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  1. #1
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    Interesting Article on Valve Seat Drop

    Thanks Jon Richard thanked for this post
    Likes madcoder liked this post

  2. #2
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    Short article but a good read for anyone gearing up to replace their valve seats- like myself



  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    Short article but a good read for anyone gearing up to replace their valve seats- like myself
    Did you also read the articles that are linked? More info there.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2005rtmag View Post
    Did you also read the articles that are linked? More info there.
    I did this morning. Sucks that such well engineered motors recieved such poor execution. I wonder if there will ever be a recall?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    I did this morning. Sucks that such well engineered motors recieved such poor execution. I wonder if there will ever be a recall?
    The newest affected vehicle is a 2009 that is now 11 years old. If Chrysler/FCA hasn't recalled it already, you can bet your fortune they won't ever.

  6. #6
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    This is BS. I have been looking at options and prices to change the seats on my '07 R/T, but after doing so I'm inclined to just run it. Some say it's not "if" but "when" will it happen. Others run many miles having never dropped a seat.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    This is BS. I have been looking at options and prices to change the seats on my '07 R/T, but after doing so I'm inclined to just run it. Some say it's not "if" but "when" will it happen. Others run many miles having never dropped a seat.
    This is the problem; unwarranted fear mongering that is generated by those who run around crying wolf.

    Given the hundreds of thousands of Hemi's on the road today, times eight cylinders, it really puts into perspective how small this issue really is. Hence why no OEM in right mind to would entertain issuing a TSB (if failures occurs under warrantee, that's a different story).

    I urge everyone who reads this to take into account how the Internet has a very bad habit of making mountains outta a molehills by spreading everything at light-speed. Good - or bad.

    Its fear-driven...you're worrying needlessly...
    2005 Magnum RT---Viper Venom Red----440ci Aluminum block----Short Runner Valve Intake--410mm BAER 6S Monoblock Extreme--Eibach Multi-Pro 2

    Custom--Grille Work--Hood--Headlights--Side View Mirrors--Rear Spoiler--Rear Diffuser--SRV Control System--Turbine Wheels


  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hemissary View Post
    This is the problem; unwarranted fear mongering that is generated by those who run around crying wolf.

    Given the hundreds of thousands of Hemi's on the road today, times eight cylinders, it really puts into perspective how small this issue really is. Hence why no OEM in right mind to would entertain issuing a TSB (if failures occurs under warrantee, that's a different story).

    I urge everyone who reads this to take into account how the Internet has a very bad habit of making mountains outta a molehills by spreading everything at light-speed. Good - or bad.

    Its fear-driven...you're worrying needlessly...
    While I agree with your sentiments about internet lore I'm not so certain folks are worrying needlessly.

    The seats are powder metal and the seats are on the small side with an interference fit that leaves a little to be desired. While I did learn of the talk surrounding this issue I talked first hand to 3 trusted sources. Derrick at L&R machine, Lonni Bartley in Elsinore, and a third local respected shop with a Mopar fanatic as their lead.

    So I don't feel it's outside of the realm of consideration that these fears have merit, nor am I completely in disagreement with you over what to do about it as I've decided to run a 190° T-stat and a tune to spin up the fans in accordance thinking a little less thermal expansion couldn't hurt.

    Really I find the OP's article interesting as it isn't focused on just 1 engine, and could be that most companies engineer motors to run hotter in pursuit of clean air and efficiency. Plus I've seen over the years that everything seems to be engineered right to the threshold, the valve seats in the 5.7 for example are maybe adequate but certainly not over built.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    While I agree with your sentiments about internet lore I'm not so certain folks are worrying needlessly.

    The seats are powder metal and the seats are on the small side with an interference fit that leaves a little to be desired. While I did learn of the talk surrounding this issue I talked first hand to 3 trusted sources. Derrick at L&R machine, Lonni Bartley in Elsinore, and a third local respected shop with a Mopar fanatic as their lead.

