before parking the car. Also when I got home I flushed the Brakes with all new fluid.

Now if I were going to track the car on a more regular basis I would run a differnt pad combo depending on what is avaiable for the RT's. I now have the SRT brembos and a few extra sets of pads, and I think I would run the Factory pads on track days as I think they are up to the task ( I think that the dusting and squealing issues are from a very aggressive pad not being heated enough to get into its working temp range )

I would maybe run a differnt pad if there were a few more racing based compunds avaiable for track days and I was doing more than 1 track day a year.

Just some thoughts

-Robert

Ron380
07-26-2008, 02:23 PM
I ran stock RT bits at the Fontana Track day at the 07 Spring Fling, I did experance fade ( well I would say braking failure as in press on peddle and nothing happens Click on the tire wall link in my sig) but 2 easy laps and everything was fine.
-Robert

Thanks Robert! FYI: Your Tire Wall video isn't available anymore... :doh:

DanRealtor
07-26-2008, 03:46 PM
GY F1 "Supercar" tires 245/45/20 & 255/45/20, started 35 cold, they heated up into the 40's & STUCK. Left front outer edge obliterated. $320GY F1 "Supercar" tires started 40 psi cold, good performance, Obliterated front tires. Big ChunksToyo Proxes 4's 255/45/20's on all 4, great traction, pushed up to the wall at 149, four wheel drift really, kinda unsettling the first time. Same on the ap at 35 cold, in the 40's at speed. All tires survived.Toyo Proxes 245/45/20 up front & 275/40/20 in back, faster lap times, hot sticky tires, only looped twice (not the tires fault). Same air pressure, no dead tires, just some interestig wear patterns.I'll likely try the BFG's next time based on MattR's comments.Thanks for the tire info Matt.

RobAGD
07-26-2008, 03:55 PM
Ron, make sure your firewall/filers are not blocking tinyurl.com

Here is my YouTube page - http://uk.youtube.com/user/GDAboR

give that a try as well.

Dan I saw some scrub as well on the F1's at fontana, but you were pushing the car a bit harder than I was ( as well as having better brakes and more power ) but the F1's held up very well imho.

-R

Steve Levin
07-28-2008, 03:19 PM
I'm slightly contrarian as far as the SRT-8 owners go. I think the stock setup with the "Supercar" three season tires will work well for track days unless you really want to puh the outer limits. I did find that going to 40psi worked best, though.

To me the weakest link in the cars is oil temps. It's trivial -- even in a few minutes of spirited street driing on a mountain road -- to get the oil temps close to 300. I installed the oil cooler from the police package (a true Mopar unit, so it shouldn't have any impact on warranty), and while it's not Frankencooler good, it keeps the oil temps under 270 in pretty much all conditions.

Willow Springs in summer is the only place I had issues with the stock power steering. Nowhere else did I experience it, and Willow has the massive arc of Turn 2 which is at high speed, high loading, and high duration. I've run at Thunderhill and Buttonwillow in similar high temps and had not even a hint of power steering issues.

One thing I don't think I saw mentioned were differentials. I spent the money on a Quaife LSD and love it, even for street use. In fact, prior to installing it I would say the open diff was my biggest gripe with the car. It's trivial to cause the TC to kick in without an LSD.

Steve

Ron380
07-28-2008, 09:50 PM
Thanks for the input, Steve! :thumbs_u:

:mrgreen:

X E Ryder
07-30-2008, 10:42 AM
Great thread! Sorry I have been so busy - no time these days! I will give it a thorough read asap bro! Good on ya! Someone "Bean" him right between the eyes already! :)

SMKG HOT
07-31-2008, 12:53 AM
All great infomation.Thanks everyone.

One thing noted That I hadn't before was PSI.

I started at 40PSI cold all around, drove to the track 6-7 miles, then checked it was like 42psi. Did a track session (10 laps) and looked for scrub. Deflated by 3PSI each time and found that by my third session my Hot PSI was like 35 Front and about 30-31 at the rears. Not sure but based on scrub marks (F1's) I deflated accordingly, and it seem to work great on my car. I have been using the same PSI at the track since.

Weird.........

(Maybe my car is lighter, now that I ripped out everything in the interior and stuck in a alum. seat
I got from Steve)...........






..........Just Kidding, I left the DVD player. LOL

Steve Levin
07-31-2008, 03:49 PM
Walt, based on tire scrub I agree you can run the lower pressures. I had no scrub issues at 34psi cold, but found that I prefered the feel of the tires at 40 cold -- the car seemed to wander less. It's definitely a preference thing, I think.

And you can have my Butler seat when you can pry my cold, dead behind out of it :)

Steve

Ron380
07-31-2008, 08:42 PM
Thanks guys! What tires n' wheels are you running, that you're setting at those pressures? ;)

Steve Levin
08-01-2008, 02:21 PM
My 300C SRT-8 has the stock wheels and the F1 (not RSA) tires.

Steve

Fargo59
08-01-2008, 09:31 PM
hey, this is great. monday im going for track day at dunnville autodrome, and figured i better brush up on the whole road course bit. so set tire pressures to 35-40psi (toyo proxes 4, 245-45-20) and turn my v1's up 3/4 inch so the tires dont contact the body. aside from that, should be the usual, right?

Ron380
08-01-2008, 09:58 PM
Well... what do you consider "the usual"?

Are all the braking and cooling systems in good shape?

Fargo59
08-01-2008, 10:37 PM
R1 rotors have 5000km on them, hawk HPS pads. cooling, for now is heavy duty, r/t package. 180 thermostat, and lowered fan temps. its a track day, not a real race. i just dont want to look like a total tard. maybe just partially retarded. afterall, thats what the helmets for. lol.

MattRobertson
08-01-2008, 11:07 PM
Doesn't have to be a real race to overload stuff. After all these are big sedans and station wagons. The RTs weren't meant to be tracked. Just change your oil right after since you have no oil cooling, and if you have any way to do it, get a tranny temp gauge via a DashHawk or something. So you'll know if you overdo it. Brake fluid change before if its more than a few months old, and one after depending on pedal feel. Watch the pads in between runs. Street pads can be worn down from brand new to steel backing plates in less than a full track day. Its happened to many of us.

And if those R1 rotors are drilled, be prepared to kiss them goodbye. They may survive the day, or they may not.

Fargo59
08-02-2008, 08:39 AM
thanks for the heads up. like i say, its mostly just a track day. maybe 10 laps. im no hardcore racer, nor do i pretend my car is. i just want to see how i can do on the twisties. probably going to be too many cars on the course for my liking anyway.

Ron380
08-02-2008, 08:46 AM
... its a track day, not a real race. i just dont want to look like a total tard. maybe just partially retarded. afterall, thats what the helmets for. lol.

You and me both! LOL :mrgreen:


thanks for the heads up. like i say, its mostly just a track day. maybe 10 laps. im no hardcore racer, nor do i pretend my car is. i just want to see how i can do on the twisties. probably going to be too many cars on the course for my liking anyway.

Same here, that's why I'm doing all I can to get ready for it! :thumbs_u: Have Fun!! :racing:

MattRobertson
08-02-2008, 01:24 PM
10 laps is a real short day and won't hurt anything. Have fun!

Fargo59
08-02-2008, 03:42 PM
yeah, its just a trial thing. like i say, nothing excessive. this is a course some of the shows on speed (dream car garage, and sports car revolution) use for their testing. sean hyland motorsports uses it as well. its an ex airfield that was turned into a circuit. 10 to 20 laps over the course of a day wont hurt.

TTMR
08-04-2008, 12:13 PM
For what it's worth, yesterday at the auto-x I had to run the fronts all the way up to 60. I'm getting more comfortable with the car and I pushed it a lot harder actually resulting in a few scuffs on the wheels due to sidewall deflection. The good news is a stock suspension LX was actually in the lead for a little while.

MattRobertson
08-04-2008, 04:44 PM
dam AWD's. Its not fair.



*grumble* *grumble* *grumble*

Ron380
08-04-2008, 04:56 PM
He meant "in the lead" in our Class, ESP. Edged-out a Mustang, too! :thumbs_u: The top guy there was running a BMW Z4 (?) conv. and was, ummm... a LOT faster than we were! LOL

My Best of the Day was only about 2.5 sec. slower than TTMR's... Considering this was only my 2nd Auto-X and I'm on street tires, I was fairly happy! I was, overall, the slowest car there but it was still a LOT of fun, and I improved my lap time by 7 seconds during the day! :mrgreen:

Mid Ohio on FRIDAY!! :pepper: :racing:

Fargo59
08-04-2008, 05:32 PM
well i ran only a few laps today. nothing that hard really, just twisty road kind of stuff. didn't bring the coil compressors so its hard to raise my spring perches. tire pressures stayed at 30psi. so straight off the street, and kept up with SOME of the fox body mustangs. think i did 5, and then played pit chief for my buddies skyline, who had brake fade issues all day, to the point of failure twice. on the bright side, my HPS's don't squeal anymore. lol

SMKG HOT
08-04-2008, 05:36 PM
Walt, based on tire scrub I agree you can run the lower pressures. I had no scrub issues at 34psi cold, but found that I prefered the feel of the tires at 40 cold -- the car seemed to wander less. It's definitely a preference thing, I think.

And you can have my Butler seat when you can pry my cold, dead behind out of it :)

Steve

Thanks Steve...........:beerchug:

Ron380
08-09-2008, 10:34 AM
Well, yesterday was the Big Day! And what a day it was! :pepper:

First off, with the things I've listed above, I had NO problem on the course, except for body roll and traction! Traction really wasn't too bad, considering the tires I'm running now. Body roll will be much better in a month or two, once the Pedders parts are done for the AWD!
We got 4 sessions around the full course. When I did have lots of open room, I was able to push it some, but since this is my only car I didn't try to go "all-out". I had several people tell me later that they thought I did very well, considering the heavy car and street tires. One guy in a Mazda Miata (who was behind me for a lap) said that on some of the turns the car was juuussst starting to do a 4-wheel drift, and it was nice and even without the back end coming around. I could tell the tires were squealing some, but the sound was nice and even, not rough. That was great to hear from an experienced driver who watched me do that! :mrgreen:

How cool is it to be running a V6, AWD Charger on a road course and have to slow down through the turns for a LAMBORGHINI DIABLO?! :rock: :mrgreen: Granted, he vanished ahead of me on the straights, but then I caught him in the corners! Okay... the driver was taking it pretty easy because he was highly concerned about losing it and damaging that spectacular car... there was a bright yellow Ferrari Convertable that had a blowout on the back straight earlier in the day, slid into a 180 and hit the wall on the passenger side rear wheel. That car may be totaled... very sad to see.

There were some awesome cars there... Ferrari's, Lambo's, a Maserati, an Audi R8 and dozens of others... great car show!

I also got to take a ride in my instructor's Corvette (sorry, didn't get the year and model info. Fairly new one, though) He had only changed the rear springs and had some steering work done on it, otherwise it was all-stock. HOLY MOTHER WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION!!! :shock::panic: NOW I know what a Corvette, in the hands of a trained professional, can really do!! Who needs a flippin' roller-coaster?! Oh, helpful hint... do NOT take a big chug of Gatorade right before strapping in to one of those!! >> :1puke: Don't worry... I made it through the first two laps okay, felt it coming on during the 3rd lap and we made it into pit lane "safely"! I was NOT going to mess up his 'Vette! :mrgreen: Just for the record, I'm the THIRD person he's made sick with his car! :doh: It's all good, though. We had a break there, then an hour for lunch, so I felt pretty good when it was time for me to go out again!

TTMR was there with his Magnum SXT/AWD too. He's more experienced than me, and had his race-tires on (see his post above), so he did much better than I did around the track. :not_worth He did think his rotors were overheating a bit, but the stock pads and everything else held up well.

All in all, a TERRIFIC day, and I'd do it again! I'll hopefully be able to get some video posted later, too. :thumbs_u: :racing:

TTMR
08-09-2008, 08:07 PM
Yesterday sure was a blast and I cant wait to do it again! As Ron said the hot brakes were the only issue I had, at the black flag on my first session (the wrecked Ferrari) I had noticeable hot spotting on my rotors, this was after about ten minutes of track time. Here is a picture from the end of the day after around 80 minutes on the track.
http://photos-f.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-snc1/v314/104/119/512343711/n512343711_1147373_9080.jpg
I'm not sure how well it shows but the rotors are blue now. I had horrible judder in the brakes when they were hot but once cooled they went right back to normal. The only place the brakes held me back was coming off the long back strait away at 115+ I had to brake early and softly to avoid having any real issues with my brakes.
I had to make no adjustment to my front tire pressures as the 60 cold warmed up to 64 hot and was spot on, they only rolled when I slid them. My rears however were folding at 40 cold 45 hot so I took them up to 50 hot and that issue was resolved.
I got to spend about half a lap on Ron's tail as I caught him right towards the end of the passing zone, and he was doing quite well. He was driving good lines and pushing the car right to the edge. Watching him run I really got an appreciation to how neutral the AWD cars are on power, he just slid a bit a few times and the front and rear were stepping out the same amount. That said, having a year of auto-xing under my belt and slicks on all four corners I was MUCH faster so I played around and set myself up to make the passes I could have made if they were allowed.
As for myself I learned a lot, my instructor cut me loose to solo after my second session and as much as I learned from him I just really wanted to get out on my own, with out him as a safety net. I'll be taking an instructor with me the next time I do this as there is so much more I could learn, but I just had to solo out there!

For the record the instructor was VERY impressed by the magnum's capabilities. He drives a 2.7L 300 and said he never would have guessed that such a similar car could do so well.
Have a couple more pictures of the event.
My pit, and fun neighbor
http://photos-g.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-snc1/v314/104/119/512343711/n512343711_1147374_9487.jpg
Here's Ron's charger and my maggie after the event
http://photos-h.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-snc1/v314/104/119/512343711/n512343711_1147375_9831.jpg

PS: Passing Ferraris is fun!

MattRobertson
08-09-2008, 08:49 PM
PS: Passing Ferraris is fun!Not if you are [-]driving[/-] piloting one.


BWAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAAAaaaa!

:thumbs_u:

TTMR
08-09-2008, 09:03 PM
True, the third time I went around the yellow Modena he sure seemed unhappy about it. I never passed him twice in one session but that third time he had gridded up only one car behind me.:Na_Na_Na_Na:

Ron380
08-09-2008, 09:40 PM
I got to spend about half a lap on Ron's tail as I caught him right towards the end of the passing zone, and he was doing quite well. He was driving good lines and pushing the car right to the edge. Watching him run I really got an appreciation to how neutral the AWD cars are on power, he just slid a bit a few times and the front and rear were stepping out the same amount.

PS: Passing Ferraris is fun!

FYI: I had on my 20" wheels with Yokohama Parada Spec-X, 255/45/20 tires, @ 45psi cold in all 4. My stock 18" rims just might be getting race tires instead of snow tires! LOL

I only got to pass one particular Ferrari, but I did get to pass some other nice cars. :mrgreen:

X E Ryder
08-11-2008, 10:54 AM
All right guys! Glad you had fun! :)

Grimlock
08-11-2008, 08:07 PM
Now if you are running on a track and not just in a parking lot, ala SCCA, then the fronts need to go up to 50 and my AWD felt most balanced with 40 in the rear.

Reading through this thread and I just thought I would make a correction on the above SCCA comment. While SCCA does run plenty of autocross (parking lot) events, they also are the largest racing organization in the world. They run *many* track events and many professional races at all of the major "big tracks".

