Frankencooler is Here. Modular Auxiliary Cooling For The 5.7/6.1

[MattRobertson]

The Frankencooler project, originally announced in this thread (http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=52184) came about to address a situation found to plague -- and in some cases disable -- LX vehicles driven in extreme circumstances... particularly with respect to track days. I would, however, not limit this project to tracked cars only. For example I would argue that ANYONE who has installed a high-stall torque converter needs the tranny cooler.

I'll let that original thread stand as an intro to this one, and not re-cover the ground that was gone over there, so if you haven't looked at least at the initial post of that thread, go check it out, read the background and come back afterwards.

As was noted in the original thread, unlike the Frankentake project, Frankencooler is a project that needs a shop to do the work, or someone experienced enough with automotive maintenance -- who has the tools -- to take it on. this is not a job for the noob. Now that we've done a couple of installs we can say this for sure. We had some surprises, some redesigns and some difficulties, all of which were worked through. And it turned out to be more expensive than expected. I would expect that the best you are going to get away with is 5 hours shop time, assuming a meticulous and careful job is done. You should expect six. Lastly, reality bumped off theory as usual and we have had some parts list changes from that earlier thread (although I have, with one exception, kept the lists updated in the other thread).

Coolers and Capacities
----------------------
I have spent a bunch of time on this, and learned a lot. All coolers are nowhere near alike, even if they are of the same type. Like in many things, you can find "the same" product at different price points and quality levels.

First of all, we are not using tube-and-fin coolers for anything here. The tube-and-fin design is good for minimal restriction but in terms of capacity, its not optimal. Instead the stacked-plate type of design is what you want if you want to pack in a lot of cooling capacity into a small area. Not surprisingly, stacked plate coolers are relatively expensive. An excellent description of how stacked plate coolers work is at the Setrab USA web site (http://www.setrabusa.com/Setrab%20USA%20ProLine.pdf).

In general, it seems as if most of the stacked plate coolers out there and available to us ordinary slobs are made, in alphabetical order, by Derale, Earl's Performance Plumbing and Setrab. Actually calling Derale a manufacturer is incorrect, since Derale is buying coolers from a 3rd party and simply packaging them, unlabelled, in their own name.

Derale
------
These coolers were the original choice for all three coolers in this system. While their pricing isn't cheap, its still the least expensive out there. However Derale has more than its share of problems. First of all, all units are on "custom order" status at Summit Racing or anywhere else you try to buy them. The individual I spoke to repeatedly at Derale told me this is because what Derale does is wait until enough orders accumulate for their coolers to allow them to get *their* required minimum order quantity, at which time they buy coolers from the manufacturer to in turn hand off to Summit. We discovered the hard way that the month-long wait we experienced could very easily stretch to at least two as our oil coolers came in, but the tranny coolers were projected to be a wait of still another month by the time it was admitted that no coolers had arrived, nor would they be arriving anytime soon. A call to Derale yielded apologies and evasions but nothing positive, which was kind of a pattern when talking to them about getting product shipped. Not only was the transmission oil cooler replaced by another brand, so was the engine oil cooler. Why drop Derale coolers for both applications? Thats another story, and not so flattering to Derale, either.

Lest you think I am totally down on Derale, I am not. If you have time and patience, and you are willing to accept a quality level that is "acceptable", then you can consider the Derale units a budget alternative and save yourself about $85 across both engine oil and transmission oil coolers. They should work fine.

The oil cooler mini-saga
------------------------
After receiving our tranny oil coolers from Earl's, I wanted to know if I could get a capacity ratingg from them, so I called and spoke to an engineer at Earl's and was given some hot-off-the-test-bench efficiency test results. They showed the cooler efficiencies even better than Setrab's published numbers by a fairly wide margin. Meister and I decided to order one each, examine them at time of install, put in the better of the two and send the other packing. when the Earl's unit arrived Bob at SVS compared them and noted that the Derale unit's ID for their fittings was markedly smaller than the Earl's unit. So that was that.

However when my own cooler arrived I compared it to the Derale and found no such fitting size differential (although there was a definite difference in fit/finish/materials, with Earl's winning the comparison). Upon my arrival at the shop I held the two coolers side by side and saw that clearly the Derale had the wrong size fittings... so wrong the -10 fittings wouldn't screw into it. After making their customer wait for over a month for delivery, they sent a cooler with -8 AN fittings packaged as a -10 AN. Meister would have been screwed if we hadn't had this backup plan already in place.

My Derale cooler vs. the one Derale sent to Meister
http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankencooler/006.jpg

Earl's 25-row unit next to the comparable Derale. Note the earl's fittings follow the industry norm and are interchangeable whereas the Derale fittings are permanently fixed. there's no way to fix it without sending the cooler back and waiting another month for the right one to arrive.
http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankencooler/007.jpg
http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankencooler/008.jpg

Setrab
------
Setrab is a big name in coolers. Their stuff is top quality. With that reputation comes the top price on the market. Interestingly, Derale told me they used to buy their coolers from Setrab, but did so no longer due to increased pricing. Indeed, a Setrab cooler could be almost double the cost of a Derale cooler even at the best internet price to be found (Google "Setrab Coolers" to find them). Their heat transfer ratings (http://www.setrabusa.com/ocdims&appassist.pdf) are certainly excellent. Setrab's pricing coupled to their heat transfer ratings when compared to Earl's coolers kept them from being considered for this project.

Earl's Performance Plumbing
---------------------------
Originally written off as unnecessarily expensive given the Derale products' pricing, Earls' coolers wound up being our coolers of choice. The fact that they could be had in a single day without any hassles was certainly a big factor, but after talking with an engineer at Earl's, and directly comparing the quality of the coolers they delivered, Meister and I both are happy we made the move away from Derale. In hot-off-the-bench performance figures made available to us, Earl's heat transfer ratings beat out Setrab by a substantial margin.

NOTE:
-----
All parts numbers below are for for Summit Racing, where you can buy everything you need in one shot. If you want to shop around maybe you can beat some of these prices, but Summit prices their products aggressively

ADDED Jun 16 2007: You can save a few bucks over the parts lists shown below by using Summit Racing's house brand for some fittings and for braided hose. For example, AER-FBM4034 (http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?target=partdetail.asp&part=AER-FBM4034&FROM=MG) costs $23.95 and you need two of them on the oil cooler. You could use two of SUM-220087 (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=SUM%2D220087&N=700+400304+301753+4294906712+115&autoview=sku) priced at $15.95 each and save $16. However no one as of this writing has purchased these parts and reported on their relative quality.

[MattRobertson]

Is an engine oil cooler for everyone? I don't think so. If you live in a cold-weather climate I would want to see oil temps that are regularly too hot before I started thinking about one of these. Scott at the Hemi Shop told me a poor man's oil cooler is to simply change your oil right after a track day. Thats probably good enough for most folks.

The oil cooler is mounted behind and under the bumper. It gets its inrushing air supply from the lower grille on the Magnum. While not totally exposed to direct airflow thanks to the bumper, it still gets one hell of a lot, and the fact that we chose a deliberately oversized 25-row cooler works in our favor here. Why did it go behind the bumper? Because if we sat it atop the bumper as per the original plan we were worried about robbing the main cooling system of too much airflow. Also with a 25-row cooler the thing is just so large it may be this is the only place it could go, period. As it stands now, the hoses are effectively in contact with the lower plastic shroud of the fascia.

Setrab rates their 25-row cooler at up to 46,000 btu/hr when used to cool engine oil. Internet prices range from about $215 to $245.
Earls Performance Plumbing rates their 25-row cooler at up to 57,000 btu/hr when used to cool engine oil.
Derale rates their 25-row coolers at 33000 GVW (Gross Vehicle Weight). No its not the same unit of measure and we can't figure out a conversion, although that is a hefty number as GVW ratings go.My install needed a last-minute rework of the parts around the oil sandwich adapter due to an 'oops' on the parts list (the parts lists below have been corrected). We needed a swiveling elbow adapter that ran from 3/8" male NPT (to connect to the sandwich adapter) to -10 AN male. We did find Earl's part #EAR-829011ERL, but its a hard 90-degree bend, is very expensive at $66 for the needed pair and besides... it wasn't available from any supplier in the Sacramento metro area. Bob wound up figuring out a better, cheaper solution anyway. Use 3/8" NPT male to -10AN male straight adapters, and then use a -10AN female to -10AN hose end swiveling elbow. This gives the same result, is cheaper by about $20 for both fittings and, since its a sweeping bend rather than a hard 90, promotes better flow. The results are pictured below.

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankencooler/009.jpg
http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankencooler/010.jpg

Note that to get the straight adapters to seat deeply enough to allow the whole assembly to clear a crossmember support thats in the way, the threads on the sandwich adapter had to be tapped out to let the straight adapters seat as deeply as possible.

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankencooler/oilparts_basic.gif

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankencooler/oilparts_upgrade.gif

Meister's variant uses the Earl's billet aluminum sandwich adapter. Now that we've seen it we know that this unit, rather than using the bi-metal spring that the Derale uses, takes advantage of a wax thermostat similar in operation to your typical engine cooling thermostat. Certainly a more sophisticated design.

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankencooler/011.jpg

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankencooler/oilparts_meister.gif

[MattRobertson]

Is a transmission oil cooler for everyone? I have to say "yes". Cooler fluid is almost always going to be better than warmer, and its going to be REAL tough to make the fluid too cool. The hotter the fluid, the more wear on your tranny. Even if you don't drive hard. Even if you leave your torque management alone. Even if you have not installed a hi-stall converter, your transmission will benefit from cooler fluid. Now, thats just my opinion and you are free to disagree with me here or anywhere else. But I consider this unit as cheap insurance to put off that transmission rebuild and a required component in an enthusiast-driven automobile. This system uses a 16-row cooler.
Setrab rates their 16-row cooler at up to 32,000 btu/hr. Internet prices are about $175.
Earls Performance Plumbing rates their 16-row cooler at up to 37,000 btu/hr.
Derale rates their 16-row coolers at 22000 GVW (Gross Vehicle Weight). Again not the same unit of measure and we don't have a conversion, but still a big number.Meister's system uses the spec'd -6AN anodized elbows and braided hose.

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankencooler/017.jpg

My system uses hard stainless lines. Slick and max durable, but not even remotely economical.


http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankencooler/018.jpg

Note that the transmission cooler is hooked up as a standalone and NOT in series with the existing cooler, which now sits unused. While the 16-row Earl's cooler has an enormous cooling capacity, the fact is you almost can't get your tranny fluid too cool. If you're going to go this far spend the time to go further and hook them up in series. In my own case this was an expedient of time. 160 miles from home, the clock is ticking and its the second install ever. While I want to leave no stone unturned this is one we had to leave alone. For now?
UPDATE 3/26/07: Track experience and torture testing indicates that leaving the cooler hooked up as a standalone as shown will significantly reduce engine cooling temps (i.e. water) since the transmission cooler is no longer in direct contact with the radiator. If you do not have a torque converter installed the method shown below may in fact be the best route. Hooking the coolers up in series will lower tranny temps and raise engine temps when under stress (i.e. track).

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankencooler/019.jpg

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankencooler/trannyparts_basic.gif

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankencooler/trannyparts_upgrade.gif

[MattRobertson]

Is a power steering cooler for everyone? No. Unless you drive the car hard, I wouldn't worry about it. But if you do drive it hard I would worry given the experiences we have seen on the track with splitting hoses, spilled superheated fluid and blown pumps. Given that this is the cheapest cooler on the project, I'd say its well worth doing on general principles if you go for extended spirited drives with a lot of negotiated curves. If not, don't sweat it.
UPDATE 3/26/07: I've changed my mind somewhat, based in part on background discussions with knowledgeable individuals who have acknowledged that even the much beefier SRT cooling system can blow... and if it can go a 5.7 can go a heck of a lot more easily. If you drive the car hard put a cooler in. Cheap insurance.

First and foremost, this cooler is, well, its huge.

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankencooler/pscooler4.jpg

Two feet long with fins on the inside and on the outside, its cooling capabilities are bolstered simply by the fact that it holds over a quart of fluid.

Originally spec'd to go on the bottom of the bumper, directly in the lower grille's airstream, its been instead mounted up on top. Doing this requires some welding to provide the brackets necessary to affix it at this location.

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankencooler/012.jpg

The brackets have to be welded on at a slight angle. Fitment was accomplished by c-clamping the cooler to the desired location, marking with a pencil the line where the support to be bolted onto was, clamping a sized aluminum strip to this location and welding it on.

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankencooler/013.jpg

Bob says yes his ability to make nice-looking aluminum welds sucks, but it will never come off.

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankencooler/014.jpg

the cooler fits splendidly in this location, but whats missing here?

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankencooler/015.jpg

the car horns, which have been relocated to the drivers side bumper support.

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankencooler/016.jpg

For an easier install of this cooler, especially if you opt out of the oil cooler, consider doing what we originally planned: Mount this thing on the bottom of the bumper. The only modification necessary to the car or the cooler should be the removal of some of that foam insulation off the bumper bottom.

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankencooler/psparts.gif

[MattRobertson]

The original plan was to surface-mount both coolers on top of the bumper, after cutting away some of the foam insulation that the slip-on bumper pad places in front of the coolers. The p/s cooler was to be bottom-mounted on the bumper, getting air from the lower grille. On install it was determined that the two coolers lined up would obscure too much of the radiator's direct air feed. So installation was re-thought. The power steering cooler was mounted up top on the rigid plastic framework that makes up the top portion of the support behind the fascia.

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankencooler/001.jpg

The oil and tranny coolers were mounted bottom-to-top, with brackets sandwiched in between and bolted to the bumper. This is a semi-rigid mount on its own, and this is not an accident. If a harder mount were effected, and somebody makes an 'oops' with a surprisingly deep dip, curb or otherwise low flying object, the give thats available thanks the mounting incorporates some fault tolerance into the picture. If you beat on it it might not break.

There are a couple of inches of air space in front of the coolers, and another couple behind them so there is no contact with the a/c condenser.

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankencooler/002.jpg

The brackets are actually held on with two bolts per support onto the bumper. The above picture was taken midway into the mounting process. Furthermore, the bolts are mounted with nuts and washers to ensure that once on they stay on. To accomplish that, two holes had to be cut into the bumper itself, as seen below.

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankencooler/003.jpg

Once you attach lines to the top and bottom, and lash those lines down, the system isn't going to wobble around and will in fact be rigid unless you bash it and your front end with the ground, or a wall.

Use Anti-Seize on all threaded connections.

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankencooler/004.jpg

And plenty of this stuff when making up your high-presssure hose end connections. A bit of tape wrapped around the hose end when assembling the connectors will tell you if your hose is backing out of the connector vs. the connector screwing itself in like it should be.

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankencooler/005.jpg

ADDED April 6 2007:
You can see from the above pics that the two stacked plate coolers were originally mounted with Cat 8 nuts and bolts attaching their floor plates to an aluminum strap, which in turn is mounted to the bumper. Concerns were expressed privately to me that this can allow enough 'give' to cause the coolers to vibrate and -- over time -- break a seal and leak, despite the additional anchor points found at bottom and top from the secured hoses. One possible solution was to use the mounting kits provided by Earls Plumbing which essentially surround and cradle the cooler. InferAl's transmission cooler, detailed further on in this thread, uses this and more custom bracketing to get the mounting job done.

A representative from Earl's Plumbing came up with an entirely different solution when I asked him to take a look at this project (picture and a full report will come soon). While the solution was unique and innovative, I felt it required a lot of (expensive) metal fabrication to accomplish.

I wanted an inexpensive solution that didn't require disassembly of the coolers to fit. Here's what I came up with (and when I went to Bob at SVS, I found he had come up with almost exactly the same idea on his own):

Go down to your local hardware store and get yourself some stainless steel all-thread -- essentially a threaded metal dowel... a giant screw without a head. Instead of using bolts that secure the coolers only at their bases, run the all-thread entirely thru both coolers, from top to bottom. Secure the bases on each cooler with a cat 8 washer, lock washer and nut, thereby providing firm support for the bases. Then at the top of each cooler on the inside of the support 'ear', do the same, except provide a bit of outward pressure so the nut/washer combo is providing support as opposed to clamping down. lastly, on the outer ends of the tops of both coolers, use a bit of 2" x 1/8" aluminum strap, drilled to match the coolers' 'earholes', and clamp down onto the ends of the all-thread with cat 8 nylock nuts and washers so the force of the nuts is distributed across the ear more evenly than it would be if you bolted them in directly.

Its a lot easier to just show pictures of than it is to explain:

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankencooler/mount_both.jpg
http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankencooler/mount_top.jpg
http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankencooler/mount_close.jpg

The resulting mount is absolutely solid while still retaining the flexibility of the strapping mounted to the bumper (remember, that provides a bit of fault tolerance in case of a fender bender of some kind that would otherwise blow out the coolers if they were rigidly mounted).

I got all of the parts at Lowe's for about $20.

