Face Offf Request - Preadator vs Others

[SanDiegoChargerRT]

This would be a great face off topic. Preadator vs SC vs BnG tune vs ?

[Batman]

Dyno would be needed to finalize.

[MattRobertson]

and a track. We have both in Sacto at MFO HQ.

Speaking personally I'd like to see some other players in the mix, and supposedly more are on the way.

[sc_pape]

SCT is not far behind....

[Q8^SRT8]

Lets do it !

[Cam]

Me thinks we'll be able to see the play-off's between 3 or 4 players inside of the next 3-4 months. Soon, the big boys will hit the street and comparing standard handhelds will out the window. It's pretty damn obvious the Diablo knocks the crap out of the SC unit.

[MattRobertson]

It's pretty damn obvious the Diablo knocks the crap out of the SC unit.Yeah there's not much point to facing off there. We did a SC/Hypertech comparison and realized there was no comparison. The HT was really a handheld Jet Chip competitor more than anything else.

As you say, there are other big players coming soon. I'd love to see a tune-off, but I think with the new landscape we need to look at what a tune-off is. For example:

What if they all allow exquisitely fine-tuned dyno tunes? What other criteria exist? One thing I can think of is tune cost. If a CMR tuner wants $X and a [insert unnamed competitor here] wants $Y, that would be useful to know. If Tuner X takes 30 billable dyno minutes to get right and Tuner Y takes 4 billable hours... more useful info.

I can see there being lots to do and lots to report on, and not all of it is known just yet.

:spock:

[Redfox0099]

??? How do we find a local Dyno that can tune us with the Diablo?

[CoolVanilla]

??? How do we find a local Dyno that can tune us with the Diablo?
Very carefully :wink:

Actually, we're about to do some real learning on this exact thing. Bob (SVS) is very willing to work with a CMR shop by proxy, and we've got a couple that have already agreed to work with us.

How exactly? Like this:
1) Plug in the Predator and make a dyno pull, datalogging the whole time.
2) Datalog the dyno's info.
3) Take both files and email to the CMR shop.
4) Get on the phone and talk about the files and tweaks.
5) CMR shop emails us a tune based on our files and converstations
6) We download that file to the PCM via the Diablo
7) Goto step 1 and repeat until all is well.

We'll see how well this executes in reality within the next week or two.

[RadarmagneT]

Very carefully :wink:
Actually, we're about to do some real learning on this exact thing. Bob (SVS) is very willing to work with a CMR shop by proxy, and we've got a couple that have already agreed to work with us.


Great how about a LT Header tune? PLEASE PLEASE!
CAI, LT Headers, catback.
lots of us have been waiting on this for YEARs!

I wonder if canned, dyno tested, could be done for the different brand LTs (may not be necessary though)

[CoolVanilla]

Great how about a LT Header tune? PLEASE PLEASE!
CAI, LT Headers, catback.
lots of us have been waiting on this for YEARs!

I wonder if canned, dyno tested, could be done for the different brand LTs (may not be necessary though)
I think you're talking about something slightly different, although I think this idea really has merit. Nothing (as far as I can tell) is stopping any CMR shop from developing these canned tunes for purchase. There may be some licensing and/or legal barriers that Diablo enforces on that CMR shop, but technically, it seems very do-able that a CMR shop finds a stock LX and starts adding parts and developing tunes for those parts, for later sale.

[MattRobertson]

Great how about a LT Header tune? PLEASE PLEASE!

How about you go make one for yourself with the shop of your choice and their tuning software of choice? I don't mean to be harsh but I think thats the way its going to be. I just don't see safe, optimal canned tunes happening when you get past a certain point and LT's seem to be the breaking point.

We're entering a world where we can do what everybody else does: Hire a speed shop to tune our cars properly with our individual mods. But its only the beginning. I doubt we'll find anywhere the commonality of experience or low cost that we'd get if we were driving Mustangs or Camaros for quite some time.

Someone like Dave Kasper at B&G has done enough of these that he claims he can get very near optimal just by hearing your mod list. From there he says that after putting in the tune he puts together for you, its just a case of dialing in the AFR's on the car. But right now there aren't too many Dave's out there.

