Halogen Infrared Reflecting (HIR) bulbs... feeling blue?

[MattRobertson]

Well, this isn't going to be such a fun thread for anybody. But I have the info and it has to come out. I'm starting a new thread because we have rules about crapping in someone else's sales thread and I'm making this attempt to at least try to keep this from making that other thread explode... which I'm sure it will, anyway. Maybe this thread can hold discussion of 'validity' while the other thread can focus on customer service.

Recently a Supporting Vendor here announced that he was selling Halogen Infrared Reflecting (HIR) bulbs for only $30 for a pair. This was a new price low point for the technology and a great thing. HIRs have been sold literally in the hundreds here through three Group Buys - one of which I ran in 2005 - and I was in fact the first LX'r to work out what it takes to plug the things in. We had an HIR install clinic on site at GIFO1, in fact.

So with that kind of history, members jumped on the bulbs. Reportedly over 100 pairs were sold. Unfortunately, when they started arriving they didn't look at all like the proven Toshiba HIR bulbs we all know and love. Not even close. And they have a dark blue paint job.

People were pissed, and to get to the bottom of this, I decided to contact the original vendor who sold us all the HIR's and has been the main vendor for them since this all began.

First of all, this pic shows the three existing types of HIR bulb. The GE bulb on the right with the wire in it is the original technology. Remember that wire. It will factor into this discussion in a bit.



This next pic, taken by a member, shows the bulbs he was shipped:




Here is the email I sent

-----Original Message-----
From: Matt Robertson [mailto:matt@lelandwest.com]
Sent: Thursday, January 08, 2009 12:31 PM
To: maxlumens@finemotoring.com
Subject: blue HIR bulbs out there?

I don't know if you remember me, but a couple years ago I was the first buyer for the Chrysler LX platform (Charger, 300, Magnum), and after figuring out how to fit these bulbs, you have run a couple-three group buys with LX Forums. One thru me, another couple more thru other guys. And numerous other individual sales. They have been pretty popular with our members.

I
Recently one of the forum's supporting vendors began advertising Toshiba HIR lights for $30 a *pair*. Word is, he sold over 100 pairs. Now, we are seeing the bulbs delivered and they look like this (click to view, or copy/paste url).

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h1...1390137438.jpg

The vendor swears they are Toshiba bulbs, and that Toshiba added the metal wires to reduce burnout issues... the wire is supposed to be a heat sink. Here, specifically is his story.

http://www.lxforums.com/board/showth...64#post1975764



There are a *lot* of unhappy guys looking for HIR bulbs right now. Can you shed some light on these bulbs and how they are different from yours? Are they, as the vendor is claiming, really HIRs and is it true what he says about the design being changed due to burnouts (I'm not buying it)? They look like the usual fake xenon crap.

And here is the response I received (along with the top bulb pic I posted above)

Hello, Matt- Sorry for the slow reply, I'm at dialup speed today and bogged down. I sorta kinda remember you and the LX Forums stuff, which is as good as it gets with me anymore. Also a guy with a website "foohbar". Too much info, not enough wet-ram.

Although I obviously cannot comment conclusively on a product I haven't seen, I can categorically state that those do not in any way resemble any Toshiba HIR bulbs that I or any other HIR vendor has ever seen. Toshiba only builds the two types of bulbs, HIR9012/HIR2 and HIR9011/HIR1, for the US market. They supply them directly to the OEM vehicle manufacturers around the world and do not sell them in the aftermarket in the US. If they were Toshiba HIRs, they would be clearly marked as such, with "Toshiba" "HIR" "DOT" "E*-code" and country of origin, among other markings cast in the base.

From your forum link, the vendor states:
Guys, these are HIR bulbs (notice the bubble in the bulb). A lot of people had problems with HIR bulbs burning out prematurely (much like silverstars) so the manufacturers added the bar, which acts as a heat sink to bring the heat away from the filliment and keep them from burning out.

This bulb shape is similar to the old original GE bulbs. However, on their bulbs the glass was clear and the capsule was located in the axial centerline. These blue bulbs appear to have the capsule off-center, which will result in beam pattern degradation. The genuine Toshiba HIR bulbs have the filament in the exact same location as the 9000 series bulbs they replace. The bulbous shape is what allowed the infrared reflection, tho simply having a bulge doesn't make it an HIR; putting blue tint on it would also hinder the HIR effect (the infrared would be absorbed to a greater extent). The HIR reflective film is actually a 56-step plasma deposition process, not a simple technology to master. The wire had no effect on heat dissipation, but was for support of the capsule. Despite it, the old GE bulbs had a reputation for fragility and short life. The genuine Toshiba product is very robust, in bulb terms, and lasts as long as or longer than most halogens. I sold bulbs to a customer last week who has 4 years on his first set.

Yes. They are made in a factory in China that is owned by Toshiba and made on equiptment manufactured by Toshiba

Who can say what happens in China? There are several things that argue against this statement, however. The Toshiba HIR plant in China has been running 24/7 since it opened a couple years back. They produce the HIR9012s there, and there is commonly a 3 to 4 month waiting period to obtain product. The bulbs are in high demand worldwide, tempered a bit by recent events. Toshiba is a world-class company with top-notch quality control, and they sell excellent products which command a premium price. Think laptops and nuclear plants. It's not very likely that they would allow their production facility to be used to produce a bulb which is an apparent throwback to the prior technology and has features that appear to be somewhat less than first rate. Remember, Toshiba acquired the HIR tech from GE and then immediately improved it so that there is no longer the necessity for the support wire and a long spindly bulb. It's safe to say that if Toshiba were actually involved in this product, you wouldn't have any questions about its merits.