An SCCA racing event is usually pretty hardcore and body to body paint swapping is considered normal (and somewhat common) at these events. So while most of us LX owners won't probably be heading out to register for some SCCA events in our pristine rides, realize that these do exist!

Ron380
08-11-2008, 10:05 PM
That is TRUE, but it's a few levels above where Duncan and I are running right now! :panic: :mrgreen:

We're enjoying the events we can run in using our daily-drivers, without endangering life, limb or sheet metal! LOL (After running at Mid Ohio, though, it sure is tempting...)

:racing: :pepper:

TTMR
08-12-2008, 12:07 AM
True, I should have put "ala auto cross" as it is what I meant. I have found that I have three sets of pressures, 50f-40r for parking lot auto cross, 60f-40r for on track auto cross and 60f-45r for tack days.

These are cold pressures on the BFG slicks

Todd TCE
08-12-2008, 02:09 PM
YAs Ron said the hot brakes were the only issue. I had noticeable hot spotting on my rotors, this was after about ten minutes of track time. Here is a picture from the end of the day after around 80 minutes on the track. I'm not sure how well it shows but the rotors are blue now. I had horrible judder in the brakes when they were hot but once cooled they went right back to normal. The only place the brakes held me back was coming off the long back strait away at 115+ I had to brake early and softly to avoid having any real issues with my brakes.


The color change is not uncommon. You're get past that soon enough. The judder issue is most likely the pads breaking down under continued use-sometimes called "chunking". The small streaks here are evidence of that as well. I'll bet if you pull them they'll be some material missing from the pad in or about that area.

A couple of thoughts:
1. Get more serious track pads to handle the sustained heat.
2. Try to get some air to them in order to run them a bit cooler.
3. If not slotted, take an abrasive wheel to the pad and slot them in two places. This will allow the materials to escape better as they wear and prevent the pad from building up high spots.
http://photos-f.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-snc1/v314/104/119/512343711/n512343711_1147373_9080.jpg

TTMR
08-13-2008, 04:52 PM
Thanks for the input! At this point I'm undecided on what to do to my brakes. Do I get some yellow stuff pads and be happy with the rotors and calipers I have or do I just buy a complete set from you, choices choices!

I also have a plan that I need to put into action on cooling the suckers down.

Ron380
08-13-2008, 08:34 PM
I also have a plan that I need to put into action on cooling the suckers down.

I told you... the track officials will never go for you spreading crushed ice all over the track! :doh:

Besides the fact it wouldn't really help cool the brakes, it also gives an unfair advantage to you with the AWD!! The lil' Miata guys would be all over the place! :panic:



:mrgreen: :pepper:

Fargo59
08-13-2008, 09:25 PM
hahaha, true. one trick i saw once was cutting a hole in the dust shield and welding on a thin wall 2" tube to it at a 45* angle, flexible hose could be routed to it on the rear wheels, pulling in fresh air to the rear of the rotor, on the fronts, the wheel well would be enough air flow (especially with AWD's) to push air into the new vent tube.

TTMR
08-13-2008, 10:04 PM
Think I'm going a little more hog wild than that. Now if I could just get off my butt and do it!

Ron380
08-13-2008, 10:09 PM
hahaha, true. one trick i saw once was cutting a hole in the dust shield and welding on a thin wall 2" tube to it at a 45* angle, flexible hose could be routed to it on the rear wheels, pulling in fresh air to the rear of the rotor, on the fronts, the wheel well would be enough air flow (especially with AWD's) to push air into the new vent tube.

You mean like this?
http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=91831

Thanks again, MattR!! :not_worth

Fargo59
08-13-2008, 10:51 PM
yep, but i read it about 10 years ago in an issue of hot rod, or something of the like.

MattRobertson
08-13-2008, 11:53 PM
hah. I thought about adding some kind of duct to the rears since I damn near set them on fire last time but I am trying out some new super duper carbon-kevlar rear pads to go with the Poly H's I have in the front. The rotors were OK. It was the pads that cooked so maybe I can do without ducts. That would be a tricky one to do well.

Fargo59
08-14-2008, 08:02 AM
tricky? yes, but at least there is no steering axis to worry about.

MattRobertson
08-14-2008, 03:20 PM
true that. I've got some ideas and we'll see if they are needed after the next track day. Todd pointed me to some pads that just might give me the slight bump up I need in the back.

Steve Levin
08-14-2008, 06:57 PM
Of course, the cheapest brake fix is to brake softer. It's amazing how little extra "push" is required to go from "not really heating the brakes at all" to "setting pads on fire and warping rotors."

We're not talking about driving like grannies here, either. Just brake a little earlier and a little easier. Think "graze the brakes" to yourself, and focus on turning in and getting the power down. Much of the brake heating happens at the end of big straights...and that's not what road courses are about!

Sure, you might be 3 seconds a lap slower, but really, isn't it worth it not to smoke the brakes each and every time you get out on the track? You might not even lose that much time -- in fact, I'd be willing to bet for those doing this just once in a while that you'll actually be FASTER because you won't be upsetting the car nearly as much. Think about the tire testing scene in "Days of Thunder." In fact, I'll bet a burger on it. :)

Steve

MattRobertson
08-14-2008, 07:35 PM
"slower is faster" as they say, indeed. I actually smoked the things after I spent some time practicing that: Trying to get around the entire course without using the brakes at all. Of course you can't do that, but you try anyway and you learn stuff. After I got used to that -- and yeah it was very different and no question easier on the car -- I tried speeding up and getting into the brakes a little more. Thats when I scored my best lap times ever, and got meatballed.

And while I cooked the brake pads, I didn't cook the brakes. That was the first time I had zero bubbles in the brake fluid. And the rear rotors were fine. Something a little different was happening I think.

I'm concentrating on being smooth and finding places I can go faster but haven't because of where my gearing redlines, which is a permanent limit on a given segment unless I learn how to upshift safely and intelligently in those areas.

Ron380
08-14-2008, 07:53 PM
Steve, Matt-- GREAT observations! Thanks!!

:thumbs_u: :not_worth

X E Ryder
08-19-2008, 10:58 AM
Yeah, smooth is fast - look at the pros: You see their cars just go around the track like slot cars - no herky jerky, every single move done with the least effect on the car. On/Off throttle smooth, On/Off brakes smooth, easy Left/Right steering inputs, nothing sudden, thats why they make it look so easy. :)

Grimlock
08-19-2008, 02:07 PM
Yeah this is very true. Most people who think they are "fast" are very jerky. When I was instructing it was always fun to get one of these "fast" drivers for the first time. Pretty quickly they are humbled! As you drive more and more on the track you should start getting a 6th sense on the balance of your car. I've always thought it was somewhat like dancing.

Now whenever I am in the car with other drivers on the street I am always wondering what they are thinking. It seems so obvious to me that they are off balance all the time and horrid drivers...but they don't have a clue. But in general, most drivers are clueless.

TTMR
08-19-2008, 11:15 PM
Thats why I think more people should auto cross! It was not how fast I was that impressed my instructor, it was how smooth. Auto crossing was the key. The solo events are always violent and jerky feeling, even when driven right, but if you can make one of those events relatively smooth then when you get out on a track the smooth comes easy.
It also come in handy out on the street. I can't tell you how many times the extra car control I learned auto crossing has helped out. Just as an example a couple of weeks ago I hit a pot hole on a high way interchange that sent the car sliding sideways at 70mph. It was my solo experience that made it a real non event. I hit the gas, not the brake and the AWD pulled me right out, no sweat. I feel that these SCCA events have made me a MUCH safer driver than I was before, it's important to know how to drive your car for all it's worth. In my pilot training I had to learn how to fly the plane at maximum performance because some day I might need it, this holds true for cars too. I wasn't at max performance going around that interchange, but I sure was after I hit that pot hole. I'm thankful that I had the experience to react correctly with out having to stop to think.

I think that this brings up what is probably the biggest thing for road course prep, YOU! The loose nut behind the wheel is the most important link in the chain. Most of us, and me for sure, are holding the car back, not the other way around. Seat time is the key, and the SCCA solo events are a great place to get it, it's cheap and the car can handle it in stock form even if the tires will hate you for it.


WOW, I sound like Auto-x's pimp!

SMKG HOT
08-19-2008, 11:58 PM
Thats why I think more people should auto cross!
It was not how fast I was that impressed my instructor, it was how smooth. Auto crossing was the key. The solo events are always violent and jerky feeling, even when driven right, but if you can make one of those events relatively smooth then when you get out on a track the smooth comes easy.
WOW, I sound like Auto-x's pimp!

TTMR,

I think you have allot of good thing to say to "support the sport", but I don't thrash my car auto crossing in an air field or parking lots. It's just too tough on cars. (Bushings, PS Pumps, Tires). The geometry of the track differs vastly from that of a flat horizontal (usually, un-maintained) driving surface.

Not Sh*tting on your post, just throughing my opinion out there. Keep up the great post Bro.

Ron380
08-20-2008, 09:00 AM
I'm definitely working on tightening that big, loose nut you're referring to! LOL

I think I need a bigger wrench! :mrgreen:

My last time on the auto cross, I had several runs that proved, to me, the "smooth" feeling. I had two runs that "felt faster" but had slower times, and I had two runs that "felt slower" but had faster times! :pepper:
I'm slowly starting to figure this out...


As for the wear on the car, TTMR and myself (and some others) who run auto-x regularly, are making upgrades to the car and also change fluids much more often than "regular" drivers. That's part of what this thread is about, so people can still enjoy their cars after "stretching it out" a bit! :thumbs_u:

SMKG HOT
08-20-2008, 11:53 AM
I'm definitely working on tightening that big, loose nut you're referring to! LOL

I think I need a bigger wrench! :mrgreen:

My last time on the auto cross, I had several runs that proved, to me, the "smooth" feeling. I had two runs that "felt faster" but had slower times, and I had two runs that "felt slower" but had faster times! :pepper:
I'm slowly starting to figure this out...


As for the wear on the car, TTMR and myself (and some others) who run auto-x regularly, are making upgrades to the car and also change fluids much more often than "regular" drivers. That's part of what this thread is about, so people can still enjoy their cars after "stretching it out" a bit! :thumbs_u:

I can appreciate that: I run New: Coolant, Oil, Oil Filter, PS Fluid, Brake Fluid Purged, Pads, usually rotors and tires (good for two track days) every time I track my car. This is usually done the day or two after I go. Then the car sits until the next track event with little or no use. I usually have a 130 mile trip (highway) to the track. Run the car, then back home. Once again these things are changed.
It becomes a pretty expensive PM (Periodic Maintenace) schedule to just tear up for the sake of having fun.
I am all for "stretching it out" a bit, but just don't beat my ride.
I love to autocross, but I have found I much rather enjoy driving it on a quality track, then breaking something autocrossing. Any chance a person gets to improve their skills is a big plus, I would just rather do it at Laguna Seca.
I too have made "a few upgrades to my car", And continue to improve on those. :)

SMKG HOT
08-20-2008, 11:55 AM
Of course, the cheapest brake fix is to brake softer. It's amazing how little extra "push" is required to go from "not really heating the brakes at all" to "setting pads on fire and warping rotors."

We're not talking about driving like grannies here, either. Just brake a little earlier and a little easier. Think "graze the brakes" to yourself, and focus on turning in and getting the power down. Much of the brake heating happens at the end of big straights...and that's not what road courses are about!

Sure, you might be 3 seconds a lap slower, but really, isn't it worth it not to smoke the brakes each and every time you get out on the track? You might not even lose that much time -- in fact, I'd be willing to bet for those doing this just once in a while that you'll actually be FASTER because you won't be upsetting the car nearly as much. Think about the tire testing scene in "Days of Thunder." In fact, I'll bet a burger on it. :)

Steve

Very, Very, good Steve. You always write informative posts.

MattRobertson
08-20-2008, 11:58 AM
I dunno Walt... I will be the first to agree that the autoX in Irvine that we both ran had horrific pavement, since it was that abrasive airport runway surface that just plain ate tires alive... but if I am looking at car wear, you got 20 minutes at essentially two speeds: full blast and full brakes, with brutal engine braking via tranny downshifts at many corners. Brake temps are almost enough to turn the rotors into slag. Compare that to an autocross. You are talking two minutes of hi-revving 2nd gear at what? 50-60 mph tops? With some brake taps, trails and maybe a stomp at the end?

Yeah its tough on the tires... and the p/s pump. And auto-x doesn't suit our cars well versus something smaller and lighter (which is pretty much all other cars :D). But I'd say Auto-X is peanuts on wear/tear when it comes to engine, fluids, braking and such.

SMKG HOT
08-20-2008, 12:06 PM
I dunno Walt... I will be the first to agree that the autoX in Irvine that we both ran had horrific pavement, since it was that abrasive airport runway surface that just plain ate tires alive... but if I am looking at car wear, you got 20 minutes at essentially two speeds: full blast and full brakes, with brutal engine braking via tranny downshifts at many corners. Brake temps are almost enough to turn the rotors into slag. Compare that to an autocross. You are talking two minutes of hi-revving 2nd gear at what? 50-60 mph tops? With some brake taps, trails and maybe a stomp at the end?

Yeah its tough on the tires... and the p/s pump. And auto-x doesn't suit our cars well versus something smaller and lighter (which is pretty much all other cars :D). But I'd say Auto-X is peanuts on wear/tear when it comes to engine, fluids, braking and such.


Matt,

Agreed. You know where I was going with it, Bro. :roll:

(Of course if I had your cash flow, I would just have 2 cars, one for auto-X and one for LS.) :)

All kidding aside, just pointing out the cost relationship and time it takes to properly prepare for a track day that already cost you 350-400.00 just to show up for.

Thanks Matt.......:beerchug:

Ron380
08-20-2008, 01:24 PM
More great info. Walt- Thanks!! :)

TTMR
08-20-2008, 06:11 PM
It's all good Walt, don't worry about it. If I could hit the track more often than once or twice a year I probably wouldn't auto-x either. I just gotta get my racin' fix some how!

Ron380
08-23-2008, 09:07 AM
This question came up on CF, have any of you tried these tires?


The car is my daily driver, so a set of tires usually sees one track day and a bunch of commuting.
Have any of you guys run your Nitto Invos on the road course? How do they compare to the F1's for performance and longevity?
Thanks in advance for any info...


Vredestein Ultrac Sessanta SUV tires (275/40/20's) on all four corners. Do a search. You'll be amazed at the reviews of these tires....specifically in the handling/road racing departments.

What do you think about 275/40/20's on all 4 corners?

MattRobertson
08-23-2008, 12:59 PM
I think X E Ryder runs Nitto Invo's. CoolVanilla just replaced his Vredestein's ... after just 5000 miles. They simply wore out. He wasn't happy.

On a side note, I ran Laguna again yesterday, and am going to try and get in again tomorrow. The Bridgestones in the front were my former rears and they wore right up to the diamonds and no more. 255/35/20 seems to be the perfect width to use and not 245/35/20 - if you go low profile and high cost on the tires. I now have 4 days on those two tires and they are good for at LEAST one more and probably two or three. 7 days use on track tires would be a near miracle. Part of it is the tires and part of it is me driving better.

MattRobertson
08-23-2008, 01:06 PM
here's something I used for the first time yesterday and I would recommend as your next track toy:

psiclops dual tire gauge / pressure equalizer (http://www.tirerack.com/accessories/psiclops/psiclops_extreme.jsp)

*super* handy, well-made and easy to use. Cost is reasonable.

