Tuning Capabilities???

[Magnum375 Jr]

I am so confused as to why the tuning capabilities of these cars is so hard to get through, and when someone makes a big break thru....DCX is there to stop it. My question is if you buy a 20,000 to 40,000 dollar car, why cant you do whatever the hell you want to with it. And if you succeed in hacking your own computer, why cant you tell others the secret? I've been watching the forums lately and people are having problems with tuning and with Mor**eus getting shut down a while back was like the only light at the end of a long dark tunnel. What is so bad about changing the way your own car runs? Sorry if anyone is confused about what i just wrote, I am just very confused myself.

[done]

Let me add to or remove your confusion. There is a lot of griping about tuning, but at the same time, there are a lot of guys adding tons of horsepower to their cars with the types of tuning that is currently avaialble.

For example, I have added more than 100 HP (up about 1/3 over stock)and the only tuner I use is the SuperChips.

A "supertunerM" is not going to find 40 or 50 free horsepower in your stock engine. If you want more power, you still have to do it the old fashioned way, get a lot of air in and then get all of that air out.

Heads, cams, intakes, headers, high flow cats, high flow exhausts, stroke it, bore it, etc. Nothing has changed except in the details. The guys who know how the details work are also getting the tuning to work. (except for the GSM SC kit ).

If there is no tuning, where are all of those 11 and 12 second cars coming from? No, it is not a game for uninitiated or the lazy, it never was.

[lafrad]

I am so confused as to why the tuning capabilities of these cars is so hard to get through, and when someone makes a big break thru....DCX is there to stop it. My question is if you buy a 20,000 to 40,000 dollar car, why cant you do whatever the hell you want to with it. And if you succeed in hacking your own computer, why cant you tell others the secret? I've been watching the forums lately and people are having problems with tuning and with Mor**eus getting shut down a while back was like the only light at the end of a long dark tunnel. What is so bad about changing the way your own car runs? Sorry if anyone is confused about what i just wrote, I am just very confused myself.

There are 2 issues with this.

1.)
Once upon a time, when your car ran with a battery, starter motor, spark plugs, a distributor, and a carburetor... a Mechanic with a Screwdriver and some wrenches could adjust how the car ran... he could put different parts in and tweak it to idle again. things were 'simple' and the average Joe could eventually work out how to adjust things, and get it to run better.
This is the tuning that people want to do... I personally want to be able to adjust the fuel maps, give a little more spark advance, etc.
To do this, i need to have access to the stored parameters that the computers use to run the car. Memory. "fuel at x%load and y rpm needs to be: <blah>". This is often referred to as "tables". In the english language, these would be called "nouns".

2.)
Nowadays, the entire car has computers all over. Wheel speed is measured by sensors and passed over the CAN bus to other computers to make speedomoters move, gauges run, and keep the car going straight when spinning tires... activate ABS, Airbags, and change volume in the radio... etc etc etc.
There is TONS of functionality that is provided by the team of computers, and most of this is "programming". This is valuable stuff. It has code that people put time, money, and engineering smarts into it so it works like it does. In the english language, these would be "verbs"


Where do the issues come in?
With the VERBS. #2. All of that effort that the Engineers at Dodge have put into making things that WORK are protected pieces of code. If you invented a way to perform traction control, you would be damn protective to make sure people pay you the licensing fees to use it... you worked hard for it!
When it comes to #1: your Traction control might need to know the Tire Size in order to properly function. This is a NOUN... Are you at all worried what size tires are used by the people using Traction Control? Does it negate your hard effort you put into it? not really. Will you loose money if you control that part of how it all works? Probably not.

Well, DCX sold you a $40K car. You want to make changes, so, how do you tune it?
One way: Rip all the computers out of the car, install a standalone computer that has a programming interface, and work from there. The new Standalone computer has its own VERBS, that your purchased, and they wrote a nice programming interface to get at the NOUNS.. so you can get the VERBS to run your engine correctly. You don't get Traction control, drive by wire, MDS, ABS, ETC, Power Seats, Digital Dash, EVIC, Stereo Integration, Airbags, DRL, etc etc etc. They all go away, because you removed the computers taht are there to run the car the way Dodge intended.

The other way: Figure out how to edit the NOUNS held within the car (The fuel/spark/etc tables and memory) in a way that will allow that Stock VERBS (Trac Control, throttle control, injector driver circuits, spark circuits, etc) to function in a way that you would like. You will need to know where to FIND the NOUNS, and you would need to know how to change the NOUNS so they are functional. You also need a tool to be able to do these changes (Starscan does this now). Since the Starscan, itself, is a Verb, you cannot edit it to perform different things than Dodge tells you.

