View Full Version : Climate Controls Lighting?
viennatech
11-11-2006, 10:54 AM
I have a 300 Touring model. It has the standard climate controls and i noticed that they are completely dark at night. Can you confirm for me that this is normal? Maybe i just have a burned out bulb but i find it terrible on a car of this class to have a dark place in the middle of the dash at night. There is nothin that lights up so when i want to adjust the heat, i'm doing so "in the dark"!
Any insight?
Super T
11-11-2006, 12:00 PM
I seem to recall someone else having this problem a while ago and the dealer shying away from servicing it because the whole control unit had to be replaced rather than just a bulb. I don't remember if they actually did or not or if they ended up being wrong. Maybe whoever it was will chime in...
King Magnum
11-11-2006, 11:58 PM
I am on my THIRD one...
fnkychkn
11-12-2006, 07:43 AM
the backlighting bulbs for the HVAC controls are soldered to the circuit board. chrysler doesn't sell them seperately. unless you can find a supplier and someone to replace them, you'll have to replace the control head.
Cdn_Magnum
11-12-2006, 10:07 AM
Makes for an expensive 7 cent bulb... would be tempted to get on of these things that have burnt out bulbs and replace them with white LEDs. Not having seen the inside of one of these yet, I would have to say that it should be do-able ...plus the LEDs would last longer than the car :)
Anyone care to offer a burnt out one up for testing?
fnkychkn
11-12-2006, 12:54 PM
Makes for an expensive 7 cent bulb... would be tempted to get on of these things that have burnt out bulbs and replace them with white LEDs. Not having seen the inside of one of these yet, I would have to say that it should be do-able ...plus the LEDs would last longer than the car :)
Anyone care to offer a burnt out one up for testing?
i'll see if i can find an old one. i kept one for test purposes. hopefully, i'll find another.
Rev.Hammer
11-12-2006, 01:48 PM
DA CHIKKIN DONT RUN!! He bee bad to de thighbone!
Super T
11-12-2006, 02:03 PM
Too funny... yesterday I was at my dealer and a guy brought his magnum in for the exact same problem. They just swapped his controller because they happened to have one in stock. I told the guy it's a common problem. The service tech looked at me all confused-like... I told him I've heard of four of five doing it. The confusion got worse :-) Some days I almost want to fill them in on this forum so maybe they stop treating customers like we're all ignorant, but then again, there are things I don't want them to know ;-)
Cdn_Magnum
11-12-2006, 03:42 PM
i'll see if i can find an old one. i kept one for test purposes. hopefully, i'll find another.
Pete.....
Thanks man, I think this would be a good experiment, especially for the guys who are out of warranty on this item. I love tinkering with this stuff.
Keep me posted.
:)
oldschool
11-12-2006, 08:24 PM
My controls were dark too...DC gave me no lip when I brought it in. replaced the whole unit lickety split!
oldschool
This is a relatively easy fix once the most appropriate LED is selected.
The best way is to pull all the bulbs (cheap bastards that supply DC for this!) drop in LEDs and then identify a trace that can be cut, the solder mask scraped off the ends and a surface mount resistor mounted.
Then you will never have to change one again. (for a lighting issue, anyway...)
Selecting the right LEDs is more than just colour. You want the lighting levels to match up well with the rest of the dash.
Nightshade
05-07-2007, 09:52 AM
This is a relatively easy fix once the most appropriate LED is selected.
The best way is to pull all the bulbs (cheap bastards that supply DC for this!) drop in LEDs and then identify a trace that can be cut, the solder mask scraped off the ends and a surface mount resistor mounted.
Then you will never have to change one again. (for a lighting issue, anyway...)
Selecting the right LEDs is more than just colour. You want the lighting levels to match up well with the rest of the dash.
can also get PLCC2 led's pretty cheap..
I will likely be doing that when I get my replacement HVAC control unit. Mine is also dark but am getting it replaced under warranty. so will have a spare to play with once that is done..
Am sure this isn't gonna be a tough thing to do.. just gotta figure out if it's a 12V signal.. and if so, what resistance is needed to drop it to 3V for the surface mount LED's.. (and try to find surface mount resistors that aren't in packs of a thousand)
Lost815
05-07-2007, 10:12 AM
:popcorn: interesting would like to do the same....maybe we can some LEds that would match the ones in the ESP/Wiper panel.
fnkychkn
05-07-2007, 08:41 PM
AFAIK, voltage to those bulbs is PWM (pulse width modulated) to match cluster illumination intensity. not sure how LEDs react to PWM voltage.