Basically, its a tire gauge that you hook up to two tires. Connecting the two automatically equalizes the pressure between them, and you can easily bleed excess pressure out. If you have a compressor at home, you can use it as a regulator to feed air equally in. Really slick.

Ron380
08-23-2008, 01:17 PM
Hmmm... that Psiclops is pretty slick! Thanks for the link! :thumbs_u:

Looks like we might just have to start a "database" for tires here... I'm sure different tires will wind up working well for different people/tracks/conditions, etc.

Just 7 days on track tires?! OUCH! :panic:

MattRobertson
08-23-2008, 01:24 PM
7 days is a lot for track tires mounted onto a 4400-lb sled :-)

Q: "How do you become a millionaire in racing?"
A: "Start out as a billionaire"

Ron380
08-23-2008, 02:05 PM
"You can earn a small fortune as a race car driver!
...If you start with a large fortune!" LOL

*Check out the Expanded Tire Section in the first post!*

MattRobertson
08-23-2008, 02:53 PM
One thing I would add to your tire pressure section, Ron, is that too much pressure makes the car progressively less controllable. A factory Bridgestone rep had suggested to me that - based on my tire wear, vehicle weight and use - I try going up, pressurewise, to the limit of the tire, which is 50 psi cold and work my way down. I did this yesterday and it was a whole new car. A whole new dangerous and undrivable car. Pressure when warm was around 57 psi.

When I lowered pressure to 45 psi, it was 45 psi on warm tires. Thats an important distinction to make. I just measured pressure again and cold pressure is about 38. All of this will vary as the weather changes day by day. I'd overfill the tires a bit and, after driving to the track, adjust pressure downwards to meet whatever your goal is. The target tire pressure is going to be different for each tire and application. Maybe even for each driver's preference. For me, the wear diamonds on all sides are not seeing any wear. I even have a little space above them, so I figure I am golden insofar as wear is concerned. If anything I could take pressure down a pound or two.

willi
08-25-2008, 09:04 AM
This was out at ECR in TX http://www.eaglescanyon.com/2008/home.php. I am running 255 GY F1 Supercars all the way around. I would like to go with an 18" or 19" wheel and true track tires (if they will hold the weight of out cars).

Does anybody know how to calculate the offset and back spacing to make sure a wheel will fit over the SRT8 Brembos?

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3206/2708610512_bef605b9c7.jpg?v=0

X E Ryder
08-26-2008, 10:57 AM
This question came up on CF, have any of you tried these tires?

What do you think about 275/40/20's on all 4 corners?

I run the INVO currently, looks like 3-4 track days out of a set, I'm staggered (f 245, r 275), never rub with a 2.5" drop, and they handle better in my opinion than the "Right Said Vreds" do.

Best compliment I can offer the INVO is when you overdrive the corner, and your car starts to go away, it's progressive, and comes back just as "politely" as it goes away. The last thing you want is a tires that sticks to the breaking point, and goes off like greased lightning (like Pirelli's on a Ferrari, was that a wall?).

:sosayweall:

Ron380
08-26-2008, 11:20 AM
The last thing you want is a tires that sticks to the breaking point, and goes off like greased lightning (like Pirelli's on a Ferrari, was that a wall?).

:sosayweall:

Yep, that was a wall... Bit of a backstory to that, though... turns out he had 7-yr.-old tires on there! :doh: He had a blowout in the middle of the backstretch (probably going 100 mph. or so), spun a 180 deg. and hit the wall on that right-rear tire. Considering the engine is right there... that car may be totaled! :sad:

-> Sorry gang, I can't post a pic. of that. It's on a pro-photog's server.

Bud
08-26-2008, 03:05 PM
I run the INVO currently, looks like 3-4 track days out of a set, I'm staggered (f 245, r 275), never rub with a 2.5" drop, and they handle better in my opinion than the "Right Said Vreds" do.

Best compliment I can offer the INVO is when you overdrive the corner, and your car starts to go away, it's progressive, and comes back just as "politely" as it goes away. The last thing you want is a tires that sticks to the breaking point, and goes off like greased lightning (like Pirelli's on a Ferrari, was that a wall?).

:sosayweall:

This exact same compliment I say about the "Right Said Vreds". I think the slip angle threshold is greater. I might have to give the INVO's a try. I personally like the 275's on all for corners. IMO It seems to reduce understeer a bit better than when I had 245's up front. WRT Jason getting 5k miles out of his V's. That seems to be an anomaly and not the norm. How many miles did you get out or your V's?

X E Ryder
08-27-2008, 12:23 AM
This exact same compliment I say about the "Right Said Vreds". I think the slip angle threshold is greater. I might have to give the INVO's a try. I personally like the 275's on all for corners. IMO It seems to reduce understeer a bit better than when I had 245's up front. WRT Jason getting 5k miles out of his V's. That seems to be an anomaly and not the norm. How many miles did you get out or your V's?

Agreeably Bud, if you go spec for spec, Vreds and INVOs are so VERY close in specs - in the end it could be driver preference. I hear equal voices and while I stand on the INVO side, many drivers I respect like the Vred's too! :)

Ron380
09-02-2008, 07:39 PM
This question was posted on another forum...


Is anyone autocrossing or roadcourse driving on viper replicas or srt replicas .And how is it working out. I here alot of complaining about the cast wheels vs forged.

We haven't even touched on the "cast vs. forged" wheel debate yet... I can recall similar debates from when I owned a 4x4 truck... Any thoughts?

I'm assuming he's asking about 20" rims, too. I believe 18" rims would be better (for those of us who can still fit them over their brakes), due to lower weight, resulting in better acceleration and braking. Also many more tires available for 18's.

Bud
09-02-2008, 07:53 PM
I run the INVO currently, looks like 3-4 track days out of a set, I'm staggered (f 245, r 275), never rub with a 2.5" drop, and they handle better in my opinion than the "Right Said Vreds" do.

Best compliment I can offer the INVO is when you overdrive the corner, and your car starts to go away, it's progressive, and comes back just as "politely" as it goes away. The last thing you want is a tires that sticks to the breaking point, and goes off like greased lightning (like Pirelli's on a Ferrari, was that a wall?).

:sosayweall:

I pulled the trigger on the Invo 275, 245 stagger today. I went to my usual 2.5 mile course of twisties for a comparison. I have to ask though with the utmost sincerity...have you driven a car with "your" same setup with 275 Vredesteins all the way around? My first impression of the staggered Invo setup on my car is that it has "drastically" reduced its performance. The turn in is better, I'll give it that. But, in every other aspect it is much sloppier and not very sure footed. It felt like I had about 10lbs of air in all the tires. I actually pulled over to check pressures (38psi) and check my damping settings (3 clicks from firmest) I think performance decrease has more to do with the front tire size than the tire brand. I'm "almost" certain that the performance would be identical if I had Invo 275's up front. I'm going to borrow SDCarguy's 275's so I can give a better head to head tire comparison.

willi
09-03-2008, 05:21 PM
Matt Robertson has recommended the Bridgestone Potenza RE050A Pole Position that had rating of 140.

I ordered the tires from Tire Rack which specified the 140 rating and the 280 showed up at my door WTF?

I spent about 30 minutes on the phone with the Bridgestone engineer and......

The rating on the tire is now 280 but is the EXACT compound and everything else as the 140 tires!!!!!

Just thought you all might like to know

And I went with the 275/30/20 XL :thumbs_u:

MattRobertson
09-03-2008, 05:40 PM
So its the same, they just re-rated it? Exact same? hmmm. me no likey. They give a reason?

WTF indeed. I just triple-checked the ones I bought in late August - less than a month ago - and they say 140.

REALLY looking forward to seeing these on your SRT wheels, assuming thats where they are going. Can you get some sidewall shots showing how much wider it is than the rim?

willi
09-03-2008, 05:49 PM
So its the same, they just re-rated it? Exact same? hmmm. me no likey. They give a reason?

WTF indeed. I just triple-checked the ones I bought in late August - less than a month ago - and they say 140.

REALLY looking forward to seeing these on your SRT wheels, assuming thats where they are going. Can you get some sidewall shots showing how much wider it is than the rim?

They are going on the 20X9 viper replicas. I am having the face of the wheels painted sublime (the rest of the wheel is gloss black) and my numbers will also be sublime (if they ever get here).

The rating is the MAX that a tire can be not the minimum and they were having issues with sales based on the 140 number and the general public not liking it. The engineer was great to talk to and had all kinds of info that was way over my head but stated that it will be the exact compound. I do not like it but, it is what it is. I am keeping my fingers crossed for 20" track tires right after SEMA which is about when these will be ready for replacement.

I will get pics in a couple of weeks once they are painted and mounted.

Ryan

Ron380
09-03-2008, 07:37 PM
Thanks for the info. Willi!! May I copy that post to the Page 1 Tire Section?

willi
09-03-2008, 11:24 PM
anything I post on here is free game!!!!!!!


Thanks for the info. Willi!! May I copy that post to the Page 1 Tire Section?

TTMR
09-07-2008, 10:27 PM
Ok so a front strut brace might be a little more mandatory than I first thought. I was at an auto-x today running on my street tires, and I broke the drivers door window defroster vent. It just popped and landed in my lap. Guess that dash is flexing a little, I would hate to see what might have happened if I'd been on the slicks, but I knew I wouldn't have time to put my streets back on and still make it to the airport for my trip to Knoxville.

ylwnana
09-18-2008, 06:26 PM
I am installing the eibach tubular upper A arms today with camber/ caster adjustability. going to set the front up with 2 degrees of neg camber instead of the .75 ive had. should let me use a little less air without rolling the sidewalls. ill test it tommorow and let you know! btw.. the invos grip better as they wear ive found.

ylwnana
09-20-2008, 05:28 PM
the camber got set @ -1.8 degree camber in front and is @ about -1.5 in the rear. i did a quick run and it seemed to not be as prone to roll/scuff the outer tread with 40 psi. i def need more testing.

Ron380
09-21-2008, 07:25 PM
Just ran another autocross today! :racing:

Not too big of a crowd, we all got in 8 runs today! :banana: I also got my best run EVER with a 55.46 seconds! Not in contention for anything, but I'm gettin' better!! :rock: :bigthumb: Also, I was NOT the slowest overall car on the course, for the first time! Woo Hoo! :mrgreen:

What was really interesting, though, was getting to ride along in TTMR's Magnum. He has the same powertrain as mine (+ headers), but he also has the smaller tires with race-tires on them... His car feels like a TOTALLY different car than mine! I was really surprised what a difference the smaller wheels and sticky tires made, compared side-by-side with mine. Can't wait 'till next year, because I'm planning on having suspension upgrades done, and getting better tires on my 18" rims! :)

MattRobertson
09-21-2008, 07:58 PM
oh yeah, the tires are what its all about. Its not the motor that makes you go fast, or the brakes that stop you. Its the tires that do that. Spiff the tires and you spiff everything.

TTMR
09-21-2008, 08:07 PM
Ron left the best part out, I WON! But with Ron only a few seconds behind me I need to be on the ball to stay ahead of him next year!

I also have a question for you Matt, do you have dents in your roof from the car flexing or is it just me?

Ron380
09-21-2008, 08:24 PM
Ron left the best part out, I WON! Didn't want to steal your thunder, buddy!
But with Ron only a few seconds behind me I need to be on the ball to stay ahead of him next year!

muwahahaahaaa... yea, next year's gonna be FUN!

I also have a question for you Matt, do you have dents in your roof from the car flexing or is it just me?

... or have you ever had your defroster vent pop out while going through a hard corner... :doh:


:Na_Na_Na_Na:

Ron380
09-22-2008, 08:34 PM
Posts #1 and #8 updated with corrected tire info.

MattRobertson
09-23-2008, 12:15 PM
I also have a question for you Matt, do you have dents in your roof from the car flexing or is it just me?


... or have you ever had your defroster vent pop out while going through a hard corner...
Jesus H Christ... what is it with you guys???:Na_Na_Na_Na:

No I've never had any of that. I wonder if it has anything to do with the AWD platform? I have a strut bar on the front but thats the only body stiffening I have on the car. A Bridgestone tire engineer actually recommended I do NOT stiffen the body too much cuz it can cause the tires to have incomplete contact with the ground when its an uneven surface. Kind of like laying a brick on top of a volleyball. The edges of the brick will be airborne. Not a perfect analogy but you get the idea.

Couple things Ron and I already discussed via PM already:
The General Exclaim UHP is now only 'A' traction. Boo hiss.
I talked with a Yokohoma engineer last Friday at the track and he felt they did not have an acceptable track-use tire in their stable for these cars. Too much weight getting slung around.
That same engineer, in a tech session, opined that UTQG is a better measure of lateral stickiness than traction rating, as traction rating is not a real-world measure but rather is a measure of lateral wet-road braking capability. A low UTQG tire is stickier, but will wear out faster.Also...
I've run 43-45 PSI (hot) on the 255/35/20 RE-050A Potenzas at both Laguna Seca and Thunder Hill and tire wear has been ... well there is no noticeable wear. Thats almost miraculous. Pressures over 45 when hot get very spongy very quickly. For that tire, consider 45 hot a max and try and keep it to 43.
Tires measure with a pyrometer around 200 degrees after a track run. Bear this in mind when using your thumb to release air from the tire after a session.

TTMR
09-23-2008, 05:18 PM
I can't even blame the slicks for the defroster vent, that popped out with my A traction rated Cooper all seasons installed. I just went from left to right in a slalom during the solo event two weeks ago and well the left window vent landed in my lap. I'll glue it back in after my strut bar shows up. Yeah, I broke down and ordered a Razors Edge unit last night after putting two more dents in the roof on Sunday. I think I might also install this http://www.razorsedgemotorsports.com/raedmochmabr.html over the winter.

I can see what the tire engineer was getting at saying that the car should flex to keep the tires on the ground, but isn't that what the suspension is for?

MattRobertson
09-23-2008, 05:56 PM
The suspension can only go so far, so fast? Its something I have heard elsewhere as well from a guy I know who races in SCCA. Actually that was the guy who gave me the volleyball/brick example. Remember this only comes into play when the pavement is transitioning from one plane to another, say for example a banked chicane or set of esses.

TTMR
09-23-2008, 06:12 PM
Camber change?
http://photos-f.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-snc1/v314/104/119/512343711/n512343711_1358061_5196.jpg
Note: that tar line is the low point of that section of track

Ron380
09-24-2008, 01:22 PM
It doesn't show up so well in that pic, but there was a BIG bump there! Two different people (not us!) actually dinged their rims there and left gouges in the pavement! :panic:

Grimlock
09-24-2008, 09:22 PM
Is that an autocross (it looks like it)? I've never been to an autocross at a big track! You would think a track would try to avoid bumps. Imagine the bump in a full race car. If it is severe in your street cars, they would be crazy in a race car! I wouldn't want to hit that bump in the Porsche 962...hit the bump and have the boost kick in=bad.

Ron380
09-24-2008, 09:39 PM
Aye, that thar be an autocross! Arrrrr!