    So I don't feel it's outside of the realm of consideration that these fears have merit, nor am I completely in disagreement with you over what to do about it as I've decided to run a 190° T-stat and a tune to spin up the fans in accordance thinking a little less thermal expansion couldn't hurt.

    Really I find the OP's article interesting as it isn't focused on just 1 engine, and could be that most companies engineer motors to run hotter in pursuit of clean air and efficiency. Plus I've seen over the years that everything seems to be engineered right to the threshold, the valve seats in the 5.7 for example are maybe adequate but certainly not over built.
    Changing to a lower T-stat set point will not alter the local temperature right at the exhaust seats, so this is also an ongoing misnomer. One could install a 160F T-stat...and still(!) the temperature at the valve seat / head interface will be the same for a given load. Do you understand why?

    What a lower coolant temperature will do is allow more thermal energy, per unit-volume of coolant, to be transferred over a given unit of time. A lower T-stat set point, simply will not alter the thermal energy generated (BTUs - that is actually doing the work) during the oxidation (combustion) process.

    If you go to a cross section of Rebuild Shops across the continent, some actually use the failures to drum up business...by preying on people's fear.


    As it relates to a valve seat / cylinder head interface, what do you consider to be "overbuilt"? How do
    you know if it is underbuilt?

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hemissary View Post
    Changing to a lower T-stat set point will not alter the local temperature right at the exhaust seats, so this is also an ongoing misnomer. One could install a 160F T-stat...and still(!) the temperature at the valve seat / head interface will be the same for a given load. Do you understand why?

    What a lower coolant temperature will do is allow more thermal energy, per unit-volume of coolant, to be transferred over a given unit of time. A lower T-stat set point, simply will not alter the thermal energy generated (BTUs - that is actually doing the work) during the oxidation (combustion) process.

    If you go to a cross section of Rebuild Shops across the continent, some actually use the failures to drum up business...by preying on people's fear.


    As it relates to a valve seat / cylinder head interface, what do you consider to be "overbuilt"? How do
    you know if it is underbuilt?
    That's a strawman argument considering I never claimed a T-stat would alter combustion temps. I specifically made reference to thermal expansion. If you want to argue that the expansion and contraction from heat cycles with a motor that runs hotter and heatsoaks after shutdown have no effect that's a different discussion.

    As far as your remarks about shops drumming up business, maybe so, but I went to those I know and trust.

    I consider overbuild to mean stronger than necessary. Maybe traditional cobalt alloy seats rather than a powder metal, with a fit of .003" +.0005 -.0000. With a larger O.D. and set depth.

    Thanks for the responses Hemissarry, I'd prefer an exchange of ideas over a debate.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    That's a strawman argument considering I never claimed a T-stat would alter combustion temps. I specifically made reference to thermal expansion. If you want to argue that the expansion and contraction from heat cycles with a motor that runs hotter and heatsoaks after shutdown have no effect that's a different discussion.

    As far as your remarks about shops drumming up business, maybe so, but I went to those I know and trust.

    I consider overbuild to mean stronger than necessary. Maybe traditional cobalt alloy seats rather than a powder metal, with a fit of .003" +.0005 -.0000. With a larger O.D. and set depth.

    Thanks for the responses Hemissarry, I'd prefer an exchange of ideas over a debate.
    Call it what you like; thermal expansion will not be altered at the valve seat / cylinder head interface during the oxidation process by installing a T-stat with a lower set point :^)

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hemissary View Post
    Call it what you like; thermal expansion will not be altered at the valve seat / cylinder head interface during the oxidation process by installing a T-stat with a lower set point :^)
    "During the oxidation process"

    Not to beat a dead horse but you understand that I'm not referring to chamber temps rather, the overall temperature swing of the engine as is goes from cold start to shutdown.