Fondy
05-07-2007, 11:01 PM
mine has a few that go on and off if you tap the controls...... I will say something to the dealer next visit. maybe get a replacement
viennatech
05-08-2007, 07:50 AM
Yes agreed. After getting 2 of these changed out with darkened faces i learned how to fix it. A Sharp rap on the face using my fingertips will get it to light up for a week or more. It seems as if i'm beating the car like a bad kid but hey. I want the damn lights to work!!! ;)
The pwm would depend on how high the pulse goes and how wide it is, many OEM LED tails control the bulbs with PWM to get the dim running and then bright for brakes/turn signals. If the circuitry was intended soley for incandescent bulbs the pulses may be too spread out and they would flicker LEDs. I am sure that a good multimeter that can read Hz can tell us how many pulses per second the circuit puts out. Anything over 60 should look solid.
AFAIK, voltage to those bulbs is PWM (pulse width modulated) to match cluster illumination intensity. not sure how LEDs react to PWM voltage.
Nightshade
05-14-2007, 07:59 PM
Well, good news and bad news.
Bad news, it's ALOT more than 3 bulbs as I had seen in another picture that someone posted.
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e38/jvoisin/HVAC_Control/IMG_1496.jpg
It seems that instead of using blue LED's they used clear incadescent bulbs and put a blue cover on them..
Measuring resistance I can tell that they are all tied together with a common signal that I suspect is 12V. The power comes in on a single pin which means it would be somewhat easy to splice in and add a resistor.. further, power comes in on one circuit board and goes across a ribbon cable to a second.. this 12V line is on this ribbon.. so maybe can cut the wire for 12V and add in a resistor.. or even a resistor and capacitor to filter out any PWM singals that may make the thing blink..
From what I remember, I don't remember that dimming though.. thought it was the same brightness all the time regardless of what setting I have the car at... will look tonight...
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e38/jvoisin/HVAC_Control/IMG_1497.jpg
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e38/jvoisin/HVAC_Control/IMG_1498.jpg
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e38/jvoisin/HVAC_Control/IMG_1500.jpg
Here is a picture showing the two lines that all the bulbs are connected to... it is labelled so you will need to view it full size..
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e38/jvoisin/HVAC_Control/powermodule.png
Relatively easy fix for anyone who can solder...
Cdn_Magnum
05-14-2007, 09:00 PM
Like Jaaks says... its not a huge deal. I am just completely surprised they even BOTHERED still using incandescent bulbs in a SEALED unit!!
I am modifying a stock HVAC unit for a non-dual zone system.... 3 LEDs and a resistor like Nightshades said :) The only real issue 'might' be the spread of the light from the LEDs, it has to be channeled down clear plastic runners to the front panel. I i might have to experiment with different types of LEDs
Nightshade
05-14-2007, 09:05 PM
Relatively easy fix for anyone who can solder...
Twelve LEDs, one resistor (will need to figure out what value.. LED's will all be in parallel).. am measuring about 8 ohms resistance across the bulbs...seems that they have separate lines completely for the bulbs.. so should be easy to figure out.
No need for surface mount LED's either..
Nightshade
05-14-2007, 09:07 PM
Like Jaaks says... its not a huge deal. I am just completely surprised they even BOTHERED still using incandescent bulbs in a SEALED unit!!
I am modifying a stock HVAC unit for a non-dual zone system.... 3 LEDs and a resistor like Nightshades said :) The only real issue 'might' be the spread of the light from the LEDs, it has to be channeled down clear plastic runners to the front panel. I i might have to experiment with different types of LEDs
Single zone, 3 bulbs and 3 surface mount LED's?
Dual zone, 12 bulbs and 3 surface mount LED's (fog, recirculation and AC)
Wow, quite the difference...
If you really want to do it right, ideally each LED should have it's own resistor, but you can likely get by with one for the group. But they all have to be all the same LED from the same batch. And even then, one may end up being slightly brighter than another.
Russ, I agree, it may take some work to get LEDs with the right dispersion to illuminate correctly. A bit of trial and error I suspect.
