GIFO3 - Headers, 18" vs 20" & GSM Mod RESULTS

[CoolVanilla]

A BIG THANK YOU TO JOSH AND HIGH HORSE PERFORMANCE, HARDWARE SPONSOR FOR THE GIFO3 SERIES OF TESTS.

Test Information
Date: 10/21/05
Dyno Time: 9:00 – 5pm
Dyno Temp Range: 65 – 80 degrees F
Dyno Location: SVS Automotive Research and Development Dept, Sacramento (www.svsrnd.com)
Dyno Driver and test administrator: Bob Crespo of SVS R and D
Dynamometer: Superflow AutoDyn SF 840 Chassis
Dyno Setup: All tests were run with a fan blowing from the front of the vehicle as well as across the tail area.
Dyno Raw Data: Coming soon.

Results Summary



Where to start? There was so many things going on this day. Much of it did nothing but raise more questions and lead to more confusion. Let’s just start at the top.

Headers:
I think it’s pretty clear that the headers are indeed worth some hp and trq gains. At first look, you might think what we all thought; comparing the average of the runs just before and just after shows a net of 20hp and 22torque. But, as you look closer at the data, something starts to seem… strange (the word of the day)

First, its important to realize that a battery disconnect is required to install the headers. So, if we take as fact that the PCM has no settings to loose, we should be able to claim the reset has no bearing on the results. But, look at these graphs:

HP


Torque


Notice something? After the headers were installed, our famous tranny dip shows its ugly face. But, and we confirmed this, the GSM traction mod was turned on. Why does the traction modification not work after a battery disconnect? (more on this later)

So, can we say the headers are worth 20/22? Maybe. I hesitate to assert it as fact, however, since there is clearly something going on in the torque management; something I could not control. Could it be the battery disconnect had some effect beyond throttle response?

GSM Traction Modification:
This is where things get really weird. As I understand it, the whole point of the mod is to limit the dip in hp and trq that accompanies each shift of the gears. The theory is, by removing this dip, time is saved and therefore we should get faster ¼ times. The above charts show this difference.

Now, take a look at this:


You’re looking at an overlay of two runs, that only differed by a flip of the switch (turning the GSM mod on). Notice that there is no dip. It would seem the tranny is acting like the GSM mod is on all the time. We didn’t just see this on my car; we saw it on Meister’s as well across multiple runs.

This I find very disturbing. The potential safety implications alone are enough to justify the concern; how can I be sure my traction control is functioning properly? What is it about this mod that changes the circuit to the point where the tranny acts totally differently now that it’s installed? Could this be a characteristic of the tranny itself, and thus the GSM mod in fact does nothing? So many questions, that seem to have no answers…

Here is another issue. Take a look at these:

HP



Trq


These two runs were consecutively made. The battery was disconnected before set 7, and you can see that the first two runs in set 7 behave as though the mod was not turned on. The last three runs in set 7 behave as though the mod was turned on (it was turned on for all 5; see above for a discussion on this). This graph shows runs 2 and 3. The thing I found interesting here is how the HP begins to dip much sooner than the standard shift. Even though the hp doesn’t drop so dramatically, the power does diminish far sooner than expected. Wouldn’t this tend to give back all the time we gained by a smaller dip? Perhaps that is why we saw basically zero improvement at the track.

K&N Aircharger vs The Stock Box:
I think we've finally reached the point where we might have realized a restriction in the stock box. Take a look at sets 4 and 5. I'm actually shocked to see that by removing the K&N Aircharger, I gave up 12/13. Still no where near the advertised 21, but we're gaining on it.

20” vs. 18” Rims and Tires:
If anything, the numbers show an improvement with the 20”s. I was unable to weigh these setups, but based on published numbers, the 20”s come in a few lbs heavier than the stocks.

203f vs. 170f Thermostat:
This was a spur of the moment test. Meister was able to track down a 170f thermo at the local Kragen, so we gave it a go. The numbers seem to show a 10/5 improvement. Well worth the $7!