Okay... I don't know where that came from... I'm tired. :roll:
That's in the infield of Kil Kare Speedway. It's a pretty short track, I think they just race Sprint cars there or something. We were crossing kind of "against the grain", the regular racers wouldn't normally be making a hard left in that location!
Check this out:
http://www.worscca.org/images/solo/courses/2008/PE3.gif
That's the course we were running. :panic: :banana:

TTMR
09-24-2008, 09:58 PM
Oddly the way my car is set up (read stock) that bump was advantageous on my line. I drove the front end into it just as I needed lots of front traction. It really pitched me around the corner, in a violent sort of way, but it worked.

TTMR
09-24-2008, 09:59 PM
Aye, that thar be an autocross! Arrrrr!
Talk like a pirate day was last Friday, you're just a little late there

Ron380
09-25-2008, 08:43 AM
Talk like a pirate day was last Friday, you're just a little late there

"Well, the Code is more what you'd call 'guidelines' than actual 'rules', you see..."

:mrgreen:

cbutler32
09-26-2008, 01:13 AM
this is by far one of the best threads I have read in quiet some time.
Good info, good input.
nice to see someone (Matt) has the cash to continue to push the limit for the rest of us.
No likey the Vstein info on 5,000 miles for cool's ride.
Bud, since you just switched to the Invo's what did your Steins give you for mileage?
I am going to be doing sort of a track day in a couple weeks with 8 new M5's, 3 Nissan GT-R's, a slew of Porsches - carrera GT and a GT3 RS and some Lambo's again. Last time out we had 28 cars. 116 miles. zero cops, perfect weather and smiles all around.
I will tell you this, going downhill (about 10 miles of twisties) in our cars is not recommended when you are in the fast group. At the bottom, I had smoke billowing out of the front wheel wells and was just getting ready to pop the trunk and pull out the fire extinguisher. But I stayed within 20 yards of the GT3 RS and pulled an M5 most of time. The best was when I popped the hood and the M5 guys all said "see, I told you he had a supercharger" - to which my reply was "uh guys... that's a cold air intake". At that point one of my buddies strolled up and made my day. He says to them "guys the difference between you and Chris' car - he just drives better than you do".
Just started my new job and I am looking forward to getting back on the track and turning some laps with you guys.
Later,
Chris
cbutler32

Bud
09-26-2008, 01:23 AM
this is by far one of the best threads I have read in quiet some time.
Good info, good input.
nice to see someone (Matt) has the cash to continue to push the limit for the rest of us.
No likey the Vstein info on 5,000 miles for cool's ride.
Bud, since you just switched to the Invo's what did your Steins give you for mileage?
I am going to be doing sort of a track day in a couple weeks with 8 new M5's, 3 Nissan GT-R's, a slew of Porsches - carrera GT and a GT3 RS and some Lambo's again. Last time out we had 28 cars. 116 miles. zero cops, perfect weather and smiles all around.
I will tell you this, going downhill (about 10 miles of twisties) in our cars is not recommended when you are in the fast group. At the bottom, I had smoke billowing out of the front wheel wells and was just getting ready to pop the trunk and pull out the fire extinguisher. But I stayed within 20 yards of the GT3 RS and pulled an M5 most of time. The best was when I popped the hood and the M5 guys all said "see, I told you he had a supercharger" - to which my reply was "uh guys... that's a cold air intake". At that point one of my buddies strolled up and made my day. He says to them "guys the difference between you and Chris' car - he just drives better than you do".
Just started my new job and I am looking forward to getting back on the track and turning some laps with you guys.
Later,
Chris
cbutler32


Chris - I PM'd Matt and Jason (Cool Vanilla) about the mileage on the V's. That was definitely the exception and not the norm. I got 16k out of my V's. And IMO the Invo's are horrible lateral handling tires compared to the V's. I talked with a few folks about why the V's seem to handle the turns so much better than most of the common replacement tires and it all comes back to the sidewall stiffness associated with them being an SUV tire designed for European SUV's weighing around 4600 lbs....a good fit for the LX platform. I know Matt's experience with road racing has shown that you need a lower profile tire to comensate for the LX's weight. I'd love to throw a set of V's (275/40/20's) on his car and do a comparison at the track. I bet they'd suprise him. Not once with the V's did I ever get the amount of understeer and sidewall flex that I do with the Invo's. As a matter of fact, I didn't get any understeer or sidewall flex with the V's. Congrats on the new job buddy!! :beerchug:

cbutler32
09-26-2008, 01:37 AM
Chris - I PM'd Matt and Jason (Cool Vanilla) about the mileage on the V's. That was definitely the exception and not the norm. I got 16k out of my V's. And IMO the Invo's are horrible lateral handling tires compared to the V's. I talked with a few folks about why the V's seem to handle the turns so much better than most of the common replacement tires and it all comes back to the sidewall stiffness associated with them being an SUV tire designed for European SUV's weighing around 4600 lbs....a good fit for the LX platform. I know Matt's experience with road racing has shown that you need a lower profile tire to comensate for the LX's weight. I'd love to throw a set of V's (275/40/20's) on his car and do a comparison at the track. I bet they'd suprise him. Not once with the V's did I ever get the amount of understeer and sidewall flex that I do with the Invo's. As a matter of fact, I didn't get any understeer or sidewall flex with the V's. Congrats on the new job buddy!! :beerchug:
you know I rolled into eastlake for the M&G and you didn't show.
lame. something about a freakin' trip to texas or something...
:)
I was going to buy the V's today. As I am talking with Rich from Fairmount Tire in Los Angeles today, he tells me the new price is $170, not the $150 they were 3 weeks ago when I spoke with him. So...
I am a little pissy right now over it and am looking at other options.
I agree on the whole principal with the V's. There is a guy back east in VA who is on his 2nd SRT8 and he runs them and loved the Steins on VIR's roadcoarse.
thanks on the congrats.
you up for a little road running in a couple of weeks?
I am going to be able to bring 4-5 guys this time out.

Bud
09-26-2008, 01:44 AM
you know I rolled into eastlake for the M&G and you didn't show.
lame. something about a freakin' trip to texas or something...
:)
I was going to buy the V's today. As I am talking with Rich from Fairmount Tire in Los Angeles today, he tells me the new price is $170, not the $150 they were 3 weeks ago when I spoke with him. So...
I am a little pissy right now over it and am looking at other options.
I agree on the whole principal with the V's. There is a guy back east in VA who is on his 2nd SRT8 and he runs them and loved the Steins on VIR's roadcoarse.
thanks on the congrats.
you up for a little road running in a couple of weeks?
I am going to be able to bring 4-5 guys this time out.

Let me know the dates. I'm going to be in Miami the last two weeks in October....and then Iraq most of November/December.

Bite the bullet on the extra $80 on the V's. You're not going to find a better handling daily driver replacement....especially for the price. And since I know you like the twisties...you can thank me when you get them!

ChargerGirl
09-26-2008, 02:53 AM
*taking notes*

Great thread!! :)

MattRobertson
09-26-2008, 12:51 PM
Don't be squawking on the pricing for the V's guys... its hitting every tire. Petroleum prices. My price on my last pair of Pole Positions was ... horrifying.



Camber change? ...Yeah I guess so. We weren't really thinking about violent changes. Just normal ones. Like when you pop over the top of the Kink at Thunder Hill, or swoop down off the top of the Corkscrew at Laguna. Thats a significant change in the plane of the the track.


It doesn't show up so well in that pic, but there was a BIG bump there! Two different people (not us!) actually dinged their rims there and left gouges in the pavement! :panic:


Oddly the way my car is set up (read stock) that bump was advantageous on my line. I drove the front end into it just as I needed lots of front traction. It really pitched me around the corner, in a violent sort of way, but it worked.

OK and you guys are wondering why **** is flying off your car and you have dents showing up in the body? Go ask your wife to smack you in the head, please.


nice to see someone (Matt) has the cash to continue to push the limit for the rest of us.The only reason I can do it is I have the car dialed in to the point where my tires are not wearing (much), my brake pads are not wearing (much) and my rotors are surviving. The real nasty $$$ consumables are not getting consumed. That stuff is brutal on the wallet. All I need to buy for my next three days (assuming nothing breaks) is brake fluid. I need about 2 bottles per day plus the full bleed beforehand. Thats only about 30 bucks.

So all I have to worry about are track fees. And gas. And motel. BTW the Super 8 in Willows is cheeeep for a reason.


I had smoke billowing out of the front wheel wells and was just getting ready to pop the trunk and pull out the fire extinguisher.Get yourself some for-real spindle ducts and you'll be down about 150 degrees. Add fans like I did and you'll lose another 100-150. The SRT ducts are better than the RT but they still aren't for the serious. Kinda sorta sounds like you might want to do some sort of better pad, too.


Just started my new job and I am looking forward to getting back on the track and turning some laps with you guys.YEAH! Congrats man. Great to hear it![/quote]

Ron380
09-26-2008, 01:00 PM
OK and you guys are wondering why **** is flying off your car and you have dents showing up in the body? Go ask your wife to smack you in the head, please.


TTMR's Maggie is the one with all the "issues"... :mrgreen:

Oh, and neither of us are married, either! :Na_Na_Na_Na:

ylwnana
09-26-2008, 06:35 PM
has anyone seen the new coilover set up from kw? its called the "clubsport". a 3 way adjustable system with a msrp of $3000.00 .

TTMR
09-26-2008, 06:45 PM
OK and you guys are wondering why **** is flying off your car and you have dents showing up in the body? Go ask your wife to smack you in the head, please.
Hey, the vent came out on flat ground with street tires, and the dents in the roof, well some of them might be from that, but not all.

You think I could afford to race if I weren't single?:roll:
HEHE

Bud
09-26-2008, 06:48 PM
has anyone seen the new coilover set up from kw? its called the "clubsport". a 3 way adjustable system with a msrp of $3000.00 .

I just called KW America about them and they have them for LX's. Part #35227806. Here is the info from the website:

Performance setup for the racetrack
• Dampers in compression and rebound forces independently adjustable
• Use of high performance linear race springs
• Additional available with racing top mounts
• TÜV approval possible depending on the specification

Ron380
09-26-2008, 08:10 PM
has anyone seen the new coilover set up from kw? its called the "clubsport". a 3 way adjustable system with a msrp of $3000.00 .

Sounds nice, but kinda out of my price range! :wink:

ylwnana
09-26-2008, 10:07 PM
if the msrp is 3k they will prob go for closer to 2500.

Frozen_
09-27-2008, 05:20 PM
so Matt whats your final brake setup/tires? if you dont mind sharing

MattRobertson
09-27-2008, 05:43 PM
so Matt whats your final brake setup/tires? if you dont mind sharing
Not at all.

Brakes are a sort of hybrid system I've come up with via trial and error over time:
Wilwood BSL6 6-piston front calipers (ToddTCE's Stage 1 kit, basically)
SRT-8 front rotors
Wilwood Polymatrix H front pads
ToddTCE's Wilwood Stage 2 kit in the rear
Porterfield R-4 rear pads
Fan-powered brake (spindle-feed) ducts in front.
Wilwood 570 fluid
Fresh fluid fully bled thru before day start and quickee bleeds to the outer sides in between each track run. On a milder track like Thunder Hill you can skip a session but whether you can see bubbles or not you should bleed.The setup above seems to be wearing minimally (pads) and temps on the front are now probably low enough to prevent the immediate cracking I have so publicly experienced up to now. The current rotors will probably survive the rest of the season so we'll see about that immediate cracking business next year. Wilwood has the new, splendiferous W6a caliper but apparently you cannot get H pads for it, and I would definitely consider those a near-requirement on a track like Laguna Seca. Elsewhere probably not.

Tires:
The final setup is 4 Bridgestone RE-050A Pole Positions in 255/35/20. Do not try a 245/35/20 in the front. Rotate the rears to the front as wear progresses, and retire the fronts for street use (but your car will be LOWWWW) Optimal tire pressure to minimize wear and maximize performance seems to be 44-45 psi when hot. I am slowly experimenting with reducing that to see where I end up. But the above number is definitely excellent for wear and at the least 'very good' for performance and possibly 'perfect'. Still checking to see where the point is where they are underinflated.

TTMR
10-07-2008, 01:22 AM
Ok I just installed the Razors edge front strut bar, the difference is amazing. Any one thinking of road racing should give thought to this or a similar product. I'll let you guys know how it performs at the races the next time out.

Todd TCE
10-11-2008, 09:35 AM
Wilwood has the new, splendiferous W6a caliper but apparently you cannot get H pads for it, and I would definitely consider those a near-requirement on a track like Laguna Seca. Elsewhere probably not.

As Matt and I spoke on the phone the other day, there are now A, B and H compounds for the W6a caliper.

Ron380
10-11-2008, 09:46 AM
^^ Nice! Thanks for the update Todd!

Oh, btw- the YellowStuff pads worked great for Mid Ohio, autocross, and daily driving! They are dusty and so they do sometimes squeek, but I can live with that for the performance they give me! :thumbs_u:

I'll be putting the stock brake pads back on for winter, when I put my 18" rims back on also.

ylwnana
10-11-2008, 02:44 PM
As Matt and I spoke on the phone the other day, there are now A, B and H compounds for the W6a caliper.
gonna def be calling you soon todd!!

MattRobertson
10-11-2008, 04:17 PM
As Matt and I spoke on the phone the other day, there are now A, B and H compounds for the W6a caliper.That is big news, Todd. H pads are the winners in my book and having them now completes the W6a as the performance caliper of choice for these cars.

TTMR
10-11-2008, 06:28 PM
Ooooo Baby, I want some! Todd, I know we spoke about this before, how can I determine if these babies will clear my AWD 18s?

Ron380
11-09-2008, 09:25 AM
Fire-suppression system information added to first post!

MattRobertson
11-09-2008, 03:26 PM
Quick note on tire pressures. Its 36 cold to get you to about 45 psi. Then you bleed out to 43 or 44 after your first run. 43 psi worked fine at Buttonwillow so consider that the new hot setting for the Bridgestones I run. I will test 35 psi this weekend at Thunder Hill. If its a hot day be sure to check after each run as in the afternoon at Buttonwillow I had to take out a lot of air to make up for the heat.

forcefedjunkie
11-25-2008, 04:40 PM
You mentioned the Aeroforce gauge in your initial post. When I run the SRT8 at Mid-Ohio I use this gauge to also watch lateral acceleration, yaw (body roll), and braking parameters such as brake pressure, brake velocity, and brake travel. As I mod the suspension and brakes I can see the performance imporvements.

Todd

Ron380
11-25-2008, 05:00 PM
Good points Todd! If you really want to get serious about dialing-in your car for the track, more information is better!! :thumbs_u:

I highly recommend adding something like the Aeroforce Guages, or Dash Hawk, etc. :wink:

MattRobertson
11-25-2008, 05:13 PM
interesting you mention brake pressure. I have found that to be a worthless reading. Its ALWAYS at 195.xx bars or whatever. When I forgot to tighten one of my bleeders properly and it shook loose, I saw 195.xx maintain constant as I pressed the pedal to the floor (and squirted fluid all over my back wheel. That was fun to clean up). Bottom line is the value reported by the system will not tell me when I have a line pressure failure and so I stopped using it.

In other news:

The Porterfield R4 pads worked great but were leaving smears of material on the rear rotors, which in turn was causing one hell of a shake when braking hard at speed. At least thats what we think was happening. The solution I am testing at Laguna Seca next week is using Wilwood 'B' track pads in back. Thats a 0.63 or so pad. LOTS of new torque in the back and it may be a disaster, or a blessing. We'll see. Of all the places I could experiment with brakes, Laguna is not my first choice, but ... those are the brakes.

