CAI / Air intakes 5.7 - real confused

[Sublimeon24s]

I dont understand how all this Air intake stuff / info can be so versatile..........I mean the color red is red........2 plus 2 = 4, isnt there any 100% solid answers when it comes to intakes?

One minute I hear from alot of people that the "end" of the IAT sensor sticking out of the intake wont affect anything if its hot because its just the plug and the actual sensor is inside the tube, then I hear the opposite from alot of people too.

Alot of people say it doesnt matter if the tube gets hot because the air is moving through it so fast it doesnt have time to get hot, alot others say the tube being hot messes up the airflow and to make sure you get plastic, but alot of big brand intakes are aluminum like mine

Someone on chargerforums stated that they sold their AFE 2 and put a K&N drop in back in their factory air intake and notice better throttle response / pep

Some say the Factory Daytona / SRT air intakes are just as good as any other aftermarket intakes, others say the tubes on aftermarket intakes are what makes them better b/c they are smoother inside.

Understandable, there will be little tweeks here and there to make things better, but isnt there atleast a blueprint with intakes as far as whats right and whats wrong?

I currently have the C&L on my charger

On my lower airbox, i cut a big chunk out of the front as C&L suggest, to pull air from behind the headlight therefore when sitting still, alot of hotter air can enter that area.................30 min ago I took the stock lower airbox (un modified) out of my dads daytona and ran it under my C&L instead of my cut one........Went for some runs and didnt really notice any difference in response but when i came back, opened the hood, and put my hand inside the shroud by the filter it was cooler then when using the cut airbox.................I switched out airboxes right away to my cut airbox, went for the same runs..........engine temp in evic seemed to drop alot faster but still no difference in response.........when I got home I popped the hood and again put my hand inside the shroud by the filter to find the air much hotter around it........

At this point im really confused about intakes in general

[MattRobertson]

You aren't alone. There are no shortage of self-appointed intake experts whose butt dynos are very finely calibrated. Take a look at the Mods Face-Off subforum here and look at all of the intakes tested. If it looks like a lot of info to digest... it is. But you'll take a lot away from the lessons learned over the course of those events.

...

You gotta test stuff. Control variables etc. like what you see at the MFO and GIFO events. Then take it to the track and test again to see if the dyno results reflect themselves at the track. MFO/GIFO did that too. Thats the kind of stuff you can trust over and above cheerleading and fanboy reviews.



The bit you quoted about the IAT sensor plug is a new one. Never heard that one before. Whats the supposed solution? If you insulate the plug you'll be fine for a few minutes and then your insulation will hold heat *in* once the think gets soaked, which it will of course.

[dudeiwin86]

go with a gsm or rdp style and dont look back

i have my afe intake sitting in the garage and swapped it for a used GSM intake i bought off here for 175 bucks.

i notice barely better power from a dig with this one. no difference in the high rpms, the only thing i dont have so much now is the intake GULP noise when you floor it, nmo big deal tho, couldnt hear it over my catless JBA anyway.

i definately prefer the GSM style now after experiencing it myself, and i used to be a big fanboi of the afe for the plastic intake and big tube/filter.

the only improvement i can think of on teh GSM is the metal tube, gets a bit hot in traffic, but stays a lot cooler than even my plastic AFE intake after a long open road drive due to the cooler air coming in.

is the RDP molded plastic intake? thats the only other intake that might be better than GSM in my opinion., ONLY if it is indeed plastic. i do NOT like his design around the hole where it goes into the bumper area... its one solid tube that goes thru the hole and has wiggle room to rub. the gsm intake has a plate that fits there, with a tube that stucks thru on both sides. the filter is clamped to the underside of this plate/tube. while the intake tube is clamped to the throttle body, and the tube on the top side of this plate, which gives a good seal, and no rubbing.

last but not least... i find the airhammer, another with a large following to be largely for the noise it makes, and cosmetic reasons.

[MattRobertson]

is the gsm unit still using a hard 90-degree elbow? That never seemed to me to be a good thing but nobody has ever tested that specific feature... although the GSM intake was dyno and track tested, with those results published. I notice the rdp has a wide radius elbow that should offer better flow. But the endpiece construction indeed does not sound particularly impressive.

last but not least... i find the airhammer, another with a large following to be largely for the noise it makes, and cosmetic reasons.