Other items of note:
You may have noticed that the numbers before the header install were way down from the GIFO2 (almost 12/12). Bob, and the gang poured over the numbers and threw ideas around as to why this might be the case. The best theory we came up with relates to the STP correction factor; on this day, the factor was nearly 1:1. So, whatevier the dyno read is the number we’ve got. However, the GIFO2 had a significant factor applied (the ambient temps were 105f or so!). The thought is at the extreme temps, the correction overcompensates, thus yielding higher than normal numbers.

The other significantly more troubling theory relates to the GSM mod. As pointed out above, the tranny seems to react as though the mod was engaged even when it wasn’t. This could indicate a problem that the computer is just handling by limiting output. I have no real proof of this, but I’m really not sure what else it could be. The dyno was calibrated correctly; I had the same gas in it, at the same level… any other thoughts?

In any case, its the relative changes that are important. This is precisely why we try to run one car, on the same day at basically the same time with many different setups. It is almost impossible to compare these numbers with the GIFO2 or GIFO1. There are just too many things that could be different. However, comparing runs made in short order, in a fairly controlled environment is, in my opinion, a very valid way to derive the conclusions (and questions) we now have.

Track data:

[done]

Well that should put the "bigger rim is slower" conventional wisdom out to pasture where it belongs. The best runs of the night were with the 20's.

[MattRobertson]

Well that should put the "bigger rim is slower" conventional wisdom out to pasture where it belongs. The best runs of the night were with the 20's.

Score a big one for you on this, done. You've been arguing this point here and elsewhere for ages and getting an earful of naysaying back.



I wonder if heavier wheel weight is a factor. You and I have been on opposite sides of that discussion, but when I had wheels 8 lbs each heavier than stock I had about the same times and dyno results as I do now with 20's that are a tad lighter than stock. Not scientific by any stretch but it suggests to me that the wheel weight isn't so important -- at least in these increments -- either.



Last night at the track I ran a 14.39 with 20" wheels. Second best time. Although WAY behind Meister's monster 300C. I'll let him post about that; probably in the MnG thread. He's sat the same track today for Mopar Madness.

[67alecto]

I'll edit this thread in the next day or so (I'm stuck working on site all weekend, so please bear with me). I'll do the usual analysis and review after I've had a chance to sift thru all the data we collected.

In the mean time, I offer the track times chart below for those folks that have emailed me begging for results.

Hopefully, this will put to bed GSM's claims of .5 seconds off the quarter mile time.

gotls1 ran a 14.318 with it on and a 14.329 with it off.
CV ran 14.67 with it on and a 14.52 with it off.

[MattRobertson]

Of my times (in order, 14.856, 14.723, 14.592, 14.552, 14.567 and 14.393) I had GSM off and ESP on on the first run. Second and third run, GSM on ESP off. Fourth run was GSM off and ESP off. Fifth run was GSM off/ESP on. Sixth was GSM on / ESP off again.

I started out with a plan, but twitchy execution of the mod threw it off. Once the car heated up I couldn't get the mod back on at all (run 5). The fourth run, I deliberately ran with GSM off, but subsequently I couldn't get GSM back on, so on Run 5 I left them both on. After letting the car cool down I found I could get GSM to go again just fine, so I'm thinking heat was an issue?

Was the GSM mod responsible for the nearly steady decrease in my times? Was it the 10-degree temp drop (I also ran the heck out of that fan and kept my hood up)? Was I figuring out how to drive the car? Whatever you do don't ask me.

One thing is clear, I think: When lxforums.com (read "CV") does research, it involves averaging dyno runs and track results across a number of attempts under as controlled a set of circumstances as possible. However, if you cherry-pick the worst Before and the best After run you can say you tested Product X and "gained up to 21 hp". And strictly speaking you are not lying.

People wonder "How can they come up with those numbers?" after seeing the results of the various tests here I think plain and simple cherrypicking is the answer. We have seen some mighty impressive gains...

sometimes.