Also, when the above was completed I also had the styrofoam insert cut down so it doesn'tt obscure the coolers at all. put 3 more rows of the tranny cooler in direct airflow (i.e. all of them) and did the same for the oil cooler on the bottom.
http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankencooler/styrofoam.jpg

ADDED JUN 16 2007: Looking at the parts lists above you can see that EAR-309110ERL, used down at the oil sandwich adapter, is about the same part as AER-FBM4034, used on the other end at the oil cooler. The use of two different elbow fittings was an accident of necessity on install day -- the Earl's fittings were all we could get. However, the parts are a little different. EAR-309110ERL is a tighter, more compact turn than the Aeroquip elbow. Since space wound up being an issue down at the sandwich, I would be cautious about buying 4 Aeroquip fittings -- which swivel on both sides whereas the Earls parts only swivel on one -- and expecting them to fit down below. Likewise you could buy 4 Earls fittings and save $6 off the project cost, but the Earls fittings do not swivel on both sides and this can promote hose kinks, skinned knuckles and foul language. I would spend the extra $6 if I were you.

[MattRobertson]

I'll add to this post as discovery runs its course. For now all I have is this:

I wonder if it would be a good idea to snip away the insulation that rises over the bumper top and bottom, thereby exposing more cooler rows to direct airflow. Its an idea I kick myself for not having at the time of install. Can't see what it would hurt, really. Just need 5 minutes with a hacksaw blade.
Investigation seems to make the answer "Yes" on Magnums for both the top and bottom foam overlap. On 300's the answer is murkier. The bottom portion appears to form fit to the 300 grille and probably provides support, vibration resistance or both. This is unfortunate as, on the Magnum, there is significantly better airflow with our fully open lower grille and it'd be nice to improve the 300 airflow any way we can. Meister's complete removal of the lower plastic underbody shroud comes to mind immediately as a big plus. Chargers are an unknown but likely better than a 300 but not as good as a Magnum, if the size of the air inlet is any indication.
The heat sink is certainly doing its job. After a reasonably leisurely, more or less straight-line drive thru town at speeds ranging from 40-60 mph I parked at my office, popped the hood and reached down and touched the p/s cooler. Dang that thing was hot! Not so hot that I needed to pull my hand away, but enough to surprise me. The heat sink is definitely doing its job. The tranny cooler was so hot I couldn't leave my hand on it. (added Mar 05 '07)
See Post #61 for my detailed comments after LX Spring Fling's Track Day at California Motor Speedway. Short version: the coolers worked fantastically for me but Meister's 300C behaved poorly. It is either an airflow issue or there's something else going on with his car. (added March 31, '07)All comments and observations are welcome. How can we make it better?

[InferAl]

That list of parts for the tranny cooler is that everything that is needed to do the job. There is only one braided hose on the list and the picture looks like there are 2.Are the Magnum and Charger front ends similar. If I would just do the tranny cooler could it be mounted right on top of the bumper like your original plan or would a bracket have to be fabricated
Thanks

[MattRobertson]

That list of parts for the tranny cooler is that everything that is needed to do the job. Yes. You have the two elbows that come out of the cooler. Then you have the two hose ends that cap the two hoses and terminate them with a -6AN female connection. Then you use the male -6AN to 3/8 barb to plug into that and into your existing, remaining tranny hose. You get two hoses via cutting the one long one in two. The steel hose doesn't go back much further than you can see, although if you wanted I'm sure you could trace that original hose back and do it all braided steel to its origin point. More $$$ :D No idea how long it would have to be.

[lafrad]

On my Car, there is a junction on the tranny lines... It appears to be a thermostat of some sort... I assume it shunts oil flow back to the tranny when the fluid is cold, and allows fluid to run through the coolers when its hot.
If you run new lines, I WOULD leave that in place. Properly warmed up fluid is just as important as keeping it cool.

[OoTLink]

*drool* That's so awesome.

[Mighty Noid]

Matt...

You are so CCCCCOOOOOOLLLL now... :)

nice work...

[MattRobertson]

If you run new lines, I WOULD leave that in place. Properly warmed up fluid is just as important as keeping it cool.Good point. Don't follow/replace those lines too far back. that is indeed a thermostat and it does exactly the job lafrad is talking about.


You are so CCCCCOOOOOOLLLL now... :)
:D Thanks!

[FlyByU]

Holy sh1t, thats one fancy setup.

[Becker]

And yet another great write-up by the Fresno Flash.

[CoolVanilla]

Matt, you've outdone yourself. This is one incredible writeup and blueprint; especially when one considers the difficulty that we all were having before you took this bull by its horns. Great work my friend!

Questions:
1) Any guess on individual component install times? I understand 6 hours for all 3 coolers, but what do you guess each might take individually. It seems to me much of your time was spent on the oil cooler. Is that impression appropriate?

2) Clearly you decided against painting these coolers. I know you addressed this late in the original thread, but it might make sense to address it here. Also, did you confirm that the Earl's can come in black?

3) Clearance... do ya think guys with inset grills (like me) are going to have clearance problems? I dont think so, just in looking at the pics, but I'd like your opinion.

Again my friend, amazing job!

[BIGDAVE]

VERY NICE INSTALL!! The only thing I would suggest would go inline with stock tranny cooler with new one.I put mine that way.What I like is at the end of a run is turning on the FULL defrost it cools really FAST.Just my 2cents.
BIGDAVE:thumbs_u:

[MattRobertson]

1) Any guess on individual component install times? I understand 6 hours for all 3 coolers, but what do you guess each might take individually. It seems to me much of your time was spent on the oil cooler. Is that impression appropriate?Thats a good question. The answer is going to vary. The tranny cooler's hard lines took awhile to make up, but other folks aren't going to be doing that I think. The p/s cooler's welding and horn relocation took extra time, but if you live in a cold clime and skip the oil cooler you can direct-mount it on the bottom and skip all that. As for the oil cooler, you won't be doing any sleuthing to see if stuff fits, and if you opt for the Earl's single-piece elbow you can eliminate the time it took to re-tap the oil sandwich adapter.

And as for Meister's install, he should get a lot of credit here for being first, getting his done the day before mine. There was a lot of learning done on his car. As such I would say his install cannot be considered for purposes of measuring time.

And of course there are economies involved in doing it all at once. Removing the fascia and underpanels comes to mind. Thats what? 15 minutes maybe right there?

I think asking Bob is a good idea and I'll do so and come back and amend this post after he hollers back.

EDIT: Talked to Bob. There is a bunch of overlap involved on the various parts. He thinks 2 hrs per individual cooler if done as a standalone job. The good news is we have pretty much done all of the mystery sleuthing here and for the rest of you folks its just assembly from this point forward.

2) Clearly you decided against painting these coolers. I know you addressed this late in the original thread, but it might make sense to address it here. Also, did you confirm that the Earl's can come in black?I didn't paint the coolers for a couple of reasons. First of all, I didn't want to insulate the coolers in any way. Earl's coolers are painted in a special way that infuses the paint into the surface of the material (I was told by Earl's how it was done but sorry... didn't take notes on that part). I was also told I could paint them but to be careful not to layer on too much. As for the p/s cooler, it is a natural aluminum finish so you'd want to scuff it up pretty good and then put on a thin coat of flat black.

But my decision wasn't all technical. Some of it was cosmetic. The things aren't all that noticeable to the casual passersby and they have a cool affect on gearheads. After saying my goodbyes at SVS I was backing out of the service bay and I see everyone crowding around at the back of the bay, pointing and grinning. I ask whats up and they say "we can see em and they look kewwwwl!" So I jump out and run over and look at the car at a distance for the first time, I can see them and they do look cool. Meister came to the same decision himself.

EDIT: Yes Earl's coolers are available in black. Just add an 'A' in front of the trailing 'ERL' in the part number. Trouble is Summit doesn't sell them. I was given a number and name by Earl's for a SoCal guy who does sell them and may be induced to price down to Summit's level. I'll try and scare that number up and post it.

3) Clearance... do ya think guys with inset grills (like me) are going to have clearance problems? I dont think so, just in looking at the pics, but I'd like your opinion.I agree. I think if you stick to the plan as described you'd be fine. HOWEVER, your p/s cooler might be tucked out of the airstream. On the plus side, heat sink coolers are meant to excel out of direct airstreams. Still, watch that.

The only thing I would suggest would go inline with stock tranny cooler with new one.Yup. See my closing comment and photo on the tranny cooler post. I'd like to redo that and put them in series. The original plan was to do them in series but time wasn't on our side.

[GEORGE]

Question's
1-have You Taken Into Account On How Much Heat Your Dumping Into The Engine Cooling System With The Placement Of All Of These Coolers In Front Of Rad.?
2- What Tranny. Line Is The [hot] Discharge Line From Trany-location?

[MattRobertson]

Question's
1-have You Taken Into Account On How Much Heat Your Dumping Into The Engine Cooling System With The Placement Of All Of These Coolers In Front Of Rad.?
We've had enough runs done to know that there is no adverse effect on engine temperature. If anything its running the same at cruise, the same in town and cooler under stress. I've put at least 350 miles on the system since last week, including a 140 mile highway cruise and a 122-mile mountain animal run in 60-70 degree weather, with speeds ranging from about 30-80 mph mostly locked into 2nd gear, where typical rpm's are no less than 3500 and typically stay in the 4500-5750 range. If I have any sort of extended straight where I can see for awhile I try and bump into 3rd for as long as I can, and a severe set of esses may make me drop to 1st, but generally its all 2nd gear. On this run I would ordinarily expect the engine temp to climb to at least the second hash mark past midpoint (with my 180 tstat I ordinarily rest one hashmark before midpoint) and this last trip it only approached the midpoint without touching it. Thats a significant drop on a road I run frequently and so am familiar with.

Meister, with his full sweep gauges, has put the car through a *much* more thorough single-run test and, among other things, confirmed no increase in engine temp.

And regardless, I was never concerned with an increase from heat going backwards. Most of that heat was resident in the engine in the first place -- or the majority of it was with respect to the oil cooler. Besides, with all of the airflow coming in from the lower grille area the heat is going to be mitigated still further. Either way, effect on engine cooling is zero at worst and, given a 57000 btu/hr thermostatically-controlled heat dumper was just put in I'd surmise that the cooling system doesn't have to work as hard anymore.

I have an dual A-pillar pod in my near future. Or an MSD Dashhawk if they get on the stick and add in oil pressure and oil temp. I'd really like to see if the increased open grille area of the Magnum lets me run cooler than Meister on water temp.


2- What Tranny. Line Is The [hot] Discharge Line From Trany-location?

Not sure. Why do you ask?

[CoolVanilla]

EDIT: Talked to Bob. There is a bunch of overlap involved on the various parts. He thinks 2 hrs per individual cooler if done as a standalone job. The good news is we have pretty much done all of the mystery sleuthing here and for the rest of you folks its just assembly from this point forward.I'm going to go for the tranny and power steering cooler installs, and forego the oil. You guys run these cars so much harder so much more often than I do, it just doesn't make economical sense to install one. Especially so when you consider I run 100% synth oil all the time, and still change it every 3-4k. Install quote time is 2.5 hours for the tranny and power steering.

EDIT: Yes Earl's coolers are available in black. Just add an 'A' in front of the trailing 'ERL' in the part number. Trouble is Summit doesn't sell them. I was given a number and name by Earl's for a SoCal guy who does sell them and may be induced to price down to Summit's level. I'll try and scare that number up and post it.Confirmed. I had to call Earl's directly and spoke with a gentleman that literally went way out of his way to find one of these for me. He said he has 7 of them on the shelf, but the problem is most distribs wait to order in bulk and thus they almost never ship this particular unit, and when they do its the grey one you have.

After a bunch of digging and calling, he found one for me in Indiana and put me in touch with the sales guy directly. Talk about customer service!

Anyway, that distributor is "Earl's Servi-Shop #3 (http://www.earls3.com/)", 800-331-4639, talk to Mark and ask for part number "41606A" specifically. The additional info in Matt's list is specific to Summit.

[InferAl]

I took a peak through the cracks with a flashlight and it appears my car has a power steering cooler running across the top of the radiator. I was looking for a place to mount a tranny cooler but it looks different than your guys cars. Has anyone mounted one of these in a Charger

[Silver Bullit]

Are you selling this kit.

[MattRobertson]

I took a peak through the cracks with a flashlight and it appears my car has a power steering cooler running across the top of the radiator. I was looking for a place to mount a tranny cooler but it looks different than your guys cars. Has anyone mounted one of these in a Chargeryeah thats right. All LX RT's have that single-loopback p/s cooler running across the top. Your service guy or you needs to 86 it. In my case (Meister's too) that involved pulling the thing out (snap off the plastic tabs). The next thing our (Jim and I had the job done at the same shop) installers did was spray and blow clean the condenser that had about 45k-miles worth of crapola worked into the vanes... yet another reason why it takes so much billable time to do this job.

Then you remount the condenser. At this point you have two hose ends ready to attach to a whole new cooling source.

I didn't go over any of this originally, did I? OK I'll adjust the posts above tomorrow. Jim and I both have pics of the process and I can lay it out for you at least a little.

Are you selling this kit.

Oh HELL no. I learned my lesson with the Frankentake fundraiser. NEVER again. What I have done is told you everything you need to know to buy this stuff yourself, including parts and where to buy. You want to get fancy from there and find 40 places to buy stuff and save a buck or three, have at it. But honestly I tried that already myself. I say this with no modesty whatsoever, having lived this project for longer than anyone should have: If you want to find better sources for an easier experience you've got your work cut out for you.

[InferAl]

I was thinking when I took my car in for the Heads,cam and Converter it would be a good opportunity to do the tranny cooler but I was looking to see where it could be mounted. It looks like there is nothing in front of the radiator all the way down to the bottom. I was in the garage with a flashlight so I couldn't see real well. Whe you said you make two lines from one are they just compression fittings on to the lines.Also is there a special adapter to hook up to use both tranny coolers
Sorry for all the questions but if I do it I would like to have everything ready for them
Thanks

[MattRobertson]

I was thinking when I took my car in for the Heads,cam and Converter it would be a good opportunity to do the tranny cooler Absolutely. You are already paying someone to take the nose off.

but I was looking to see where it could be mounted. It looks like there is nothing in front of the radiator all the way down to the bottom.

The bumper is in front of it, just like the 300 and the Magnum, right? Thats what we're mounting to. Tranny cooler goes onto the bracket and sits essentially on top of the bumper. In fact, if you wanted to, I bet you could bolt it directly to the bumper provided you were OK with no oil cooler down the road.

Whe you said you make two lines from one do you need a special tool to crimp the ends on to the lines.Also is there a special adapter to hook up both tranny coolers or is that included in the listhmmm you don't make two lines from one anywhere. Where'd I give you that idea? If I'm giving the wrong impression somewhere I want to fix it.

Insofar as hooking them up in series, there is no blueprint for that yet as it hasn't been done, at least not in tthis thread. Hemi31 has done it with his own system. And CoolVanilla's Frankencooler will do it maybe as soon as the end of this week. But for now the following is a bit of supposition:

Leave the existing tranny cooler's incoming line alone. Run a new outgoing line (use the steel hose and connecting to the rubber hose, not the hard line) to the new cooler. Run from the cooler back to the existing outgoing (return to tranny) line and plug it in.

The above will let you work with all of the parts in the list, but if your shop guy can connect directly to the hard line that might result in a little less extra plumbing. Depends on the shop's level of expertise I would think.

Anyone know if it would be better -- and why -- to make reverse the cooler order above and make the hot fluid go to the new cooler first?

Sorry for all the questions Not at all. Thats the whole point of the thread :-)

[InferAl]

That list of parts for the tranny cooler is that everything that is needed to do the job. the list andThere is only one braided hose on the picture looks like there are 2.Are the Magnum and Charger front ends similar. If I would just do the tranny cooler could it be mounted right on top of the bumper like your original plan or would a bracket have to be fabricated
Thanks

Yes. You have the two elbows that come out of the cooler. Then you have the two hose ends that cap the two hoses and terminate them with a -6AN female connection. Then you use the male -6AN to 3/8 barb to plug into that and into your existing, remaining tranny hose. You get two hoses via cutting the one long one in two . The steel hose doesn't go back much further than you can see, although if you wanted I'm sure you could trace that original hose back and do it all braided steel to its origin point. More $$$ :D No idea how long it would have to be.

I as on Summitt's site and looking at all the parts and was starting to get the idea what is being done.
Did you guys make the fabricate the brackets. I like the idea of running both tranny coolers.
The earl is out of stock right now

[MattRobertson]

OK I see. You cut one six-foot-long hose to make two 3-ft hoses :-) (or whatever the precise length it is you need... it'll be less than 3ft each and you will have hose left over). Those hoses in turn go into the two hoses that are already there. No splicing... butt-end connection. The process is different for in-series like I outlined above.

My shop fab'd the brackets and yours will need to do the same. They'll also have to supply the nuts and bolts for fastening the brackets to the bumper. That and stuff like welding up the p/s cooler for top mounting is something only a speed shop with the ability to fab up parts can do. No sweat for that kind of shop but a service station garage or general repair place is probably going to get out of its depth quick. You want to have someone who knows what they are doing cutting the hoses and putting the ends on properly, for example.

CoolVanilla managed to find a seller with the coolers in stock and he posted a link above.