How did you figure that?

[done]

go with a gsm or rdp style and dont look back

i have my afe intake sitting in the garage and swapped it for a used GSM intake i bought off here for 175 bucks.

i notice barely better power from a dig with this one. no difference in the high rpms, the only thing i dont have so much now is the intake GULP noise when you floor it, nmo big deal tho, couldnt hear it over my catless JBA anyway.

i definately prefer the GSM style now after experiencing it myself, and i used to be a big fanboi of the afe for the plastic intake and big tube/filter.

the only improvement i can think of on teh GSM is the metal tube, gets a bit hot in traffic, but stays a lot cooler than even my plastic AFE intake after a long open road drive due to the cooler air coming in.

is the RDP molded plastic intake? thats the only other intake that might be better than GSM in my opinion., ONLY if it is indeed plastic. i do NOT like his design around the hole where it goes into the bumper area... its one solid tube that goes thru the hole and has wiggle room to rub. the gsm intake has a plate that fits there, with a tube that stucks thru on both sides. the filter is clamped to the underside of this plate/tube. while the intake tube is clamped to the throttle body, and the tube on the top side of this plate, which gives a good seal, and no rubbing.

last but not least... i find the airhammer, another with a large following to be largely for the noise it makes, and cosmetic reasons.

Although you may be sincere in your opinions, there is no factual basis for them presented in your post. That is the point that the original poster was making.

[Sublimeon24s]

Guys,

I just got back from 20 min of driving pretty hard.......Yes im in Orlando, FL and its about 100 degrees out but does this sound right or is something wrong here?

The tube on my C&L is so hot if you put a single finger on it for 3 seconds, it would probably split your skin.........I might be able to cook a very thin piece of meat on it........And the filter......if I touch the actual filter, its not hot but deff not ambient.......slightly warm

My engine cover is off and I have the drivers side lower radiator baffle removed to allow more air into the area and through the factory hole in the car under the intake assembly..........I would think both things would help keep things cooler but this sucker is HOT........cant see how its possibly beneficial for performance!

When I come home from a hard drive, and open the hood I can feel the heat on me over the fl heat outside!

I also have a 170 t-stat but no predator yet so I cant adjust fans or anything.........maybe not being able to lower my fans yet is causing everything

Either way, my car feels like its deff getting robbed of power big time!

[street hooligan]

I dont understand how all this Air intake stuff / info can be so versatile..........I mean the color red is red........2 plus 2 = 4, isnt there any 100% solid answers when it comes to intakes?

One minute I hear from alot of people that the "end" of the IAT sensor sticking out of the intake wont affect anything if its hot because its just the plug and the actual sensor is inside the tube, then I hear the opposite from alot of people too.

well heres my opinion on a few things. now i am biased to my answers cause i actually worked for a fabrication machine shop company that deals in high volume for the vw audi community and those guys are picky. we did things like build serious engines, turbo kits, and one off metal and plastic fabed objects.

from my knowledge i would have to say once an object is heatsoaked, it will soak the entire object and transfer to what its in direct contact with. by this, i mean if you took you intake, with IAT sensor in the bung in a giant pan with hot bubbly water thats steaming, and place it so it hangs out of the pan with the sensor portion of the tube completely out of pan, the sensor would still be hot due to heat transfer. now in an engine bay its no different, once that pipe gets hot, it will transfer heat to the entire IAT sensor.(why some people relocate the sensor) the point is not to let the IAT get heat soaked(hard i know) but the more its heat soaked, the more likely kr will show its ugly face faster.

Alot of people say it doesnt matter if the tube gets hot because the air is moving through it so fast it doesnt have time to get hot, alot others say the tube being hot messes up the airflow and to make sure you get plastic, but alot of big brand intakes are aluminum like mine

again this is debatable, however; in my car i wouldnt want the pipe hot, i will do what i can to keep it cool. every bit counts on a NA motor as far as i am concerned. would you want your pipe to be hot?

