I have been working with Josh at HHP and Ted/Jeff/Jamie of allusamotorsports on a combined tuning effort that has been an interesting project.
The vehicle was a lowered compression 6.1 based block with a very high lift cam and high flow heads. On top of that, it had a twin turbo kit installed, so it had a lot of tuning issues to overcome.
What we did, was to combine the capabilities of a CMR tune and the iEMS3 together.
The CMR tune was configured to address the air flow changes needed for the lowered compression, high lift cam, and high flow heads. The tune was scaled for the stock MAP sensor in lieu of a typical 2 bar sensor. The tune was scaled for the larger injectors, and the other typical changes such as torque management, idle, throttle response, etc. The timing changes were less aggressive than in a typical FI tune as well.
In this fashion, the iEMS3 was essentially in a pass though condition whenever operating in a vacuum state. When the vehicle would enter a boosted state, the iEMS3 would take over fueling requirements providing part throttle boost fuel corrections and increased fuel as the boost pressures increased through direct injector control.
The iEMS3 provides control over the stock 1 BAR map sensor to prevent ECU MAP voltage over range, and control of the O2 sensors for part throttle boost fuel correction. It also provided the timing retard needed when in boost so the timing tables could be left closer to stock configuration.
The iEMS3 was controlling boost levels through it's internal electronic boost control.
This setup worked out very well on this vehicle, and provides a much more civilized driving environment than it previously had.
It is inter-cooled and is using water/meth injection for combustion chamber cooling rather than dumping a lot of fuel and a lot of timing retard.
At 7psi I believe the final numbers were 525rwhp and around 530 rwtq, and this was at the limit of the fuel injectors and stock fuel system.
This has proven we can work directly with a specialized CMR tune and address the challenges of FI on the Hemi's by combining the technologies to address the issues and concessions that have been made up to this point.
I invite discussion on this technique and any questions regarding it.
North Coast Turbo Systems LLC
Home of the iEMS3 Engine Management System and the PTFC module, the cures for your Forced Induction drivability issues!
Home of the fastest 5.7 Cherokee, firstname.lastname@example.org MPH
All stock internals 5.7 Hemi with a bolt on turbo, Tuned via the iEMS3
Sharadon Performance Valve Body
how did you hook it up? what qualifications are expected for a tuner to know how to work your product? It only corrects fuel?
400ci stroker, Vortech blower, and enough said
I spoke with josh briefly about this a few months back..I guess it is working out very well...
How does this system hook up to the car, plug and play or do I have to wire it in myself which is not a problem..
Derrick @ Auto Performance Aesthetics Club
I have only heard of this system from you, is this product tune by most tuners stateside? It took a long time to get CMR tuneing down here in Houston TX as most of you fast boys are up North. Or dose/can it come with a base tune?
It sounds like if we get our motors tuned N/A, and this can come somewhat tuned, all we will have to do is add it on, with our blower installs to make it all work togeather?
Frank Racing Inc
6.1 431 Stroker ( Fully Coated shortblock set up for Boost, 9.6 comp,), 5.7 Exstream heads w .030 Mill, 2300 Harrop RDP Blower, FRI Camshaft ATI Over Drive Pulley,Labonte Motorsports Meth Kit, Little Nitros Kit, Dynatech Headers/Cats with a SLP LM2 , Pro Torque 3400 Stall, SRT Rear end w/ 3.06 Gears and DSS Halfshafts
490 HP and 455 TQ Before Motor and Blower Baby
Best Run to Date...
11.539 with a 1.599 60ft 4250 Race Weight at 117.58mph
Thanks to Steve AKA "Frank Racing", And Sohfast94! BAD A$$ Tuner
I will answer your questions at the end, but first let me clarify a couple things.
You do not have to run a CMR tune to use the iEMS3, it is fully capable of handling the FI tuning on its own.
Conversely, many people are running FI without using an iEMS3, relying on CMR for their tuning.
Using CMR alone for FI will not allow for fuel correction when a closed loop boosted condition is present, so you are left running a 14.7 AFR under low boost. You must also run a larger than stock MAP sensor to prevent MAP voltage over range and resulting engine codes. In some cases other drivability issues can remain as well.
If a vehicle is running an aftermarket cam and in some case very high flow heads (or combination of the two) where it creates low vacuum idle issues, that situation can only be corrected by modifying the ECU parameters. The iEMS3 works very well on itís own for vehicles that do not have airflow issues and resulting low vacuum issues (stock or near stock head and cam profiles). The iEMS3 does not write to the ECU, so it can not correct for such airflow issues, and it is not intended to do so.
So both methods have their own limitations. This is a new approach combining the two methods together to address these challenges, and to provide as near stock like integration of FI into a modern HEMI powered vehicle.