:bahdumcha:
Thank you. Thank you. I'll be here
every Thursday from 9 until closing.

Ron380
11-25-2008, 07:38 PM
:doh: ... ouch.

Maybe you could test the new brakes at your local mall after they close. The little rent-a-cop honda with the light bar could never catch that Magnum!! :pepper: :racing:


:mrgreen:

MattRobertson
11-25-2008, 08:06 PM
I was actually playing around in a deserted parking lot at Fort Ord - a closed military base where things are pretty thrashed. It was *right* off of a public road so I didn't want to get too woogedy as Marina PD patrols the area pretty closely. *really* grippy pads. Really really.

Ron380
11-25-2008, 11:21 PM
Really grippy? :mrgreen: :pepper: A little hard on the tires, though? :wink:







:swinger: <- WTH it that?! LOL! New Smiley! :chickdance:

krcossin
11-26-2008, 01:06 PM
Not at all.


Brakes are a sort of hybrid system I've come up with via trial and error over time:

Wilwood BSL6 6-piston front calipers (ToddTCE's Stage 1 kit, basically)
SRT-8 front rotors
Wilwood Polymatrix H front pads
ToddTCE's Wilwood Stage 2 kit in the rear
Porterfield R-4 rear pads
Fan-powered brake (spindle-feed) ducts in front.
Wilwood 570 fluid
Fresh fluid fully bled thru before day start and quickee bleeds to the outer sides in between each track run. On a milder track like Thunder Hill you can skip a session but whether you can see bubbles or not you should bleed.
The setup above seems to be wearing minimally (pads) and temps on the front are now probably low enough to prevent the immediate cracking I have so publicly experienced up to now. The current rotors will probably survive the rest of the season so we'll see about that immediate cracking business next year. Wilwood has the new, splendiferous W6a caliper but apparently you cannot get H pads for it, and I would definitely consider those a near-requirement on a track like Laguna Seca. Elsewhere probably not.

Tires:
The final setup is 4 Bridgestone RE-050A Pole Positions in 255/35/20. Do not try a 245/35/20 in the front. Rotate the rears to the front as wear progresses, and retire the fronts for street use (but your car will be LOWWWW) Optimal tire pressure to minimize wear and maximize performance seems to be 44-45 psi when hot. I am slowly experimenting with reducing that to see where I end up. But the above number is definitely excellent for wear and at the least 'very good' for performance and possibly 'perfect'. Still checking to see where the point is where they are underinflated.


This is must read for us that one day want to auto cross.
I appreciate everyone's insight on this subject, little by little I will get my car track worthy, first I need to take a driver's education course. Similar to what I did BEFORE I took delivery of my boat, took boater's safety course to understand the laws and the ability to ask and learn as much as possible, then refine and perfect later.

MattRobertson
11-26-2008, 01:21 PM
krcossin,

I think for autocrossing your braking demands are going to be a *lot* less than the road course racing I do. Just for starters you aren't ever going to be hauling the car down from 125 mph on a downgrade (!) so you can negotiate a hairpin. But thats Turn 2 at Laguna Seca.

For an autocrosser you may be able to get away with just pads and fluid on your stock brakes. Plus my standard-issue recommendation of stainless lines, which are just a feelgood, but they feel good. I would try that first unless you are absolutely serious about running your car and your experience shows you have a braking deficiency. You will know it when you have it, so its OK to wait for it as long as you find out on a closed autocross course... which is usually a giant parking lot where you can't hit anything.

Certainly driver ed is a good thing, but I believe you can very likely get that at an autocross directly. I'm not sure I would pay for a Bob Bondurant/Skip Barber kind of thing where its a couple grand for a couple days. Here in CA/NV I would recommend A group in Hooked On Driving. They go over the whole classroom bit from what an apex is and why you care, to contact patch etc. Then an in-car instructor goes around the track with you and feeds you instructions in real time. That will run you between $280 and $340 for a day, plus wear and tear and gas on your car.

There is probably a track vendor out there in your area that does the same thing.

Todd TCE
11-26-2008, 09:41 PM
Autocrossers: for the front calipers Matt has- Poly D pads. Nothing else comes close.

http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/images/D_T_BP10_BP20.gif

Having worked for nine years in the driving school business, both for Russell (Laguna) and Bondurant (Sears Point and Phoenix) I can tell you that this money, while seemingly costly, will prove well spent if you apply it correctly. If you sole purpose is open wheel cars then do Skippy or Russell, if you do sedans a three day at Bondo will sharpen your skills immensly. There's a reason guys like Stewart, Earnhardt, Vahsholtz, Wallace and others from various forms of sedan racing do this.

TTMR
11-26-2008, 10:29 PM
My stock brakes have proven to be more than good for autocrossing. They never get a chance to get hot and they have enough "whoa" to lock my slicks.

cbutler32
11-27-2008, 12:43 AM
This is must read for us that one day want to auto cross.
I appreciate everyone's insight on this subject, little by little I will get my car track worthy, first I need to take a driver's education course. Similar to what I did BEFORE I took delivery of my boat, took boater's safety course to understand the laws and the ability to ask and learn as much as possible, then refine and perfect later.

or you can spend a day with Matt or me?
and not pay a dime...
Happy Thanksgiving!
Sincerely,
cbutler32

forcefedjunkie
11-27-2008, 01:01 PM
interesting you mention brake pressure. I have found that to be a worthless reading. Its ALWAYS at 195.xx bars or whatever. When I forgot to tighten one of my bleeders properly and it shook loose, I saw 195.xx maintain constant as I pressed the pedal to the floor (and squirted fluid all over my back wheel. That was fun to clean up). Bottom line is the value reported by the system will not tell me when I have a line pressure failure and so I stopped using it.



Is this on the Aeroforce gauge? If yes then Chrysler must be using a different PID for the 05 LX than the later years. If the PID is supported it will change as you apply the brakes.

Todd

MattRobertson
11-27-2008, 03:06 PM
No its the DashHawk. But I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if it was a different PID for different years. That happens a lot with this platform. Just for starters there are two different PID's for tranny temp. Which one works depends on your model year.

So you have working brake pressure? Crap. Sucks to be me I guess.

RobAGD
11-27-2008, 03:33 PM
Matt that is common depending on year, it is a shame too Ken and I worked on that quite a bit, the steering angle seems to work decent .

SSI4 Matt :) 0-1500 psi sending unit, AF, Oil Temp, PS Temp on a small WinXp pocket computer :)

-Robert

Shelby
11-27-2008, 05:50 PM
Autocrossers: for the front calipers Matt has- Poly D pads. Nothing else comes close.

http://www.tceperformanceproducts.com/images/D_T_BP10_BP20.gif



Todd you wouldn't happen to know what the stock RT pads look like on this graph to help with the differences?

FlyByU
11-27-2008, 08:38 PM
Great thread.

forcefedjunkie
12-04-2008, 12:11 AM
No its the DashHawk. But I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if it was a different PID for different years. That happens a lot with this platform. Just for starters there are two different PID's for tranny temp. Which one works depends on your model year.

So you have working brake pressure? Crap. Sucks to be me I guess.

Yes, the Aeroforce gauge supports quite a bit more than the DashHawk on these cars. For example it'll allow you to manually turn on/off the radiator fans, turn off the ESP system, and reset the transmission controller. It also supports target and current gear, TCC status, yaw (body roll), lateral acceleration amoung the several braking parameters.

Todd

Todd TCE
12-04-2008, 02:35 PM
Todd you wouldn't happen to know what the stock RT pads look like on this graph to help with the differences?

No sir I don't.

stevesrt8
12-04-2008, 03:27 PM
Yes, the Aeroforce gauge supports quite a bit more than the DashHawk on these cars. For example it'll allow you to manually turn on/off the radiator fans, turn off the ESP system, and reset the transmission controller. It also supports target and current gear, TCC status, yaw (body roll), lateral acceleration amoung the several braking parameters.
Todd

Sorry to correct, but yaw is not body roll.

forcefedjunkie
12-06-2008, 01:01 PM
Sorry to correct, but yaw is not body roll.

Well, if you're talking airplanes then it would be roll, but Chrysler calls it yaw and it's referring to body roll. It's indicating in degrees how much the body of the car is "tilting" to the passenger or driver's side. A set of coilovers on our SRT8 reduced this "yaw" by about 5 degrees on average at Mid Ohio.

Todd

MattRobertson
12-07-2008, 12:18 AM
Quick update to the Wilwood braking info: I am now running Wilwood 'B' track pads on the back and 'H' pads on the front. On paper thats a total over-bias to the rear ... but it worked great. No noticeable increase in ABS engagement. Actually... Hardly any ABS engagement at all on Laguna a few days ago.

Rotor temps were roughly even, front and back (remember I am cooling the fronts with force-fed air when thinking on the temps). Rear rotors informally measured at about 550 degrees after a paddock cool-down.

Put on a brand-new set of front rotors for this day. My old ones had lasted 4 days before developing a small all-the-way-thru crack in one, which killed it. 4 days is a record.

The new rotors did not crack. Nothing visible. Thats a first for new rotors on Laguna.

stevesrt8
12-07-2008, 09:02 AM
Well, if you're talking airplanes then it would be roll, but Chrysler calls it yaw and it's referring to body roll. It's indicating in degrees how much the body of the car is "tilting" to the passenger or driver's side. A set of coilovers on our SRT8 reduced this "yaw" by about 5 degrees on average at Mid Ohio.
Todd

Sorry again, but you're not even close. No matter what vehicle you're referring to, it's motion around its VERTICAL axis. No other definitions apply, and Chrysler uses it to determine if the intended course is different from the actual course. It's a calculated value from things like steering wheel position, speed and lateral G's.

Body roll is not yaw.



Imagine three lines running through an airplane (or auto) and intersecting at right angles at the airplane's center of gravity.


Rotation around the front-to-back axis is called roll.
Rotation around the side-to-side axis is called pitch.
Rotation around the vertical axis is called yaw.
http://www.nasm.si.edu/exhibitions/gal109/NEWHTF/images/HTFPRY.GIF

Steve Levin
12-07-2008, 07:30 PM
To clarify what it the most confusing image ever of explaining movement, you have to realize that the lines/arrows indicate the axis around which the motion is defined.

Steve

MattRobertson
12-07-2008, 09:17 PM
Isn't the rear wheels slewing around as you unintentionally drift a corner yaw? Thats how I always understood it. The ESP system senses yaw and acts accordingly. So if you can read yaw somewhere, I'll venture a guess thats what its used for.

"Body roll" would be the roll axis and pitch would be stomping on the accelerator and having the front end lift, or the nose diving when decelerating. Hence the term "pitching forward".

Ron380
12-07-2008, 09:25 PM
Oohhhh... we're getting sooo close to explaining this... :banghead:

So here's my shot at it:

YAW = the back end trying to pass the front end. The direction the car is pointing is different than the direction of travel. Most easily seen on an icy road...

ROLL = trying to run a slalom course with sloppy suspension. As you make each turn, the body "leans" further to the side, away from the turn.

PITCH = Up and down movement of the nose/tail. Front end "pitches up" during hard acceleration, then "dives down" during hard braking.


How's that? :beerchug: :thumbs_u:

(Where's TTMR when I need him... he's a pilot, too!)

glhs837
12-07-2008, 10:54 PM
Exactly, impale the car on a pin, from top to bottom, through the CG (where the sesnor lies in the console, from what I know) like a bug on a display, and spin it, thats yaw. A spin, as we more commonly know it. Roll, is just that rotation on a pin stuck from front bumper to rear, lengthwise, like a an animal on a rottisere. A victory roll in in aircraft is roll.

RobAGD
12-08-2008, 01:12 PM
The Yaw sensor in our car is right about where you elbow sits on the center console as I recall.

-R

forcefedjunkie
12-08-2008, 08:56 PM
Ok, I know the definition of yaw, pitch, and roll. It's just that from my observations of watching the yaw values on the gauge, it seems to apply to what is commonly called roll. For example, if you rock the car back forth by pushing up/down on the frame of an open window, the yaw value will read a range from say -5 to +5 degrees. By definition, the car is moving in the wrong axis to be reading a yaw value when you do this. If you go around a corner and the car tilts towards the outside of this corner, the yaw value will go up proportionally with the amount of tilt. It would seem by definition, that the only time you should see yaw would be when drifting or sliding where the car is pointed in a different direction than travel. This is why I came to the conclusion made earlier. When we added coilovers, the maximum yaw values were reduced, which could be detected from the driver's seat as well. The car was not rolling or tilting as much around corners. Anyway, I'm not arguing definitions, just stating what I've observed.

Todd

forcefedjunkie
12-08-2008, 08:59 PM
Ok, I know the definition of yaw, pitch, and roll. It's just that from my observations of watching the yaw values on the gauge, it seems to apply to what is commonly called roll. For example, if you rock the car back forth by pushing up/down on the frame of an open window, the yaw value will read a range from say -5 to +5 degrees. By definition, the car is moving in the wrong axis to be reading a yaw value when you do this. If you go around a corner and the car tilts towards the outside of this corner, the yaw value will go up proportionally with the amount of tilt. It would seem by definition, that the only time you should see yaw would be when drifting or sliding where the car is pointed in a different direction than travel. This is why I came to the conclusion made earlier. When we added coilovers, the maximum yaw values were reduced, which could be detected from the driver's seat as well. The car was not rolling or tilting as much around corners. Anyway, I'm not arguing definitions, just stating what I've observed. If you can explain this phenomenon, then I will agree with your case and change my opinion.

Todd

MattRobertson
12-08-2008, 09:36 PM
If you can explain this phenomenon, then I will agree with your case and change my opinion.


Its not that any of us have a case. Yaw is what it is. Roll is what it is. The two may be associated in some way insofar as the Dodge sensor is concerned but just because the yaw sensor is being triggered by roll in some way does not mean we have to go to Websters and get them to redefine "yaw".

For all we know Dodge decided to measure both in some way and they simply didn't share that info with anyone outside the company. Nobody anywhere has put in an independent yaw sensor to check those values, for example. It could be anything.

done
12-08-2008, 11:48 PM
Of course there is a "Yaw" sensor. Leave the ESP on and try to slide the back end out.

MattRobertson
12-09-2008, 01:46 AM
Of course there is a "Yaw" sensor. Leave the ESP on and try to slide the back end out.
Read back. That wasn't the question. Someone was saying that yaw is body roll. Since then we've all had a physics class.

stevesrt8
12-09-2008, 08:46 AM
the thing to remember is it's an integrated system. That's what Mercedes brought to the table, the first fully integrated stability control SYSTEM. It uses all kinds of sensors and factors in god knows what to make the car go where it thinks you should be going.

I wouldn't doubt for a moment that it takes body roll into account as well.

We tend to focus on little slices of what it does. And that fails to account for all the things it's considering.

Ron380
12-09-2008, 09:55 AM
the thing to remember is it's an integrated system. That's what Mercedes brought to the table, the first fully integrated stability control SYSTEM. It uses all kinds of sensors and factors in god knows what to make the car go where it thinks you should be going.

I wouldn't doubt for a moment that it takes body roll into account as well.

We tend to focus on little slices of what it does. And that fails to account for all the things it's considering.

