? For Experts: Replacing Front Sway Links Causes Over/Under Steer??

**EPIC SRT** · 09-17-2009, 12:29 AM

So here's the question:

If I where to replace my front sway links with.....let's say.....B-Woody links, and only replaced the front, would this cause an over or under steer situation in cornering if I did not also go to a beefier (if that's even a word) rear link as well?

Whether you think it does or doesn't, anything you can offer up in the way of physics, geometry, geo syncrinization of the solar system or something else to support your belief?

I am asking because this is something I was recently told and from what I can figure on the way the suspension works, lateral movement, downward force, centripital force, etc, I don't see how going to a thicker front sway link would drastically affect cornering from an over/under steer perspective.

Any thoughts???

**Super T** · 09-17-2009, 12:43 AM

No... there should be no play in the endlinks. Honestly, I see no reason to upgrade at all... but no. The swaybar itself is what shifts forces from one side to the other. It's basically a spring that connects one wheel to the other. The links are just connecting point A to B, and because they're mounted on pivots, they can't resist any twisting, only forces along their long axis... so it's not possible for them to do any more or less, unless you were to assume that the stockers bent like bows under normal operation - which they don't.

**CircuitMotorsports** · 09-17-2009, 02:15 AM

Upgrading your endlinks will help the swaybar work like it should. If you have stock endlinks that bend slightly it will take away from the performance of the sway bar. Just replacing endlinks should not induce more over or understeer, it would be a minor change.

**Super T** · 09-17-2009, 10:09 AM

Circuit - until someone puts strain gauges on the stickers, I refuse to believe they bend enough to shorten their length beyond a thou... Has anybody bothered measuring this?

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**twistedbigdaddy** · 09-17-2009, 11:34 AM

i thought mike at b-woody was the expert. Try calling him maybe he was trying to sell me his end links? Im sure thats him on ebay also, for a $189 and free shipping and powder coating as well.I am no guru on alinements but i do know how to call

**CircuitMotorsports** · 09-17-2009, 03:02 PM

SuperT- Im not saying they do, I have never bothered to test them myself.

I know on my STi the stock links are worthless with agressive driving or an upgraded swaybar.

All I'm saying is that a stronger link will help the swaybar work like it should

**Super T** · 09-17-2009, 03:33 PM

Sorry, that was hasty (was on my phone), didn't meant to make it sound like I was calling you out. I guess my point is, this seems like a waste of mod money to me. I'd love to see numbers on the deflection under use, both with stock and with upgraded aftermarket sway bars.

**Hemi31** · 09-17-2009, 03:36 PM

Didn't Matt Robertson bend the Bwoody links and go back to the stockers for the track?

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**MattRobertson** · 09-17-2009, 04:09 PM

Originally Posted by Super T

I refuse to believe they bend enough to shorten their length beyond a thou... Has anybody bothered measuring this?

Originally Posted by Hemi31

Didn't Matt Robertson bend the Bwoody links and go back to the stockers for the track?

No, I bent one of the *stockers*. Drivers side rear, about a 15-degree bend right in the middle. Not bent in an arc either. It was a narrow-radius bend right in the middle of the link. I still have it in the garage if someone wants a pic.

As for the BWoody links, they didn't include appropriate hardware in the kit. Specifically, you need BIG washers that exceed the diameter of the end link housing. What happened was I re-used the stock washers (which was bWoody's intent) but unbeknownst to them Chrysler made early builds with narrow washers. So After a few laps on Infineon the link received enough lateral force to pop out one of the two halves of one of the energy bushings (passenger rear). Additionally, in the front, using the washers supplied by bWoody, which were not oversized, the washer cut into the bushing (again thanks to lateral forces applied to the link via cornering) and the edge of the washer cut into the bushing.