CMR can handle the airflow modifications needed in certain vehicles, injector sizing, plus the usual tweaks such as idle, throttle response, torque management, etc.
The iEMS3 eliminates the need to run a larger MAP sensor and any drivability issues related to using a larger range MAP sensor. The iEMS3 provides the closed loop boost fuel correction that can not be provided by CMR alone. It also reduces the need to run very rich AFR,s and very aggressive timing retard to reduce combustion chamber pressures to reduce heat and potential knock. The iEMS3 can handle fuel addition and timing retard throughout the boosted range of operation. It can also handle injector sizing as well.
Combining the two together allows us to use the best of both to further refine the tunability of Forced Induction.
This is what I see as the ultimate setup;
CMR tune that uses the stock MAP sensor.
CMR scaled for the new injector sizing.
CMR has less aggressive timing changes.
CMR changes to correct for any airflow needs related to non stock heads and cam.
CMR normal tweaks for idle, fans, torque management, throttle response, etc.
Essentially, an optimized N/A tune running larger injectors.
iEMS3 set for 100% of ECU fuel pulse and no injector offset.
iEMS3 configured to provide MAP sensor voltage control to prevent ECU signal over range.
iEMS3 configured for O2 sensor control providing closed loop boost fuel correction.
iEMS3 fuel map configured to add additional injector pulse width based on load and rpm (boosted range operation).
iEMS3 ignition map configured to provide timing retard as need in the boosted range minimizing overall timing changes in the CMR tune.
iEMS3 configured to provide electronic boost control (turbo vehicles) based on load, rpm, and TPS position.
iEMS3 configured to provide progressive water/meth injection based on load and rpm.
The two additional digital outputs configured for user options such as shift light and additional accessory control.
Wideband 0-5v analog output connected to the iEMS3 for datalogging.
Wideband AFR, EGT, and vac/boost gauge mandatory so you know what is going on.
Water/meth injection to control combustion chamber temperatures when in boost, controlled by the iEMS3 or a progressive external controller.
Water/meth injection point downstream of the IAT sensor
Optional, would be to run an intercooler or add a second smaller water/meth injection nozzle upstream of the IAT (1/4 size of the main nozzle, about 24Ē away from the IAT).
In this configuration, you would be running an optimized NA tune providing the best functions and features of CMR so that the ECU tune handles vacuum state operation. The iEMS3 eliminates many of the drivability issues associated with FI tunes and non stock MAP sensors, provides the missing closed loop boost fuel correction, allows less aggressive fuel addition and timing retard, provides full control of the injectors for boosted range operation for fuel addition and timing retard, integrates boost control, water/meth injection, and any other user functions into one unit based on actual load and rpm conditions.
Regarding your questions,
How did you hook it up?
The iEMS3 is plugged into the ECU injector output via male injector connectors which plug into the factory connector going to the injector. The fuel pulse runs into the iEMS3 where it is read and a new calculated fuel pulse is sent to the iEMS3 internal injector drivers and out to the injectors through female injector connectors plugged into the injectors.
The ECU can not see any changes made to the fuel pulse after it leaves the ECU, and in actuality, it is not firing the injectors, the iEMS3 is firing the injectors through itís own internal injector drivers. The ECU injector output is tied to an electronic injector load board so that it sees what it perceives to be the injector spike, so it is firing dummy injectors.
The iEMS3 is spliced into the ECU harness near the ECU connectors. The connection that made are;
Crank signal lead cut, In/Out to the iEMS3 (2 wires)
MAP signal lead cut, In/Out to the iEMS3 (2 wires)
O2 sensor return lead cut, In/Out to the iEMS3 (2 wires)
iEMS3 chassis grounds (2) connected to the ECU chassis ground case mounting bolt
iEMS3 signal ground leads (2) connected to the ECU signal ground lead (T- Splice)
iEMS3 power lead to 12V+ battery terminal (constant on)
Additional connections based on configuration
For electronic boost control input, iEMS3 lead connected to ECU TPS lead (T- Splice)(also provides datalogging of TPS voltage/percent open based on sensor definition in the iEMS3 datalogging setup)
For electronic boost control, iEMS3 output ground lead to boost control solenoid (12v+ power supplied to second solenoid lead by installer)
For IAT datalogging, iEMS3 lead connected to ECU IAT lead (T- Splice)
For Wideband AFR datalogging, wideband 0-5v output spliced to iEMS3 input lead
For water/meth injection control, iEMS3 output ground lead to ground input lead on optional power switch (high load electronic relay)
Two additional user configurable digital outputs for additional relay control, shift light, etc.
What qualifications are expected for a tuner to know how to work your product?