[CoolVanilla]

LOL I think Matt disagrees with me. And you might be right Matt; these cars might be so different from one to the next, even off the assembly line, that canning a tune for various mods (ala LTs, an intake, an exhaust ect...) isnt possible. And of course, what happens when you start mixing mods?

Yep, I think your right about this. We're getting to the point where it just makes sense to find a shop with a dyno and the tuning package you like, and pay them to spend an hour or three 'getting it right'.

[MattRobertson]

... it seems very do-able that a CMR shop finds a stock LX and starts adding parts and developing tunes for those parts, for later sale.Does it? What happens to the long-tube tune when someone adds a second mod? How do you stack a long tube tune on top of a CAI/Catback tune? How will intake A and catback B interact with LT C, and then what happens when you switch the intake?

Remember what I said about how there is a lot to test and I don't think we know what all to test yet? I bet the above would be useful to know. Get an optimal tune and see what happens when you change the parts list around.

:spock:

[CoolVanilla]

:thumbs_u: See above.

[MattRobertson]

Dare I say it... we could...








test different intakes






and see what happens. Switch the intake on an otherwise stock car. I bet the CAI tune stays good no matter what you do. Switch the intake on a car dyno tuned with an AirHammer and Zoomers. Put a K&N on and watch...

[RadarmagneT]

Does it? What happens to the long-tube tune when someone adds a second mod? How do you stack a long tube tune on top of a CAI/Catback tune? How will intake A and catback B interact with LT C, and then what happens when you switch the intake?


Optimal tuning (custom) and canned tunes are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS...
So basically, you're saying that no one should use the canned CAI or octane tunes on the programmers either?

I appreciate you wanting me to get my own custom tune done. That's great... for you. But not for many of the people who have some of these mods.

I would just like to take SOME advantage of LT headers instead of what the car allows/adjust for anyway.

How about an "aftermarket CAI + LT" basic tune? It could be dyno tweaked (using the handheld) from there, but I'd bet the differences in brands would be minor enough to make a canned tune that was SAFE and increased performance.

And because datalogging can be reviewed by the tuner shop, any problems or enhancements for the "combination" of brands could be figured out too.
All without bringing EVERY car with EVERY combination to the SAME dyno shop.

BTW, Catbacks don't require a tune according to Diablo.

[RadarmagneT]

Oh, and not to mention, that mod MANUFACTURERS could work with tuner shops to make some canned tunes.
That way our favorite vendors can sell us the parts and the BASIC tune for them.

[CoolVanilla]

I dont think you'll ever see mainstream mod mfgs shipping their wares with software too. There are a whole bunch of reasons why... not the least of which is implied liability.

Now a vendor... yes. In fact there are two very well known vendors that are also CMR shops here on our board. No doubt in my mind that, if it makes sense, these guys will look into adding value to their goods in the form of canned tunes.

All that aside though, I'm not sure how many folks *just* install headers. Seems to me, if you're going that route, you're also doing exhausts, and most likely intake and most likely thermo and... and all the sudden you've got enough "oh ands" to make a standard off the shelf tune impractical.

And keep in mind, we're not talking thousands of dollars here. We're talking a couple hundred more on top of the install to dyno and tune, depending on the shop.

We'll see. There are some very smart folks digging into these new possibilities as I type. No doubt we'll get some answers in the form of actions soon.

[MattRobertson]

All that aside though, I'm not sure how many folks *just* install headers. Seems to me, if you're going that route, you're also doing exhausts, and most likely intake and most likely thermo and... and all the sudden you've got enough "oh ands" to make a standard off the shelf tune impractical.
Precisely. Now with that said, if I were a vendor who sold auto parts and was also a CMR vendor (lets make up a shop name.... How about Low Cow Accomplishment :D) I would definitely start hauling stuff off the rack and playing with it, if for no other reason than to learn stuff in general.

Would I be able to learn anything specific? Could I say "ah if you have Brand X header you always have to do this and tweak that in these precise amounts and it will come out right every time regardless of the other mods. However Brand Z header requires the following measurements". Or could you instead say "for all shortie headers tick this setting up 5 notches and that one down three." In other words, make adjustments that are mod-specific and not brand-specific.