Even a longer life incandescent would be a better solution than what's in there.
If I had mine apart, I'd make some measurements, but there's bulbs out there that are pretty inexpensive. LED's are better in the long run, of course!
http://www.newark.com/jsp/Optoelectronics,+Lamps+&+Displays/Lamps/SPC+TECHNOLOGY/2174/displayProduct.jsp?sku=50N8114
Cdn_Magnum
05-15-2007, 07:13 AM
Russ, I agree, it may take some work to get LEDs with the right dispersion to illuminate correctly. A bit of trial and error I suspect.
Jim, I was thinking of doubling up on small white LEDs, 3 mm or so. Pointing them in opposite directions. These days the cost of the LEDs in not a question ;) Even then its going to tak e a little experimenting to get the light channeled down the lexan light guide properly, but its still very doable.
Yeah, 3 whole bulbs in the single zone control Rear defrost and recirculate are already surface mount LEDs :)
Oh and yes they do dim with the brightness control.
This might be the project to work on this coming long weekend.... get it finished up and tested. At least it will get all the opened up HVAC control unit off my desk....lol
I'll report progress on this single zone unit soon.
viennatech
05-15-2007, 07:54 AM
I'm pretty certain that mine does not have burnt out bulbs, more like a cold solder joint or perhaps a burnt out bulb driver.
I had a completely black face, tapped it in the upper right corner, got knob 1 to light up, then kept tapping, knob 2 and half of knob 3 but I cannot get the other half to light uop.
Few more taps and the defrost button lit up. that's as far as it would go. Now whenever it goes dark, tap tap, it comes back. so the bulbs are prolly ok. it's something else that is loose.
Nuclearjack
05-15-2007, 10:04 AM
great you can add me to the list that doesnt have lights for his climate control. No warranty either. Has anyone successfully replaced the bulbs yet?
Cdn_Magnum
05-15-2007, 10:28 AM
I'm pretty certain that mine does not have burnt out bulbs, more like a cold solder joint or perhaps a burnt out bulb driver.
I had a completely black face, tapped it in the upper right corner, got knob 1 to light up, then kept tapping, knob 2 and half of knob 3 but I cannot get the other half to light uop.
Few more taps and the defrost button lit up. that's as far as it would go. Now whenever it goes dark, tap tap, it comes back. so the bulbs are prolly ok. it's something else that is loose.
I can pretty much assure you that when your tapping the HVAC all your doing is getting the filament to reconnect. There is no driver circuit it comes straight from the dimmer circuit. On the single area controller the 12V line is common (pin 7A on the circuit board) to all the bulbs and the ground is (3A on the circuit board) common to all the bulb.
The 'spare' unit I have was as you described as well.. tap it and it would work... was definately a bulb when i tapped the bulb enough i could get it to not work.
The tap will only work a few times, then you're FUBAR. It's a shame they used such low lifes... Bulbs that is.
Cdn_Magnum
05-15-2007, 10:43 AM
Here is a shot of the back of the single area HVAC controller board
The ground and power are marked that the bulbs are connected to.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/Airsoft_Wolfman/HVACback.jpg
And here is the front of the same controller board.... the bulbs are removed, but you can see the silkscreening and the markers that I put on to identify the bulb terminals.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/Airsoft_Wolfman/HVACfront.jpg
Nuclearjack
05-15-2007, 11:16 AM
Here is a shot of the back of the single area HVAC controller board
The ground and power are marked that the bulbs are connected to.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/Airsoft_Wolfman/HVACback.jpg (http://http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/Airsoft_Wolfman/HVACback.jpg)
And here is the front of the same controller board.... the bulbs are removed, but you can see the silkscreening and the markers that I put on to identify the bulb terminals.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/Airsoft_Wolfman/HVACfront.jpg (http://http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/Airsoft_Wolfman/HVACfront.jpg)
How did you remove the bulbs? I have a friend that can solder ...... if its an easy job to pull and then solder new bulbs in place I would rather try that then messing around with LEDs. (no offence to the modders)
Nightshade
05-15-2007, 11:17 AM
So russ, Were yours surface mount bulbs? Mine are standard mount.. which makes installing an LED quite simple.. and I think if I get the wide angle LED's it will be a perfect fitment.. I don't think I will need to worry about light dispursement (sp) as the LED's should have similar lighting properties..