We can provide input to your CMR tuner for the ECU tune, or put an individual in contact with a tuner to create the tune file.
The iEMS3 tuning is very straight forward as all tuning is accomplished through direct value inputs in the ignition and fuel tables, ignition in degrees retard (-.2 increments), fuel in +/- milliseconds of additional fuel pulse (.2 milliseconds increments), O2 sensor control in fixed signal offset value (volts), MAP voltage control in volts (.3 volt increments on a single column rpm table), electronic boost control configured in psi target boost on a single column rpm table and percent of target boost on a single column TPS voltage table, water/meth pump control based on percent of duty cycle on a single column load table.
It only corrects fuel?
No, the iEMS3 has the full capability to control the following
∑ Injector overall sizing.
∑ Injector offset in three configurations.
o All 8 injectors.
o Left bank and right bank offset (useful to correct left/right fuel trim differences when using the factory fuel rails).
o Advanced applications can correct individual injector offsets.
∑ Fuel control from idle to full boost.
∑ Timing retard from idle to full boost.
∑ O2 sensor control for closed loop boost fuel correction.
∑ MAP voltage control.
∑ Electronic boost control.
∑ Progressive Water/meth (or nitrous) injection control.
∑ Data logging of all inputs and outputs connected to the iEMS3 as well as injector in, injector out, fuel added.
∑ Additional user configurable data based on calculations in the iEMS3.
On my 2008 Turbocharged Jeep Grand Cherokee (all stock internals, stock heads and cam), I am running a stock ECU and the iEMS3 is handling all fuel and timing corrections for the forced induction. At full boost, we are running the stock timing curves with a maximum of 3 degrees retard, and we have no knock retard present. I run an 11.2 to 11.8 AFR under wide open throttle boost, and I normally see around 12.2 for closed loop boost AFR.
My EGT readings are around 1200 degrees at normal cruise (no boost) and around 1300 degrees in max boost. My IAT temps run around 140 degrees under full boost (spray downstream of the IAT only) and around 115 degrees (partial spray upstream of the IAT).
If I spray upstream of the IAT, I will see about a .8 to 1 increment increase in AFR (richer) then when I do not spray upstream of the IAT.
Hopefully this answers your questions, if you have additional, please ask away.
Last edited by Tim@NCTSLLC; 11-03-2009 at 11:13 AM.
There is no charge for the software, it comes with the units and available free to anyone on line.
We have the basic configuration files and can provide a basic tune file that will get it up and running and ready for tweaking. Many individuals do there own tweaking via the software, and any experienced tuner would pick up on the software very quickly as it is all performed in direct values in the various tables.
If you have a shop you deal with, have them get in contact with me if they are interested in carrying/using the product.
Hmm, drive ability issues with a non stock map? Never really seen that as long as the 2 functions for whatever map is used are scaled properly.
There is no need to run a larger range map sensor for boosted applications, i personally recommend it because that will give you the ability to tailor the timing in when in boosted regions, stock map will not allow this and you are stuck with the top row of cells for 100kpa or 1.00 p-ration (map/baro).
I do not see why the timing would be different between the two setups, with a 2 or 3 bar map you can tailor the timing any way you want. Same thing with fuel, why would you need to run "less agressive fuel addition"?
Also any drive ability issues associated with forced induction that i have seen have been a direct result of improper calibration changes and or improper mechanical setup, most common culprit BOV not working like it should.
Have you ever looked into how a factory forced induction vehicle operates in regards to fueling?
The vehicles i have worked with, mainly GM's, DO NOT go into open loop for 1-3psi of boost, i think the main reason why would be fuel consumption, as you enter that kind of boost on a regular basis with no real load on the vehicle and if it went into open loop and started to dump fuel accordingly your mileage would be outright horrible and would not pass CAFE standards.
Johan <at> diablosport.com
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, I am not sure about the former.
I can only relate the experiences I have had and of those who contact me with complaints of drivability issues and what can be done to help eliminate them. I see numerous people who are dissatisfied with their vehicles drivability after adding forced induction. This was the sole reason why I started working with the manufacturer developing the iEMS3. Maybe they are not as pronounced on an SC as they are on a turbo, and as I have stated many times the experience of the person writing the file has the biggest impact on that area. Likewise, I also see those who are happy. Maybe depends on th individuals threshold of "drivability" and I am sure it has something to do with the file itself.
If retaining the stock MAP sensor, then one of two things would have to take place, either modify the tune (if possible) so the ECU would not care that the MAP voltage was over ranging, or control the voltage the ECU can see.
The reports I have seen from customers and shops indicate that they are running very rich (in the mid to low 10’s) and have significant timing reduction to control knock and to help with cylinder pressures and combustion chamber temps.