[Aperformance]

Nice work Matt! Is there room for a Beer Cooler? :beerchug:

[InferAl]

And plenty of this stuff when making up your high-presssure hose end connections. A bit of tape wrapped around the hose end when assembling the connectors will tell you if your hose is backing out of the connector vs. the connector screwing itself in like it should be.

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankencooler/005.jpg


Do you get this stuff at Summitt also

[InferAl]

Never mind just found it at Summit

PN # ARP-100-9903 1.69 oz $6.95
#ARP-100-9906 1/2 pint $17.95

[MattRobertson]

Never mind just found it at Summit

PN # ARP-100-9903 1.69 oz $6.95
#ARP-100-9906 1/2 pint $17.95I hope your shop has this or something like it on hand already. I wouldn't go out and buy it for them. Same goes for anti-seize.


I had a shop guy tell me once, with respect to header bolts and anti-seize "Hell no I don't use it. I want them to stay in there forever!" and he was serious.

[InferAl]

I hope your shop has this or something like it on hand already. I wouldn't go out and buy it for them. Same goes for anti-seize.


I had a shop guy tell me once, with respect to header bolts and anti-seize "Hell no I don't use it. I want them to stay in there forever!" and he was serious.

For 6.95 I think I will get a small tube and maybe put the one end on myself. The mechanic is really good there shouldn't be a problem. I went and showed him a picture of what I intended to do and he had no problem. I called the place where CV ordered his and ordered one, I like yourself like the silver. Mark the guy I talked with said they had a bracket kit so I sent him some of the pics to see if they would work on our cars. He was concerned that there was no bracket on top. Yours is cool with the hard lines but what about the braided steel lines

[MattRobertson]

He was concerned that there was no bracket on top. Yours is cool with the hard lines but what about the braided steel linesBoth mine and Meisters were very solid. However we also had the oil cooler underneath, and this in turn is secured at the bottom forming a bottom anchor point. Once everything gets tied down its real solid as I mentioned, with some give in case of impact. It should be interesting to see what, if anything, the shop that has done the two installs so far does differently with CV's system, which like yours will not have the oil cooler.

[CoolVanilla]

Soooo. I just received my 41606A. I open the box and *whamo* I get blasted with the unmistakable aroma of fresh spray paint. Yup... the "A" just means "hey spray paint this one black before shipping". I called Mark to confirm this and he readily did so. He also confirmed that painting it black will have no adverse affect on its cooling abilities.

So my nationwide search for the mysterious "A" was essentially pointless. Save yourself the trouble and order without the A, and paint it yourself.

Edit: Think I'll give Earl's a call directly actually. I'd swear I heard somewhere along the line that the black was in fact a special coating process, NOT spraypaint.

[CoolVanilla]

Called Earl's directly and confirmed: they are spray painted. Truly there is no need to hunt down the "A".

[LouZ]

Called Earl's directly and confirmed: they are spray painted. Truly there is no need to hunt down the "A".

If the cooler is made of aluminum........you can use a gun part solution called aluminum black to turn it black without putting a coating on it. It actually stains tha aluminum black.

[NasaRacer]

I have the Police Oil Cooler kit on order and will install it before heading to LA for the Spring Event. Also on my way there on Wednesday March 21st I will be running a NASA(National Auto Sports Association) track event at Laguna Seca. That will be a real test for the cooler.

I will post on how well it performs.

As to what I plan for my SRT8 Magnum cooling wise. Once I go to a higher speed stall I am going to install a huge stand alone aftermarket tranny cooler.

Then remove the small stock PS cooler and route the PS fluid into the now unused tranny cooler built into the AC condensor. The way I figure if this cooler is good enough to cool the stock tranny it should be more than upto the task of cooling the PS fluid.

And also with this setup the huge tranny cooler is the only cooler right out in front getting the first blast of cold air coming into through the girll.

The Tranny has a thermostat as mentioned. Anyone know if the PS system uses one as well??

[MattRobertson]

The Tranny has a thermostat as mentioned. Anyone know if the PS system uses one as well??I haven't heard of one. As near as I can tell, the fluid gets real hot real quick. Even a simple commute to work heats my big cooler up pretty good.

As I said over at 3CF, Your p/s cooler re-route is a real neat idea. The only downside I can see is it puts a heat feed back onto the radiator. My engine seems to be running cooler under stress and the only thing that anyone has come up with to explain it that makes any kind of sense is there is no longer a big cooler in virtual direct contact with the radiator. Need more testing to say anything more than that WAG.

[MattRobertson]

Oh and are you running Laguna as an organized event or is it a general track day open to paying participants? I know there's an open day in Aug or Sep that I'm hoping to attend there. Maybe you could start a thread to tell us about your group so I don't wind up hijacking my own thread :-)... but any chance I can get to be on that track is a chance I jump at... although I'd have to skip the 21st no matter what.

[InferAl]

Being the Charger grille is so much smaller than the Magnum will the tranny cooler block to much air from getting to the radiator. Theres not much room in there I'm having a hard time finding a place to mount it and even in the middle the croos section in the grille blocks alot of surface and the air dam on the bottom is only about 2 inches high.
http://photo.ringo.com/196/196465832O559998261.jpg

[InferAl]

I haven't heard of one. As near as I can tell, the fluid gets real hot real quick. Even a simple commute to work heats my big cooler up pretty good.

As I said over at 3CF, Your p/s cooler re-route is a real neat idea. The only downside I can see is it puts a heat feed back onto the radiator. My engine seems to be running cooler under stress and the only thing that anyone has come up with to explain it that makes any kind of sense is there is no longer a big cooler in virtual direct contact with the radiator. Need more testing to say anything more than that WAG.

That makes perfect sense

[MattRobertson]

Being the Charger grille is so much smaller than the Magnum will the tranny cooler block to much air from getting to the radiator. Theres not much room in there I'm having a hard time finding a place to mount it and even in the middle the croos section in the grille blocks alot of surface and the air dam on the bottom is only about 2 inches high.I have no idea, but I'll try and look at a Charger in the not too distant future. Maybe today. SRT8-4D² is supposed to stop by my office today.

Is the front end behind, or even with, the trailing edge of the bumper? If so you've got loads of room behind the bumper. I would be real surprised if it has less room between bumper and radiator but anything is possible. Its the same for a 300C and Mag.

You get a LOT of air in from the lower grille, or at least you should. The radiator is sealed to the front end and there should be only one real high-flow exit point: Thru the radiator.

This is all speculation until someone does it. My gut tells me a tranny cooler -- even one hooked up in series -- is not going to be a problem.

[CoolVanilla]

Install is in progress. Thought you guys might like to see the execution of the 'original' plan for the PS cooler.

Notice I don't have any of the impact foam up front (that is in need of cutting away). Not sure why... it could be it was removed when the grille and front facia work was done.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/CoolVanilla/070309%20Cooler%20Install/cooler1.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/CoolVanilla/070309%20Cooler%20Install/cooler2.jpg

There is a potential chafe issue here (using the stock lines). Some foam or a larger dia piece of tubing takes are of that issue though.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/CoolVanilla/070309%20Cooler%20Install/cooler3.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/CoolVanilla/070309%20Cooler%20Install/cooler4.jpg

That PS cooler is mounted in direct airflow. You can see it thru the lower grille. If this doesn't keep things cool, nothing will.

We're working on the tranny cooler now. Mine, due to the Mopower grill, needs to be mounted to one side or the other to keep it in direct air flow. We're also fabbing up the lines ot enable using the stock cooler inline with the new cooler. Pics to come...

[CoolVanilla]

Ok tranny cooler is in. Its inline, after the stock cooler.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/CoolVanilla/070309%20Cooler%20Install/cooler5.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/CoolVanilla/070309%20Cooler%20Install/cooler6.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/CoolVanilla/070309%20Cooler%20Install/cooler7.jpg

Please forgive me crap Paint skills. Just trying to show the flow:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/CoolVanilla/070309%20Cooler%20Install/cooler8.jpg

As for the mounting; we played with all thread and came up with a system that would work. But there just is no need in a setup that utilized hard stainless lines like this. We can grab the top of the tranny cooler and rock it back and fourth, and the entire stock radiator assembly moves with it. For those that use steel braided lines, maybe its worth the extra piece of mind to go with a more rigid mount. Still, though, I think you're more than safe with this setup as is.

[MattRobertson]

No foam at all??? So how does that affect the stability of the front end, with respect to the nosepiece? Can you shove it in or something?

Mine is definitely getting snipped away at some point. Sure wish I could do it without taking the nose off. What a PITA.

[CoolVanilla]

No foam at all??? So how does that affect the stability of the front end, with respect to the nosepiece? Can you shove it in or something?

Mine is definitely getting snipped away at some point. Sure wish I could do it without taking the nose off. What a PITA.Nope none at all. And no there is no flex. Heh speed test proven :wink:

Seriously though, I think the stability comes from the rigid fiberglass grill. That thing is as solid as a rock and its bolted every few inches around the perimeter. Also, the chin spoiler is made of the same rigid fiberglass so I'm sure that helps.

[InferAl]

I have no idea, but I'll try and look at a Charger in the not too distant future. Maybe today. SRT8-4D² is supposed to stop by my office today.

Is the front end behind, or even with, the trailing edge of the bumper? If so you've got loads of room behind the bumper. I would be real surprised if it has less room between bumper and radiator but anything is possible. Its the same for a 300C and Mag.

You get a LOT of air in from the lower grille, or at least you should. The radiator is sealed to the front end and there should be only one real high-flow exit point: Thru the radiator.

This is all speculation until someone does it. My gut tells me a tranny cooler -- even one hooked up in series -- is not going to be a problem.

Heres a pic. I won't be there when he does it and he is going to have his hands full with everything else and I was trying to have it all ready to go for him brackets and all so he is not spending alot of time thinking on how to do it at $90 per hr. I think that makes alot of sense what you said about this being a stand alone cooler taking alot of heat away from the radiator . I was also told that by the guy that sells the coolers
Thanks for being patient with me
http://photo.ringo.com/196/196665328O395776900.jpg

[MattRobertson]

Being the Charger grille is so much smaller than the Magnum will the tranny cooler block to much air from getting to the radiator. Theres not much room in there I'm having a hard time finding a place to mount it and even in the middle the croos section in the grille blocks alot of surface and the air dam on the bottom is only about 2 inches high.

I just looked at SRT8-4D²'s SRT Charger and there's plenty of room back behind the bumper. Its basically the same setup as the rest of the LX platform. You look to have the same room I do. I didn't take a tape measure to it but I was right there on it and it looked fine.

I have been talking to Earl's Plumbing and their engineer had an interesting proposition for improving stability that you might want to try. Triangular mounts right and left to add some support to the top, both for front/back and right/left lateral stress. This will also serve as a funnel to bring air into the cooler.

Again going with my gut, we have loads of air coming into the front of these cars.

[InferAl]

Where do they sell them do they have a website to see them

[MattRobertson]

OK I hadn't seen your post when I made the above one. Your picture shows the area although it does look a little crowded.

When the fascia comes off, there's room to work. Don't even try to do this by reaching down thru that hole.

The p/s cooler obstructs your vision. It should be (but might not be) underneath the p/s cooler. That *does* take up space. Its not a problem for us guys who are doing a new p/s cooler. Or for NasaRacer who is doing the switcheroo he described where he is turning the tranny cooler into a p/s cooler (better flush the tranny fluid out of that thing as these cars are supposed to need p/s fluid only).

I hadn't thought of the p/s cooler still being there. I'd get a tape measure out and see if you're going to bump into the thing. Of all the coolers I think replacing the p/s is the most important. If it blows the car is disabled.

[MattRobertson]

Where do they sell them do they have a website to see them
Your shop guy makes it from scratch. I'll post pics of what they sent me later tonight or tomorrow.

[Hemi31]

Ok tranny cooler is in. Its inline, after the stock cooler.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/CoolVanilla/070309%20Cooler%20Install/cooler5.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/CoolVanilla/070309%20Cooler%20Install/cooler6.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/CoolVanilla/070309%20Cooler%20Install/cooler7.jpg

Please forgive me crap Paint skills. Just trying to show the flow:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/CoolVanilla/070309%20Cooler%20Install/cooler8.jpg

As for the mounting; we played with all thread and came up with a system that would work. But there just is no need in a setup that utilized hard stainless lines like this. We can grab the top of the tranny cooler and rock it back and fourth, and the entire stock radiator assembly moves with it. For those that use steel braided lines, maybe its worth the extra piece of mind to go with a more rigid mount. Still, though, I think you're more than safe with this setup as is.I mounted Mine similar to that Under the bumper support and made a lower bracket that ties into the the lower radiator support using the factory hole......I know you want a pic....but I don't have one....yet!

[CoolVanilla]

Here's a quick shot I snapped on the way out:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/CoolVanilla/070309%20Cooler%20Install/cooler9.jpg

She's awful dirty so I'll get her cleaned up and take a few more tomorrow. I'm actually really digging seeing the coolers back in there. It adds an aire of muscle behind the hustle :wink:

[pigpen]

Damn I love your car!! Looking good guys!

[InferAl]

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/CoolVanilla/070309%20Cooler%20Install/cooler6.jpg



With your cooler that far over to the drivers side did you have to leave the shroud off of that side. I also want to mount mine as far over to that as I can

[sunnysrt8]

I am looking to install at least a trans cooler but possibly an oil and ps cooler on my JGC SRT8. Anyone know if the cooling system is the same? After a long day running at a road course this past weekend my tranny overheat light came on for a few seconds (full writeup at the red site cherokeesrt8.com titled First Road Course in the general section, sorry it wouldn't let me post a link because I haven't posted much on this site). I don't think space to fit the coolers should be an issue on the JGC but I will probably pull the bumber off this weekend to check. Anyone install the mopar police package oil cooler yet? I think I saw that Jeff at mopar super center had all the components listed as a package.

[MattRobertson]

NasaRacer has the police oil cooler on and he will be at the track at Spring Fling this weekend. Hopefully we are going to learn stuff after the weekend is over that we'll be able to post up. I have no idea about spacing or the cooling system of the JCSRT. But seeing an overheat light com on -- no matter how brief -- would be enough for me right there. That and the fact that we know the p/s fluid system is definitely capable of overheating even on SRT's... I'd call those two coolers a must for a tracked LX. Jury is still out on whether the police oil cooler will be a good answer for a tracked car, but my gut tells me that if you flat out remove the tranny cooler from its original location in contact with the radiator (thus removing that large direct heat transfer... as in do NOT hook it up in series with the replacement cooler) then adding that extra capacity to the system will give you plenty of capacity to handle the extra strain the police cooler will put on your engine coolant.

In actual use, I am seeing a significant difference in my engine heat when under stress. Extended runs (locking the car in 2nd gear on mountain roads for 30-50 miles and roaring around at 4500-5900 rpm's) have not been able to get water temp over about 225 degrees. I don't think I have seen 230 even once.

So far I am thinking this reduction in ECT -- a system I have done nothing to bolster -- is due to removing the tranny cooler from the radiator and thus giving me a lot more headroom when I am kicking it.

Looking forward to California Motor Speedway on Sunday to try this on a for-real track and see if the above continues to hold up.

[Redfox0099]

what would actually removing the OEM Trans cooler from the car add if anything to cooling abilities of the Radiator since it would get more airflow from that side.....possibly a good idea?

[Super T]

I've seen the btu ratings for the aftermarket coolers... any clue what it is for the stock radiator? Here's a little secret for y'all...

Btu/hr = 1.085 * CFM * dT

Btu/hr is the heat transfer rate.
1.085 is a constant made up of a bunch of conversion factors that's close enough for this application.
CFM is the amount of air running through the car (Cubic Feet per Minute). The way I'd figure that is simple... Velocity (convert your miles per hour to feet per second... MPH times 5280/3600) and multiply it by the face area of the radiator (width times height as you're staring at the front of the car).
That leaves dT... this is the temperature rise across the radiator in degrees F. So if your dT is 30, driving on a 70 degree day raises the air to 100 degrees on the back side of the radiator.

That's for heat on the air side. In terms of how much heat is sucked out of the fluid in question, that depends on all the above stuff, plus properties of the fluid, plus the difference in temperature between the entering fluid (say 250 degrees F for water) and the temperature of the entering air (maybe 95F on a summer day at the first thing it hits).

My point? Fill in the blanks and we can calculate how detrimental it is to mount one cooler behind another if we really care. Whatever gives off the least amount of heat should go in front... it'll have less of an effect on the big load than doing it the other way around. make sense???

My head hurts.

[MattRobertson]

what would actually removing the OEM Trans cooler from the car add if anything to cooling abilities of the Radiator since it would get more airflow from that side.....possibly a good idea?You can't do that. Good thinking but its impossible as the tranny cooler is integral to the AC condenser. What we see as the radiator when we look in thru the grille is actually the tranny cooler and a/c condenser. Its a single integral unit. See pic below, taken from Post #3

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankencooler/019.jpg

If you look really closely at the top of that unit you can see that the top crossflow channels are wider than those underneath. The wide ones are the tranny cooler and the rest is the AC condenser.