Cdn_Magnum
05-15-2007, 11:47 AM
So russ, Were yours surface mount bulbs? Mine are standard mount.. which makes installing an LED quite simple.. and I think if I get the wide angle LED's it will be a perfect fitment.. I don't think I will need to worry about light dispursement (sp) as the LED's should have similar lighting properties..
Yes, the bulbs on the single zone unit are surface mount :) Still a bit of a PITA tho because they have to be raised up to have the light directed into the lexan light guide. I am thinking of cutting the trace for C1-7(A) on the board which is the variable signal for dimming coming from the instrument cluster and adding the current limiting resistor at that point for easy of the operation.
On your dual zone unit C1-3 should be ground and (my best guess without seeing the unit) is that C1-5 is your variable signal from the cluster (or its C1-4) You would have to meter it out to confirm.
<edit>looking at the schematic again...... damn could be C1-7 too on your dual unit that is the variable from the cluster...... a meter would definately tell you :)
Nuclearjack
05-16-2007, 12:09 AM
So tapping the panel turned on the right side which is ok because thats the directional knob that I really need to see the others ones I can figure out. Lets see how long it lasts.
When you tap it, you make the broken filament touch and it welds itself back together. At this point, you already have a weak filament and it's going to burn through somewhere else anyway... So if you're lucky, you get a few times of this, but there will come a point where it just falls apart and you're done.
Changing it to LEDs is relatively easy. Changing it to LEDs that look as good or better than the bulbs, might be a bit tougher. I'm looking forward to how you guys do, so it saves me time when mine goes!
Cdn_Magnum
05-16-2007, 07:32 AM
Will be picking up some white LEDs today. I want to sand or lightly file the top lense a bit flat on the first three and add a bit of silver paint to the area I sand, hoping to reflect the light inside the lense a bit more. If that doesnt work out well then I will try variations on LED orientation and numbers.
Still very well worth experimenting with :)
Here is a pix of the 'light guide' inside the front panel. I marked where the 3 stock bulbs sit in this guide for the standard HVAC control
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/Airsoft_Wolfman/lightguide.jpg
Wow, isn't that cool looking!
I need to look up some LED's that have some interesting lens' but I'm concerned that they would sit too low to be useful. The lens is designed to shoot the light out the sides, instead of the front.
They're also very high output and about $12 each... But there may be lower power versions of the same thing.
Cdn_Magnum
05-16-2007, 08:11 AM
Wow, isn't that cool looking!
I need to look up some LED's that have some interesting lens' but I'm concerned that they would sit too low to be useful. The lens is designed to shoot the light out the sides, instead of the front.
They're also very high output and about $12 each... But there may be lower power versions of the same thing.
Keep me posted on what you find Jim. THe light output doesnt need to be high at all based on what I saw with the original bulbs. I'm thinking <= 500 mcd or somewhere arount there. It would be easy to build up a standoff from the board 'if' the LEDs are sitting too low :)
Don't have the detail handy but this is what I'm talking about.
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e266/srt8jaak/LEDs/cxccee.jpg
These are Luxeon side emitters.
I also recommend you guys do some reading at www.candlepowerforums.com (http://www.candlepowerforums.com)
Nuclearjack
05-16-2007, 11:15 AM
When you tap it, you make the broken filament touch and it welds itself back together. At this point, you already have a weak filament and it's going to burn through somewhere else anyway... So if you're lucky, you get a few times of this, but there will come a point where it just falls apart and you're done.
Changing it to LEDs is relatively easy. Changing it to LEDs that look as good or better than the bulbs, might be a bit tougher. I'm looking forward to how you guys do, so it saves me time when mine goes!
Hey thanks for the info. I was wondering how a burned out lightbulb was fixed by tapping it.
Would changing it to a new bulb be the cheapest solution? Im not looking for cooler or better just want to be able to see the control.
Cdn_Magnum
05-16-2007, 11:39 AM
Hey thanks for the info. I was wondering how a burned out lightbulb was fixed by tapping it.
Would changing it to a new bulb be the cheapest solution? Im not looking for cooler or better just want to be able to see the control.
From DC's point of view, this is a 'Non-User Serviceable' part. You would need to buy a whole new HVAC unit.
