Best case yet for t-stat/fan mod

[noesp]

This just came up on c-forum : http://www.chargerforums.com/forums/...ad.php?t=45049

Figured you'd all like to take a look at hard proof that these Hemi's don't like heat.

[ChargerGirl]

Just ordered the fan mod from you after watching rsmeanie install his.

[JonzMgnm]

Thanks for posting the link, Joe. RTA posted his results up on this board earlier today. I saw it after I spoke to you. Good stuff for sure!


Thanks again, buddy!

[GeekGrl]

BTW: I just noticed my wife was logged in, so this is feros not geekGrl

I was'nt sure where to put this..so here it sits.

Last night I installed (finally) my Cool-it and No ESP.
Cool-it took me about 20 min, easy to do, great directions.
I also did the Motorad 180ish T-stat, and Police Oil cooler too.

The NoESP I had to go back a check my conections, I am not complaining, but I felt the splice conectors that came with the module were cheap. For me not a problem, I used my own connectors and everything went smooth.
The directions are cut and dry and easy to follow, while I was in that area I also installed my IPod adaptor kit.

I should have a vidoe soon on how well the NoESP works.

Thanx Mr. nosesp!!!

[nhdave]

Last night I installed (finally) my Cool-it and No ESP.
Cool-it took me about 20 min, easy to do, great directions.
I also did the Motorad 180ish T-stat, and Police Oil cooler too.

Hey Feros, not to hijack but do you have a parts # list for the cooler? You can PM me or add it to the oil cooler write-up if you like..

[feros]

Playing with my NoEsp

[AWD_Guy]

In my opinion there is absolutly no reason the hemi should be any more "heat sensitive" than any other motor out there. It's an aluminum headed motor with a composite intake. In fact with it's efficent combustion chamber it should be less prone to detonation than a conventional head.

What that test proves is that chrysler engineers put in a very mild timing curve from the factory. Under normal conditions there is no reason the engine should be running under 195 deg except for when it's warming up. Hopefully the new programmers identify the temperature referenced timing table and put in a little more agressive curve to keep timing at peak values till say 205 or so.

[Hemi31]

In my opinion there is absolutly no reason the hemi should be any more "heat sensitive" than any other motor out there. It's an aluminum headed motor with a composite intake. In fact with it's efficent combustion chamber it should be less prone to detonation than a conventional head.

What that test proves is that chrysler engineers put in a very mild timing curve from the factory. Under normal conditions there is no reason the engine should be running under 195 deg except for when it's warming up. Hopefully the new programmers identify the temperature referenced timing table and put in a little more agressive curve to keep timing at peak values till say 205 or so.

So you know more than the rest of us who have been doing trial and error on these for almost 4 years now?I guess I should say welcome to the forum and get ready for a huge disappointment if you think a 195* Hemi will run as well as a 175* Hemi.

[JonzMgnm]

So you know more than the rest of us who have been doing trial and error on these for almost 4 years now?I guess I should say welcome to the forum and get ready for a huge disappointment if you think a 195* Hemi will run as well as a 175* Hemi.

Did you have to bring out the "Pimp Hand"?

[1FST4DR]

So you know more than the rest of us who have been doing trial and error on these for almost 4 years now?I guess I should say welcome to the forum and get ready for a huge disappointment if you think a 195* Hemi will run as well as a 175* Hemi.

Im going to second this.Especially on the 6.1s..Do a little search on the forum my new friend and you will see what he is talking about..Sometimes what you read from a manual isnt always true..

[AWD_Guy]

What I'm saying is that a 200 degree hemi will run damn close to a 175 degree hemi IF and it's a big IF the timing stays the same. That test proves that the timing changes DRASTICALLY. It's not all in the heat, in fact my 10 plus years of tuning on anything that burns gas and 5 years of custom tuning fuel injected chevys and fords has tought me that even 2 degrees of timing can be worth over 20 hp in either direction.

I'm not saying that you are not going faster at 180 degrees, you most certainly are. I'm saying that it's most likely the timing that is causing the power boost. High engine heat doesn't necesarily mean the air you are burning is any hotter. In fact air moves so fast through the intake and heads that it has very little time to soak up any appreciably amount of heat.

What really jumps out at me is the how the timing curve looks. You don't even get 20 degrees of timing untill 4300 rpm. Timing also maxes out at around 25 degrees, which may or may not be enough. I do know that most performance engines can take their max timing by 3000 rpm's, it appears chrysler engineers bring it in VERY gradually. Probably to give you that smooth push in the back instead of ripping your head off down low.

I apalogize my post count isn't as big as yours......but it doesn't mean that I don't know what I'm talking about.

[Hemi31]

What I'm saying is that a 200 degree hemi will run damn close to a 175 degree hemi IF and it's a big IF the timing stays the same. That test proves that the timing changes DRASTICALLY. It's not all in the heat, in fact my 10 plus years of tuning on anything that burns gas and 5 years of custom tuning fuel injected chevys and fords has tought me that even 2 degrees of timing can be worth over 20 hp in either direction.

I'm not saying that you are not going faster at 180 degrees, you most certainly are. I'm saying that it's most likely the timing that is causing the power boost. High engine heat doesn't necesarily mean the air you are burning is any hotter. In fact air moves so fast through the intake and heads that it has very little time to soak up any appreciably amount of heat.