FYI they are also being sold in H1, H3, H7 and the usual sizes you have been selling for ages. This negates them being HIRs. By DOT definition, HIRs are ONLY the configuration like the Toshibas, ie the wide and/or deep top flange. Any other base and it's something else but an HIR. Remember, it's only a happy accident of regulation that allows the HIRs to be retrofitted into 9000 housings. If they come with 9005/6 bases, they're not HIRs.

Are the ones you are selling still available? The vendor has a good rep but I am thinking that this is a bad deal. Yes, and in fact I just restocked after running out over the holidays. The price stayed the same this time, but I expect that they'll go up eventually; the yen is up by around 25% on the dollar.

I don't know if you remember me, but a couple years ago I was the first buyer for the Chrysler LX platform (Charger, 300, Magnum), and after figuring out how to fit these bulbs, you have run a couple-three group buys with LX Forums. One thru me, another couple more thru other guys. And numerous other individual sales. They have been pretty popular with our members.

I gave up on group buys and just dumped the price down as low as I could live with. I also don't play around with the shipping charges; simple flat rate by weight, same as the post office charges. One thing - I no longer voluntarily sell to Charger owners. Apparently the installation on those cars is terrible and the angled bases just won't fit for love or money. Please warn them away, or at least get them to try with a cheap 9005 bulb before buying.

Well ... there it is.

[Hemi31]

So what did the real Toshiba bulbs actually cost?

[MattRobertson]

The same guy has been selling them on EBay pretty much forever. $28.95 each, delivered. So figure just shy of $60 a pair.

[Schen]

So in other words, for my sake atleast, keep your stock bulbs.

I was going to buy those HIR bulbs but I had a gut feeling about them.

--RS

[da BoMM]

well the good news is, the BLUE bulbs look very much like the original GE HIR bulbs --
it may be that the uncoated performance is that of the HIR technology, but with the BLUE coating the lumens are muted to, lets say for argument sake 30% less than Non-coated output.

So an argument could be made that you get an "HID look" with an HIR bulb that gives slightly more lumens than a standard HALOGEN -- if thats the case, not bad and still a selling point for the "brightest" non-HID 7K bulbs that money can buy.

But, please advertise that, and not that these give the full advantage of HIR bulbs.

[Hemi31]

The same guy has been selling them on EBay pretty much forever. $28.95 each, delivered. So figure just shy of $60 a pair.

Thanks Matt,after the recent aftermarket HID incident I will be ordering these.

[higshemi-less]

Thanks for your investigative work on this one Matt.

[MattRobertson]

it may be that the uncoated performance is that of the HIR technology, but with the BLUE coating the lumens are muted to, lets say for argument sake 30% less than Non-coated output.

So an argument could be made that you get an "HID look" with an HIR bulb that gives slightly more lumens than a standard HALOGEN -- if thats the case, not bad and still a selling point for the "brightest" non-HID 7K bulbs that money can buy.

The message I am receiving is these bulbs have no HIR process associated with them. They are just blue-painted light bulbs.

You guys who have the bulbs can tell for sure. Here is a pic I stole from the hirheadlights.com web site:



See the coating on both the high and low beams? You need to work the camera just right to see it, but the naked eye will have no problem spotting it. It looks slightly luminescent in ordinary light.

So someone with these bulbs go and look: Do the blue bulbs have any such coating?

[Schen]

Don't ban me for this but....

They look like condoms.

Ok I'm done being a child, Matt if I order a set of those high's and leave the stock low's in and swap the stock high's with the fog lights I shouldn't have any problems right?

--RS

[RobAGD]

Erik you will love them, it is what I have been running in my car since the 2nd week of onwer ship.

Something I was wondering about is the bulb degration.

As I have a a solid 3 years on mine, at what point do we want to replace them?

-Robert

[imahemi]

thank you Matt for this investigative work... you just kinda saved me money for now. until I have to spend more on the real deal...lol!!!!

[Cam]

Well if anyone local to me is up for it. I have a lumen meter if you want to test the differences. Actual light output and perceived output can be confusing because of color.

[oldschool]

The same guy has been selling them on EBay pretty much forever. $28.95 each, delivered. So figure just shy of $60 a pair.

I had that exact pair...loved them...but went 55W HID through matt and haven't looked back. They are sitting in a protective case if anyone wants them. Since they are used someone just pay shipping and they are yours. Those eBay ones were the real deal right? How many lumens do HIR's put out anyway...around 1500-2000?

[nhdave]

Something didn't smell right to me when I saw the other GB...

I highly recommend Max's bulbs as well. I ordered the highs and lows and moved my stock highs in as fogs and have been bright and problem free even since.

[Hemi31]

I had that exact pair...loved them...but went 55W HID through matt and haven't looked back. They are sitting in a protective case if anyone wants them. Since they are used someone just pay shipping and they are yours. Those eBay ones were the real deal right? How many lumens do HIR's put out anyway...around 1500-2000?

sold!