Questions regarding the Pirelli Scorpion Ice&Snow

[dbblackdiamond]

Hi,

I bought a set of Pirelli Scorpion Ice&Snow for Maggie for the winter months. I have been running them for the last couple of weeks and really liked the way they handled in dry conditions. I would say that they are better than the Contis.

Last weekend, we had the first snow of the season. To make matters a bit worse, the ground was still warm when it started snowing, so the snow melted and turned into ice later, then got covered in snow. I thought "Awesome" I'll get a feel for how the Ice&Snow handle in the real stuff and boy was I surprised: I was slidding all over the place!!!! Everytime I touched the brake pedal, the ABS would come on. At every intersection, if I was turning left or right, the ESP would come on.
I know the conditions were pretty slick, but I have used H-rated winter tires on all of my previous cars in some pretty dire conditions and none of them had that slippery feel to them.
That got me thinking that maybe there are several version of the Ice&Snow as folks on this forum seem to like them. The ones I have are the 235/60 18 107H XL N0. For those who are happy with their Ice&Snow, do you have the same ones?

If so, what is your experience?

Thanks a lot in advance.

[jaak]

I have them in 20's and I find them decent on ice, but lousy on snow. But it could just be watching the AWD's eat me alive that is the problem.

The tires look to be a compromise, not an agressive snow tire, but in Toronto, you can usually get away with all season radials, so I'd actually classify them as good all seasons, not great snow tires.

But they smoke pretty good...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e266/srt8jaak/th_Jaak-Hemiwagn-Burnouts.jpg (http://s41.photobucket.com/albums/e266/srt8jaak/?action=view&current=Jaak-Hemiwagn-Burnouts.flv)

[UnderTaker]

i have them too, they are (ok) i'm sure if i had the AWD i would like them alot more... i'm going to put them on this weekend i think.

[dbblackdiamond]

I have them in 20's and I find them decent on ice, but lousy on snow. But it could just be watching the AWD's eat me alive that is the problem.

The tires look to be a compromise, not an agressive snow tire, but in Toronto, you can usually get away with all season radials, so I'd actually classify them as good all seasons, not great snow tires.

But they smoke pretty good...

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e266/srt8jaak/th_Jaak-Hemiwagn-Burnouts.jpg (http://s41.photobucket.com/albums/e266/srt8jaak/?action=view&current=Jaak-Hemiwagn-Burnouts.flv)

Well, if I decide to change them, then I will use them as my summer tire as the Contis are pretty bold, so I might try a few burnouts with them.

[dbblackdiamond]

i have them too, they are (ok) i'm sure if i had the AWD i would like them alot more... i'm going to put them on this weekend i think.

Well,when I look at how they did last weekend, I am not sure AWD would have done anything more. To get going required very gentle application of the throttle, but where I was disappointed was in the cornering ability of the tires and AWD would do nothing for you there.

[formerice]

I put 100 lbs sand bags in the back and mine did ok but wore out pretty quickly. I'm going to try something different this winter, heck maybe the BFG KDWS's. If it gets bad' I'll just drive my Ram.

[dbblackdiamond]

Hi,

just a quick update. After giving the Scorpions a chance, I decided that I didn't feel comfortable with them, especially considering that the car will have to be driven through mountain passes on a regular basis, so I phoned a tire shop and they advised me to put the Bridgestone Blizzak LM-25 on the car. I searched the net trying to find reviews on them, to make sure that this time they would do the job. I couldn't find much, so I phoned another tire shop and asked the same question and they told me again about the LM-25. I decided to take the plunge and to get them installed. Luckily for me, we had some good snow here and it has been snowing since I got them installed. As soon as I started the car on the snow covered parking lot, I could feel the difference. I got all the way home without the ABS or the ESP coming on. I had found what I was looking for: traction and grip!!!!

It has been snowing for the last 2 days here, so all the streets are covered with it. Today I took Maggie out for a spin to get give the tire a good workout and they performed flawlessly: no more ESP or ABS, just traction.
With the help of the ESP and the ABs, Maggie is a joy to drive on snow. Of course, one needs to be delicate with the throttle when starting as the amount of torque available makes it easy to break the tire, but other than that, the LM-25 are the $h*t for me.

I am sure the Scorpions are nice in other type of winter, but not for the stuff we get in Calgary.

[jaak]

Good to know they do indeed lack in ability. Kind of suspected that.

So what else fits 20's?

[Token]

Glad you found a tire that works well for you

So ...... are you selling off the Scorpions then? Toronto isn't nearly as bad as Calgary.

[jaak]

No, I'm still going to use them this winter... :)

[Token]

No, I'm still going to use them this winter... :)Not you!!!

[jaak]

LOL! What, you figure AWD will make up for lack of traction? Why not just stick with what's on there?