So... are you trying to say... they did it RIGHT?! :panic: :banghead:

:Na_Na_Na_Na:

Yea, I think sometimes we get into over-analysing things a bit too much... :wink:

:mrgreen: :friday:

MattRobertson
12-18-2008, 07:20 PM
Well, I am in my not-so-very-long winter hiatus from track running (Dec 8th at Laguna was my last for the year, and I plan to go back on Jan 29 to Buttonwillow). During this extended break, I am doing a little here and there. Mostly maintenance and double-checks.

This morning I dropped my front tires off at my tire shop to have them pulled off the wheels and checked. To recap:


Bridgestone RE-050A Pole Positions, 255/35/20 size
These tires now have an LX-unprecendented six days on them. While worn they are still not down to the wear bars.
I originally tried 245/35/20 tires on the fronts. A mid-season check after two days' use showed signs of torque-cracking (which is only visible on the inside ... until the tire blows) on the fronts; a condition that comes from doing stuff like you see below (check the front passenger tire out). The rears (which were 255-width) were fine.

http://foohbar.com/magnum/ls_120802.jpg

There were two possibilities after that first test, the way I saw it: 1)the damage was related to the narrower tire width or 2) the damage was related to the abuse the tires were getting, and width was a non-issue.

Well, the front tires are fine, despite the extended use and abuse they have received. No torque cracking at all. I figure I am good for at least another day and maybe two... Hell, I haven't hit the wear bars yet.

Lesson learned here is that 245/35/20 tires may have an additional risk/wear factor in the mix. Hard to say from the supply sampled so far but I wouldn't buy another pair to see if they die the same death. I'm sticking to 255/35/20's.

Ron380
12-18-2008, 08:50 PM
Thanks for the update, Matt! :thumbs_u:

Do both sizes of that tire have the same Load Rating? I've noticed that many tires have different load ratings for different sizes, even though they're the same model of tire... something to watch out for!

TTMR
12-19-2008, 01:20 AM
Whoops, sorry I missed this one Ron!

MattRobertson
12-19-2008, 03:10 PM
Do both sizes of that tire have the same Load Rating?
Pretty close. Both are XL-rated. The 245 has a max load of 1521 lbs for an 8-9.5" rim, and the 255 is at 1609 for a 9-10.5" rim. I think the ratings are size-dependent and universal.

Ron380
12-19-2008, 04:29 PM
Hhhmmmmm..... Veedddyyy Interesting!

Has anyone else tried different width tires of the same brand, and noticed any particular (or "peculiar") differences with regard to wear, traction, etc. ?? We'll need to keep an eye out for this! *updated to first post!*

MattRobertson
12-19-2008, 05:53 PM
I've pretty much decided, after talking it over with Cam and my tire guy, to use the Bridgestone 275/30/20 Pole Position as dedicated rears rather than rotating 255's back to front like I do now. A little more meat, only a hair less diameter and should fit fine and exhibit less sidewall stress given the 275 width and 9" rim. We'll see. I really hate to screw around with something that I know is working so well... but I can't help but at least try and make it a little better.

If my tires are good for two more days' use, then that means I won't have the new ones on the track until March 20 at Infineon.

Ron380
01-28-2009, 05:45 PM
Just a quick :bump: 'cause racin' season is coming! :racing:


Well, at least, AFTER we get the roads cleared! :mrgreen:

Ron380
01-31-2009, 09:57 PM
First post updated with More Road Course Information! :mrgreen:

Grimlock
01-31-2009, 10:31 PM
So is this a good thread to start an autocrossing discussion or should I start another thread? The SCCA season begins for me tomorrow in Oakland. This will be my first time autocrossing the SRT8 so I would be happy for any tips. I am a veteran of autocrossing, so I definitely know the basics. I even used to instruct at autcross events.

Little tips like tire pressure and tire choice would be appreciated. I will be running the stock F1s probably through this season. I am running an aggresive alignment specifically for autocross as speced my Mike (DMS) of Pedders.

If I should start another tread let me know, but I figure there is probably a bunch of overlap. :racing:

TTMR
02-01-2009, 07:23 AM
I'd say stick with this one, it is very similar. I'm running a set of BFG slicks, but your stockers should be just fine. As you know the basics, just remember that you are driving a tank around the cones . Don't let the nay-sayers get to you, just go show them what the car can do! I got $h!t for racing a "school bus" untill I started bumping up the ranks. Now I'm thinking about getting some cardboard kids for the windows just to rub it in!

Ron380
02-01-2009, 10:21 AM
Hi Grimlock- I would LOVE to see your car, with your mods, running in an Auto-X! Do you have any buddies who could film it? hehe

I'm also looking forward to this season, I have the Pedders Touring Kit on and I'll be running much better tires, too! I'm also going to the EVO School in April, so that should be interesting!

Let's just keep the discussion going on this thread. If it starts to get more "specialized" to Autocross, then maybe we should start a new Topic.

Safety Fast!

X E Ryder
02-01-2009, 12:17 PM
Hey nice thread! Keep it up Ron!

Ron380
02-01-2009, 02:14 PM
Hey X E- Glad to see you're still around! Haven't heard from ya in a while!

Hope all is going well with you, have you been "on course" yet this year? Matt is way ahead of us already! I'll be going to the NJ Thunderbolt course with the LX bunch at the end of March. Really looking forward to it!

MattRobertson
02-01-2009, 04:11 PM
Well, not 'way ahead' but I'm working on it. XE... two Laguna dates for me in Feb. You got it in ya to bring the green giant out? And WELCOME BACK by the way :-)

Ron, I noticed the tire section said 40 psi on the Pole Positions... that should be 36 psi cold on a 60 degree day, with hot pressure having a 44 psi target. Recently at Buttonwillow I started at 38 to make up for the cold, and this wound up being a bad idea. It wasn't cold enough to warrant that. Problem is, you wind up spending the first session evaluating, pitting and bleeding air. for these tires, 36 is It. And I am sticking to the 255 width tires. Assuming I don't go to ... Hoosier R6 slicks.

Yes, I have been talking quite a bit to Hoosier about this application. Took awhile to get someone who would sign off on a 4400 lb tank riding on their tires safely, but once I got hold of the right guy, he was emphatic that it can safely be done. All you have to do is make up for weight with tire pressure. Hoosier thinks we may need 55 psi hot (!).

The Hoosier A6 has been mentioned. This is primarily an autocross tire. The R6 is meant for road courses and is better suited to the higher temps and lateral forces of road courses. The R6 is available in 255/40/18 and it *will* fit on an 18x8.5" Borbet TS. It is a 26" tire, too. That would put me a half inch lower than I already am, raising the spectre of dragging the rockers in a corner. I could raise the KW's an inch to solve that.

Still mulling this. I chickened out given the $2k price tag. I have like 16 track days scheduled this year and I may shave a few off to pay for this. Its the final step in terms of equipment, and perhaps the most important. I just hate to have to go to a third set of wheels.

Ron380
02-01-2009, 04:43 PM
Ron, I noticed the tire section said 40 psi on the Pole Positions...

Fixed! :thumbs_u:

TTMR
02-02-2009, 10:37 AM
55PSI would not suprise me, I had to go to 60 front 50 rear (cold) at Mid Ohio last season in my BFG slicks. I am a little over the recomended tire pressure and the load rating but when I had them pulled at the end of the year to flip them around on the wheels they still looked good inside and out. Maybe I can manage to wear them out this year and get a set of 245s.

I also got the chance to install EBC yellow stuff pads in the front yesterday, and wow they are grippy. I need to relearn to use the breaks as I'm kicking the ABS much sooner. Hopefully after I install the rears I have sitting at home I will get a little better brake bias.

MattRobertson
02-02-2009, 11:02 AM
yeah that sounds like a bias issue. And if I were you I'd put the rears on before tracking again. You've got so much grip in the front you've probably elevated your rotor and caliper temps quite a bit in the front.

TTMR
02-02-2009, 11:30 AM
yeah that sounds like a bias issue. *snip* You've got so much grip in the front you've probably elevated your rotor and caliper temps quite a bit in the front.
Oh yes I have, a short drive and I couldn't touch the front calipers. Rears will be on in a day or two, just no time yesterday to pull the other two wheels before the game.

Ron380
02-02-2009, 11:35 AM
Hey Duncan, glad to hear you got the Yellow's! I haven't put mine back on yet, I'll probably do that early to mid-March. Also going to bleed the brakes then, too!

Those Yellow Stuff pads are dusty. If you're brakes start squeaking, just give them a good, hard stop or two (60-10mph, not-quite-ABS-inducing) and that will help clean them off. The "official" bedding procedure helps too, after you get all 4 on.

TTMR
02-02-2009, 12:43 PM
Well I'm glad that I have another set of stock pads, one of my right side fronts had cracked. I think that it's a safe bet that it happend at Mid Ohio.

Ron380
02-02-2009, 12:46 PM
I would not take that bet- you're probably right! You said the brakes were "shuddering" near the end there...

MattRobertson
02-02-2009, 03:53 PM
You guys should talk to Porterfield about having them make an R-4 pad for the stock LX caliper. They did it for me with my brakes. I use a 4 1/2" stock car type pad that they had to machine the bridge bolt fitting off of, which they did no charge. They say, if you check their catalog, that they will make a pad provided you give them backing plate info. If you just give them a set of old plates that would probably be enough. Give them a call.

FYI the R-4 material is about a 0.5x friction coefficient.. but its good to extreme temps. 1300+ degrees. I'm thinking the cracked Yellow Stuff pad couldn't take the heat. I've never much liked how cagey EBC is about that pad's performance. They don't tell you squat about its temp range or how it holds up at high temps. R-4 is pretty well known and has a good rep.

The brake shuddering could be cracked rotors. Mine start to shudder when they start to crack. Gets worse until they crack all the way thru at some point and I replace them.

Ron380
02-02-2009, 04:31 PM
Matt- TTMR cracked his STOCK pad, that's why he got the Yellows. ;)

MattRobertson
02-02-2009, 05:13 PM
ah. never mind ;-)

TTMR
02-02-2009, 06:25 PM
An old plate huh? Guess I better go dig that craced one out of the trash just in case!

Grimlock
02-02-2009, 06:46 PM
After autocrossing in Oakland yesterday it was very obvious that the stock tires are not up to the task. If I didn't know better I would have guessed I was driving on a wet course. I only had one other car in my class and it was a later 4th Gen Camaro with full race prep. I think he said he was at 3100lbs, he had racing rims, Hoosiers, etc. So while I expected to loose, I hoped to do better than I did. I had to get used to driving the car constantly drifting. My best time was just about 50 seconds, while I think the Camaro was doing 45 seconds. My goal was to get under 50 seconds, which I didn't quite make. With out a doubt my car was the heaviest car at the event.

The material they used to do the lot at the Oakland coliseum is impossible to describe....but lets just say they grip is BAD. Clearly this course favors the super light nimble cars (Miata anyone) even more than the typical course.

I have years of autocross experience, so while I expect I will improve driving the Charger I don't think I can get *that* much faster with the weight and lack of grip of the F1s. Of course other than the SRT Driving Experience, I haven't competed in autocrossing in about 8 years. So I may have a little rust, but I did win the event at the SRT Driving Experience over the summer so I don't think I am *that* rusty.

I would kill to get a set of R1 compound tires on the car and see what I could do. I really hope someone starts making one that will clear the brakes on the SRT8 and won't cost me $4K for a set of custom rims!

I may get a camera mount and camcorder in the next few months, but I need to budget for it. When I do, I can post links for you guys. I will just have to bleep out the colorful words.

Ron380
02-02-2009, 08:48 PM
Glad to hear you got out already buddy! We still have too much ice/snow/cold outside to think about running for a while yet... (and it's snowing right now!)

TTMR is running the BFG's, and he runs rings around me! (see post #1-3 in this thread). I will be trying out Sumitomo HTR Z3's, 245/45/18 on my stock rims this year, I'll let you know how they (we) do! :)

MattRobertson
02-02-2009, 09:22 PM
Grimlock,

My take on autocrossing is these cars are just too big to be able to do much of anything in that environment. Its too tight for them and their strength (versus weaknesses that can be overcome), which is big acceleration regardless of the incline/grade, is completely gone on those low-speed courses, leaving you with just a list of deficiencies.

You go to a road course environment where you can get up a good head of steam and you can really surprise the crap out of people ... after admittedly doing some brake and suspension work. But I think the real issue is simply one of weight and size. You can fight physics only so much.

Just my take on it. I know there are guys out there autocrossing so maybe its me not driving the thing right.

Grimlock
02-02-2009, 09:35 PM
Grimlock,

My take on autocrossing is these cars are just too big to be able to do much of anything in that environment. Its too tight for them and their strength (versus weaknesses that can be overcome), which is big acceleration regardless of the incline/grade, is completely gone on those low-speed courses, leaving you with just a list of deficiencies.

You go to a road course environment where you can get up a good head of steam and you can really surprise the crap out of people ... after admittedly doing some brake and suspension work. But I think the real issue is simply one of weight and size. You can fight physics only so much.

Just my take on it. I know there are guys out there autocrossing so maybe its me not driving the thing right.


You are totally correct on the above. Autocrossing favors the small light car and our local (Bay Area) course seems to exacerbate this even more by running on the extra slick surface in Oakland. So I know I won't ever be the car to dominate my class on a national level, but I was hoping to at least be somewhat competitive at a local level. I used to win my class every year in the past, so I figured I could make up for it by being an awesome driver.

From my experience yesterday, the driver cannot make up for the lack of grip (with the other issues the Charger has.) If I were able to run R compound tires, I think I might be somewhat competitive locally....although I am sure I would be an underdog.

I would track my car, but I cannot afford to write it off. And so I am unwilling to risk it. And of course, the Charger is definitely not an optimal track car either. I could buy a fully prepared 944 Turbo for $10K that would destroy any Charger that is close to street legal.

So I am really just trying to have fun with my car autocrossing. Obviously the closer to competitive I get the more fun it will be. Or I can just spend $4K and buy an early Miata to autocross and actually be competitive....

MattRobertson
02-02-2009, 09:41 PM
Yup. A project 944 would be my take on it as well. That or a 914 if I wanted to spend more but get really zany with a 911 motor, fender flares, wide tires etc. The full fake 914/6 treatment. I saw a 944 Turbo on sale about a year ago. PCA-member owned, totally set up for track. Had everything you could want. Guards Red, even. Was like 16 grand and would have been a spectacular buy. But I had opted out of that realm in favor of making the Magnum a project car and thats that. Plus I have a 2-car garage, one of which is dedicated to being a workshop, own three cars and my driveway is 1 lane wide. If I go to 4 cars I'll die from sheer annoyance.

TTMR
02-02-2009, 09:57 PM
Well take your pick, I'm competative in the Western Ohio region. Infact if I was a member I would have won the class in that region. Track down some R compound tires and you will be suprised what you can do!

Grimlock
02-02-2009, 10:04 PM
Well take your pick, I'm competative in the Western Ohio region. Infact if I was a member I would have won the class in that region. Track down some R compound tires and you will be suprised what you can do!


The issue is finding a R compound tire that will fit the stock 20" rims and clear the brakes. I don't want to have to buy some custom rims or that gets pricey. I seriously doubt I can be competitive with Camaros that are similarly powered but 1000lbs lighter and are running Hoosiers.

And on the Porsches, the 914 with a nice 6 is a great option but it would cost much more than a prepared 944 Turbo (951). The 914 would also be a much superior autocross car overall.

But the car to get is actually a 944 S2 or 968 with the M030 option. Those came from the factory with coil-overs and are cars that can dominate the SCCA. Or at least they used to....the rules may have changed in recent years.