[XCITsNU]

I have done all my runs with the GSM mod on and the ESP button pushed to turn off the ESP (fan running the whole time)
Got into the 12's again! With just a stock 300c SRT-8 w:CAI & MagnaFlows

BUT I have never attempted to do the runs with the ESP not turned off. What could possibly be the difference? If I have the GSM torque mod on, then isn't everything disabled, whether I shut off ESP or not? Help me understand this, cause I am not clear on how this works, since I didn't do any research on the difference, any clarification would be highly appreciated. Thx.

[CoolVanilla]

First post updated with a prelimary analaysis. More to come in the following days.

[RTracer]

Well, I'm not at home, and I'm drinking, but What I can make out of this is.....
GSM mod.....CRAP
Headers...... Good

[DriveATransam]

great results guys! couple questions-

does the car being tested have a catback? i wonder if the results for the headers are higher with a catback vs stock setup.

the K&N looks like it made the biggest difference on a car with headers (if i read the other tests correctly). i woulda liked to seen a stock headered car+stock airbox on this day to confirm that the intake made no difference on that aspect.

was the battery disconnected after each run? i wonder if the tranny "learning" had any affect on the goofy spikes in the graphs.

im with RTracer on this one- i think the gsm mod is crap in the way of gaining any ET at the track. i DONT think it eliminates TM, i dont even understand how it would reduce TM based on the wire that is cut. its goof for eliminating ESP completely though. 200 bucks, little steep imo for something that should be public knowledge (and is off the board).

headers made quite an improvement. i didnt think they would make that much a difference with the speed density setup we have. guess i was wrong.

i would have liked to seen a jet chip+headers run too. their stage 2 "require" some sort of exhaust modification so id like to see the results happening there.

[CoolVanilla]

does the car being tested have a catback? i wonder if the results for the headers are higher with a catback vs stock setup.

Sure does. These tests have shown a progression, starting with the GIFO1 that tested a completely stock RT. We then moved on to the GIFO2 that tested the same intakes but this time with the Zoomers cat back installed. Now the GIFO3 is with headers and the cat back.

the K&N looks like it made the biggest difference on a car with headers (if i read the other tests correctly). i woulda liked to seen a stock headered car+stock airbox on this day to confirm that the intake made no difference on that aspect.

I chose not to take the time this go around, as we showed this exact thing in the GIFO2. Remember, its the relative differences that matter, and in the GIFO2 there was no relative difference between the Aircharger and stock box. I think we can safely state that the intake starts to become a restriction after the addition of headers and a cat back system; not before.

was the battery disconnected after each run? i wonder if the tranny "learning" had any affect on the goofy spikes in the graphs.

No, the bat was not disconnected after each set; only between 3-4 and 6-7. diamondRMP noticed, and I later was able to show with the data, that it seems that after a disconnect, the tranny shifts as we'd expect non-traction mod equipped RT to shift. It then seems, after some number of runs, the tranny decides to shift as though the traction mod IS installed. If this sounds confusing, thats because it is. The bottom line on this is, I simply don't get it.

im with RTracer on this one- i think the gsm mod is crap in the way of gaining any ET at the track. i DONT think it eliminates TM, i dont even understand how it would reduce TM based on the wire that is cut. its goof for eliminating ESP completely though. 200 bucks, little steep imo for something that should be public knowledge (and is off the board).

My concern at this point is the apparent inability to turn the damn thing off. The dummy lights stay off, but the graph shows a distinctly different shift. I just don't get it.

headers made quite an improvement. i didn't think they would make that much a difference with the speed density setup we have. guess i was wrong.

You and me both. I was expecting minimal gains. Its nice to see a mod actually have some measurable effect on our Hemi's.

i would have liked to seen a jet chip+headers run too. their stage 2 "require" some sort of exhaust modification so id like to see the results happening there.

Upon reflection, me too. In fact, we talked about it but just ran out of time. We all agreed, though, that this will be part of the next round of testing (high-flow cats).