Someone on chargerforums stated that they sold their AFE 2 and put a K&N drop in back in their factory air intake and notice better throttle response / pep

that was me, and yes i did install my SRT/Daytona air box. the throttle response didnt feel any different than the afe, but the car felt more tourqey(spelling?) through out the entire band. what i can tell you is i did 3 pulls with afe and helt the filter, and held the pipe, both were warm, but in no way hot like my old mopar unit would have been, with the srt intake after the 3 pulls it was cool, and when i say cool i mean considerably cooler than the afe was, i held the tube as well as the intake box. i will note that the tube was warmer the closer my hand got to the throttle body.(heat transfer from the motor)

Some say the Factory Daytona / SRT air intakes are just as good as any other aftermarket intakes, others say the tubes on aftermarket intakes are what makes them better b/c they are smoother inside.

this is true, the factory SRT/daytona box is a very nice design, it gathers air from a cooler air pocket, it has a venturii built into the top airbox lid, and tube is a megaphone effect(much like hammer and afe which is a great design for an intake) the only draw back i have to it is the accordian portion of the tube which is not even really that bad on the inside, even though the rest of the tube is just as smooth if not smoother than any other aftermarket intake on the inside of the actual tube. i have a stock rt and a SRT airbox and the differences in them is HUGE. Now the tube does play a role in the intake track due to its efficiency to smooth the air, but since the insides of aftermarket units and the srt units is the same theres no debate on one tube vs another as far as i am concern. RT stays about 3.4 inches from inlet to outlet, while the SRT starts at 3.4 and ends in 4.7 were it meets the airbox, the afe starts at about 3.6 and ends in 5, and i dont know the dimmensions of the hammer.

Understandable, there will be little tweeks here and there to make things better, but isnt there atleast a blueprint with intakes as far as whats right and whats wrong?

i belive its all about what people want, they have ideas imbeded in their head and they follow it. basicly its about getting cooler air to en engine, cooler air is denser which atomizes better when mixed with fuel to create more power in a sense. usually cars that have MAF sensors see more actual gains besides sound than cars with map sensors, thats just typically what i have seen since i have been around my fair share of cars.

I currently have the C&L on my charger

On my lower airbox, i cut a big chunk out of the front as C&L suggest, to pull air from behind the headlight therefore when sitting still, alot of hotter air can enter that area.................30 min ago I took the stock lower airbox (un modified) out of my dads daytona and ran it under my C&L instead of my cut one........Went for some runs and didnt really notice any difference in response but when i came back, opened the hood, and put my hand inside the shroud by the filter it was cooler then when using the cut airbox.................I switched out airboxes right away to my cut airbox, went for the same runs..........engine temp in evic seemed to drop alot faster but still no difference in response.........when I got home I popped the hood and again put my hand inside the shroud by the filter to find the air much hotter around it........

all i can say here is the key is to seal away unwanted engine bar air, and modifying your lower box allowed more engine bay air to enter the filter stream.

At this point im really confused about intakes in general

(i finally was able to use this icon)

dont be, theres no right and no wrong, its all personal pref. Theres guys out there with fast cars on stock air boxes, guys with fast cars with your normal under hood intake, and theres guys out there who dont belive in that mumbo jumbo, then theres guys like techoCD who claim 20hp from a intake.

i am in noway an expert, but i belive what i belive from being around cars my whole life, my father and my mother and my brother all had modified cars and we love them. i persuied my dreams and got a few ASE's under my belt and worked with cars for quite some time. so with that being said i am strong on my opinions, i have seen what worked for me on my cars.

also for what its worth in about a week, i am unleashing my intake design that are parts available from any hardware/car shop that i believe to be a better true cold air design

[MattRobertson]

great post, street hooligan. I don't agree with all of what you say but its obvious you are the type who looks at stuff and works with it rather than reading a magazine ad and posting up. Thats how you get to *know* stuff, by doing it.

A thing about air sensor relocation: I have always operated under the assumption that mfrs are doing that to lower the intake air charge, not keep the sensor plug from being heat soaked. I've measured temp inside the elbow and there is about a 6-degree bump (at speed) coming from the inside of the throttle body... radiant heat from the engine itself. Move the sensor away from the block and you lose that bump.

While I have gotten rid of most of my intakes out of a simple need for space (my AirHammer is #10, counting my original stocker, the ones I have bought, the ones I have built and the two prototypes a mfr built on my car) I still have my stock 5.7 airbox, and a complete SRT airbox/tube, which is the same as the Daytona unit you are talking about.