For the above to be true it would seem to be tantamount to saying "all Type X mods produce the same resulting conditions" and by extension all combinations of other mods present the same individual condition alterations as well. Thus they can all be given individual canned tune settings since the combinations do not produce any unknown variations.

I don't see that happening. Thats what dyno tuning is for. And since I am a guy who needs to buy and pay for one, I would really rather this not be the case. So its not like I am biased in favor of such a thing.

[RadarmagneT]

Could I say "ah if you have Brand X header you always have to do this and tweak that in these precise amounts and it will come out right every time regardless of the other mods. However Brand Z header requires the following measurements". Or could you instead say "for all shortie headers tick this setting up 5 notches and that one down three." In other words, make adjustments that are mod-specific and not brand-specific.

I realize the OPTIMUM tuning would require testing, tuning, testing, repeat...
and the addition of various mods DO interact. I'm not sure you realize that we understand that.

But it seems the B&G guys can make a tune by knowing what you have.
After data collection(on a dyno or not), they can fine tune it more...

Sounds EXACTLY like what I'm talking about. In fact, I'm looking at getting the Diablo THROUGH B&G because of this.

There's NO reason, with the learning the PCMs can do, that a canned tune cannot learn variations as it runs. Just like the stock tune (canned) does.

[CoolVanilla]

But it seems the B&G guys can make a tune by knowing what you have.
After data collection(on a dyno or not), they can fine tune it more...

Sounds EXACTLY like what I'm talking about. In fact, I'm looking at getting the Diablo THROUGH B&G because of this.Forgive me here, as I know you're not addressing me, but what you're describing (based on the above) is NOT a "canned" tune. You're talking about a custom tune Dave will build for you, based on his experienced "best guess", derived from hundreds of hours to testing others have paid for. You're just happening to get to take advantage of his knowledge and experience my making a phone call, rather than needing to dyno your specific car.

What am I missing?

There's NO reason, with the learning the PCMs can do, that a canned tune cannot learn variations as it runs. Just like the stock tune (canned) does.You assume these adaptive are still alive and well after a custom tune is applied. I'm not sure I'd make that assumption over the long haul.

[MattRobertson]

Yeah I see you describing a custom tune, not a canned one, although you are talking about using cost-saving shortcuts I would not consider (i.e. not using a dyno after the ballpark custom tune is delivered, and using the handheld's options rather than going after the detailed stuff that a pro tuner is going to have at their fingertips). I would worry for your motor if you do that, although Dave's involvement gets you most of where you need to go. Would you really risk your motor and the thousands of dollars its going to take to fix it to save a few hundred dollars? Its your call of course but I would counsel that this is something you should do up right or not even touch.

[RadarmagneT]

Forgive me here, as I know you're not addressing me, but what you're describing (based on the above) is NOT a "canned" tune. You're talking about a custom tune Dave will build for you, based on his experienced "best guess", derived from hundreds of hours to testing others have paid for. You're just happening to get to take advantage of his knowledge and experience my making a phone call, rather than needing to dyno your specific car.

Geez, OK, so Dave can make assumptions about adjusting this and that due to his experiences? that sounds like making a CANNED tune. The car isn't present on a dyno, so he has to use exactly what MR was talking about. KNOWN changes for KNOWN mods.

I understand you guys think CUSTOM tuning is the ONLY tuning... but I think your wrong... a canned will work BETTER than the stock tune for certain mods.
I didn't say a canned LT header tune would work as well if someone added a CAM afterwards, but I bet it would start CLOSER to right than the stock (non-LT) tune.

I bet there are LOTS of people with aftermarket intakes and headers (short and LT) that could benefit from a "canned" tune from Dave... He could also sell COPIES of tunes which, I'm sure, would help his bottom line.

and NO, the CANNED tune wont be OPTIMUM, but it will be BETTER, possibly MUCH better... there is NO, none, zero reason that there can't be a CANNED tune for LT headers on 5.7/6.1s

Sorry if you don't like the idea... but that doesn't mean it wont work... well... and for lots of people.

Anyway, this has gone on long enough in the MFO forum.
Back to topic...