    Really dude I want you to be right as I LOVE my new to me Magnum. And you're obviously convince that myself and the masses suffer from a sort of web induced delirium, but is it really in your mind so beyond questioning? I understand how the internet works, and how you hear about the bad way more often than the positive. But seriously I am hearing and reading this what I consider inordinately so as a new owner it seams reasonable to probe further and so far, you're the only source positing that it's a false claim.

    So although I'm mechanically competent, you're right to question what qualifies me to properly assess this issue in that I haven't personally had my heads apart to check tolerances. But the problem is I'm NOT making a claim, I'm investigating one. So since you obviously feel strongly in this matter I believe the burden of proof is on you.

    This isn't me calling you out so much as it is simply the reasonable thing to ask you to share insights for the benefit of the forums. Being dismissive seems less productive.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon Richard View Post
    "During the oxidation process"

    Not to beat a dead horse but you understand that I'm not referring to chamber temps rather, the overall temperature swing of the engine as is goes from cold start to shutdown.

    Really dude I want you to be right as I LOVE my new to me Magnum. And you're obviously convince that myself and the masses suffer from a sort of web induced delirium, but is it really in your mind so beyond questioning? I understand how the internet works, and how you hear about the bad way more often than the positive. But seriously I am hearing and reading this what I consider inordinately so as a new owner it seams reasonable to probe further and so far, you're the only source positing that it's a false claim.

    So although I'm mechanically competent, you're right to question what qualifies me to properly assess this issue in that I haven't personally had my heads apart to check tolerances. But the problem is I'm NOT making a claim, I'm investigating one. So since you obviously feel strongly in this matter I believe the burden of proof is on you.

    This isn't me calling you out so much as it is simply the reasonable thing to ask you to share insights for the benefit of the forums. Being dismissive seems less productive.
    False claim = strawman; Nowhere have I said that. Dismissive? Versus your condescending.

    I deal in facts. To lay this to rest would be to suggest if you personally feel, despite the facts you need to act, then remove your cylinder heads and have them refurbished. I doubt you, or others who worry about this when pressed will actually remove their heads and have the work performed. Which in of itself induces R&R risks on different fronts.

    For everyone else; stop worrying and continue to enjoy your vehicle :^)
    Last edited by Hemissary; 09-13-2019 at 04:08 PM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hemissary View Post
    False claim = strawman; Nowhere have I said that. Dismissive? Versus your condescending.

    I deal in facts. To lay this to rest would be to suggest if you personally feel, despite the facts, you need to act then remove your cylinder heads and have them refurbished. I doubt you, or others who worry about this when pressed will actually remove their heads and have the work performed. Which in of itself induces R&R risks on different fronts.

    For everyone else; stop worrying and continue to enjoy your vehicle :^)
    The strawman remark was not meant as a sleight, I was defending that I never took the position that a T-stat would alter localized chamber temps. Sorry if you feel I was being condescending toward you Hemissarry. You did come across as believing this is a non issue very strongly, that's what I meant about dismissive. I'm going to chalk this up as communication breakdown that happens often with short form written exchanges.

    I may decide to do head work and if so I will post, but again I have nothing to prove as I'm not taking a position. You are declaring very adamantly that this is a non concern, all I'm asking is that you present these facts you're referring to to enforce this claim.

    I am truly perplexed as to how this became a contest, was definitely not my intent to argue or offend. All I can tell you Hemissarry is that I am hearing and reading about potential valve seat issues in the gen3 5.7 and all one can do is go off the information available to them. If you have better information about the pre eagle 5.7's myself and I'm sure others would like entertaining it.

  15. #15
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    i don't see why using a lower temp thermostat won't keep the aluminum head cooler which is the objective. The seat temp being high is ok. It helps keep the seat tight in the head, it's the aluminum head temp that needs to be kept lower to keep it from expanding and releasing the seat. Aluminum transfers heat very quickly. But, I think you need a larger radiator to go along with the lower temp thermostat to make sure the peak temp on a hot day doesn't go too high.

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