You'd have to get a buzzsaw out :-O

I've seen the btu ratings for the aftermarket coolers... any clue what it is for the stock radiator? Absolutely none. I have inquired thru a back-channel on this and got no answer.

...The way I'd figure that is simple... Outstanding! All in favor of making SuperT official mathematician for cooling efficiency calcs?

Vote is unanimous :D

My point? Fill in the blanks and we can calculate how detrimental it is to mount one cooler behind another if we really care. Whatever gives off the least amount of heat should go in front... it'll have less of an effect on the big load than doing it the other way around. make sense???

Yup, but we only have one bank of things in front of the radiator, and we don't have the room to put anything behind the radiator. Right? So our positioning is essentially dictated by available space and can really only work one way. We can't even alter the stacking of the coolers (i.e. oil on top and tranny on bottom) without deleterious effects to cooling (hiding the tranny c ooler under the bumper entirely; no room for the oil cooler to fit in under the p/s cooler and probably still not enough room if we delete the p/s cooler).

Thats not to say I don't see a reason to do this. I would like to know what the radiator capacity is. I would also like to know what the stock tranny cooler capacity is (All I was told was "it makes ice cubes" and thats as technical as it got). This would tell us how much heat its putting into the radiator when positioned there.

I am going to learn a lot at the track this weekend, I hope.

[MattRobertson]

Yesterday was the LX Festival track event on the infield track at California Motor Speedway and I am pleased to be able to say I did not experience any surprises, although I did hit my highest temps yet -- not much of a surprise given it was a flat-out road course with a lot of shifting and WOT.

I was extremely pleased with the Frankencoolers' performance. There is no power-steering temp sensor, but my touch-it-carefully sensor on the tip of my fingers told me that cooler was mighty dam hot. Which is good as it means the cooler -- and the extra quart of fluid in the system -- is doing its job. I had no steering issues.

------

While I lacked an engine oil gauge, I did have tranny temp, which peaked at 257 degrees on my first and most brutal run. Thats less than 100 degrees more than when puttering down the freeway at a constant 70 mph speed (where temp is 165 degrees). Tranny temp peaks during my other two track sessions were in the high 240's.

After the first track run I parked the car in the garage area and ran the motor until temps ceased to decrease and began to increase. Even during the drive off the track, the tranny temp plunged from 240-250 to about 220. Running the motor with the hood up, temp bottomed at about 200 degrees before it began to climb (previous tests have shown this to be normal, and tranny temp will slowly climb if the car is left to sit and idle, exceeding 200 degrees routinely).

After the vehicle was shut off for awhile, Northern Rider needed a driver for a parts run, so off we went touring beautiful, scenic Fontana; drinking in the sights, sounds and oh yes, the smells for at least an hour and a few dozen miles. Upon our return I had to run straight to the track (I actually missed a lap or two) and the tranny went from the 190 degrees it had dipped to up to a high of 248 on the second track run.

Between runs 2 and 3, the car was allowed the same cool-down cycle and then rested until it was track time again. And temp was ... 185. I worked the shifting hard on this run thanks to a nearly exhausted set of brake pads, but still the tranny didn't go past the high 240's.

------

The real surprise was water temp, which peaked at 205 degrees.

!

I have my GSM fan mod and I never even used it. In fact I never even heard the engine fans kick on when I had the car pulled into the track bay, or when I was putt-putting back from the track to said bay.

I have a 180-degree tstat, and ordinarily I cruise right at 180 degrees. in in-city stop-and-go driving, it is common for the temp to climb to ... 200-210 degrees.

How can something like this possibly happen?

Here's my theory: By removing the transmission cooler from its stock position, which is direct-contact, full-width, 100%-heat-transfer to the radiator (it really is a smart design in that respect), I have removed a MAJOR heat source from the engine cooling system. You have seen my speculation on this earlier prior to the track day based on torture tests performed on back roads, and now the conclusion seems further borne out by experience.

Now, it is undeniable that I am putting some of that heat right back into the cooling system thanks to the fact that the Frankencooler transmission cooler is in front of the radiator as well. However, it is positioned in such a way that there is air flow in between the two and this is apparently enough to significantly reduce heat transfer to the cooling system.

Add to that the fact that there is now a 57,000 btu/hr oil cooler where there was none before bringing down oil temps, and this also helps -- at least a bit -- to keep the engine cool.

Whether I am right or wrong about any of this, the fact remains that I flogged the bejesus out of the car and it held up like a champ.

Is the story entirely perfect?

No. Meister is also running this same cooling system and he continues to experience heat problems. I will leave it to him to decide whether he was any better off 'after' as opposed to 'before'. Meister attributes this to reduced air circulation in the front of the 'C', 300C's don't have the maw-like lower grille opening that Magnums (and the 300C SRT8) have. If thats truly the case, then it would seem to indicate that the Chrysler 300C's stock fascia significantly shortchanges the 300C owner with respect to adding in auxiliary cooling so as to be able to track the car.

Meister has a plan. I'll leave it to him to discuss specifics.

Whats Next?

Laguna Seca Raceway on April 20th. I signed up today. Lots more track time than we got yesterday. Should be positively brutal. By then MSD should have figured out how to properly read oil temperature and I'll be set with respect to monitoring that value as well.

[InferAl]

Thats good news Matt. Hopefully by Friday I will recieve my Heads and cam and next week have it all installed.I already have the Trans cooler and we made a bracket for it. I'll post some pics when I can. BTW when they took your stock PS cooler off did you notice how it was attached, If the brackets were reusable ?

[InferAl]

Heading in Tues for the Heads, Cam, Converter,Mopar Oil Cooler and the Franken Cooler Trans Cooler. For the Trans Cooler we decided to move the P/S cooler to the bottom of the condenser. I mounted the Earl trans cooler in the sandwich brackets they sell for it
http://photo.ringo.com/201/201415666O078218888.jpg

And then made brackets and it will bolt straight up from the fender support
http://photo.ringo.com/201/201415163O473220204.jpg

I will try to get pics of the install but I won't be there I will be in work but I am going to leave them a camera and see if they will take some pics

[MattRobertson]

I'm going in Friday to SVS to have my install reinforced with all-thread running up thru both coolers. I have had zero problems but it is a quick and easy way to beef up supporrt on what -- honestly -- we think is already just fine in terms of stability. I think the full-cradle approach is a bit of overkill, but if I were to do it over again I'd do the full boat just cuz this system is all about do-it-once/do-it-right.

I may ask for some bits of billet on top and botttom to further distribute load and reinforce the setup. The all-thread will actually be *pushing* up on the top ears of each cooler on each end to provide support, rather than clamping down. What I am thinking is to also take a couple of chunks o' billet and, once the inner bit is handled, screw the billet down on top of each ear.

If thats hard to picture wait until next week when I get pics of it all. I will also be snipping away the foam covering the bumper and a few rows of the tranny and oil cooler.

[InferAl]

Just on thing the twist lock fitting that goes into the existing trans line. How exactly does that go on. it doesn't need a clamp or anything. Also I like that thought of also pushing up I may put a few bolts pushing up also
Thanks

[MattRobertson]

Post #5 edited with new pics of revised, uber-strong cooler installation.

[InferAl]

Just a few picks of the Frankencooler Trans Cooler on a Chareger. I used the Earls Cooler bracket and fabricated mounting brackets to bolt right on the bumper support, the bracket we made from pretty hard 1/8 inch steel that my bud brought home from work and we cut 2 pieces without the right tools it was not real pretty but strong enough, we also put a little bend in where it would bolt up to the bumper because the bumper support curves around so I painted it with chrome paint let it dry a couple days and went to mount it and it didn't look good so I went to Home Depot and bought a piece of 1/8 anluminum laid it over the steel bracket and drilled the holes polished it up and put a couple coats of glass wax on it and bolted it up to the cooler which actually accomplished 2 things looked better and twice as strong. I mounted it in the middle so not to block a lot of airflow from the radiator. The P/S cooler was in the way so we moved it down to the bottom of the radiator where it can get plenty of air from the bottom vents

http://photo.ringo.com/203/203383122O679643766.jpg

http://photo.ringo.com/203/203383150O539017250.jpg

http://photo.ringo.com/203/203383208O676441694.jpg

http://photo.ringo.com/203/203383219O646418221.jpg

http://photo.ringo.com/203/203383479O145039561.jpg

[MattRobertson]

Good show!

I think it was NasaRacer who suggested that you take the now-unused tranny cooler and make it into a p/s cooler. That may be an option for you but first monitor your tranny temps (MSD should be releasing the software update for the DashHawk that includes tranny temp very soon... I have it already as a beta tester). If you are solid on tranny temp then go ahead and repurpose the tranny cooler. If you are putting in a torque converter, then probably you want to hook up both coolers in series.

I will monitor what happens at Laguna and if tranny temps so much as hint at going higher than the previously seen peak I will hook mine in series. I have tons of extra cooling capacity in the water system now. If I do this I will keep the Frankencooler as the primary and make the stocker tranny cooler work on the cooled fluid returning from the Frankencooler so as to minimize the impact on engine temps. I'm good with giving back some of what I gained but want to try and not give it all back.

Also I have learned thru the use of the DashHawk that our tranny system's oil temperature thermostat is calibrated most likely to 165 or 167 degrees. Thats where it settles solidly on the highway. I can get it to go up from that temp but never below it.

[mhigham]

Good show!

Also I have learned thru the use of the DashHawk that our tranny system's oil temperature thermostat is calibrated most likely to 165 or 167 degrees. Thats where it settles solidly on the highway. I can get it to go up from that temp but never below it.

Same thing here Matt. 163 seems to be the magic number for me.

Mike

[MattRobertson]

Well, last Friday I put in one blistering track day at Laguna Seca Raceway. While our Spring Fling track day in Fontana at California Motor Speedway consisted of three 10-minute sessions, the Laguna event consisted of five (5!) 20-minute sessions. We really, really got the chance to stretch the beast's legs, and with the blistering speeds came brutal downshifting deceleration upon arrival at every curve. Over and over again. This was the test where I expected to see tranny temps that made me regret not hooking the tranny coolers up in series.

Didn't happen. Tranny temps did indeed hit the lower 250's (I saw 253-255 a few times) but for the most part stayed in the 230's and 240's.

Performance was no doubt not hurt by the fact that I have cut away the foam insulation obscuring the bottom 3 rows of the cooler from direct airflow.

And once again water temps were a complete non-issue, although they did climb to about 210 degrees at their worst extreme.

As for oil, I still do not have an oil temp gauge, although another LXForums.com member was there with me who does -- and who has the same system cooling his oil -- and he reported good temps. I'll leave the details to him if he has some time to post.

I continue to be pleased with this system after treating the car to the harshest of circumstances. If it turns out I don't have enough oil cooling -- which I seriously doubt is going to happen -- my water cooling system has so much added capacity available I could even throw on the Mopar oil cooler -- which is water-cooled -- for the most ridiculously overbuilt system ever.

[InferAl]

I don't have a trans temp gauge but the water and the oil seem to run cooler by 10 to 20 degrees than it did before

[RobAGD]

Al get a Dash Hawk :)

That have all the cool stuff working and more to come.

-R

[magnumdude]

bump to save for me! LOL

[sunnysrt8]

Ok tranny cooler is in. Its inline, after the stock cooler.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/CoolVanilla/070309%20Cooler%20Install/cooler5.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/CoolVanilla/070309%20Cooler%20Install/cooler6.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/CoolVanilla/070309%20Cooler%20Install/cooler7.jpg

Please forgive me crap Paint skills. Just trying to show the flow:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/CoolVanilla/070309%20Cooler%20Install/cooler8.jpg

As for the mounting; we played with all thread and came up with a system that would work. But there just is no need in a setup that utilized hard stainless lines like this. We can grab the top of the tranny cooler and rock it back and fourth, and the entire stock radiator assembly moves with it. For those that use steel braided lines, maybe its worth the extra piece of mind to go with a more rigid mount. Still, though, I think you're more than safe with this setup as is.


After reading through this thread mulitple times I think I am all set to place my order except I am not sure about one part. I plan to install the aftermarket trans cooler in series with the factory cooler like CoolVanilla did above. However, I think I am going to use the stainless braided lines instead of the hard lines. What kind of connector/fitting will I need to connect the new stainless braided line with the (steel)factor cooler output line? It lookes like CoolVanilla used a rubber line to connect the factory cooler output line to his new hard stainless line but I don't think that will work for me. Any suggestions would be appreciated!

[RobAGD]

Hey Matt do you have a higher than stock stall converter ?

The reason I ask is that I saw the same temps for the stock set up, but with the new high stall TC I am actually seeing lower temps around town and on highway but 8-10 degrees.

-R

[MattRobertson]

... I think I am going to use the stainless braided lines instead of the hard lines. What kind of connector/fitting will I need to connect the new stainless braided line with the (steel)factor cooler output line? When hooked in series, you would use rubber... As in snip the lines that are there now and re-route them Sooner or later, unless you go all the way back to where the factory rubber hose starts, you are going to connect to rubber. Its just a matter of where you do it and how much hard or braided line you want to pay for.

The parts list for the tranny cooler contemplates braided line and will work if you are hooking up in series or, as Meister and I did, individually. And check out what RobAGD just said in the post after yours.

Hey Matt do you have a high than stock stall converter ?No. Mine is stock.

The reason I ask is that I saw teh same temps for teh stock set up, but with the new high stall TC I am actually seeing lower temps around towna nd on highway but 8-10 degrees.

:wtf:

Maybe thats not so loony based on your answer to the next question: What about when you are flogging it? As in road-race flogging, up and down the gears for a few minutes?

[RobAGD]

I havent had a chance to beat the hell out of it, but when you do a bit of a brake stand it comes up into the low 190's fairly quick.

I have been keeping a rather sharp eye on the temps and so far its been cooler or right at stock temps.

-R

[MattRobertson]

I gotta believe it will spike when you get on it. Keep us posted though. It certainly wouldn't be the first time that conventional wisdom took a dump around here.

[Bubba's Dragon]

Matt is this going to be moved to the KB?

[MattRobertson]

I have absolutely no idea. CV whatchoo think (I just got off the phone with him 2 seconds ago... he's at the shop presiding over his motor rebuild, so he may not see this for awhile)?

[Bubba's Dragon]

No he is on line I think posting pictures of his upgraded ride.

[sunnysrt8]

Well after some investigating it appears that the GCSRT8's cooling system is a little different then the LX's. The smaller unit in the front is the power steering cooler, then the black cooling unit in the middle handles the AC and Transmission, and the silver one in the back appears to be for the engine coolant.

http://lh4.google.com/image/eric.dieterich/Rke00GgITBI/AAAAAAAAAAs/nKoH4Imsq1g/s800/Transmission%20Small%201.JPG


Do the LX models have an Aux power steering cooler like this one?

http://lh4.google.com/image/eric.dieterich/Rke02GgITDI/AAAAAAAAAA8/BDPQDUkBBbA/s800/Transmission%20Small%203.JPG


I think I am going to leave the power steering cooler alone for the time being. How is the best way to determine the flow of transmission fluid through the cooler? Can I assume it will follow the same direction as the LX models, in through the top tube out the bottome tube?

http://lh4.google.com/image/eric.dieterich/Rke01GgITCI/AAAAAAAAAA0/umy4ksBqc7Q/s800/Transmission%20Small%202.JPG


I followed the tubes back until they change to rubber hosing. This is the point I think I will tap into them for the new Trans cooler that I plan to hook up in series.

http://lh3.google.com/image/eric.dieterich/Rke022gITEI/AAAAAAAAABE/1xKbRO7PD7Q/s800/Transmission%20Small%204.JPG

If anyone can answer these questions that would be appreciated.

[MattRobertson]

Actually that looks a lot like the standard-issue SRT setup. Hemi31 would know for sure. I was under the impression the SRT p/s cooler fed from one side to the other like the 5.7 does as well.

SRT's get the beefed-up p/s cooler (which can *still* blow). The condenser/tranny cooler looks exactly the same except... the leads are on the other side. You didn't reverse those pics, did you? Anyway the tranny cooler is the top 9 rows and you can tell it by the thicker crossrows.

And the white radiator is the same deal: Its the 'severe duty' unit also found on the 5.7 with the tow package and the police system.

FnkyChkn may know if the jeep's cooler follows the norm all the others do.

Something to throw out there... I have thought about maybe hooking up the cooler in series myself... and doing it with the auxiliary cooler being FIRST in the series, rather than second. I get so much benefit from the stacked plate cooler pulling heat off the radiator that I have a significant cooling overcapacity. After two hard track days I have yet to see water temps go past 210 when on the track.

Its clear that the ventilation between the tranny cooler and the radiator allows the heat that the front cooler must be throwing off to significantly dissipate. By putting the stocker second in line, I'd be taking advantage of that and transferring the least amount of heat back into the fluid cooling system as possible.

Just a thought if you want to go in series. I have seen 265-degree tranny temps under *uber-extreme* circumstances and I can see me hooking the stocker back up if the car is already at the shop and torn up for other stuff. Maybe transfer some of that overcapacity to the tranny.