How about the Next MFO do some tune dyno tweaking on the different combinations of mods present to look for the optimum combination of hardware AND tune.

[RadarmagneT]

Yeah I see you ... or not even touch.

wow you refuse to get it... anyway the diablo doesn't allow you to tune very far at all... ON PURPOSE I'm sure. So, after recording some results, there may be areas where you can slightly change trim, timing, etc WITHOUT risking blowing something up.

Whatever guys, get your custom tunes already.

[MattRobertson]

wow you refuse to get it... No. I get where you are coming from. I just think you are wrong. Or more accurately you are right up to a point but I think you are trying to carry that point further than it is safe to do so.

anyway the diablo doesn't allow you to tune very far at all... ON PURPOSE I'm sure.I'm sure :-)

I do agree it would be real interesting to try and alter components to see if it throws a tune out of whack, and by how much. Not a clue as to whether there are enough people interested in going that route to support the tests, nor do I have any idea whether we would have enough time to swap parts out so as to make meaningful testing possible. This is what stopped the 'catback-shootout' idea.

[CoolVanilla]

I don't get where the attitude is coming from. I think you'll find that a "canned" tune is considered a tune that comes prepackaged in a box, with zero knowledge of the (edit: specific) car its being installed on (edit: obviously it will be based on R&D done by the company producing it. But the end user has no say in what their specific version will entail, unlike what Dave is offering). ANYTHING other than that is considered custom stuff, and not off-the-shelf, aka canned.

I don't know why this is a point of argument. Its not really something debatable. In my experience, its the common terminology used to differentiate between the two tuning methods.

[RadarmagneT]

The original point is that many, if not most of the tuning needs of LT headers/etc could be put in a safe CANNED tune... DONE. You can disagree... OK?

So back to MFO...
I think there where enough people at the tests that if, say B&G or another tune shop, would take 3+ cars with different brand headers, (probably hi-flo cats, intake and catback) put a handheld loaded canned tune (to start with) on them and then test the difference.
Possibly, using the feedback from the dyno there may be differences that could be tweaked out... or differences from mechanicals could be seen.

then we learn one tune that can be GOOD on all headers in the test. (and probably the others not tested as well)
AND we have 3 tweaked tunes that show which header/setup has the most potential (at the time of test) to be "tuned" further

I think the "common" tune software is almost the only way to judge the difference between mechanicals without EXTENSIVE tuning on each mechanical to get that optimum tune.

Hey maybe SCT, Diablo, others and B&G can have a "tune off"...
Basically, the all get the same car to dyno and tune for X time...
The would push the software YEARS ahead in known ability.

[MattRobertson]

I think one thing we have learned over the MFO tests is you have to control your variables. And that means you test on the same car; preferably on the same day. Practically that means you install different headers on the same car and test each. Going to this trouble, you would want to get as much bang for yourr buck out of it, so you would look at 1)does the header switch screw up the tune and 2)if you optimize the tune for this particular set of headers, is Set A better than B or C.

And thats where practical reality starts smashing you up. Headers are quite the pain to install. And after you do a few dyno runs and tune runs, you've spent maybe -- lets be generous -- an hour of dyno time. Then you have to let the car sit and cool for a few *hours*. Then you tear the car down and put different headers on. Realistically a viable experiment with three sets of headers would be three days of test time...

... when we applied this reality check to a simple catback comparison it fell on its face as well for the same reasons -- time and money. If you try and shortcut the process with different cars you introduce other variables that spoil your experiment.

This is why I suggested using intakes. Easy to swap out and run a new set of experiments. But then we have a test of limited utility.

Its not easy figuring out how to do this MFO stuff and keep it real.

[CoolVanilla]

And as has been pointed out, adaptives (as of today) can still greatly affect the effectiveness of a tune and/or mod. So, again realistically speaking, a few hundred (?) miles would need to be put on each setup before a valid dyno run could be accepted.

How far does the rabbit hole go?

[Cam]

How far does the rabbit hole go?

To far at this point. And there in lies the problem. With out huge deep pockets, MOFO has run it's course, IMO. All of a sudden, exhaust system swaps sound easy. :roll:

But info like a build such as yours with a base tune and dyno logs. Verses a full tune would be of great value. Yes, it was tuned for specific componants, but it will give everyone a good idea of where the build can get you.