So, a new "Programmer" needs to be designed, with the ability to lay down new Fuel and Spark maps. Superchips currently does some of this. The problem with superchips, is you do not have access to the fuel and spark maps to make adjustments yourself. You cant hack the superchips, because it is protected the same way a Starscan is. The question of "releasing the codes" or such should be turned into: "Release the method it takes to program the stock operating maps" . Then, someone or some company willing to put the time in to interface with the car using that method (API) will have to write the software... and release THAT. Again, THAT is a noun.. you will have to purchase THAT software...

Its all about tools, and drawing the line between Intellectual Property, and just physical values.

[Magnum375 Jr]

First off, thanks much Lafrad, I understood everything that you said there, and it makes me think a little differently. Secondly, is the TCM and PCM upgrades those different computers you were talking about up there, when you mentioned changing the computers?

[formerice]

Things have changed a lot since 2004. The fact is there are a bunch of guys running 11 sec quarter miles already. These are 4500 lb tanks not lightweight Mustangs or Vettes. Now that Chrysler has been sold, things may loosen up in the tuning dept. More importantly tuning will only wring out a few more hp, but a well built bottom end is imperative if your gonna run massive boost or big shot of nitrous.

[lafrad]

First off, thanks much Lafrad, I understood everything that you said there, and it makes me think a little differently. Secondly, is the TCM and PCM upgrades those different computers you were talking about up there, when you mentioned changing the computers?

There are quite a few computers that actually do all the work that needs to get done for you to drive to work with your heated seats, memory mirrors, bluetooth, etc. and they are all tied together.

Superchips/Hyperpac actually DO change the "NOUNS" (the physical data numbers) in the computers... and I believe thats ALL they change...

The Shift TSB from Dodge, or the update ECM software for better A/C function, or the Update BCM for better auto headlight function are all "Verb" changes... those are value-added things taht Dodge will protect vigorously....

Ripping out all the stock computers and going to a standalone... That is a mighty big challenge right there!

[lafrad]

Things have changed a lot since 2004. The fact is there are a bunch of guys running 11 sec quarter miles already. These are 4500 lb tanks not lightweight Mustangs or Vettes. Now that Chrysler has been sold, things may loosen up in the tuning dept. More importantly tuning will only wring out a few more hp, but a well built bottom end is imperative if your gonna run massive boost or big shot of nitrous.

I have a feeling I have a lot more more than "a few HP" from a properly tuned computer setup.

Yea, i may be running 12's as is, but I also am fighting the computer for the right timing and air/fuel ratios....

[Tim@NCTSLLC]

All very well said, and of course we gearheads would love to have full access. Myself, I think it a simple matter, sell me the box/software, whatever for $XXX, code it to MY VIN, and void my powertrain warranty. I have no problem with that. Hell, there are plenty of over 36,000 mile 06 LX bodies out there the warranty is already expired on. Make the box so if tampered with/opened, it wipes the electronics/program. Easy to do if you have the keys.

Traction control? Everyone wants it turned off. MDS? Most people modding wants it gone. With the right stand alone design, it should not be that hard (once the "box" was made, to integrate and/or modify the other systems to make it work. There are plenty of ABS systems similar in design that work just fine without all the PCM control. Yes, some things would have to go, probably at least part or all of the stability program, but overall, it has to be possible. I have driven for over 30 years with no problem without all the gee wiz stuff.

Ever drove a 400+HP Road Runner with NO power steering, and manual drum brakes on each corner with polyglass tires?? What a ride!

Think back, look at the present, how many aftermarket full function stereos, seat controls, headlight and shutdown controls, and on and on, are available? Once we get over the initial release hump, we have talked about getting a stripper LX and just gutting it and working with some electronics wizards to see what we can do. Who knows, it might be easier than we think. We might even be able to put an open project together and get some really smart individuals each working on one small piece of the pie. In numbers, there is power to do the impossible.

We are having good success with the piggyback units we are using, I have amassed a huge amount of data working through all the hurdles. I am sure I could build a "system" that would function just perfectly fine, only if I had the time to devote solely to it for 6 - 12 months, less if more were involved.

One other word of advice, be cautious about running out for every single update, they are not all they are cracked up to be, and I have seen every one since August 2005, and each is worse from a workability standpoint.

Anyone want to build a control system or piece of one???

Tim - CIS