[sunnysrt8]

Thanks for the insight. I was actually thinking of hooking the aux transmission cooler in series with it being first in line. I figured let the aux transmission cooler take most of the heat out of the fluid before sending it back into the existing system. Does anyone see anything negative to this?

[glhs837]

I was under the impression the SRT p/s cooler fed from one side to the other like the 5.7 does as well.

SRT's get the beefed-up p/s cooler (which can *still* blow).


It does Matt, LX SRT is in on the drivers side, out towards the passenger side. Three rows, not four like this one, the police and all other Hemis get a single row unit. I assume due to the more cramped engine bay, the GC unit has more heat to shed, hence the extra row.

[antek]

Are the shopping lists for all the cooler setups 100% complete or is there a 'nasty' surprise waiting somewhere for me? ;)

I've got the whole list in my shopping basket at Summit Racing and I am about to hit the check-out button. :rock:

- Antek

[MattRobertson]

Are the shopping lists for all the cooler setups 100% complete or is there a 'nasty' surprise waiting somewhere for me? ;)

Sorry for the delay in response... just saw this.

They should be complete. I guess if not you'll tell me all about it. :-)

[MattRobertson]

Antek,

I went over the original posts and there are some small items which would be trivial for a shop doing the work, but in the interests of being complete: Things like nuts and bolts needed to secure the coolers to the bumper -- and the aluminum strapping that is bolted to the bumper -- are not on the parts lists. It was expected that any speed shop who is doing this install would have those lying around. Same goes for the thin alloy straps that were welded onto the p/s cooler to enable the top mounting. Not on the parts list.

If you have to buy it, billet alloy strips in various widths and thicknesses are available at a hardware store. I got mine at Lowe's (see Post #5). I STRONGLY recommend you use the 2nd Generation mounting that uses allthread and is described there.

[sunnysrt8]

So I finally got around to installing a transmission cooler on my GCSRT8 this past weekend. I would like thank everyone for the help they provided. Here are some pics of the install and the bracket I created. I decided to hook up the cooler in series but running the hot fluid through the aux cooler first. I have noticed a decrease in overall engine coolant temp by a few degrees in normal driving conditions so far this week.

http://lh6.google.com/image/eric.dieterich/RmTZdkUbxbI/AAAAAAAAACo/NPKbU5ckDCQ/s400/CIMG0974.JPG


http://lh4.google.com/image/eric.dieterich/RmTZjEUbxdI/AAAAAAAAAC4/vnoEIOcSR4k/s400/CIMG0976.JPG


http://lh6.google.com/image/eric.dieterich/RmTZlkUbxeI/AAAAAAAAADA/aGYPx1eekC4/s400/CIMG0977.JPG

http://lh5.google.com/image/eric.dieterich/RmTZrUUbxgI/AAAAAAAAADQ/aHM5wCFUFQ8/s400/CIMG0979.JPG


http://lh6.google.com/image/eric.dieterich/RmTZ8kUbxoI/AAAAAAAAAEQ/zr5Eix-YNlg/s400/CIMG0987.JPG


http://lh5.google.com/image/eric.dieterich/RmTaEUUbxrI/AAAAAAAAAEo/-I7aAJPbkJ8/s400/CIMG0990.JPG

http://lh5.google.com/image/eric.dieterich/RmTaHUUbxsI/AAAAAAAAAEw/G7bMDdbpdvY/s400/CIMG0991.JPG

[InferAl]

You should brace up the bottom a little those little tabs are really not made for mounting. Did you see in some of the earlier pics in this thread the brackets kinda sandwich the cooler together

[HEMIDON]

OMG !!! This stuff is sweet !!!

Trans and oil cooler are defiantly on my mod list now.

[MattRobertson]

Nice install! Thanks for adding to this growing little knowledge base.I decided to hook up the cooler in series but running the hot fluid through the aux cooler first. I have noticed a decrease in overall engine coolant temp by a few degrees in normal driving conditions so far this week.
That makes sense. I've thought of doing the same thing. My stock tranny cooler presently sits unused and my engine temps are WAY down. I've been wondering how much the motor would heat up if I put them in series in the order you describe, which keeps as much heat out of the radiator as possible.

Got any firm temps? An MSD DashHawk will give you precise tranny temps.

http://lh6.google.com/image/eric.dieterich/RmTZlkUbxeI/AAAAAAAAADA/aGYPx1eekC4/s400/CIMG0977.JPG
Dang thats a lot of room below the bumper. I'm envious.

InferAl has a point. The single strap that was in the original mounting was felt to be acceptable because the strapping secured one side while the tied down hoses provided rigidity to the other side. You've only got straps on the one side and I would expect a good deal more flex to that mounting, which will weaken the unit over time. After speaking to the folks at Earl's about this (after InferAl pointed me to the problem) I went with the allthread addition, which is dirt cheap yet phenomenally strong. As described it basically gives the same level of strength as the Earls mounting bracket for a fraction of the cost. I have to say though that the original mounting method was probably strong enough. A lot of speed shops have been doing it that way with no bad results... but I wanted dead certainty so I reworked the mount.

On a slightly different subject, a few days ago I was talking with another member who is going for a 3-cooler setup himself. I told him my ultimate cooling system for an LX would be:

1. The Severe Duty radiator. We see that on the police models, 5.7's with the towing package and SRT's.

2. The Mopar oil cooler, which hooks into the severe duty radiator.

3. The Frankencooler 3-cooler system hooked up as described above, with both tranny coolers hooked up in series so the aux unit is first in line and the stocker is second.

*that* would be the most capable cooling system we could come up with, unless we start bolting stuff into even more weird places.

[obiwan]

Are the shopping lists for all the cooler setups 100% complete or is there a 'nasty' surprise waiting somewhere for me? ;)

I've got the whole list in my shopping basket at Summit Racing and I am about to hit the check-out button. :rock:

- Antek
Some of the things on the list are on back order until mid June. I'm waiting on some fittings and bracket. I think the list is complete, except as Matt mentioned the metal for the brackets. I need to make a trip to Lowes and see if they have those billets of aluminum he mentioned.

[MattRobertson]

They are literally in the same rack as the allthread, on the same aisle. You should have no problem finding 'em.

[obiwan]

Matt - you need to add two more fittings to the list if you use Meisters oil kit. You need 2 each of AER-FBM1014 hose fittings to attach to the 90 degree fittings on the oil sandwich plate. I received what I thought was the last of my order today and started piecing things together in a dry fit and found I was short those two.

[MattRobertson]

Damn! Sorry about that, Obi. I hope it doesn't put you too far off track. Sure enough I checked my Summit project list and I left those fittings off of Meister's parts list. I added them back in and revised all of the parts lists since some parts pricing has changed. -10 AN hose sure has gone up. Summit sells its own brands of fittings and hoses now and you may be able to save a few bucks using that, but nobody has looked those parts over and reviewed them. Also made a few other notes in the install post on the 2 different types of elbows used in the oil cooler.

[obiwan]

Damn! Sorry about that, Obi. I hope it doesn't put you too far off track.

No I'm good, I'm still assembling parts and waiting on the new motor. I just wanted to get them on the list for the next guy/girl who may be in a hurry.

Kind of nice taking my time on this project.

[Redfox0099]

Any new ideas/ thoughts on any of this...about to get the coolers and hoping for any new thoughts.

[MattRobertson]

Yeah I have a whole bunch of stuff in the works, but it makes an extreme solution all the more extreme. Basically what I wrote in Post #92 of this thread is being done, specifically for track use.

1. As many know, I dug up CHR's Maximum Duty radiator which is more capable than the SRT radiator and apparently is meant for Middle-East-bound LX's.

2. I have a Mopar oil cooler which I am going to hook into the max duty radiator. This will necessitate a complete change to how the Frankencooler hooks into the oil system. I will be using a separate filter mount and thermostat and losing the sandwich adapter. This will give me extra oil cooling capacity and address the fact that we are STILL seeing some pretty hot oil temps even with the 25-row cooler in the picture.

3. Moms R/T pointed out that there is an oversized oil filter that will fit on this relocated filter mount and add about 1/2 qt to the system's oil capacity.

4. The tranny fluid, which reads up to 265 degrees on just the 19-row stacked plate cooler, will get a boost when I put the stock tranny cooler back into service in series with the Frankencooler. The Frankencooler will continue to be 1st in line and the stocker, which seals to the radiator, will be in second place.

The max duty radiator should be able to soak up all this extra heat being dumped into the water system and keep the water temps -- which currently never exceed 205 degrees on the track -- nice and low. How low? I've got a day at Laguna Seca booked on Dec 4th.

[Redfox0099]

Just ordered my Power Steering and Trans coolers, says there is a back order on the coolers so I should have it done in about a month.

[Hal'sMag]

I was going to wait to do this, but since I'll have the facia off anyway.....

I decided to use the Earls sandwich mount kit. I liked Al's pics, and it's clean.
I'll use angle instead of flat bar to mount to the bumper for the risers. I'll probably extend the risers below the bumper for a 25 row oil cooler later, (maybe).

I'm moving it to the passenger side as far as I can, to keep it away from my intake, and to dump the heat on the hot side of the Radiator.
I considered bumping it up to a 25 row for a stand alone application. My concern would be in stop and go, there would be no fan action on the tranny cooler. So in series it goes in lead.

A couple cuts from my alum. L will make L tabs to mount the P/S cooler, much like Bob's welded piece did. OR, I'll go to the bottom, as CV did.

Did anyone get an idea how much tranny fluid is needed? I plan to fill the cooler and figure about another cup for the lines.

Ditto on the P/S cooler. At least you can read the resevoir there. Just wanted an idea of how much I'll need to add.

[InferAl]

I ran mine all last year as a stand alone and it worked fine

[MattRobertson]

The way I remember it, the ps cooler adds about 1 quart to the system. Doing the tranny is a bit of a black art. There is a kb article about finding proper level.

I have to say I didn't like the Earl's mounting kit. I felt it obscured too much of the cooling elements. The allthread mounting is like two bucks in parts and is just absolutely solid once you get everything held down. If using it make sure you provide pressure UP on the outer ears rather than using the outer bolts to clamp down. Once you have that outward pressure then you clamp down.

Interesting idea on the cooler placement vis-a-vis the intake. I never measured to see if hot air is blowing in thru my open lower baffle.

[Redfox0099]

So before I go screwing up all of this do I have the right idea:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y284/redfox0099/Magnum/CIMG2334.jpg

From cooler, to braided hose, to fitting for trans hose and back on the other side?

[MattRobertson]

Check out Post #43. CV did a nice writeup that has pictures and colored arrows and the whole bit. BUT its backwards from how you should do it since he did the stock cooler first and the frankencooler second in line. In fairness to CV he put his in before we had run the really hard stress tests to confirm the order should be aux first and stock second.

The path of the cooler for absolutely max effect should be

1. Inlet from tranny goes to Frankencooler (far side?).
2. Outlet from Frankencooler goes to stock tranny cooler inlet.
3. Outlet from stock tranny cooler goes to transmission.

[Redfox0099]

Ok, gotcha Matt...but do I have the fittings looking correct? Do I need to put a clamp on the rubber hose of the trans where it meets with the barbed ended hose that mates to the stainless line?

What size hose is the power steering system and do I need more hose if I mount the cooler under the bumper instead of up where you mounted it Matt?

I am going to drain my power steering fluid out since mine is kinda burnt smelling and I got the ATF +4 from the dealership to refill it...any idea what the capicity of the PS system is (I know figure one more quart for the cooler and lines right)?

[MattRobertson]

Supposedly you can get away without clamping it. A lot of kits give out barbs but no clamps. I sure as hell would clamp it if it were me :-) You can see mine and the clamps in Post #3, in the 3rd picture. Remember I used hard stainless lines so my setup was different.

I have to say I don't remember the p/s hose size, but I am thinking 1/4". Maybe 3/8". Don't trust my memory. Check it. You do not need more hose. You basically just detach the hoses and reconnect them to the big cooler. In fact you may need to cut some of the stock hose off since the cooler is so much wider than the stocker (but that may not be true on a 6.1 setup).

Yeah the answer is one more quart than stock :D We literally didn't use any more brain power than that.

[Redfox0099]

No I think you missed my point Matt....how much fluid do I need to have on hand to refill the PS system when I drain all the burnt fluid out? I have 3 quarts, I hope it is enough.

[Hal'sMag]

I did a search but couldn't find power steering system capacity. sorry Red. Maybe an extra qt. on hand for safe measure, and return it if not needed.

A big thanks to those that put this all together.

I also found it's a pretty in demand mod at this point and was back ordered too.

Therefore, I re-engineered to a Derale 33000 GVW plate cooler, but will use the atomic cooler with fan assist, and thermostat control to lower the tranny temp to 175, prior to routing back to the stock cooler.
I then found it came with all the fittings needed.
Unlike the 25 row looked at on page one, this one does have screw on adapters, so the size could be changed to the -8AN used for the oil cooler lines.
I'm not planning on doing road racing or circuit, so added a simple tube and fin tranny cooler that adds 4X the surface cooling of the stock unit, in line after the tiny little stock tranny cooler. (after for ease of routing), and away from the stock cooler surface.

I'm shifting everything as far to the rt. side of the vehicle as I can - thats the rad inlet or hot side, and away from the intake area on our vehicles.
It may look like caca not being centered. Easy enough to move, as I'm using 1 1/2' alum angle to mount the coolers, and hope to use square C clamps to attach it to the bumper rail. I'll make some relief cuts in the angle for a sacrificial bend point, (should I hit a jackalope), which will hopefully allow the plate cooler - stabilized and protected by the angle stock, to bend up and spare the cooler.

I orders some AER brand fittings, and some Summit fittings. Quality looks good on both.

The P/S cooler appears to be -6AN, same as the tranny cooler. It appears to be the same size as a 3/8 nipple.

The knowledge in this thread has been priceless!

[MattRobertson]

No I think you missed my point Matt....how much fluid do I need to have on hand to refill the PS system when I drain all the burnt fluid out? I have 3 quarts, I hope it is enough.Hell if I know :-)

I think 3 is fine but since they're cheap buy another for the heck of it. Or make a thread and ask Fnky... there's the best idea.

[MattRobertson]

Hey Hal, can you get pics of your parts in here? I'm especially curious about the Derale. They are not a mfr and they once used Setrab coolers. Now that you have screw-on fittings I am real curious about what that cooler is.

33000 GVW... is that 25 row? I used to have all that in myhead but have forgotten.

And show us that install! The more knowledge and diversity we get in here the better.

And my own tidbit: It appears so far that the Mopar oil cooler and the sandwich adapter for the Frankencooler will stack just fine together. We may want to brace it up a bit. Stay tuned for an update if I can get both oil coolers working together cuz on the track I need the extra capacity and I know one or two other track rats out here in the summer heat wouldn't mind it either.

http://foohbar.com/magnum/dhr_motor_04.jpg

[Redfox0099]

Before I install anyone see a problem with these location choices?

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y284/redfox0099/Magnum/CIMG2342.jpg

I am assuming the small cooler in front is the Power steering and the hard lines going into the radiator assembly on the top right are the trans cooler lines...anyone know which one is the hot temp side...I was going to run that to my Aux. cooler 1st like Matt said.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y284/redfox0099/Magnum/CIMG2343.jpg

I am actually thinking of cutting the stock PS cooler off the car..it is just in the way and now if I am not going to use it.....

[Hal'sMag]

Looking back in the thread, I think CV put his heat sink on the bottom, and had sufficient line length to make the connection, but needed some chafing hose for rub points.

I'm guessing there is greater air flow up top, looking at my maggie grille. Just guessing. Air flow is more improtant to the plate cooler than the heat sink IMO.

Red, I'll fire up and put it in gear, and see which line gets hot when the bypass opens.

Matt, thats beautious! I just can't figure out what you used to sandwich the coolers. Does the Police oil cooler pipe go through both coolers to mount, or did you have to fab a longer tube?
The POC can only drop oil temp to near radiator outlet temp. I was going to just use the POC and the Max duty rad, and hope to keep it all about 185F operating temp.
Think I'll re-re-engineer and consider this.

As for the Derale cooler, this one is smaller overall at 10" by 10" core, has screw in outlets, and the 8" - 400 cfm fan adds the cooling kick.
Summit Racing part DER-13750 has a good pic from the back side.
Nice mounting brackets on the unit, which will attach to angle brackets off the bumper.
My intent was to try to keep from spiking temps in any cooling system.
I'm also targeting towing and desert heat, more than racing, which obviously would provide greater ram air to a plate cooler.

[MattRobertson]

Thats right Hal, the p/s cooler was originally spec'd to go down low and as a heat sink, it doesn't need so much air. However if down the road you want to add an oil cooler then I would mount the thing as Red has shown it; planning to eventually move the p/s cooler up top like I and Meister did.

I believe the TOP line on the tranny cooler is the hot one, but let Hal test it to be sure.

Hal as I understand it the two just screwed together, with the nipple coming off the original fitting and the oil cooler going on, then the nipple going onto that and the sandwich screwing on from there. I haven't seen any more than this pic and two others and I didn't quiz Bob on specifics when he told me yesterday we had lucked out and they came together. I will check with Bob and, if nothing else, I will get an answer Tuesday as I am going up there for a test drive.