What really jumps out at me is the how the timing curve looks. You don't even get 20 degrees of timing untill 4300 rpm. Timing also maxes out at around 25 degrees, which may or may not be enough. I do know that most performance engines can take their max timing by 3000 rpm's, it appears chrysler engineers bring it in VERY gradually. Probably to give you that smooth push in the back instead of ripping your head off down low.

I apalogize my post count isn't as big as yours......but it doesn't mean that I don't know what I'm talking about.

The timing is an issue yes...we all agree on that and have been trying just about anything to get it advanced......the 6.1's have been especially left out on this.But these engines suffer a heat soak that absolutely kills them.There has not yet been any tuning that will cure this.
And it has nothing to do with your post count....but your time spent with these cars.We all know about timing.......as your post has shown you have no idea what we have been dealing with the past few years.....if you are a fast learner you will be as frustrated as the rest of us soon........unless the Diablo actually works.

[MikeEast]

Just putting in a simple jumper, forcing my large fan on - lowers my engine temp down into the 170's (I have a 170 degree thermostat) which is enough to drop my 1/4 mile times a couple of 10th's.

Heat kills these motors in a very noticable way...

Mike

[AWD_Guy]

Like I said, I don't doubt for one minute that you lose serious time when you are warmer than 180, I just don't think there is anything mechanical about the hemi engine that would cause it to be more temperature sensitve than any other engine out there right now. In fact the hemi combustion chamber "should" be more efficent and take more timing faster than a conventional head.

The term "heat soak" can be a bit misleading, there are two downsides to a hot engine. First and the most important is that the engine is going to be more prone to detonation. Which shouldn't be a factor with an aluminum hemi head. The second is of course heating the intake charge. Like I mentioned, air spends so little time in the intake and heads that 20 or 30 degree hotter engine temps might only raise air temps 2 or 3 degrees. It appears from the timing curve in that test that the engineers either fighting detonation or simply trying to smooth out power delivery. I'm betting on smoothing out the power curve or trying to keep the tranny alive.

Has anyone seen a similar test with some kind of programmer installed? I can't prove it yet, but I'm guessing that the programmers on the market right now don't have a full handle on the LX computers. They are finding a way to change the fueling and timing globaly, but not getting to all the adder and modifier tables. Having participated in actually hacking ecm's before I know that there is no way these guys are figuring everything out as quickly as they came to market with their tunes. It took years for a group of very talented programmer/car guys to hack out the GM ECM's from the 80's, ecm's of today are so much more complicated that it would take years and years of work to reverse engineer. The SRT engineers themselfs say they scramble the programming with an random number generator to change the code for every model year, which would pretty much make it unhackable. I'm excited about the predator because of how quickly they were able to universaly release every LX platform and even include the trucks and jeeps. To me this shows that they got help from the OEM's..... as in paid big bucks to get a commented hack of the code for every model and every year of chrysler product.

Maybe I'm a retard, but I see guys dropping major time once they get some comprehensive tuning software like the ford and chevy guys have. It appears that predator plans to do just that....we'll have to wait and see.

[Hemi31]

Like I said, I don't doubt for one minute that you lose serious time when you are warmer than 180, I just don't think there is anything mechanical about the hemi engine that would cause it to be more temperature sensitve than any other engine out there right now. In fact the hemi combustion chamber "should" be more efficent and take more timing faster than a conventional head.

The term "heat soak" can be a bit misleading, there are two downsides to a hot engine. First and the most important is that the engine is going to be more prone to detonation. Which shouldn't be a factor with an aluminum hemi head. The second is of course heating the intake charge. Like I mentioned, air spends so little time in the intake and heads that 20 or 30 degree hotter engine temps might only raise air temps 2 or 3 degrees. It appears from the timing curve in that test that the engineers either fighting detonation or simply trying to smooth out power delivery. I'm betting on smoothing out the power curve or trying to keep the tranny alive.

Has anyone seen a similar test with some kind of programmer installed? I can't prove it yet, but I'm guessing that the programmers on the market right now don't have a full handle on the LX computers. They are finding a way to change the fueling and timing globaly, but not getting to all the adder and modifier tables. Having participated in actually hacking ecm's before I know that there is no way these guys are figuring everything out as quickly as they came to market with their tunes. It took years for a group of very talented programmer/car guys to hack out the GM ECM's from the 80's, ecm's of today are so much more complicated that it would take years and years of work to reverse engineer. The SRT engineers themselfs say they scramble the programming with an random number generator to change the code for every model year, which would pretty much make it unhackable. I'm excited about the predator because of how quickly they were able to universaly release every LX platform and even include the trucks and jeeps. To me this shows that they got help from the OEM's..... as in paid big bucks to get a commented hack of the code for every model and every year of chrysler product.

Maybe I'm a retard, but I see guys dropping major time once they get some comprehensive tuning software like the ford and chevy guys have. It appears that predator plans to do just that....we'll have to wait and see.

Actually detonation is a huge problem with the Hemi.This is the root cause of most of the Hemi engine failures.And so far we have not yet seen anything from the Diablo.......except for a few headaches already.....hopefully they get it sorted quick.Guys will drop their times once tuning is sorted,but I am not convinced that Diablo or anyone else has that figured out.Like I said before.....you will find yourself frustrated soon.These cars are not like the others.GM and Ford help with aftermarket tuning.....Chrysler keeps it a big secret and changes everything way to often to keep others from getting a good foothold.