Standalone ECU interest?

[4DRHTRD]

I'm here at SEMA and I had a long conversation with Haltech concerning their stand alone and the viability of doing one for our cars. In talking with him his concern was that one setup wouldn't work for all of the LX cars. Since I'm fairly new to the programming I thought I'd present his questions to me to the members.
1. Should a wire harness developed for all LX cars work across all platforms?
2. Has there been changes in the protocols between the years/makes/models? If so how extensive has these changes been?
3. If they were able to come to market with a stand alone controller without having a plug and play harness would you still be interested?

The key to these ECU's is for guys who are modified (especially boosted applications) you could tune on the road without a dyno and relatively easily including a self adjusting tune. Their ECU's will also control nitrous, meth injection and timing retard/advance.


Here's a list of the top of line models capabilities:
The Haltech E11V2 ECU is an ECU capable of controlling sequential injection on 4,5,6,8 and 10 cylinder applications. With 14 channels capable of controlling injection and ignition duties, the E11V2 can support most modern engines with multi-coil ignition systems, as well as conventional distributor ignition systems.In addition to controlling fuel and spark, the E11V2 can control various auxiliary engine functions such as:

- Stepper motor and BAC/IAC closed loop Idle Control
- Soft cut rev limiter
- Closed loop boost
- O2 sensor closed loop mixture control
- On board data logging (up to 200 samples per second)
- User definable mapping points
- Tuning via TPS with Manifold pressure correction - Ideal for those multi-throttle body turbo cars such as, GTiR Pulsars and GTR Skylines.
- Numerous correction maps to ensure smooth drivability under varying operating conditions Windows Software

Typical Applications:

- Control of fuel injection on modified engines
- Conversion from carburetion to fuel injection
- Race and rally applications of all description
- Design and development purposes
- Educational use by universities and technical colleges
- Original equipment in cars and motorcycle

The E11V2 Flying Lead Kit includes:

ECU Programmable Computer, Flying Lead* Milspec type Main Wiring Harness, 3 power relays, Programming Cable, Fuse Block Assembly on Harness, Programming CD, Instruction Manual (on CD) and Haltech Stickers

[hemituner]

Personally I think it would be a waste to do a stand-alone. I am confident the factory controller will support 1k WHEEL power with no ill effects. I wouldn't want to give up any of the factory features of these vehicles.
Hope this helps
A.J. (HEMITUNER)

[Super T]

Only if they can make the rest of the car function 100% as stock... i.e., no faked-out idiot lights or codes. I don't see why there would be any limit, literally, to what the stock setup can handle w/ tuning.

[RobAGD]

05-06 and SOME 07 are the same

Some 07's were a hybrid bus

08+ are a new faster bus system.

What would be cool would something that uses the factory loom

-R

[Super T]

^ And I thought some super early 05's were a hybrid bus too?

[RobAGD]

Super T - humm Yep, forgot about the fubar on the stupid early ones, itsthe tCM bus on them.

-R

[4DRHTRD]

They bad part about the factory ECU is it doesn't understand boost and can cause driveability issues, stand alone's would fix tipin issues and other tuning fubars of using a system that's not designed for boost.

[Super T]

They bad part about the factory ECU is it doesn't understand boost and can cause driveability issues, stand alone's would fix tipin issues and other tuning fubars of using a system that's not designed for boost.

Not sure where you get your information but the stock PCM has tables built in for boost that can be (and are) activated via CMR/Diablo and do a fine job.

[4DRHTRD]

Not sure where you get your information but the stock PCM has tables built in for boost that can be (and are) activated via CMR/Diablo and do a fine job.

That's good info, I was unaware of those tables being there and that the system could easily reference a 2 and hopefully 3 bar map sensor.
Thanks!

[Super T]

That's good info, I was unaware of those tables being there and that the system could easily reference a 2 and hopefully 3 bar map sensor.
Thanks!

No sweat. Yeah, they're tuning over 20psi boost cars w/ Diablo w/ no problems.

[Tim@NCTSLLC]

A stand alone ECU will not function with the rest of the can bus components. Otherwise there would be FAST systems in a ton of vehicles already. Too bad, many issues would be solved.

As far as boost tables in the PCM, they "might" be there, but the PCM does not have the rest of the compnents and architecture needed to use them. CMR can scale for a different MAP sensor, but the PCM can not recognize a positive manifold state. It just can not do that. Scaling to use a 2 bar map sensor allows a boosted application not to overange the stock sensor and the resulting codes and possible limp issues. Additional fuel is brought in by lowering the WOT throttleblade threshold, not by a determination of boost from a differently scaled MAP sensor.