[Redfox0099]

See here is the problem as I see it with the stock PS cooler in place on a car that comes with a stock cooler (and my fluid BTW smells REALLY Burnt)...I think I might have to cut it off...any objections?

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y284/redfox0099/Magnum/CIMG2344.jpg

This thing is a PITA to get off without messing up the AC Condensor.

HeHe, you got to love power tools :)

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y284/redfox0099/Magnum/CIMG2352.jpg

[MattRobertson]

i cut mine off. so did cv and meister

[Hal'sMag]

After a short jaunt around the neighborhood, and idleing in drive for about 5 min, BINGO, the top line going into the cooler got hot as the bypass opened. Kicked the fans on high - top line stayed hot and bottom line cool.

I only have a stinking 16" single tube and fin P/S cooler on the R/T. I'm jealous!

[Redfox0099]

So my PS fluid is done for, glad I am doing this upgrade. My pump never made a squeak but I am sure it is not supposed to look like this:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y284/redfox0099/Magnum/CIMG2351.jpg

That is not oil, it is PS fluid. On the paper towel is a drop of fresh fluid and a drop from the car...yuck and it smells REALLY bad.



http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y284/redfox0099/Magnum/CIMG2353.jpg

Ok I am getting ready in the morning to cut the Transmission line and not to bother or annoy I just want to ask again to make sure I got this right. The top line is the hot one we have gathered so if I want to run the fluid to my aux cooler 1st I need to:

1. Cut the rubber behind the hard line coming to the hot side of the trans cooler. I will connect the hot line from the transmission to the steel braided line going to my Aux cooler on the far side.

2. From the Aux cooler I will run a steel braided line back to the OEM trans cooler and connect this braided hose to the hot inlet hard line I just cut in step one?

So the fluid will come from the trans into my aux cooler, then to the OEM cooler and then back to the trans thru the uncut cooled side hard line being the bottom line coming out of the OEM trans cooler?

Yes Matt I know I have probably made this harder than it is but it is how my mind tries to work :)

[MattRobertson]

Dude just get out those tin snips and start cutting! No worries!

:D

Yes it sounds like you have the operation written down properly. Basically you are splicing into the inlet line and sticking something in between.

[Hal'sMag]

I was wondering if those hard line connections come loose and could be turned toward the front, or what kind of fitting it is. I may replace it with a 90 L to the front.
From the looks of your fluid, we all should be keeping a better eye on this.

CV's post #44 verifies what I felt. Top line is inlet to the stock cooler.

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff141/Halsmag/coolershots002.jpg

I would not recommend anyone jump up and buy one of these till we get it fit in. They're taller than the earls, and will take up every inch between the frame and top braces in a Mag. Also, the bracket mounting places it too far back if mounted off the rear of the bumper and too far forward if mounted off the front. It barely fits below the bumper, and I'll have to take a closer look at where I'm placing it. I don't like seeing it through my grille, so will try the bottom fit.
Anyway, work just claimed my next two weeks, so I'm a month off my build, but will be done before the heat sets in.

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff141/Halsmag/coolershots003.jpg

The wife likes the grille as is.
http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff141/Halsmag/coolershots004.jpg

Now lets see if the pics worked.

NOTE: After fitting it into the lower right, I'm not pleased with the outcome. The fan shroud ducts the heat directly to the condensor coil with 1/4" clearance. (Although CV's mount is close to the condensor unit, it has to be because of his grille insert. Maybe that's OK).
I again looked in the daylight, at moving it forward above the bumper - but can't stomach the visual.
After too many hours of playing with this, I'll look at exchanging this larger Derale and waiting for the back order. I think Matt got it right for a Magnum install. (Any Stock picks Matt?)

[Redfox0099]

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y284/redfox0099/Magnum/CIMG2363.jpg

...2 hours install time a cooler my A$$ :)




Video of the coolers working with a surface tempature reading to show the cooling effects:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ngttBa4BTQ8

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y284/redfox0099/Magnum/CIMG2365.jpg

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y284/redfox0099/Magnum/CIMG2367.jpg

[TTMR]

Great read guys! I have a slightly smaller ps cooler on order now, my fluid is amost as bad as Red's after only a couple of auto-x. Looks like I might be the first V6 to do this one.

[MattRobertson]

Well, I have had the new, beefed-up Frankencooler system in for a couple of weeks now.

This is as big as it can get, coolingwise. I added a Mopar oil cooler to my existing setup, it fit just great as it was originally designed to, and the Frankencooler oil sandwich adapter fit just fine on top of that. There were no clearance problems and the oil filter, despite being stacked like it is, and its still protected by a major piece of the chassis... no danger of it being struck by underbelly UFO's.

This adds the maximum possible amount of oil cooling. And since, in the past, we were still seeing real hot oil temps on the track, two oil coolers isn't as crazy as it sounds. However the Mopar cooler runs on engine water, thereby stressing that system a little more.

Next, the stock tranny cooler was put back into service to supplement the stacked-plate cooler. Again, in track use, despite the high rating of the aux cooler, tranny temps after a track session were too high. The stock cooler -- which also [-]runs on engine water[/-] dumps heat into the engine cooling system, is now the second cooler in line, which will dump the least amount of heat into the motor thru the radiator. Here again, unless you bolt another cooler onto the roof this is the maximum you can get for this subsystem.

And since I have beefed engine and transmission cooling at the expense of the engine cooling system, I beefed the radiator up. As many may have seen in the separate radiator threads, I installed the Mopar Maximum Duty (which is believed to be Middle-East spec) radiator. Anyone wanting to go this route needs to be prepared for a LOT of extra work. SVS R&D actually manufactured a custom outlet out of a chunk of billet so it could fit a US spec radiator hose. And the top inlet needed a custom hose that is actually a GM part for *something*... nobody knows what but it fit.

For anyone else -- assuming you do not have an SRT -- I would instead choose the Severe Duty II radiator. Maybe a little less capacity but you will save youself an enormous amount of grief.

As for performance... I haven't gotten it onto the track yet, but I will be running Laguna Seca again on April 7 and will report afterwards. I have done some really hard runs in the mountains lasting about 70 miles, and even running up a 10% grade at 5000 rpm's only puts water temp to 190... eventually, and it falls almost immediately once the load is off. Formerly the same run would go to 205 and stay high for much, much longer. Tranny temp only climbs - slowly - to eventually reach 175.

In normal driving, water temp lives at 180-183 and tranny temp is solid at 165.

With numbers like these, this is obviously an extreme only useful for road course driving. But if you do run the car hard, this is the way to go.


A BIG shout out to supporting vendor Jeff@MPSC. Jeff managed to hunt down and acquire the export-restricted Maximum Duty radiator. He also worked tirelessly with Hal'sMag while the two of them fought unsuccessfully to find the Mopar inlet and outlet hoses for this radiator. Jeff also supplied the Mopar oil cooler kit to me at a great price.

And speaking of shouting out, Hal'sMag put in an enomous amount of time and effort to figure the radiator situation out. Hal actually managed to find an elbow piece for the lower outlet -- that unfortunately faced in the wrong direction -- from the manufacturer. In Sweden. That elbow was the template that allowed SVS to machine the part needed to hook up the outlet hose.

Who'd a'thunk a stupid radiator would be such an incredible pain in the a$$?

http://foohbar.com/magnum/dhr_oil01.jpg

http://foohbar.com/magnum/dhr_rad01.jpg

[Hemi31]

Matt....buddy....the stock Trans cooler doesn't come in contact with engine coolant.....ever.It's in the A/C condenser.....not the radiator.

[MattRobertson]

OK I see where I said it "runs on engine water" and changed that to say it dumps heat into the engine cooling system. My bad. Not what I meant. It was late. If I had been drinking I would prolly have done a better job. Just say no to sobriety.

[TTMR]

So perhaps Homer needs to be considering beer also? If it interests anyone I'll follow my "bride of frankencooler" PS cooler install around with a camera for those people that don't want to go quite so far off the deep end.:wink: My plan is to leave the stock cooler intact and add the 12" unit in as additional insurance mounted to the top of the bumper. I'm hopeful that this will be more than sufficient for my little V6.

Question, I'd assume that the larger hose in the return to the PS reservoir?

[MattRobertson]

well, on the V8's the ps system has hoses of equal size on both ends.

??


Oh and please very much do keep us in the loop on your progress so our V6 brethren have some ground broken for them.

[TTMR]

Hmm let me go take a look at the hoses, I fairly certain that one hose on the reservoir is larger than the other, the reason I ask is I want the hot fluid to flow through the smaller cooler first, so that the lower efficiency cooler gets first crack at it while the fluid/ambient temp difference is largest. Back in a minute!

[TTMR]

Ok just looked and yes indeed one hose is larger than the other.

In our first picture the reservoir is in place and you can see the clips of the two hoses and that one is larger than the otherhttp://photos-h.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v191/104/119/512343711/n512343711_695047_2063.jpg

For clarification I took the reservoir off it's mount and took this picture
http://photos-b.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v191/104/119/512343711/n512343711_695049_2271.jpg

As you can see the bottom hose is larger than the top one. Anybody know the direction of flow here? Hot or cold tank, does the fluid flow: reservoir -> pump -> cooler -> steering?

[TTMR]

Bump for the flow direction!

[antek]

Where did all the pictures go? :(

Never mind :) connection problems to blame

[MattRobertson]

Bump for the flow direction!Sorry bud, I missed your post.

Honestly I never paid any attention to flow direction since we didn't have an issue on the V8's to consider. Not sure how to tell the answer to that. Maybe Fnkychkn knows?

As a further followup, I've done multiple track days at Laguna Seca since I last posted and indeed this is what it takes to get all of your fluid temps truly under control. Even with the increased load on the radiator, ECT never exceeds 205 which lets remember (who has a stock tstat anymore?) is basically normal base operating/idling temperature. Tranny fluid never gets past about 190-195 and you have to work hard to get it there. Oil is frankly unknown, since I don't have a gauge, but I think we can safely infer its lower than before and probably is equalizing around the water temp. Someday, MSD will bring out their Hawkeye sensors for the DashHawk and I can plumb in a temp gauge. But I'm no longer concerned with it.

[Redfox0099]

at what temp is the oil too hot for highway driving that it starts to break it down ?

What is an acceptable oil temp while driving, what should we shoot for or what temp do we see as being too hot to let us know we need an oil cooler?

[MattRobertson]

I don't think you should try to nail it down to specifics. Cooler is better. We know what is too cool, and what is too hot. And we know that more heat is not your friend.

So the upper level for engine oil: An SRT engineer told me Mobil1 was good to 310 degrees (he was implying that oil coolers are unnecessary, I think). So lets call that the kind-of safe max... Can't say I think highly of 300 degree oil but there it is.

And the lower level: As I understand it, 180 degrees is a good operating temp for oil. Pretty much all of the oil cooler thermostats out there in the world open up at 180. So you don't want to be running less than that, for sure.

How hot it gets: Meister was choosing to pit his car and let it cool when he was in the 280's and still climbing, which was IIRC when his gauge was maxed out. That was after only three laps at Willow Springs, so that will give you an idea of how fast overly hot oil can put you off the track.

I got tranny fluid to 265 degrees at both Cal Speedway and Laguna Seca with the single aux tranny cooler. Here again hotter is not good. The stock system has a 165-degree thermostat built in to its cooler so thats the lower level. You want to keep it down in that neighborhood and not up in the 260's.

Its worth knowing that SRT's typically run hot oil, probably cuz of the oil squirters the 6.1 motor has? I've heard stock numbers in the 240's for street use. They were meant to do that so even though thats hot its not out of spec; especially given the Mobil1 info above. But it sure doesn't leave much of a cushion for when you hammer it, does it?

So no straight answer, but some good known boundaries.

[Bud]

That's one hell of a writeup Matt! I think I need to read it again to fully digest it. Trojan mentioned the Police Performance Oil Cooler....what is the main difference between the one's you and Meister have, and the Police one? I'm installing all three types this year and am doing the research. That is of course if I can get John, Ralph, and Adam to "help" me with it! LOL

[Redfox0099]

My oil temp runs at 225* on the highway but I don't have any oil squirters anymore so...um yeah.

[Bud]

That's one hell of a writeup Matt! I think I need to read it again to fully digest it. Trojan mentioned the Police Performance Oil Cooler....what is the main difference between the one's you and Meister have, and the Police one? I'm installing all three types this year and am doing the research. That is of course if I can get John, Ralph, and Adam to "help" me with it! LOL

Bump

[MattRobertson]

awright awright. geez I see it already. :D

There is a preliminary thread to this one. I'm pretty sure its linked in Post #1 where I laid out a lot of background data. Somewhere in one of the threads is also relative capacities of the stacked plate oil coolers. Check that for more background. But get a sandwich first before you start reading.

In short, the POC is water-cooled and the Frankencooler is air-cooled. The POC (and the stock tranny cooler) dump heat into the engine cooling system. The Frankencoolers have the potential to do that (since they are mounted in front of the radiator) but in practice it was found there is enough venting that ECT actually goes down by quite a bit when you pull the water-cooled tanny cooler out of service and substitute in the Frankencooler version... for the Magnum. Meister's 300C front end was not sufficiently open to properly utilize the coolers under the intense use he put his car to and he went to the Xenon front fascia to solve that problem. Magnums are no problem and the same seems to be true for Chargers.

With the POC the lowest your oil temp cam be is the equivalent of the water temp. With Frankencooler there is no such limitation, but practically speaking its not going to freeze over anytime soon.

Remember there was no Mopar POC when Frankencooler was created. In fact I did it out of disgust with Mopar dragging their feet for so long on releasing the last few parts to make the kit. Meister spearheaded the POC project personally, along with Mopar Super Center. Even he got sick of the delays, and we both needed a solution in time for upcoming track events.

But that was then. Now there is a POC and I would put that in first. Then measure your oil temp and see if you need another cooler. If you are road racing I think you just might. If you do not already have an SRT, beware of thecapacity of your radiator though. The POC is going to put an unknown amount of added stress on that little thing, which is about 0.5" thick versus the 1.75" thick Maximum Duty or Severe Duty II radiators.

[Ron380]

Bumping this up because:

A- I just finished reading the whole thing myself, and

B- I just sent this link to someone who is having cooling problems in their SRT8! :mrgreen:

:wink: While I'm at it, I'd like to extend a HUGE THANK YOU!!! to all the guys who worked so hard on this and posted up all this terrific info. for the rest of us!! Amazing Job Guys!!

[Hal'sMag]

I spent a few extra bucks on a Derale 33000GVW tranny cooler, that also has a fan. It's a well made plate cooler, without the deficiencies of the ones first looked at. The fan is switched by a adjustable temp probe/relay, left over from my first fan mod. (Pep Boys universal, adjustable temp fan switch with 30 amp relay and thin fin probe).

This allows me to set my trans cooler fan to a temp low enough to keep from sending heat back to the stock trans cooler, as they will run in series.

This cooler is 3 rows taller than the Earls, and I didn't take into account the added height of the L fittings, and almost ran out of room.
I had intended to also use a Earls plate cooler for oil, but then the POC came out.

So on the remaining rack space, I installed a tube and fin cheapo cooler (Summit), to increase my P/S cooling 6 fold, running in series after the stock. Looking at the back picture, thats vacuum hose split and glued onto the L to avoid metal to metal contact. I can always plumb in the huge heat sink cooler later if needed. A couple scap pieces of the alum L will bolt it up like Matts is, without the need of a weld.

I used 1 1/2" alum angle stock to mount the coolers to.
6" x 3 1/2" square U bolts to go around the bumper, and hold the L stock against it (foam has to be notched out for the U bolts, and some more for a bit more air flow.

All this fitment was done on a stock R/T.

Then Matt shows up at Spring fest with his Saudi Max Duty Rad installed, and I realized this moves the condenser and tranny cooler forward more than an inch. Keep that in mind if you're fabbing a mounting bracket, and adding the Severe Duty II radiator.

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff141/Halsmag/coolerrack1.jpg


Front and back.

http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff141/Halsmag/coolerrear2.jpg


And yes it will be highly visible through the grill. I tried to avoid that. You can if you use a 6 row plate mounted on the bottom of the bumper rail. Get the bigun.

Note: The Derale, from Summit, had a nice mounting bracket on it that was flush with the front of the cooler. I had to cut that off and shift the cooler in front of the L brackets 2" to make room for the fan hanging off the back. It will sit on top of the bumper, with the tube and fin 1/2' below the bumper.

[AlbertaAMX]

Will it be possible to use a Radiator from an 09 SRT Challenger with a Manual Transmission to gain cooling capacity above the Severe Duty II without going through the hassles of the maximum duty? Would this give an increase in surface area or is the stock Transmission cooler just a tube ran through a tank? Just a thought.

[Ron380]

This is just a SWAG, but I would suspect the Challenger radiator IS the Severe Duty II...? Most automakers try not to make extra parts if they don't have to...

Can anyone with a new Chally get a part # for their radiator?





(SWAG= Scientific Wild-Arse Guess) :wink:

[MattRobertson]

Hal that looks great! Interesting on the Derale plate-and-fin unit. I would LOVE to find out a way to convert GVW readings to BTU/hr to be able to do an apples-to-apples capacity comparo.