Ron380
02-02-2009, 10:14 PM
When I got my suspension upgraded, the shop had a Nissan 240Z for sale that would be an ideal autocross/track car... decent price, too!

... and no, I'm NOT gonna tell you where it was! :Na_Na_Na_Na:

LOL!

Gabe
02-02-2009, 10:19 PM
When I got my suspension upgraded, the shop had a Nissan 240Z for sale that would be an ideal autocross/track car... decent price, too!

... and no, I'm NOT gonna tell you where it was! :Na_Na_Na_Na:

LOL!

You have YET TO SHOW PICS of this "upgraded" suspension you speak of ..... WE WANT PICS :mrgreen:


http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee265/gpwebman/funny%20pics/BenStiller_Doit.gif http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee265/gpwebman/funny%20pics/BenStiller_Doit.gif http://i229.photobucket.com/albums/ee265/gpwebman/funny%20pics/BenStiller_Doit.gif


:mrgreen: :Na_Na_Na_Na:

Ron380
02-02-2009, 10:27 PM
Well, before I was just ignoring you...

Now I'm blowing you off on purpose because I like to see your face turn red like that! :Na_Na_Na_Na:


j/k! Let me put fresh batteries in the camera and see what I can get with the car in the garage. The weather has not been cooperating AT ALL for taking good pics o' stuff. I mean- CLEAN pics o' stuff!

:mrgreen:

Steve Levin
02-03-2009, 06:47 PM
I would track my car, but I cannot afford to write it off. And so I am unwilling to risk it. And of course, the Charger is definitely not an optimal track car either. I could buy a fully prepared 944 Turbo for $10K that would destroy any Charger that is close to street legal.

I think there's a lot of wisdom in that. It's a lot of fun to honk around in the big old car with tons of power, but in the end, it's just never going to be particularly fast on the true end of the fast scale.

Especially in big, heavy cars, you can spend a lot of money to get what really is only a small amount of speed. And still, someone in a stock Corvette wll just walk away from you. Plus as mentioned a lot of much less expensive alternatives :)

I think if you take the stock car out and drive it at 7/10ths, well inside the limit, you by far get the best bang for the buck. And reduce the risks of tracking it to the point where I think it's reasonably acceptable.

Steve

Jontoad
02-03-2009, 09:42 PM
anyone tried Nitto NT05's? 200AA street/track tire.
http://postrelease.com/asset/view/277.jpg

they have a lot of sizes out already 275/40/20 is available already.

looks like 255/45/20, 255/35/20, and 275/35/20 are coming in a month or two. i get Nittos at cost since i work at discount tire so i should be able to pick them up pretty cheap.

I'm thinking I'm gonna pick up 275/40/20's for all four corners. or maybe 275/35/20.

http://www.nittotire.com/#index%2Etire%2Ent05%2Esizes

Ron380
02-03-2009, 10:34 PM
Hey Jontoad- This thread is all about gathering information and sharing it with everyone! Try 'em out and let us know how they do! :thumbs_u:

Thanks!

Gabe
02-04-2009, 12:01 AM
anyone tried Nitto NT05's? 200AA street/track tire.
http://postrelease.com/asset/view/277.jpg

they have a lot of sizes out already 275/40/20 is available already.

looks like 255/45/20, 255/35/20, and 275/35/20 are coming in a month or two. i get Nittos at cost since i work at discount tire so i should be able to pick them up pretty cheap.

I'm thinking I'm gonna pick up 275/40/20's for all four corners. or maybe 275/35/20.

http://www.nittotire.com/#index%2Etire%2Ent05%2Esizes



SEE HERE (http://www.chargerforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98965)

MattRobertson
02-04-2009, 12:08 AM
On those Nittos, bear in mind that I used a 245/35/20 Pole Position and got nasty torque cracking in the sidewall, while the 255/35/20 has been golden and lasted so far 8 track days, and it'll be good for #9 on Laguna Feb 12. It'll be done after #9 but still... 9 track days is damn good for tires. My point is be careful about your tire choices. The sidewall on the 245 was a tad short, and we've seen how almighty stretched out the 255 gets (Steve is the passenger in that infamous pic where it looks like its coming off the rim.

When talking to Hoosier recently, their take on sidewalls was that a little too much was better than too little. You adjust with tire pressure. I'm thinking the 255/45/20 might be optimal. But the 255/35/20 is a size I've found to work very, very well. I was gonna try the 275/30/20 Bridgestone but chickened out due to sidewall height. The 275/35/20 sure is enticing... How's that for indecisive?

Jontoad
02-04-2009, 12:17 AM
SEE HERE (http://www.chargerforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=98965)

yea, i saw that, but I'm not wondering about street manners. i want to know if they are good at the track. but i guess they are cause most of the reviews I'm reading on them put them just under R compounds in performance. apparently they don't over heat and get squirmy either. i think im gonna get em. now i just have to decide if i want to wait for 275/35/20s to come out or order up the 275/40/20s...

MattRobertson
02-04-2009, 12:30 AM
I just got back from a google parade on the NT-05. Looks like a killer tire. Damn near exactly what we are looking for if the reviews hold up. Haven't found anyone racing a school bus so no telling for sure yet.

Jontoad
02-14-2009, 09:49 PM
I just got back from a google parade on the NT-05. Looks like a killer tire. Damn near exactly what we are looking for if the reviews hold up. Haven't found anyone racing a school bus so no telling for sure yet.

they just became available in my computer at work so i put in an order for them. the price for them is a steal compared to the potenza's too.

Grimlock
02-14-2009, 11:00 PM
Damn, I thought those Nittos were an R-compound for a second. I guess the wait goes on. I guess these will make a great combo-tire.

Ron380
02-15-2009, 09:47 AM
What I can find so far, it doesn't look like they have a size I can use yet... I'm using my stock rims this year and they're only 7.5" wide... I'll stick with my plan for this year, and maybe next year do new rims and tires!

Cibalo
02-15-2009, 06:24 PM
wow this has been a very educational read, although I'm still a little lost on things. I did a 2 day Performance Driving Experience at Texas World Speedway (2.9 mile road course) back in August and had a blast. I was running F1 supercar 245/45/20 front and toyo proxie 4 275/40/20 on the rear and a pressure of 40 psi cold. Since I didn't know anything about running on a road course I asked my friend who is an instructor out there to look at my tires after my first few runs and he thought that the wear band looked in the right place. I have also taken my car to the drag strip for a few runs but I found the road course to be more enjoyable.

My car is my daily driver but I'd like to take it out maybe 3-4 weekends a year on the road course. After reading all of the info here I'd like to try to summerize what I would need to do to my car to get it better set up for the track while still maintaining the steetability of it.

1) Upgrade suspension. I'm looking at doing the full Pedders Track II system as they are looking for a car in my area for training at a discounted price.

2) Upgrade brake system. I have plane SRT rotors right now but my understanding is the slotted ones are the best and that I should stay away from the cross drilled. Is this correct? Are the SRT brembo calipers susficcient enough and it sounds like the ERG yellow stuff pads are good. Has anyone heard or tried this pad

Axxis/Pbr

- Special Ceramic/Kevlar Formulation
- HIgh performance applications
- Extreme fade resistance
- Exceptional performance ability
- Non-asbestos, low metal content
- Provides incredibly long life and extreme resistance to heat

I am also assuming I should upgrade to some baided steel lines as well.

3) Tires. The stines seemed to have gotten some good reviews and that a 255/35 or 275/35 is the best setup. I currently have some 245/45/20 Invo up front and the 275/40/20 on the back. (long story about that setup). The new Nitro NT05 look like a good setup as well though.

4) Front strut brace is needed

5) How necessary is it to upgrade the oil and transmission cooling at this point? When I ran in August oil temp got up to 275 and then I slowed down to cool it off.

I figure it may take me the better part of a year to put this setup together if I have it right, your input is much needed. The track is only a few miles from my house and I've started working corners there and trading that work for track time.

I have a bunch of pictures from my days at the track here http://tinypic.com/useralbum.php?ua=EGrm6Kv%2Fm8ZJ4csQC60Hnw%3D%3D if you'd like to look through them.

Ron380
02-15-2009, 06:57 PM
Great post, good questions, too! ;) That was a good idea having your instructor check your tire wear! :thumbs_u:

Well: The Pedder's Track 2 is the top-line, full-bore suspension upgrade! If you can get in on the training deal- GO FOR IT!!! The Track 2 is out of my budget right now, but I did get the Touring Kit on mine and it's been great for street driving. I'll be out on a track March 30th...

The front Shock Tower Brace WILL help! I have the Razor's Edge bar, but I've seen good reviews on some others, too.

Depending on how hard you run at your track (and your braking technique), you may be OK using the Yellow Stuff pads in your current setup. That's what I'm running this year, but I don't charge too hard into the corners (yet). I tend to brake a little early and easy, then punch the gas on the way out! I'm not familiar with the Axxis pads, sorry. DO keep an eye on your brake FLUID! I've upgraded to the Wilwood 570, it has a higher boiling-point than the regular fluid. I have not upgraded to stainless lines yet, but that's on the "future mod list".

Keep an eye on your tires and see what works well for you. I'm still experimenting myself...

As for the cooling, check out the link in the first post to MattR's "Frankencooler" setups. Keep in mind- he drives that thing like an ICBM on wheels! You might not need the full setup like he does.

I WILL be adding the Power Steering cooler he refers to, later this Spring, I've already blown one power steering pump... oops. If you've already seen your oil temps climb to 275- I'd strongly recommend adding an oil cooler! Again, see MattR's setup.

Congrats on becoming a worker at the track! :beerchug: That's what will keep this sport going, is supporting our tracks with our time! You can't run a race if you don't have the staff to run it! Great way to learn more about the sport and meet more people, too.

Safety Fast!

Cibalo
02-15-2009, 07:39 PM
Ron, thanks for the knowledge. I found those brake pads when I asked a member about his rotors and he turned me onto a company called cquence who manufacuture their own rotors and have a few racing teams that use their stuff. Here is a quote from their website

Since we began in 2003, we have been moving up the performance rotor market place with innovative technology and designs. The process begins by selecting only the highest quality, OEM approved brake rotors. We insure that surface quality, vent designs, and finished surfaces meet or exceed strict standards. Each application is drawn to scale and precisely CNC machined to achieve maximum quality and performance.

The quoted me a price of $450 for all 4 wheels on my SRT and when things are that cheap I tend to raise a red flag, but it is still intriguing.

I am still trying to work on my line at the track and being smoother rather than just on the brake and gas the whole time. I figure once I learn where to start braking and turning in I'll be able to pick up speed later.

I'll check out the links on the oil and PS pump coolers as well.

MattRobertson
02-15-2009, 07:56 PM
Cibalo, I'll add my two cents to Ron's answers.

1. Pedders Track II is better than RT stock for sure, and probably better than SRT stock, although SRT stock is mighty good for the money (which is zero in your case). I am assuming the Track II suspension is the sways, shocks and all bushings. For the kind of money that you are going to spend on it though, and considering your starting point, I'd look elsewhere before you upgrade an already upgraded suspension. Also bear in mind that a lof of the older-school guys - including a lot of the SRT crowd - use KW V2's for coilovers and Hotchkis sway bars. The Pedders shocks and sways may be better than this but that hasn't been conclusively proven to me personally. Certainly the bushings improve performance, but at the cost of some ride quality. When I hear that the shocks and sways give a better performance ride while at the same time giving a more comfortable ride thanks to matched componentry, I worry that there is no such thing as a free lunch.

2. Brake upgrades: You have an adequate system with the Brembo's, stock. Use the dusty stock pads. They are fine for the track. However they are expensive. Try and find them cheap, or go to something like Porterfield R-4 pads, if they can be had from Porterfield. Otherwise there is little track experience in the LX world beyond the EBC Yellow Stuff pads, which have been found to be accpetable but nobody seems to have anything quantitative to say about them being superior to the stockers. As for the rotors, the plain rotors were recalled by Dodge via TSB and replaced free with the slotted rotors. Run your plains for as long as you can, then buy new slotted rotors. They are presently $105 each which is cheap for rotors. I got my most recent set for $85 each.

3. Tires... Has anyone tracked the Vredesteins yet? Pretty sure thats a 'no'. How a tire performs on-track is a whole new story vs. its street manners. Your 245/45 --> 275/40 setup is actually a semi-typical stagger for 9" wheels and is probably fine. Run the Nittos until they wear out if you have only one set of wheels. The NT05 does indeed look good and I am probably going to go with the 275/40's on all four corners as soon as I wear out my other street tires... and see how they perform on the track.

4. A front strut brace would be nice but is not going to kill you if you don't put it on. I have the DC Motorsports front brace, which came out before the Razors Edge one. The RE bar seems to be the best product but is a bigger PITA to install since you have to remove some existing parts to get it on. It may also cost more. Mine ran $180.

5. I'd put fluid cooling at the top of your list. In my book, you want to keep your motor and transmission as happy as possible. I just dropped my tranny pan after almost 70k miles and it was nothing short of splendid inside. And I use my tranny for hard deceleration. A lot. Big part of why I can do that with apparently zero penalties is that I have two tranny coolers in place; the aux cooler is a 37,000 btu/hr unit, too. Not some little tube-and-fin deal. Same with the oil... Two coolers. Big one is a 57,000 btu/hr stacked plate cooler and the small one is the Mopar police cooler. Then, I put in a big radiator to make up for the heat the oil cooler was displacing.

For you, with an SRT already, which is at least acceptable in most respects as a track car and doesn't need to be reinvented, I'd do the following to keep the budget sane, in this order:

1. Buy fire-retardant underwear, socks and balaclava. An SA 2005 helmet, fireproof high-top shoes and a neck ring. Conga rats... you just spent about $1000, if you get the good stuff (Carmyth, which is comfy all day long). Out here only geeks wear racing suits so the undies are a good safety feature.

2. Get tow hooks put in. If you don't, and you go off track, the tow vehicles will use your suspension for tow points and you will spend a fortune fixing that damage.

3. Put in the Mopar Police Oil Cooler and monitor temps. You already have a pretty big radiator so don't worry there. If its still not cool enough, consider a second cooler. But the POC is like $175... No need to go nuts before you know you need to.

4. Add a tranny cooler. One that has at least the capacity mine has. Transmissions are expensive and you can buy yourself an enormous amount of breathing room with this one mod.

5. Put on a front strut brace.

6. Put in stainless brake lines. They will do NOTHING for performance but you will like the feel.

7. Upgrade your tires when you wear your current ones out.

8. Upgrade your rotors to current SRT stock when you wear your current ones out.

9. If you still have money and are digging on the track experience you are having, *now* its time to think about serious money for upgrading your suspension. Bushings are definitely going to be a good thing. But the real deal is... you already have 75+% of it on your current suspension.

Cibalo
02-15-2009, 09:03 PM
Thank you for the info Matt.

I thought about doing the kv2 and sway bars but after looking at the total price including shipping and install plus some of the other pedders kits that I'd want to upgrade to it came out to the same price to get the Track II but becoming one of their certified LX cars. I can also sell my old suspension to help off set the cost.

How did you install your tow hook and do you have a link for it? Did you cut a hole there or get a custom set up done?

I tried to get the brake TSB done but I was already past the mileage on my car and I couldn't talk the dealer into it. Do you get the rotors from the dealer or know where the best place to get them is?

I'll start looking into the coolers some more and let you know if I have any questions. This will be an on going project for a while.