I ran some temp and performance tests on both a few months ago, looking to see what I could see about how it handles heat and whether it could be used on my big motor. The result was impressive for temperature control. You cannot heatsoak the SRT intake. It climbs up in temperature just like a short ram intake located entirely under the hood would do. However once heated up in slow going, it cooled down much faster, right down to ambient if I hit the highway. Even under the most harsh circumstances (110-degree heat) it would not stay soaked and I could easily get the sensor to read 165-degrees or so.

But as a performer, it was horrible. Compared to the AirHammer, performance was appalling. For my 6.4L stroker motor at least, the stock airbox was totally outgunned. Whether that would be true of a more stock motor I have no idea, but it definitely has its limits.

One note about the use of metal tubes -- what gets hot fast can get cool fast too. You don't get that fast cooling with plastic. All you have to do with a meta tube is move the car and that tube should be cool to the touch close to immediately so long as its an alloy, and so long as you've done what you need to do to get air into the engine bay (lower radiator baffle mod). Steel, on the other hand, not so much :-)

[RT NOMAD]

One note about the use of metal tubes -- what gets hot fast can get cool fast too. You don't get that fast cooling with plastic. All you have to do with a meta tube is move the car and that tube should be cool to the touch close to immediately so long as its an alloy, and so long as you've done what you need to do to get air into the engine bay (lower radiator baffle mod). Steel, on the other hand, not so much :-)

This is a common misunderstanding among those who haven't studied heat transfer.
Like Matt said, if it heats up quickly it also cools off quickly. That's the coefficient of heat thingy with all materials.
So, all you need is a temperature gradiant (difference) and the heat will transfer from the hotter material to the cooler material. That rate of change (either hotter or cooler) is dependent on the materials coefficient of heat.

[RT NOMAD]

I make two assumptions (maybe not always a good thing, and maybe I'm all wet).

1. Mopar probably designed the intake to complement to exhaust. Therefore to improve the intake without improving the exhaust would be a waste of effort and money.

2. Don't concern yourself with getting the air in until you can make sure you can get the gases out.

I know these are pretty such the same reasons, but there is a subtle difference.

[MattRobertson]

The tube on my C&L is so hot if you put a single finger on it for 3 seconds, it would probably split your skin.........I might be able to cook a very thin piece of meat on it........And the filter......if I touch the actual filter, its not hot but deff not ambient.......slightly warm

My engine cover is off and I have the drivers side lower radiator baffle removed to allow more air into the area and through the factory hole in the car under the intake assembly

hmmm. I missed this post earlier.

It sounds like you have done the right things to bring air in. When I was talking earlier about alloy tubes cooling fast I didn't say that my experience is with thin aluminum tubing. First from my old K&N Typhoon, later with the two Weapon-R prototypes and then from the Frankentake. They all cooled off *fast*. So fast if I went to WOT, jumped to 100 mph, slammed on the brakes, pulled over, jumped out and put my hand on the intake tube (remembering to open the hood first) the tube was still only a little warm.

Now, my stainless steel AirHammer stays warmer longer. No two ways about it. But then again its steel.

But if you have an alloy unit that is staying *that* hot, it sounds like a manufacturing/design issue.

I *really* want to test one of these at the next MFO event. I've never personally seen one.

[Leadfootluke]

I actually met a guy with a Challenger SRT8 and the C&L on it.

Was warm, a long time after it was turned off. Its as big as I thought, and as ugly too, lol.