[MattRobertson]

Crap I forgot about adaptives. Geez the whole landscape has changed if you can tune the pcm. Even the simplest thing that we can all take for granted -- intake performance -- is out the window.

I can't believe I am saying this, but we may sort of need to start over and gather up new baselines. Start with intakes and a tuner. Dyno, Pull Fuse 11, install intake, tune, drive to our secret helicopter-proof spot, drive back and dyno again. I wonder what would happen? I still have the AirRaid intake boxed up and ready for more testing. Would the AirHammer and AFE still show the same results? Bigger? Smaller?


Lets call it... hmmm. I know:


GIFO!

AssHat

[Rev.Hammer]

I got a bottle of helicopter repellant....its about half full...

[RandomAccess]

The thought of copters chasing you down must have scared everyone away...



Updates on this?

[MattRobertson]

I don't know of any updates but I would like to see an intake face-off.

:-O

Yes thats right. Whats the one thing every one of us has been whining about since Day 1? "Gee I sure wish we could tune the car. If only we could tune the car or get rid of HAL we would be pissing rose water and pooping gold bars."

Well that day is here... uhh. I mean tuners are here. We'll have to keep waiting on the other stuff.

I think some kind of basic intake test would be useful to re-establish our base assumptions. Or reinforce the old ones. What happens if we re-test with tuning ability and intakes still do nothing until we add more mods?

I expect to be on the MFO dyno in about a month and I may fund a mini test myself. I have a stock intake, an SRT intake, a Frankentake III, an AirRaid Stage 2 and an AirHammer (edit: and thats AFTER I threw away much of my intake stuff when I moved!). I'm thinking the AirRaid and the AirHammer are givens, up against either the RT stocker or an SRT. Probably the latter since my car is by no means stock config.

[RandomAccess]

I don't know of any updates but I would like to see an intake face-off.

:-O

Yes thats right. Whats the one thing every one of us has been whining about since Day 1? "Gee I sure wish we could tune the car. If only we could tune the car or get rid of HAL we would be pissing rose water and pooping gold bars."

Well that day is here... uhh. I mean tuners are here. We'll have to keep waiting on the other stuff.

I think some kind of basic intake test would be useful to re-establish our base assumptions. Or reinforce the old ones. What happens if we re-test with tuning ability and intakes still do nothing until we add more mods?

I expect to be on the MFO dyno in about a month and I may fund a mini test myself. I have a stock intake, an SRT intake, a Frankentake III, an AirRaid Stage 2 and an AirHammer (edit: and thats AFTER I threw away much of my intake stuff when I moved!). I'm thinking the AirRaid and the AirHammer are givens, up against either the RT stocker or an SRT. Probably the latter since my car is by no means stock config.


I would think you'd want start with top performers from the original MoFO, no? Like Hammer & AFE, IIRC those performed significantly better than the others.... maybe add in the stock for comparison. Unless you are thinking that the tune would change that?

(we need to introduce you to the sell / swap section.)

[MattRobertson]

Yeah but all I have is what I have. I'd be using what I can haul out of the garage and pay to test.

I'd be doing some kind of reverse baseline. Since my car isn't stock and I know at my mod level an intake mod of some kind is necessary, I'd be baselining with an aftermarket, and then throwing on a stocker to see how much it hurts performance. Not the same thing as saying 'how much does X gain vs. stock' when the motor ain't stock to start with.

My personal goal would be to see what losses I get on intake X vs. stock, because I will probably have to pull the loud aftermarket intake at the track for noise reasons and put the stocker back on. This exercise would tell me how much I am losing.

I can think of a zillion holes to poke into this test. Most of them revolve around the fact that my vehicle is nowhere near stock. But I do have a personal need that I can satisfy with this test and perhaps we can learn something interesting that we can test more thoroughly - and properly - at another time, assuming something interesting comes of my runs.


I probably should have sold that stuff, but man... when you are moving and you have a TON of crap to deal with I said to hell with it. The salvage guys were glad to get them, I know.