But, yes short of finding a 'good' replacement bulb and having a fine pencil point soldering iron and a steady hand, you could do it yourself.
Cdn_Magnum
05-16-2007, 11:48 AM
I plan on cutting the trace on either side of the feed-thru hole and attaching my current limiting resistors to the traces and feed-thru. That will feed 2 LEDs on one part of the board and 1 LED on the other.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/Airsoft_Wolfman/plannedcuts.jpg
Stay tuned for more as we progress :Na_Na_Na_Na:
Changing it to LED's is only slightly more work than replacing the bulbs. May as well stay tuned to see who finds the best LEDs for the job and do it when you have to.
Nightshade
05-16-2007, 09:31 PM
getting power is easier than I thought.. there is a common ground but power is unique to just the led's...
http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e38/jvoisin/HVAC_Control/circuitboardmodification.png
one trace cut.. and solder in the resistor between two posts.. Pretty easy.. I don't think it's worth separating each LED and putting in resistors for each.. the way they the bulbs were on the board, it would involve scraping off a ton of silkscreen cutting traces and soldering in surface mount resistors for each one.. bleh.. pass.. ;-)
The blue covers that were on the bulbs fit PERFECTLY on standard LED's.. I haven't desoldered the mount points for the led's.. so the holes are still solder filled (don't have a desoldering pump)..
Trying to find a schematic for this or at least a layout is a pain in the arse..
Nightshade
05-17-2007, 01:23 AM
Based on using Standard 5mm Super bright LED's from onzium..
Each LED = 4.0V @ 20mA
There are 12 LED's...
Source voltage is 12VDC.
We would need a 39 ohm resistor at 2watts to power these LED's in parallel at the rated voltage and current...
Resistor needed = (Source Voltage - LED Voltage ) / (LED Current * LEDS)
Resistor Wattage = (Source Voltage - LED Voltage ) / (LED Current * LEDS)
I will likely use a 43 ohm resistor instead to reduce the current so I am not so close to the max 20mA.. and these are friggin' bright.. so don't think I need 8000mcd.. am sure the stock incadescent bulbs aren't anywhere near 8000mcd...
Now to hunt for a 2 or 5W 43 ohm resistor and some LED's..
Cdn_Magnum
05-17-2007, 08:31 AM
The results of last nights 'quick' test with the LEDs.
This was done with ordinary white LEDs. I had not modified the LED housings for this test (that coming this weekend I think). There is some 'hot spots' from where the LEDs are pointing, being as they are som much more directional than an incandescent bulb which is what we're replacing. But, it looks promising.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/Airsoft_Wolfman/LEDtest.jpg
Cdn_Magnum
05-17-2007, 08:43 AM
Ummm.... opened up the unit again to show the LEDs mounted and lit up on the work bench....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/Airsoft_Wolfman/notlit.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v244/Airsoft_Wolfman/liteup.jpg
I wonder if you painted the very top of the lens with silver paint if that would block and reflect the light enough to even it out...
Cdn_Magnum
05-17-2007, 01:45 PM
I wonder if you painted the very top of the lens with silver paint if that would block and reflect the light enough to even it out...
Actually Jim that is going to be the first experiment before trying to modify the actual lense. I would also be tempted to try a 3mm High Flux style.. they have a wider spread (70 degree). Might give that a shot tonight yet.
GoldNnasty
05-17-2007, 02:15 PM
Would it help to vary the proximity of the led to the plastic lenses??
Just a thought.
Cdn_Magnum
05-17-2007, 03:11 PM
Would it help to vary the proximity of the led to the plastic lenses??
Just a thought.
:)
Good point. I had played with the distance from the guide before choosing the same mounting distance as stock. Theres isnt much in the way of 'free' distance. It really doesnt make that much difference if the LED is as close to the board as possible or sitting in the same position as a filament bulb would (since I am using a 5mm LED).
:thumbs_u:
Nightshade
05-17-2007, 03:25 PM
:)
Good point. I had played with the distance from the guide before choosing the same mounting distance as stock. Theres isnt much in the way of 'free' distance. It really doesnt make that much difference if the LED is as close to the board as possible or sitting in the same position as a filament bulb would (since I am using a 5mm LED).
:thumbs_u:
I have some ultra bright 3mm LED's.. but I have them in blue and green only I think,, I can look when I get home..
How late is Sayal open for?
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