Looks like you got their Atomic Cool (http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=DER-13750&N=700+4294854215+115&autoview=sku) unit? Pricey little bugger. But a fan-fed unit sounds like the smart ticket for 300 owners since we saw from Meister's experience that airflow is not what it is for the Magnum or Charger.

That PS cooler should be a big help over stock, and at $35 yeah they sure are inexpensive! Probably a better option than a heat sink if you are not doing a front oil cooler. You must have had fun with the hose routing both on the same side like that :D. Any idea what its capacity is?

Will it be possible to use a Radiator from an 09 SRT Challenger with a Manual Transmission to gain cooling capacity above the Severe Duty II without going through the hassles of the maximum duty?
Nobody knows who isn't in Brampton I would think. Interesting question. I will take a guess: Chrysler would not make a car that shares so many internal parts (almost all of them) and make that one different. If I were to guess, its a standard-issue Severe Duty II. Remember the video of the one on Willow Springs that had to be retired for the day because it was almost overheated? That suggests no increase in capacity.

[Hal'sMag]

Matt, The hose routing to the P/S cooler is great where it is. It came with hoses and clamps. I connect the inlet hose to the bottom fitting and fill with a squeeze type ketchup dispenser from Smart and Final, the the other end attachés to the stock tube/fin outlet (the tiny R/T one).

A earplug into the original return hose to stop leakage, and an easy routing from the top fitting back to the return, will hardly a teaspoon of mess.

I don't have the tranny cooler plumbed in yet, but decided to put the fascia back on for now. With 2 people it goes pretty easy.

I'm not doing much driving right now, but will shuffle it over to the shop for the Rad install September.

Fortunately it's been a cool summer so far.

[AlbertaAMX]

Depending on volume it may be cheaper to manufacture a radiator without an auxiliary cooler in it. Plus plugs in your rad wood look ghetto. Once the MANUAL tranny challengers come out we will know I guess.

[MattRobertson]

I think I see where you were going with this, AlbertaAMX. You were thinking the radiator itself had a tranny cooler built in? It doesn't. The a/c condenser and tranny cooler are attached one on top of the other and they in turn sandwich to the full face of the radiator. They are a separate part. You wouldn't know it just to look at the thing in the car and assembled but start taking stuff apart and you see they are sandwiched together as one, but are separate parts.

[fargo59]

two part numbers are listed for the 09 SRT challenger.
68050131AA severe duty II
68050126AA heavy duty

bet these line up with the LX parts. i entered it in as an 09 LC with 6.1 and tremec.

[MattRobertson]

SRT's up to now only had one radiator I believe and that was Severe II. Should be interesting to see what this is all about. I wonder if the 'heavy duty' is for the drag pack car?

[MattRobertson]

Well crap. Having a 'heavy duty' rad come up in an SRT parts spec is not so unusual. Check this out:

I have never seen a 'heavy duty' radiator in a parts list but then again I have never searched on a 2007 Charger SRT before.

This is not an in-house dealer parts list but it is an online dealer system a lot of dealer sites use.

so 'heavy duty' is available and its a lot cheaper than the beefed up ones. Not a good sign if we are looking for something big.

http://foohbar.com/magnum/radparts.gif

[fargo59]

yeah, my car has the heavy duty. its the standard for the road and track pack, i believe.

[Hal'sMag]

I have EVIC, and with the POC and Max duty Rad.
Spirited driving, I'm still pushing 195-198 with 4127 thermo.
Oil temps will get to 225 at the same time.

So the POC isn't cooling as much as I thought it would.
I may sandwich an oil cooler in place of the P/S cooler, probably a less expensive large tube and fin -10AN, and use the Frankencooler P/S heat sink. Instead of welding on a plate as Matt did, left over 2" pieces of the alum. angle will bolt right up to the cooler, then to the upper rail as Matt did.

1/4 runs are not long enough to bring either temp up much with both fans on high with coolit mod.

I haven't had the tune dialed in, and won't see extreme conditions until next summer. This install included a cam and heads and headers and high flows, so It's apples and oranges to what I ran stock.

The Derale cooler works great. I don't have a tranny temp gage, but can tell the temp by the fan cycling on and off. (I added a fully adjustable temp probe and relay from Pep Boys- my cooling mod prior to coolit). I think I'll hook up some indicator lights just for the fun of it and would like to know when low fan, high fan, and tranny cooler fan are on.

The pictures on post 140 show how easy it was to mount solid using 6" square U clamp to the alum. angle. The OOPS was the angle brackets should have been flipped 180, so the bolts on the angle brackets are on the outside of the rail. That will save 10 min. of frustration getting to them to tighten it down

Regarding directional flow of the P/S fluid, the cooler is the last piece in line to the reservoir on the 5.7.

[Immo]

Nice Mod!!!!!!!

[Mathnerd]

Just something to keep in mind, your engine oil needs to get to at least 212 (at sea level anyway) to ensure any moisture is allowed to boil off. Too cool can be detrimental just like too hot.

[MattRobertson]

Thats not a problem with our motors, unfortunately. They run hot on the oil. The SRTs with their oil squirters are even worse, with oil temps reported in the 260's on the street. Stock. One more reason why Mobil1 is specified.

After what is now more than two years with these coolers in place first on my 5.7 RT and now my stroker, there's never been a hint of any sort of oil contamination.

[Hemissary]

Umm, not true; condensate begins to reduce (dissipate - evaporate) at temperature which is above ambient plus relative humidity (it's dew point)...

Just something to keep in mind, your engine oil needs to get to at least 212 (at sea level anyway) to ensure any moisture is allowed to boil off. Too cool can be detrimental just like too hot.

[ET1970]

Matt,

I have put together most most of the thing that you have in this thread for a franken cooler. I have the 300 srt and still have some cooling problems with the oil (go figure) although the water cooling is doing much better. I'm currently changing the bumper cover to the later 2006 cover that has extra opening for cooling. next i'm looking for the mopar cooler that uses the water that you have pictured on your motor. Where can i get this item and what would the expected pricing be? thanks for your help.

I have made a few changes and once i get it complete I will post it for other the get the next step of ideas.

[xevilpetex]

I posted this in another thread but here is an alternative mounting set up for the coolers (on a magnum at least)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/xevilpetex/Pt2oil.jpg

The trans cooler will be going on the top of the bumper on the right when i get around to it.

[MattRobertson]

ET1970:
Talk to Supporting Vendor Jeff at AllUSA Motorsports. He was part of the team that developed the kit. Formerly they worked at MoparSuperCenter and I know that company (also a Supporting Vendor here) still has it on their web site for around $125.

xevilpetex:
What you did was actually the original mounting plan for the system. When Bob got the first car up on the lift (it was actually Meister and not I... Jim was in on my development while it was going on and due to a scheduling issue he got his done before I did) he decided he wasn't comfortable taking so much direct airflow away from the radiator. If you could, keep your eyes open as to your water temps and get back to us all on how this works out for you. I'm real curious myself.

Also ... did you use allthread on that mount to keep the tension off the ears? Looks like it. Some closeups of that would be cool.

[xevilpetex]

xevilpetex:
What you did was actually the original mounting plan for the system. When Bob got the first car up on the lift (it was actually Meister and not I... Jim was in on my development while it was going on and due to a scheduling issue he got his done before I did) he decided he wasn't comfortable taking so much direct airflow away from the radiator. If you could, keep your eyes open as to your water temps and get back to us all on how this works out for you. I'm real curious myself.

Also ... did you use allthread on that mount to keep the tension off the ears? Looks like it. Some closeups of that would be cool.

I did use fully threaded bar stock for the mount.

I will let you know after i put the trans cooler in, but as it currently stands all the temps were fine during my last track day. Granted im not expecting to be running at the desert tracks that you run at so i may be able to get away with a bit less airflow.

I also think that if i was doing it again, i might cut more of the baffling away to mount the cooler farther to the side.

[Hemissary]

I'm really interested in your coolant temps as well, if when you jot down that info could you also make note of the ambient temp as well...

[MattRobertson]

Hemissary, one thing that might make this all work out for xevilpetex is something I found after the coolers went in: That we have TONS of air circulation between the coolers and the radiator thanks to the lower grille opening on a Magnum (or a 300 with one of those magical Xenon fascias like Meister and Fatchance have). The fact that I could put two coolers in front of the rad and my water temps went *down* (due to the removal of the stock tranny cooler from the mix) told me that air was still flowing in there and somehow exhausting the heat we knew had to be coming out the back of those coolers.

[xevilpetex]

So far so good. I mounted the trans cooler about 2 weeks ago and finally got it plumbed on wednesday. The radiator temp hasnt been effected during regular street driving. Hopefully I'll get to a track soon to see how things work out under hard driving conditions.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/xevilpetex/Cooling010.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/xevilpetex/Cooling030.jpg
I think this shots shows how much room there still is around the coolers for air to get to the radiator. Also something to note, my aux coolers are a fair bit farther forward then Matts. Mine are right up against the bumper while his are spaced back closer to the radiator. I would think this added space would allow the airflow to be directed behind the coolers by the angled baffling on the sides of the grille.

[lukester]

as I'm having big big trouble with my oil and water temps on the track, too I need to get things done as soon as possible.
here's a summary of technical issues I had while being on the track: http://www.challengertalk.com/forums/f18/oil-cooler-bigger-water-cooler-stock-stuff-cannot-handle-22883/#post320495


driving an 09 SRT8 6speed which has the new thread size on the oil filter. old (2005 till end 2007) was 3/4-16 and the new size is 22x1.5mm

do you think this sandwich plate will fit?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MOR-23699/?image=large

or shoud I better get this one?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TRD-1327/

Another thing what I've found - but I'm not sure if it's worth the bucks:
http://www.stackperformance.com/store/products/Stack_Performance_Radiator-63-25.html


Guys - this thread is one of the bests I've found so far and I'll share everything I'll do about the cooling improvements on my Challenger to keep this as detailed as possible.

[LIL WAGON]

posting to subscribe and find this at a l8r date

[MattRobertson]

do you think this sandwich plate will fit?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MOR-23699/?image=large

or shoud I better get this one?
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TRD-1327/


Well, I don't know anything about the Moroso... thats a fairly new part. But the second one you linked is ... the same one I spec'd... with someone else's brand on it, and five bucks cheaper. This is not exactly a big shock. I talked with Derale directly way back when I started this thread and this project, and they were up-front about the fact that their products are puchased from OEM manufacturers and branded with their name, so no surprises here. I will say that my Derale unit has proven to be well-functional since installation and has given me no problems.

The same can not be said for the expensive Earl's Plumbing billet sandwich adapter, which Meister had to get rid of. I'll let him tell the rest of that story himself if he's so inclined, but bottom line: the cheaper unit seems to be the better one.

Another thing what I've found - but I'm not sure if it's worth the bucks:
http://www.stackperformance.com/store/products/Stack_Performance_Radiator-63-25.html
Interesting. I'm not sure its worth the bucks either. $800 for a radiator. Spank me red. I would suggest doing all of the other things and installing fluid temp gauges if you haven't already. If you're still running hot water, fine go for it. I did a Mopar Maximum Duty radiator but that thing was a nightmare. Its worth doing the Stacked rad versus the way I went as most everyone is not going to be in the position I was to have a guy like Bob@SVS custom make billet fittings for that stupid thing.

One thing to watch out for is space. My rad was much thicker than stock and it wound up being a lot closer to the coolers. If you go big on the rad watch out for this. It worked out for me but not because I planned it that way.



Guys - this thread is one of the bests I've found so far and I'll share everything I'll do about the cooling improvements on my Challenger to keep this as detailed as possible.

[lukester]

thread found - went through it - spent some hours reading here and there - placed the order. "quick'n'dirty" :banana:

http://www.lukecustoms.de/Challenger/coolingorder.jpg


@MattRobertson: A big big thank you from my side for posting all your infos here and on your website http://lelandwest.com/auto-tech/

I really enjoyed reading.
here's a little what I can share (copy and paste it as I don't wanna blow up this thread):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fJc1rRImIkw
and
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIOx3QbPnu0


:rock:

[DMAG]

Matt...why is this not in the KB?!?!?!?! Move/copy it there dude!

[Ron380]

But if you move it... I won't be able to find it again! :panic:


:mrgreen:

[RobAGD]

there is a KB ?

Why wasn't I told about that ?!?!? lol

-Robert

[xevilpetex]

Well, I don't know anything about the Moroso... that's a fairly new part. But the second one you linked is ... the same one I spec'd... with someone else's brand on it, and five bucks cheaper. This is not exactly a big shock. I talked with Derale directly way back when I started this thread and this project, and they were up-front about the fact that their products are purchased from OEM manufacturers and branded with their name, so no surprises here. I will say that my Derale unit has proven to be well-functional since installation and has given me no problems.


I think they were able to drop the price since it looks like they are only shipping that one with 1 thread adapter instead of the 6 different ones that make the Derale one universal.

Also Lukester a word of warning. Make sure you get a 3/8" NPT tap so you can tap the sandwich plate to the correct depth for the AN fittings. If you just keep tightening the AN fittings without tapping it deep enough you will crack the sandwich plate
If you do this you will feel like a real jackass (i know i did) :blam:

Matt do you have any more insight on the Trans cooler install? I ended up having a forum vendor do the install because it was the one part of this setup there weren't many pictures on where to install the fittings. I wish i had been able to do it on my own like i did the other to parts. I felt a bit bent over afterwards.

[MattRobertson]

Matt...why is this not in the KB?!?!?!?! Move/copy it there dude!
I thought it was already in there.

http://foohbar.com/ul/doh_60.gif

Lukester: My pleasure. I've got another bit of advice for you: I notice you bought two of the K&N Performance Gold oil filters... well next time buy The K&N HP 3001. Its more than double the size, but even if you stack on the Mopar oil cooler and the sandwich adapter you have, the bigger oil filter will still be protected behind the crossmember. Adds maybe another 1/2 quart of capacity. If I take lots of time to let the oil drain (I don't) I get 8 qts in and am just over the top of the safe line. If I just do the usual drain-and-wait-5-and-refill I get 7 in.

Other filters that match this size are

-Napa 1515
-Mobil1 MI-301
-Bosch 3500
-Fram PH8A (yeccch)

I am sticking to the K&N because I have been running them since I put the motor in and it hasn't blown up yet. I know the Napa's are good but I ain't changing anything. Also I change my oil before every track day, despite all the above cooling precautions. Figure it in as cost of track along with tires and brake pads.

[MattRobertson]

Also Lukster a word of warning. Make sure you get a 3/8" NPT tap so you can tap the sandwich plate to the correct depth for the AN fittings. If you just keep tightening the AN fittings without tapping it deep enough you will crack the sandwich plate Good point. Buried in the original posts about two years back I mention that we had to tap the threads extra deep so the elbows would fit in behind the crossmember.

Matt do you have any more insight on the Trans cooler install? I ended up having a forum vendor do the install because it was the one part of this setup there werent many pictures on where to install the fittings. I wish i had been able to do it on my own like i did the other to parts. I felt a bit bent over afterwards.Well, CoolVanilla did a better job of picturing this than I did, including arrows showing the flow of fluid between the coolers. Its somewhere in this thread. It'd be fairly simple I think EXCEPT for plumbing it back into the original trans cooler. I don't know what Bob used to go back in and its been too long since I've looked for me to remember here at my keyboard. Remember my first install was a standalone and I didn't put them in series until I had some track time in and realized I was leaving something I needed on the table, so to speak.

[fargo59]

just a heads up, the 08+ filter's threaded adaptor has a hex drive in the center of it. im wondering if the block is still 3/4" thread behind it. if it is, you can convert your car to the older system for very little cost.

[xevilpetex]

Lukester, I think one of the other places you are hurting on is airflow. The Challenger has the smallest openings on the front of the car for air to get to your radiator. Some of the 300SRT guys have had more difficulty with cooling and airflow with their stock front fascia. To solve their problems they had to get aftermarket fascias with larger openings like the Grip fronts. As you can see by the pictures in my earlier post you can see how much open grille that the MSRT8 is blessed with. I'm not sure how you could deal with this issue easily. Short of hacking up your car by installing NACA ducting and vents you may be out of luck.

[xevilpetex]

So I had the car out on the track yesterday.
The air temp was about 91f with the on track temps a bit higher. There were only 2 run groups so it was 30 minutes on track, 30 minutes off track through the entire day. I got about 3 hours of track time (i could have had more but didn't want to make another run to the gas station). I had no issues with overheating. Water temps never went above 215 and were around 200 for much of the day. The oil cooler was hot to the touch but the trans cooler was only warm after each run. I could hold my hand on the return line with no major discomfort.

I also had no power steering issues and even my EBC yellows exhibited no brake fade or degradation throughout the day. There was some brake judder from pad deposits during the first run of the day but by the end of that stint the shuddering under hard braking had subsided and was minimal throughout the rest of the day.
It looks like I'm going to have to get a fresh set of rotors as they are starting to get some significant grooving across the surface. Though 25,000 miles and a handful of track days is more then i would expect a set of rotors to endure.