To solve the problem, I bought oversized wide Cat 8 washers (from Pegasus Racing) for the front and rear (these are not the sort of washers you'll find at Ace... I looked. And you do not want to use pot metal fender washers). The oversized rear washers essentially trap the bushing inside the housing so it has nowhere to go. Problem solved in the rear. The oversized front washers have edges that are wider than the bushing, so they cannot cut into its edge.

Bwoody supplied me with a replacement bushing for the rear one that popped out no charge. Th cut front one we simply reversed so the cut edge faced the frame and that problem was solved on the spot.

Since then, the oversized washers in front have bent a bit, but this was expected given the link design. No other problems seen and the links have not bent like the stockers did under hard use. They're as good budget alternative to stock, for sure.

**EPIC SRT** · 09-17-2009, 04:13 PM

Please don't get me wrong. The purpose of this thread is to answer the question(s) in post #1 above for the general masses. I conducted a search and could not turn up information related to this question.

This should provide a resource for those that might have questions about how upgraded sway bar links would affect the overall driver experience.

If a company makes parts such as these, they should be the expert on what their parts can do and how they would affect the vehicle and drivability. I'm not trying to say any specific person isn't an expert.

After thinking about it, the best I could figure is that the steering could be affected when going to front links, like B-Woody's, not because of size, but because of the rigidity of the links. Stock links have two points that allow for flexing on each link allowing the geometry of those connections to twist in ways that B-Woody's cannnot. Kind of like comparing leaf spring suspension to that of a four-link suspension.

If this did cause a change in the steering in and out of corners, then it would not be based on whether or not you also had more rigid rear sway links, becuase there are no built in flex points from stock to B-Woody's.

Now, if this is correct, then every who had these more rigid front links shoul experience the same thing in cornering (everything else being equal) no matter if they have upgrade to the rear links?

I, myself, am not an expert (but I did stay at a Holliday Inn Express last night) in this area and want anyone who is an expert to chime in so that we will all be in the know!

**MattRobertson** · 09-17-2009, 04:18 PM

Well, I experienced zero difference in steering going from stock to the 1-piece BWoody's and my car is nearly dedicated to running road courses. Based on fairly extensive experience with the severest kind of duty you can put a car thru (short of dropping it off a cliff) I'd say any concerns about affecting the steering are unwarranted.

**NC-SXT** · 09-17-2009, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by Hemi31

Didn't Matt Robertson bend the Bwoody links and go back to the stockers for the track?

Posted via LXFMobile

He actually bent the stock ones . Here is his thread
Great Big Frakking Sway Links...

**EPIC SRT** · 09-17-2009, 04:24 PM

Also, I'm not dogging B-Woody's! Just wanting clarification on replacing front but not rear causing over steer.

Thanks for chiming in Matt! You've have actually track tested these links and have provided some good info.

What is your opinion on my last post? Anyone?

**MattRobertson** · 09-17-2009, 04:42 PM

Honestly, I would not just do a single axle when talking about suspension components. I would take it as a given that whatever I do in the front, I take into account for in the back. Doesn't mean that you have to use BWoody links on all four corners, but I would address the suspension as a four-corners-or-none proposition. I'd worry about creating an unexpected problem if I did one axle at a time. Sorry thats not so helpful I know.

**Mr. iNCREDIBLE** · 09-17-2009, 05:00 PM

I'm running the B-Woody's up front with Hotchkis sways and the stockers out back with the hotchkis (cause I haven't gotten around to swapping the rear end links as of yet, no time)..

I haven't had any over or under steer issues at all.. with the coil-overs, upgraded torsion struts, bwoody end links, and hotchkis sways my car handles beautifully, as It should have (IMO) from the factory.

in addition with my little episode last night running up a curb, over an embankment and off the curb on the other-side at some 50mph (I was run off the road) I took the car in this morning for alignment check, and I was .05 degrees off on the Toe and that was it, the upgraded parts (again my opinion) kept the car in alignment and the wheels planted on the ground during that unavoidable maneuver.