[dudeiwin86]

i believe, with the C&L, that the heat is transferring directly from the engine, to the throttle body, and into the tube, and the warm engine physically is what keeps it from cooling off quickly, that was what i noticed with my AFE.

granted radiant temps dont help, but still, direct contact is moving a lot of heat into that metal tube.

as far as hammer being a showpiece as i said--
i am a VERY firm believer that you cant dyno test an intake to see real world gains.
many people will test with hood open, and this can change the dynamic of the gains shown from filters like afe/c&l/AH.

i admit, as was suggested, that i have no "factual" data as far as recording temps etc. however i am pretty well practiced in mechanical design(for buildings- as in air/conditioning, heat, flow dynamics etc)

one thing ive learned is to NEVER oversize a duct. if you oversize, you will have too much pressure drop by the time you get to your air diffuser outlet in an air conditioning system, and you wont be able to adequately condition the space.

to me, it seems like the big tube designs suffer from not only location and heat transfer, but the tube may be too large, and the air not at high enough pressure to move at a high velocity thru the tube.

which presents the arguement, does the gsm intake/rdp cause a restriction by being too small?

i feel it does not, and is almost perfectly sized for stock displacement even on a 6.1L.... now 6.4? 7.0? i cant say for certain, but i do not believe ANY intakes on the market today pose noticeable restriction on a naturally aspirated engine.

there is a forum member, and i can never remember his exact name, but its named after his motorcycle. its like ... CHR540 or something.... he has been thru probably every intake on the market, and still sticks with his GSM(until he just recently ordered the RDP i believe) he was showing CONSISTENT gains in his ET's at the track using the GSM over afe or c&l or hammer. and he spent a lot of time making consistent runs on each, i hope will chime in, because he was preaching the gsm/rdp style intake before anyone hardly gave them a thought, and now, after switching, i understand why.

one thing i meant to touch on more is filter location. i feel that being down in the bumper, with the lower flap of the radiator baffle removed, the gsm/rdp style is being force fed fresh air. as in... its got a pocket full of brand new air constantly coming to it.
the bigtube/filter styles seem to have to "suck" to retreive the air, because there is not air pressure building on that side and area and i feel this is another reason that they may not be building enough velocity/pressure inside the tube.

*editing this in* one thing i LOVE about teh GSM design(which RDP does NOT use from the pictures i remember seeing--) is the relocation of the IAT sensor, they move it down right above the plate so it is MUCH further away from the engine, suffering a lot less radiant heat soak, and argueable soak from nearly direct contact with the throttle body. it recieves nothing but the freshest air and helps the PCM read this and pull less timing due to hot air temps.

alsso, the GSM uses a rubber elbow at the intake throttle body to tube coupling. so you have a rubber elbow band clamped to the tb, and after the elbow it is band clamped to the tube that heads towards the plate/filter.... which gives a LOT less heat transfer from TB to intake tube in my opinion.
*done editing, finish original post frmo here*


i totally admit that what i say IS theory. not 100% fact, but i think its logical theory, and based on the training i have recieved from various mechanical engineers, it is my basis of choice.

i also know that i have used both teh afe, and the gsm. and i LARGELY prefer the gsm.

frankly i dont think there is a real difference in horsepower.. and that it is more of the way teh car behaves from a dig/roll with 0 throttle to WOT. which is where i feel the GSM is more potent.

i also think it may be far more noticeable in the south where we are already plagued by hot humid weather, and the engine bay stays VERY hot, i think getting a nice fresh gulp as soon as you hit the throttle is a lot more effective, and once moving, has much better air delivery than a bigtube design WHEN MOVING<--

such is my opinion, fact or not, i think it helps give everyone a few different things to look at and think about when choosing their intake, and i hope i have helped in some way

[dudeiwin86]

I make two assumptions (maybe not always a good thing, and maybe I'm all wet).

1. Mopar probably designed the intake to complement to exhaust. Therefore to improve the intake without improving the exhaust would be a waste of effort and money.

2. Don't concern yourself with getting the air in until you can make sure you can get the gases out.

I know these are pretty such the same reasons, but there is a subtle difference.

actually AEM designed the Intake and the headers, and uses anotehr companies cats... Borla designed the catback exhaust.

did they work together? i doubt it.

i also think that a compeltely stock exhaust system is not going to be a greater restriction by just adding an intake. its a restriction yes, but i think the gains from an intake alone are going to be seen even on a stock exhaust.

[RT NOMAD]

one thing ive learned is to NEVER oversize a duct. if you oversize, you will have too much pressure drop by the time you get to your air diffuser outlet in an air conditioning system, and you wont be able to adequately condition the space.

The above is theory applicable to exhausting gases, not suction side, which the intake is. Ideal suction intake is a tapering cone design - nonlinear in shape, I'm guessing in the order of a parabolic shape.