All in all it was a great day at the track and I impressed my instructor and some other drivers with the speed such a big car could hustle around the track. Now I need to buy some track pads, fresh rotors, and some R-comp tires so i can really put the hurt on my run group. :thumbs_u:

[Ron380]

Glad to hear it Pete! :thumbs_u: :mrgreen:

[MattRobertson]

Ditto Pete!

I hit Thunder Hill again on Friday. Conditions were in the upper 90's and I was running in an uncrowded advanced group so speeds were very high. Much faster than my present lap record; probably by several seconds as now I am running one gear higher in most places on the track than I was when I got that football.

On the last session of the day I was playing tag with a new C63 AMG driven by a guy who knows how, and hammering it especially hard as a result. For the first time ever, saw 250 degrees on the water temp. However it was in the 240's on the track. It climbed to 250 as I was pulling in at the end of the session... the lack of airflow at speed let the motor heat up. But only just a bit. You could look at the gauge and watch the temperature literally plunge as the motor ceased generating the enormous heat it had been pumping out on the track.

At that same time, transmission temps were about 200-215, which are high for me and peanuts for the tranny. In earlier sessions where I was staying in 3rd rather than dipping into the 2nd gear power band for max corner exit speeds, I was seeing transmission temps in the 180's and 170's.

So once again, dual transmission coolers mounted in series prove to be the shiznit, this time under some pretty nasty circumstances.

And dammit I seem to have found the upper limit on the water capacity. I was at a 95-degree day on Buttonwillow last summer and got into the low 240's IIRC. If the track sessions had been longer than the standard-issue 20 minutes I might have needed to pit, although 250 is not the end of the world.

I know Stack Performance is selling a great big radiator, much bigger than anything we all are using - even me with my Middle-East spec unit... but its $800 and that is just plain ugly.

I did so well on Friday I nixed my September Laguna date in favor of running Thunder Hill again -- next time I will bring timing gear. That particular vendor does 25-minute sessions and it may still be hot. We'll see. Fact is, I'm not sure that beefing up the rad is worth it for the tail end of a session when I only rarely run into that kind of heat.

[NYC_SRT8]

Where can I get the power steering cooler? Summit have it but I have to wait till the middle of September for it to ship. A few days ago I had my power steering pump replace and want this installed ASAP.

[MattRobertson]

Dig all the way back into the beginning of this thread and that issue is discussed... Derale ships these things in batches. You might try going direct to Derale but they couldn't even help me, Mr. Bigshot who was writing them up in a big internet forum. Its all explained. I'm thinking you are going to have to wait unless they can find you a distributor with stock on hand.

[NYC_SRT8]

I found a replacement for the Derale power steering cooler.

http://www.cfrperformance.com/24_FINNED_ALUMINUM_TRANSMISSION_COOLER_p/hz-0053.htm

What do you guys think about it?

[NYC_SRT8]

I ordered the finned cooler from my previous post. It should be delivered by friday.

Pete, are you free this weekend????:modding:

[jsjahonda(big BK]

ok, what cooler is this for.

[NYC_SRT8]

:bahdumcha:

[NYC_SRT8]

I found a replacement for the Derale power steering cooler.

http://www.cfrperformance.com/24_FINNED_ALUMINUM_TRANSMISSION_COOLER_p/hz-0053.htm

What do you guys think about it?

ok, what cooler is this for.

Like McGruff the crime dog said "reading is fundamental" :)

[MattRobertson]

Interesting looking cooler. Derale doesn't make anything... only brands stuff it buys from un-named suppliers. Take some pics in closeup if you can and post 'em up. That looks pretty nicely made.

EDIT: Damn. They have a 30" version (http://www.cfrperformance.com/30_FINNED_ALUMINUM_TRANSMISSION_COOLER_p/hz-0054.htm). I wonder if that'll fit. If it were me I'd go bigger if you can.

[xevilpetex]

Interesting looking cooler. Derale doesn't make anything... only brands stuff it buys from un-named suppliers. Take some pics in closeup if you can and post 'em up. That looks pretty nicely made.

EDIT: Damn. They have a 30" version (http://www.cfrperformance.com/30_FINNED_ALUMINUM_TRANSMISSION_COOLER_p/hz-0054.htm). I wonder if that'll fit. If it were me I'd go bigger if you can.

I wouldnt, the 24" looks to have been proven to be enough. A number of people have run their cars hard in hot weather with no issues with it, he also has an underdrive pulley which should further reduce the strain on his PS pump.

I think another 6" would make it a pretty tight fit anyway

[jsjahonda(big BK]

Like McGruff the crime dog said "reading is fundamental" :)

I saw it after , thanks:doh:

[MattRobertson]

For a street guy... absolutely no need for 30" for sure. For the track I have actually approached the outside limit with the big 24" cooler on.

It was on Thunder Hill where from Turn 3 onward its one long series of hard right-left-right-left-right-left (I think I got them all) at high rpm's until you hit an easier stretch. Most of it has to be in second gear. That means high rpm's and there's where you are at risk. The steering stiffened up noticeably and I know the lyrics to that song. Luckily I was able to keep it together cuz I wasn't going to back off. It was also a hot day so its a combination of things that makes it happen... but it *can* happen. Willow Springs or particularly Buttonwillow in the summer would also be a place I'd worry about given the heat there and the track layout.

If you could fit 30" in counting the barbs and hoses (mebbe a 90-degree barb would help) you'd have to use the next set of supports out to bolt it up. That would make for some fun welding to make that work. On the other hand, if you are mounting low like in the original config... probably no issues.

[TTMR]

Better yet Matt, just mount a second 24" in there.

[MattRobertson]

Now THAT would be crazy :-)

[TTMR]

Ok, then a 12" probably cheaper than trying to cram that 30" in there, more cooler too...

[xevilpetex]

For a street guy... absolutely no need for 30" for sure. For the track I have actually approached the outside limit with the big 24" cooler on.

It was on Thunder Hill where from Turn 3 onward its one long series of hard right-left-right-left-right-left (I think I got them all) at high rpm's until you hit an easier stretch. Most of it has to be in second gear. That means high rpm's and there's where you are at risk. The steering stiffened up noticeably and I know the lyrics to that song. Luckily I was able to keep it together cuz I wasn't going to back off. It was also a hot day so its a combination of things that makes it happen... but it *can* happen. Willow Springs or particularly Buttonwillow in the summer would also be a place I'd worry about given the heat there and the track layout.

If you could fit 30" in counting the barbs and hoses (mebbe a 90-degree barb would help) you'd have to use the next set of supports out to bolt it up. That would make for some fun welding to make that work. On the other hand, if you are mounting low like in the original config... probably no issues.


Have you considered maybe putting a slightly larger pulley on the ps pump? Clearly we are not stressing the pump from the steering inputs, its mostly the RPM's under load. If you just reduce the rpm of the pump itself it wont overheat the fluid and cause these issues.

That is my plan B that i discussed with Hemituner after he installed my trans cooler.

[MattRobertson]

I dunno... If you look at how xevilpetex did his, I think the extra size would be a non-issue. He did it the original-spec way. The coolers are further forward making radiator clearance a non-issue. Both tranny and oil are up top so you can mount the ps cooler down low and there's a ton of room down there. His temp readings seem to say our original concern about airflow isn't a problem, and subsequent experience of my own with the coolers not dumping heat into the rad seem to tie in with his findings about general airflow rolling in from the bottom and sides.

The only long term worry I would have about that config is solidity of mounting. Thats something the Earl's Plumbing people were really concerned about, and this caused me to do the allthread mod to the install that wound up being so solid and successful. If you did the same thing I did with allthread - you could if you drill thru the bumper top to bottom and run the allthread all the way down and bolt it from the bottom - you would have a REALLY solid mount that provides support to the ears and keeps them from bending and potentially breaking the cooler. Note that Meister had to redo his very recently due to leakage and he did the allthread mount.

You would then have room for more radiator. I've talked to Stack Performance about theirs and they had a concern regarding clearance with my mounting. I've also talked to Ron Davis Radiators about a custom job (it'd be cheaper than the Stack and maybe have more capacity) and doing it thataway would eliminate any clearance issues they might have too.

It would not be a cheap refit. I'd have to really want to do it. But for someone going from scratch, I think if you do it like xevilpetex did, you could do the 30" ps cooler with no issues. You could do the allthread mounting method (and yes it would cost more but be totally solid... and still cheaper than buying the mfr-recommended mountings), and you would have room for whatever beefed-up radiator you decide to lay your hands on.

[MattRobertson]

Have you considered maybe putting a slightly larger pulley on the ps pump? Clearly we are not stressing the pump from the steering inputs, its mostly the RPM's under load. If you just reduce the rpm of the pump itself it wont overheat the fluid and cause these issues.
No thats a new idea as far as I know. I'll talk it over with Cam probably later today and see what he thinks. That may be on my short list as Thunder Hill and a revised football is on my radar for September 11.

[NYC_SRT8]

Interesting looking cooler. Derale doesn't make anything... only brands stuff it buys from un-named suppliers. Take some pics in closeup if you can and post 'em up. That looks pretty nicely made.

EDIT: Damn. They have a 30" version (http://www.cfrperformance.com/30_FINNED_ALUMINUM_TRANSMISSION_COOLER_p/hz-0054.htm). I wonder if that'll fit. If it were me I'd go bigger if you can.

Here are the pics that you asked for...

This is the box it came in...
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r305/ny_smasher/IMG_1539.jpg
The box had "made in taiwan" on it.

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r305/ny_smasher/IMG_1528.jpg

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r305/ny_smasher/IMG_1530.jpg

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r305/ny_smasher/IMG_1531.jpg

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r305/ny_smasher/IMG_1532.jpg

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r305/ny_smasher/IMG_1533.jpg


http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r305/ny_smasher/IMG_1534.jpg

A internal pic...

http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r305/ny_smasher/IMG_1536.jpg

It also came with this...
http://i147.photobucket.com/albums/r305/ny_smasher/IMG_1541.jpg

No need to buy them seperately

[TTMR]

Looks to be an identical cooler, same as the one I bought just a bit larger.

[gooeytek]

nice find Will ! I'mma get me some.

[MattRobertson]

Excellent pics! Yup looks identical, except I know some guys who got some woogedy mounting ears they had to sweat bending back. And the barbs are a nice touch. Looks like a winner for a source! I'm going to update the opening part of the thread with a ref to your post on this.

edit: in fact it would probably be smart to page thru and put in quick links to some of the other contributions you guys have input. Over the last couple years you guys have all added a lot.

[Mymopar]

just a heads up, the 08+ filter's threaded adaptor has a hex drive in the center of it. im wondering if the block is still 3/4" thread behind it. if it is, you can convert your car to the older system for very little cost.

Just a FYI, while at the stealership I read a notice that was on the mechanics board stating that they changed from SAE thread to metric sometime in 2008 for the oil filter. I don't know if this will be an issue or not, just something to keep in mind.

I found a replacement for the Derale power steering cooler.

http://www.cfrperformance.com/24_FINNED_ALUMINUM_TRANSMISSION_COOLER_p/hz-0053.htm

What do you guys think about it?

I have been putting this off but now I am placing an order. Nice find!

[NYC_SRT8]

Just a FYI, while at the stealership I read a notice that was on the mechanics board stating that they changed from SAE thread to metric sometime in 2008 for the oil filter. I don't know if this will be an issue or not, just something to keep in mind.



I have been putting this off but now I am placing an order. Nice find!

Another great thing is it shipped the same day of purchase. I got it in 5 days from time I placed the order. Where ever I looked for the Derale cooler they were on back order for atleast a month.

[fargo59]

Just a FYI, while at the stealership I read a notice that was on the mechanics board stating that they changed from SAE thread to metric sometime in 2008 for the oil filter. I don't know if this will be an issue or not, just something to keep in mind.

thats what i meant. early to mid 2008 they changed both gen 3 hemi's and the v6's to M22 x1.5 threaded filters.

[MattRobertson]

Just a FYI, while at the stealership I read a notice that was on the mechanics board stating that they changed from SAE thread to metric sometime in 2008 for the oil filter.Yeah thats known but its something that should be put into the thread. Thx for the heads-up.

Another great thing is it shipped the same day of purchase. I got it in 5 days from time I placed the order. Where ever I looked for the Derale cooler they were on back order for atleast a month.
Yeah I am thinking that since these guys are private-labeling it, including the barbs and shipping promptly that they are buying from whoever Derale is buying from, and doing a better job of things overall.

[NYC_SRT8]

Yeah thats known but its something that should be put into the thread. Thx for the heads-up.


Yeah I am thinking that since these guys are private-labeling it, including the barbs and shipping promptly that they are buying from whoever Derale is buying from, and doing a better job of things overall.

And cheaper!!!!! I paid $60 shipped

[Cibalo]

Hey I hope it's ok to post this hear Matt. If not just move it.

I've been getting my car updated to do some more serious road racing. Last time I went out my oil temp got up to 275 after 3 hard laps (and they weren't even that hard based on my track times). I've been reading Matt Robertsons posts about his mods and based on that decided to go ahead with a few mods to help me get around the track better and put as much wear on the car. Some of these mods you already know about.

Pedders Track II
http://i39.tinypic.com/10i5w1w.jpg

Slotted rotors
http://i26.tinypic.com/118ofew.jpg

Paddle Shifters
http://i39.tinypic.com/1z6eck3.jpg

These should help me get around the turns better, but what I hadn't done is beef up the cooling systems. I ordered the parts based on Matt's list and then set up a time to get them installed. I have a buddy that owns a custom shop that does all kinds of work and we agreed to do this in the evening. The first night we were there until 2AM working on the car and the next night we put in about another 4 hours.

Ok on to the pictures. Here are the boxes from summit. These contain all the fittings, coolers, fluid, and hoses.
http://i26.tinypic.com/2n7pcwk.jpg

http://i27.tinypic.com/23r760z.jpg

This box contains the oil cooler and a few BT pieces that you've already seen.
http://i30.tinypic.com/2zztaat.jpg

A few things that I learned. The little cooler on the front of the SRT is for the power steering. The tranny cooler is behind it on top and the A/C condenser is below it. Behind all of that is the engine radiator. Initially I was going to do auxillary coolers for the oil, tranny, and power steering. However since I have a good size power steering cooler I elected to not install the one I bought. This also meant i didn't have to fab up some mounting tabs and relocate my horns. I know some have had issues with the power steering pump going out even on the SRT but that was under some hard steering like doing drifting and autocross from my understand. If things look bad I'll go back and install it.

the first thing was the tranny cooler. This wasn't too bad. We made some mounting brackets and attached them to the cooler with some 5/16" all thread and then bolted the brackets to the front bumper rail.

http://i38.tinypic.com/2i8tzeu.jpg

We came off the top tranny fluid line from the stock cooler and went into the aux cooler and then back into the line we cut. the connections for the stock tranny cooler are a special connection that has a little retainer clip so it's important not to lose it. We did have to bend the metal hose so that it could fit with the fascia on. That sucker is tough and last thing we wanted to do was kink the hose.

http://i36.tinypic.com/eg7gax.jpg


http://i36.tinypic.com/24zvcwi.jpg

Next was the oil cooler. This wasn't too bad but there are some things to be aware of if you're doing this on the SRT and maybe on other 300s as well. I used the mopar police oil kit and followed the install how to by rjkusse. The oil filer nipple has to be taken out and the only way to do it is get on it with a pair of vise grips, you're not going to need it anyways. After we got the cooler unit on we tried to put the filter on. I got the same filter that is recommend M1-204 (Mobil 1) and that sucker wouldn't fit. The nipple on the oil cooler is bigger. After some searching we found that I needed a M1-210. The other thing is that the lower radiator hose replacement is a different size than the stock one on the drivers side connection. It should be a 1.65" ID but it was a 1.44" it doesn't sound like much but when you look at them you can tell. We ended up using some heat and a pair of pliers to stretch it out enough that we could get it on. Its tough but do-able.

Here is the oil cooler
http://i34.tinypic.com/dnnfd4.jpg

and it after it's installed
http://i34.tinypic.com/4fzyns.jpg

The last thing we did was install some steel brake lines that I got from BMC.
http://i36.tinypic.com/2zohdus.jpg

I haven't had much chance to drive it but so far no leaks. I've been monitoring my oil temp but haven't been on the road long enough to see where the temp gets to. I know that driving at 70 on the highway the temp was around 220-225 so I'll see if it keeps it colder.

Sorry I don't have more pictures but we were moving pretty fast and didn't have much time for pictures. Last thing on the list is some new tires. I got a spare set of SRT wheels from Meech, just need to put some rubber on them.

[NYC_SRT8]

Nice job my friend. The pic with your stainless steal lines...did you drill a hole in the bracket to mount it on the inner wheel well? How did you do it? When I put mine on I left it dangling which I really didn't like.

[Cibalo]

I just mounted them up where the old ones went. They were plug and play really. I used the stoptech ones, they came with all the mounting hardware

[NYC_SRT8]

I just mounted them up where the old ones went. They were plug and play really. I used the stoptech ones, they came with all the mounting hardware

I'll take a look at mine tomorrow. I have stop tech lines as well. I know mine came with the braket for the knuckle but not for the inner wheel well.