I run in the 11.5 range at full boost and it makes more power than if I run it in the mid 10’s. I also do not have to retard timing anywhere near what others are running either, I only pull 3 degrees off the stock timing curves, and I do not have any knock taking place.
If others did not have to run very rich AFR’s and significant reductions in timing to control knock and cylinder temp, I am sure they would not do so. Again, maybe this is due to the persons experience creating the ECU file. I can’t answer why they do what they do, I only know that I don’t have to do that.
I am sure that mechanical issues can certainly cause issues, as well as what actually goes into the files. Those are things only the owner and/or shop has control over and ability to diagnose.
Yes, I have a lot of personal experience with the Dodge turbo 4 cylinders. I have also been working on tuning FI on the new Hemi's since late 2005, long before the first Predator was out.
I certainly am not advocating that in closed loop boost situations that running WOT fuel levels are warranted or desired, and factory FI vehicles don’t either. However, factory FI vehicles ECU’s are designed to understand a boosted state and take all of the appropriate measures to deal with it and keep the engine safe. The engine is also built different than the N/A versions of the same engine so they can tolerate a low boost 14.7 AFR condition without failure.
Adding FI to engines and ECU’s never designed for it creates an entirely different environment that I am certain that you are well aware of. In that environment, the N/A built engine is not going to tolerate the same conditions that a factory built FI engine will, so additional measures must be taken to ensure that cylinder temps and pressures remain within the range that the stock components can tolerate.
When I go into boost, I add some additional fuel to take my AFR into the mid 12’s plus water/meth injection and about 1.5 degrees of timing retard, and yes I am still in closed loop. Cylinder temps stay in check, I have no knock retard, and I have racked up almost 50,000 personal miles on all stock internal 5.7 without any failures or issues. My fuel mileage went up 3 MPG on my 300C and 1.5 MPG on my AWD Cherokee, so my mileage is not suffering.
Let me make myself clear, I am not here knocking what CMR can do; I think it is a fantastic product as well as the predator which I recommend to everyone because it is well worth the cost for the features it provides. It is well known that on the Chrysler products we can not do the same things that can be done on many of the Ford and GM products because the actual Chrysler ECU programming can not be changed.
That is no one’s fault, and Chrysler owns the programming so it is their decision as to whether to let it out or not. They choose not.
I have people looking for advanced solutions because they are not happy with what they have. For whatever reason it is, they want something more, and I am trying to provide options.
Just as in this thread, its whole purpose is that we have now successfully integrated the two methods together, I am advocating using CMR, not knocking it or saying something is wrong with it. I have always stated that it is a great product.
Many people are happy with their current FI tunes, and I think that is great, and I am not suggesting they should change. But for the ones who are not happy for whatever reason, or simply want more control, this is an additional option for them.
Last edited by Tim@NCTSLLC; 11-03-2009 at 05:15 PM.
i have a question is the reason behind you only having to retard the timing 3 degrees on your setup is cause of the iems or cause you running a meth setup which raises the octane a significant amount and give you the ability to advance the timing without any issues?
Both the iEMS3 and the water meth work in conjunction to arrive at my results. Since I have closed loop boost fuel correction anytime I have boost present, then I don't have to be so concerned with changing my timing and fuel tables to make that area safe with a 14.7 AFR in low boost situations because I run in the mid 12's AFR.
We have always advocated using water/meth spray to combat high combustion chamber temps for FI providing the cooling rather than fuel and timing changes.
We really don't tune for the water/meth other than the cooling aspect of it, so while it does have some effect on the AFR, it is not that significant. I guess in a sense while I am not advancing timing because of the water/meth, I certainly am not pulling out a lot of timing so both results in more power for a given situation.
is meth injection adjustable like nitrous, you can increase the amount being sprayed? so not having a significant affect on afr's would depend on how much meth your running.
lets say your afr's are 11.8 at wot without meth and then you go ahead make a wot run with nothing altered or added except for adding meth, would your afr's maybe be a .2 or .3 (not a big difference) lower than the 11.8 or would it bring it down even lower maybe like .5 to 1.0 (nice difference) off of 11.8?
also if u tune the engine with meth only for cooling purposes and not mess with the afr wouldnt you get the same results as to running a high octane fuel like for example c16, you may cool things down but if you dont adjust the afr's it will actually make your performance worst?
please dont take my questions as being a pain in the ass im just trying to make sense of things
I would guees at this point it is likely in the .2 to .4 range of AFR effect if that, the O@ sensors don't do a good job picking up the meth concentration as it does the fuel.
All questions are good, no pain in the ass here!
how much of a difference in egt temps are u getting spraying the mixture your running when compared to not running it or you wouldnt be able to have an answer for that since you havent made a wot run with out it?