The problem is not boost under WOT, it is the low end drveability due to compressing the effective range of the pedal versus the throttleblade. The farther the WOT threshold is lowered, the touchier the pedal gets, and soon even the slightest touch will cause sudden acceleration.

It is a fine line between too low a threshold and one limiting drivability issues yet still providing fuel as soon as possible when in a boosted condition.

It's not the CMR's fault, it's strictly limitations of the factory PCM. If it had the tables, and the pin outs to add the other external sensors and components, then boost would be a non issue. It doesn't, so it can't, so there are issues.

Tim - CIS

[Super T]

I'm surprised to hear this from you... I have heard from other sources (not saying any more or less reliable) that all the tables for the SRT-4's were present in our PCM's, meaning it could handle boost from a turbo no problem.

A stand alone ECU will not function with the rest of the can bus components. Otherwise there would be FAST systems in a ton of vehicles already. Too bad, many issues would be solved.

As far as boost tables in the PCM, they "might" be there, but the PCM does not have the rest of the compnents and architecture needed to use them. CMR can scale for a different MAP sensor, but the PCM can not recognize a positive manifold state. It just can not do that. Scaling to use a 2 bar map sensor allows a boosted application not to overange the stock sensor and the resulting codes and possible limp issues. Additional fuel is brought in by lowering the WOT throttleblade threshold, not by a determination of boost from a differently scaled MAP sensor.

The problem is not boost under WOT, it is the low end drveability due to compressing the effective range of the pedal versus the throttleblade. The farther the WOT threshold is lowered, the touchier the pedal gets, and soon even the slightest touch will cause sudden acceleration.

It is a fine line between too low a threshold and one limiting drivability issues yet still providing fuel as soon as possible when in a boosted condition.

It's not the CMR's fault, it's strictly limitations of the factory PCM. If it had the tables, and the pin outs to add the other external sensors and components, then boost would be a non issue. It doesn't, so it can't, so there are issues.

Tim - CIS

[Tim@NCTSLLC]

I'm surprised to hear this from you... I have heard from other sources (not saying any more or less reliable) that all the tables for the SRT-4's were present in our PCM's, meaning it could handle boost from a turbo no problem.

This is not something new, I have been saying this for a long time. We have been working with boosted tuning for a long time. Some of the earliest tuning exercises for boost with the CMR was on some of our prototypes. I truly wish the tables were in there. Maybe they are, maybe they are not. No matter, the rest of the PCM architecture is not there to support using them if they are or were in there.

The SRT-4 has a really cool control system. It can tell when in a boosted range, it has Throttle Inlet Pressure sensor on the upstream side of the throttle blade, the MAP sensor downstream, a bank of solenoids the PCM redirects vacuum/pressure as needed, solenoids to divert pressure away from the barometric pressure reading sensor, the ability to adjust the wastgate and BOV to limit boost due to external inputs such as temp, elevation, poor traction (it really limits boost there), and on and on.

I have studied it at length, owned an SRT-4 and loved it, you just can not make the LX PCM as built by Chrysler to truly control fuel simply because the manifold pressure goes from a vacuum state to a pressure state. I really wish it would. There are some really good tunes out there that do a good job threading the needle as far as low end drivability issues.

But it is not because the PCM sees boost and adds fuel simply based on a positive state in the manifold.

There are many things that have to be scaled or adjusted properly to have the least drivability issues, and I know these aren't all of them by a long shot,

Injector scaling for increased size
Injector voltage scaling
Injector response time scaling
Map sensor scaling
WOT threshold setting
Throttleblade sensitivity
Pedal Position sensitivity
traction control and transmission settings
and on and on.

I know you have heard of people where their car wants to take off at the slightest touch of the pedal, or goes into boost with the slightest load increase, or it want's to keep going when you let off the throttle. These are all issues that come about because the PCM can not make changes based on a positive manifold pressure, and has to rely on blinding it to the fact that it is a positive state by using a 2 or 3 bar MAP sensor so the voltage does not over range. 0 inches of vacuum is about 4.5 volts on the stock sensor, and it has fits beyond about 4.7 volts or so. A 2 bar sensor shows about 2.4 volts or so when at 0 inches of vacuum. Now you can go into boost without hitting the magic upper voltage number.

But, you have cut your voltage range in half, and that has the effect of doubling the sensativity of the corelation between your right foot and the throtleblade. This is part of where the proper scaling is critical for minimal issues.

Tim - CIS

[Super T]

Good info Tim... if anyone knows, it's you :-)

[Blown7]

Yea we are working on a aftermarket SA that will be Can Bus compliant.

It takes a huge amount of time and money.
But it's comming soon.