Oh do you use the autostick function or just let the TCM handle the shifting and do you have the ESP on or off?

MattRobertson
02-15-2009, 09:30 PM
How did you install your tow hook and do you have a link for it? Did you cut a hole there or get a custom set up done?I did a custom setup. X E Ryder posted up a great tutorial on using Euro-spec Mopar parts but it appears as if they are no longer available. I wasn't able to get the things., at least, and my parts kung fu is strong (actually, the same guy who got them for X E couldn't get them any more).

Edit: Here's the tow hook writeup (http://lelandwest.com/auto-tech/tow-hooks.cfm), half-finished. Look for the rest - pics and install and such - in the next couple of days.


Do you get the rotors from the dealer or know where the best place to get them is?I got my most recent two sets from the local dealer. I may get the next set - I should be due for another at the end of March - online. The trick is that if you buy local you pay no shipping, but the local guy may want more money for them. You have to balance out the two. Ask your local dealer what they want... and tell them you know about the recent price increase and did they get theirs on the shelf before that increase.


Oh do you use the autostick function or just let the TCM handle the shifting and do you have the ESP on or off?Oh I absolutely run in a numbered gear. I also have paddle shifters, so my hands stay on the wheel. Once you go to paddle shifters you will never go back to a stick, especially if you track the car.

Pretty sure I saw a video that Ron380 did and he's running in 'D'. Also DadsSRT8 told me he runs that way. For me, running in 'D' at Laguna Seca was a 3-second hit on my lap times, and tough on the brakes. I don't recommend doing it.

As for ESP... its off. My car has no ESP. HAL see's a 6.4L motor and immediately flakes. You'd be surprised how stable it is without it. I thought the car was keeping me honest cuz I almost never break traction but it turns out I'm a better driver than I thought I was :D

Cibalo
02-15-2009, 09:53 PM
Thanks Matt. I bookmarked the tow hook link and will look at it more closely.

I'll check here with my local shop but my club SCLX has some hook up with the dealers where we can get parts at cost plus like 10% or something like that. One of the supporting dealers also owns a viper race team so maybe he'll help me out some.

I installed paddle shifters a few weeks ago and have been trying them out on some of the back roads but I'm jones to try them on the track. Last time on the track I ran with the ESP on and noticed the light flashing a few times coming out of a corner. I don't know if that means I should leave it on until I get better or if I should turn it off and see what happens.

Ron380
02-15-2009, 10:30 PM
FYI- TTMR and I were both running in D because that was our first time EVER on a full track! I had enough other things to worry about without shifting yet... That WILL change as I get better on the track. :thumbs_u: In autocross we both run with the numbers, usually just in 2nd for most of the course. We'll slap it down to 1st for the hard corners, though.

I used the dash-button ESP "off". That worked well for me. ;) (That's "70% off" in my case.)

TTMR
02-16-2009, 12:04 PM
Gonna shoot for shifting on the 30th, as Ron said, a little busy to shift that first time out but I was leaving a lot on the table. I wasn't quite in drive, I had selected 1 on the way out and just let it upshift on it's own and never slapped it back down. I ended up in 4th gear. (130ish on the back strait)

Steve Levin
02-16-2009, 04:10 PM
I think Matt touched on great points. With an SRT-8, I think you already have a car that is so upgraded from the factory that you get way beyond any reasonable "bang for the buck" upgrade path. From a performance standpoint, the F1 Supercars are excellent. Your choices there are to either go with lower profile tires (better performance, but harsher ride, and possibly not good for daily use) or with harder, lesser performing tires that cost less. Nothing wrong with that, either.

The Mopar police oil cooler and the tower brace are the things I would consider upgrading -- especially the oil cooler, which is cheap and helps keep oil tempts below 270. For the brace...well..it can't hurt, I suppose. And it's not super expensive.

I was able to get several sets of stock brake pads from people who pulled them off their cars as soon as they got them for the dust-free ones (in fact, I have a set I can sell you cheap if you want) -- I don't know if that's still the case, but a year ago it certainly was.

With the rotors, stick with the stock SRT units, and if you warp them, you'll end up with the new ones as replacements.

From a driving standpoint, my experience was to leave the car in 3rd gear, and use 2nd in a few places where it is fairly slow.

I only rarely used 4th because you can get right up to 120 in 3rd, and beyond that, really, you are hauling the mail. Beyond that the strightline speed wasn't worth it to me since you have to use that much more brake a couple of seconds later.

I don't like leaving the car in drive because it might start shifting about. I strongly suggest lapping in 3rd gear until you really have the line down. Using 2nd can get VERY exciting on the exit, especially if you have ERP off (that said, I never ran with it fully disabled, just in 'off' because while it is intrusive when 'on' if it kicks in during 'off' you really, really want it).

Steve

Cibalo
02-16-2009, 04:33 PM
Thanks for the info everyone. Here is a video of the track that I'm driving to give you a better idea of what the car will be going through. I was able to hit 120 mph going down the front straight the last time I was out there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CeBHjC0p90

Ron380
02-16-2009, 04:55 PM
Thanks for the link! Here's the track TTMR and I are "impatiently" waiting for it to open...

http://lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=138652

:racing: :mrgreen:

Cibalo
02-16-2009, 05:05 PM
looks like a fun track with a really long straight away

Cibalo
02-16-2009, 10:50 PM
I found this over on a camaro forum of all places talking about fluid cooling on the LX. Take a look and let me know what you guys think. Looks a little familiar.

http://www.camaro5.com/forums/showthread.php?p=55327

Ron380
02-16-2009, 10:56 PM
^^ OMG! We'll have to tell MattR he's "world-famous"!! That's his "Frankencooler" thread I have linked in Post #1 of this thread! ROFL!

Ummm... YES, that's good material! ;)

Ron380
02-28-2009, 05:21 PM
Here's my wheel/tire comparison:

(yes, they're filthy... sorry. Everything will get washed when it's above 30* for a while...)
http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii318/jedironin380/Tires2.jpg

On the left, Sport Edition KV5's, 20", with Yokohama Parada Spec-X 255/45/20. Weight = 61 lbs! These are V-rated All-Season tires, UTQG = 450. Ran these in a few autocrosses and at Mid Ohio last year- they did "okay". Not bad at all on treadwear, anyway.

On the right, Stock AWD 18" wheels with Sumitomo HTR Z3 245/45/18. Weight = 50 lbs! They're also exactly 2" shorter overall diameter than the 20's. These are Z-rated Max. Performance Summer tires, UTQG = 300. I'll let you know how they perform as this year progresses.

Gabe
02-28-2009, 09:20 PM
Wow Ron ... you almost showed us a pic of your car lowered .... :)

Ron380
03-09-2009, 09:47 PM
Hey guys,

Anyone who's interested in finding a solution for a front tow hook for us, please show your interest here:
http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=155122

If Modern Muscle can get an idea of how much interest there is (or not...) in this, we just might be able to persuade them to put this on the list someday... ;)

Even if you're not that interested in road-racing... how about a good tow hook for lowered cars that run the drag-races, or those of us who drive our cars in the snow? Something to think about... :beerchug:

Cibalo
03-09-2009, 09:58 PM
thanks Ron, I just posted over there. Right now my plan was to fab up a bracket and weld it on the front beam and have the hook mounting point come out one of my fascia vents. It would be recessed inside and then I would screw in the hook such that it suck out in front of the car.

For the rear I'm looking into getting the mopar trailer hitch for the LX, which puts the receiver pointing straight down and tucks up nicely under the fascias (on the SRT you can't see it) and then get an 90* adapter that a ball hitch would go into but instead of the ball fab up another mounting hook

Ron380
03-09-2009, 10:21 PM
Interesting ideas, buddy! I've seen the pics of MattR's car with the front fascia off, and I'm not sure how the interior structure would mate-up with the existing spaces... I don't have any spaces on my Charger like you have on the Magnum, though. Good Luck with it if you decide to go that route! :thumbs_u:

Cibalo
03-10-2009, 12:19 AM
thanks Ron I'll let you know how it goes when ever i get around to it. Oh and I have a 300 not a magnum and the SRT fascia gives you a lot of options on where to come out

MattRobertson
03-10-2009, 01:07 PM
Dunno how you are going to do it without drilling a hole in the fascia. On a 300 or Charger or Magnum, to get it out of an existing vent you are going to have to do some serious routing/bracketing, which would compromise strength quite a bit unless you build some serious stuff to make up for the angling.

http://lelandwest.com/auto-tech/magnum/hooks/front_shop.jpg

http://lelandwest.com/auto-tech/magnum/hooks/front_facing.jpg

http://lelandwest.com/auto-tech/magnum/hooks/front_right.jpg

http://lelandwest.com/auto-tech/magnum/hooks/rear_shop.jpg

http://lelandwest.com/auto-tech/magnum/hooks/rear_installed.jpg

Cibalo
03-10-2009, 01:48 PM
well like I said, I'm just thinking about it and starting to look in to it. Nothing has been finalized. I do like how you did the rear, I just don't want the front to have an open hole in the fascia. I'm sure I"ll figure it out once I get to that step.

Redfox0099
03-10-2009, 01:57 PM
I don't know, a tow hook on the front kinda gives it a "bad ass" look if you ask me.

MattRobertson
03-10-2009, 02:04 PM
It looks better with the red 'tow' decal on. Also, I actually have a rubber-backed plate and bolt that I used for a time between track days. Looked kinda weird and, as Nathan says, the hook looks good on there. Nowadays the front hook stays on permanently so there is no open hole.

X E Ryder did essentially the same thing with his Euro-Mopar hook. The factory parts required a hole and their hook cam out underneath the bumper IIRC.

Cibalo
03-10-2009, 02:05 PM
it would look a little retarded when I go to the grocery store and I'm sure the cops around here would bust my balls if I have a tow hook hanging off the front. I'm pretty sure I could come up with a cover and have it color matched to sit flush with the fascia

Ron380
03-10-2009, 03:17 PM
The Police won't care if you have a tow hook on your car. If anyone asks about it, just tell them you got stuck once in mud/sand/snow/etc. and damaged the front of the car trying to pull it out, and you don't want to have that problem again! :thumbs_u:

Cibalo
03-10-2009, 04:16 PM
well when you see a buddy at a stop light and you give him a little rev to say hi and he revs back, when the light goes green you both take off at normal speed and there is an accord in the lane next to you that is actually ahead of you and you get pulled over by the police and taken to jail for "potential street racing" you tend to not take your chances

Redfox0099
03-10-2009, 04:23 PM
A folding tow hook does not say "street racer" to me at all.

Posted via LXFMobile

MattRobertson
03-10-2009, 04:31 PM
Ditto, but if you've been hauled off to the slammer I can see where you'd be paranoid.

If anything, the tow hook is evidence that you DON'T street race. Last time I got pulled over (no front plate... he was looking the car over, basically) I pointed out to the guy that I had track gear on (and in) the car and I keep it safe and on the track. So if you think on it... a tow hook helps you make the opposite argument. At least thats how it worked for me.

JusticePete
03-10-2009, 06:59 PM
Ron,

Really good thread. Really Good.

Ron380
03-10-2009, 10:06 PM
Thanks Pete! See you in a couple of weeks! :)

JusticePete
03-11-2009, 04:35 PM
Thanks Pete! See you in a couple of weeks! :)

The rule is the same as flying. 12 hours bottle to throttle! :beerchug: after the track day.

TTMR
03-11-2009, 09:43 PM
Law says 8 hours, 12 for "binge drinking" and we won't be having any of that now will we?
;)

Jontoad
03-22-2009, 12:42 PM
not the best pic in the world but 275/40/20 nitto NT-05's on all 4 corners. they corner on rails and are very predictable. they feel great on the street but i wont get them to a twisty race track till i run gingerman in July. i can still spin em easy so a trip to the drag strip will tell me if they are any better for 60foot times. who knows because with the stiff ass sidewalls they have no wrinkle wall but that center rib puts a lot of rubber on the road, its like a 4in wide solid center tread block. definitely a great road racing tire but I'm hoping they help me on the drag strip a little too.

http://i44.tinypic.com/xc5dw1.jpg

Ron380
03-22-2009, 01:07 PM
Nice! Can you say "contact patch"? hehe

Look forward to your results from Gingerman... I'll try to get up there sometime, too! :thumbs_u: What days in July are you going? ;)

MattRobertson
03-22-2009, 06:16 PM
I've got NT 05's all around in 255/45/20. They're my street tires :-)

I TRIED to run them on Infineon yesterday but when I was putting them on thats when we discovered the busted sway link. End of track day. :-(

JusticePete
03-23-2009, 01:38 AM
How often do you two get to Gingerman?

Jontoad
03-23-2009, 07:34 AM
How often do you two get to Gingerman?

not often, this will be my first time. im going to this event with some friends.

http://www.wmhm.org/about.html

TTMR
04-02-2009, 07:27 PM
I finaly got a chance to track the car with the EBC brakes and front strut bar this weekend. Both were deffinatly worth the coin to purchase. The pads still overheat and make the car a little jittery at the end of a hard stop, but unlike the stockers no cracks or deposits on the rotor. My BFG slicks have survived yet another track day with minimal wear.

My next mod might just be some gas cans, I burnt through almost a tank and a half of 93 for about 2 hours 45min of track time. I don't want to have to pay track prices again if I can avoid it!

RobAGD
04-02-2009, 08:06 PM
yea that 3.75 for 93 at the track was criminal

-R

MattRobertson
04-02-2009, 11:55 PM
3.75??? pansies. Its 8 bucks a gallon at tracks out here.

I always bring 3 full gas cans with me and run the first session with 1/2 tank. If the sessions are 30 minutes, I start with a 7/8 tank and get more gas -- in town -- at lunch.

Ron380
04-03-2009, 08:35 AM
3.75??? pansies. Its 8 bucks a gallon at tracks out here.


:shock: :panic: :wtf: :doh:

TTMR
04-03-2009, 11:22 AM
I considered going into town for gas, but decided against it. I didn't want to pick any junk up in my slicks. Plus my numbers weren't removable and I didn't want to be a cop magnet.

CT-MSRT
04-03-2009, 11:44 AM
I considered going into town for gas, but decided against it. I didn't want to pick any junk up in my slicks. Plus my numbers weren't removable and I didn't want to be a cop magnet.

I filled back up in town for 2.09 for 93! didn't take the numbers off my radio flyer until Wednesday... I guess i might have rethought that fill up bit if i was running those gnarly slicks you got.

MattRobertson
04-03-2009, 12:35 PM
Yeah I hear you on the slicks. As for the numbers, I don't worry about those anymore. Usually at the end of the day I just pack up and roll out. Hell, my numbers from Infineon are still on the car. I should probably remove those before I take it out again... which I haven't done since I drove home from the track. Boo hoo.
I considered going into town for gas, but decided against it. I didn't want to pick any junk up in my slicks. Plus my numbers weren't removable and I didn't want to be a cop magnet.


Hey guys, here's the hot tip for gas cans (image is live link to site):

http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/Images/M/2558.JPG (http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection.asp?Product=2558)

Screw one of these into the lid (link again):

http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/Images/M/2565.JPG (http://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productdetails.asp?RecID=729)

And you have the best hi flow gas solution short of a dump can that costs like $200.
Do not screw with Czech army surplus jerry cans that you can get cheap (been there, done that) unless you have lots of time to wait for the fuel to flow, and you want to build your biceps while in the paddock.