[diamondrmp]

Maybe the intake increasing HP WITH headers is due to more air going out so the K&N worked more effectively.

The previous tests showed that the aftermarket intakes really had no positive results if I'm not mistaken.

On a side note. I had a really good time hanging out with the SVS guys and the GIPO LX members. The theories, what ifs, i thinks, maybe's, you thinks were interesting at the least. The diversity of ideas and thoughts prove to be entertaining and educational.

Kudo's to the SVS guys they had CV's headers installed in about 2 hours and that was with the Pizza lunch mixed in!

I'm looking forward to the next time. Lets do something just as a meet and greet hopefully on a weekend.

[DriveATransam]

No, the bat was not disconnected after each set; only between 3-4 and 6-7. diamondRMP noticed, and I later was able to show with the data, that it seems that after a disconnect, the tranny shifts as we'd expect non-traction mod equipped RT to shift. It then seems, after some number of runs, the tranny decides to shift as though the traction mod IS installed. If this sounds confusing, thats because it is. The bottom line on this is, I simply don't get it.

My concern at this point is the apparent inability to turn the damn thing off. The dummy lights stay off, but the graph shows a distinctly different shift. I just don't get it.

nice replys. i wonder what kinda gains i personally would see with headers/intake alone...but thats for another post.

i wouldnt be so concerned about your traction control NOT being engaged. to me this all looks like tranny issues. i can confirm this come winter time . to me, it appears that the tranny pretty much does whatever it feels like. i went back and took a second look at the graphs, they are a little confusing to read. my understand is that the ESP/BAS was manually disabled on all of the runs that the dyno showed variances on. it is wierd that the there is a later shift point with the larger drop though. what did the pre "gsm" graphs look like? like the larger dip dyno only or also a mix?

at the track my tranny seemed to basically do whatever it felt like. i had the esp off the entire time (hell, fuse 17 pulled), and it shifted a little different on each run. it appeared to hold the gear longer on a longer shift, and seemed to short shift on the tightest shifts. perhaps thats just the tranny "adapting"? i couldnt figure it out.

wonder if a cooler vs warm tranny has any effect on shift points.

perhaps to give the impression of better shifting it just lowers the shift point and reduces tm. done by DCX engineers to save the tranny?

perhaps some kind of limp mode/learning procedure/self diagnostic done by the pcm.

hmm

[MattRobertson]

To satisfy your concern about traction control, can you find yourself a big parking lot somewhere and do a little testing?

Yesterday I switched the fan on and the esp/bas light came back on. No way did I touch the TM button, let alone switch it over. Just plain screwy, this mod is.

[snickle]

The GSM mod, open up a big question. It seems to me to totally change the way the car reacts. For better or worse is still up in the air.

I don't think a dyno will tell us much on the mod. Only track time.

But doing back to back runs the same with just flicking the switch is not enough.

Since our cars can react strangely to changes. he true measure is hwat is the best time some one can get without the mod on and with the mod on. I suspect the approach to the best time for each might differ.

As for what diconnecting that wire really does, we would need a DCX enginer to answer.

[CoolVanilla]

I don't think a dyno will tell us much on the mod. Only track time.

I think I'll respectfully disagree with you here. The dyno is key in showing the change in shift pattern, as well as hp/trq decreases well before the shift. In my mind, this helped explain why we saw no change in track times.

But doing back to back runs the same with just flicking the switch is not enough.

Again, I'll respectfully disagree. This mod is supposed to have an immediate, direct effect on the torque management of our systems. Flip it on, and you're good to go. Flip it off, restart the engine and all should be back to normal. At least, thats the advertised theory.

Since our cars can react strangely to changes. he true measure is hwat is the best time some one can get without the mod on and with the mod on. I suspect the approach to the best time for each might differ.

Exactly why we went to the track after. I will be posting the slips soon, but as you can see in the chart, we had our best driver make a couple of great runs, with no other change than the mod on/off and we saw basically zero time change.