[Token]

LOL! What, you figure AWD will make up for lack of traction?Actually YES! Same tires, same wintery conditions, our 2 cars at a stoplight, GREEN... who's leaving first? And who's more likely to safely navigate the bend in the road up ahead?

Why not just stick with what's on there?What's on there now are the Conti. 4X4 Contact, essentially an all season tire, a rather agressively treaded all-season, but an all-season just the same, with about 20,000km on them. I have my DUB rims for summer use, so I only really need a winter setup, not an all-season. While the Scorpion Ice are obviously not the greatest winter tire, they will likely be better than my current all-season tires.

dbblackdiamond found that for his conditions they do not meet what he was looking for. By the sounds of it, those conditions are far worse than we typically experience in Toronto.

He was going to use them as summer tires, but they won't last very long at all in summer, the rubber compound is way too soft for that.

So I just thought, rather than him spending twice for winter tires, only to end up with a set that won't even get him through the summer, he could recoup. some of his losses, sell the Scorpions to me, which SHOULD be adequate for our winter, use that money towards a set of tires of his choice for summer.

Sure I'm taking a chance that the Scorpions won't be good enough for the winter here either, and whatever he decides to sell them for would definately be a consideration, but I'm betting they will, at least, be as good as the Conti's. So worst case senerio, I have 2 sets of "marginal" winter tires, where again the AWD should help in making them passable.

[jaak]

Well, you've got yourself convinced, what are you waiting for? My opinion of the Scorpions are they're slightly better than all season radials, but not much. I think calling them a snow tire is a bit of a misnomer. Maybe that's why they don't call them Snow & Ice instead.

What's navigating a bend have to do with AWD? AWD only helps you go, not stop or corner!

[Token]

My opinion of the Scorpions are they're slightly better than all season radials, but not much. I think calling them a snow tire is a bit of a misnomer. Well, if they are really that bad, maybe I should consider something else.

[jaak]

I'm only feeling that way because my ass end was sliding around in the slush while Mr. Niftie basically drove away like like all was well. The difference seemed much more than 2 vs. 4 wheels. But there's not a lot of choice in 20's. That's where I really wondered about going to 18's for winters. I figured I'd tough it out, because the reality is we don't suffer with a lot of snow on the roads in Toronto, and I have a home office so if it's a bad day and I can see it coming, I schedule it as an office day and avoid it. Plus I figure there's bound to be better tires on the way, as 20's become more common.

They're a heck of a lot better than F1's in the winter!

[Token]

Well, OK...but that's not really a fair comparison the F1's would be like driving a ski, not even a good ski, one of those rentals, with no edges.

And not having the choice to work from home...hmmm

[jaak]

Yeah, so the Pirelli's were great after the F1's this time of year. Until I was owned by Mr.Niftie's AWD!!!

[Scott]

I’m glad you guys piped-up about the less than stellar experience with the Scorpions. I was just about to place an order for a set, but if they are marginally or no better than all-seasons on ice, then it’s back to the drawing board.

I was hoping to get a winter tire that would have good dry/wet handling for the majority of winter driving, good ice traction for safety, and at least decent traction in snow, as I get caught a few times a year driving 4-6 hours through snow storms.

I’m now bewildered because of previous LXforums posts by Northern Rider and others that raved about the Scorpians. Similiarly, TireRack highly rates the Pirelli’s in all parameters, including ice and deep snow.

What accounts for this discrepancy in reports? Were folks reporting initial impressions after switching from bald all-season’s? Is it location?

I’m in Wisconsin, we used to get terribly cold winters, but since the early 90’s, it is milder, so some of the precipitation comes as rain, then freezes, then it starts snowing again. These snow over ice situations are a hazard on less than well traveled roads where salting is infrequent or spotty. Central and southern Wisconsin has an average 47 inches of snow a season. It is rare for more than 8 inches of snow to come at one time. I also travel into Minnesota where there is a bit more.

What makes a tire good for ice? I thought it was partly the rubber compound is suited (softer?) for cold temps. I’ve also read the blurbs on the unique Blizzack microcell structure and dual rubber compounds in some models. However, some winter tires are squirmy and I would like to avoid that. It would be a major let down to have poor dry/wet road handling five months a year.

Dpblackdiamond, please tell me about how well the LM-25’s do on dry and wet roads. These are advertised as a performance winter tire, but I see they are the same load rating as stock, 99, so I’m also wondering about sidewall flex.

Might an extra-load rated winter tire, like those for SUV’s, provide a better combination of characteristics for me? Is good dry and good ice performance too conflicting to exist in the same tire?

Thanks in advance,
Scott

[NVRDUN]

I recently installed some pirelli winter 210 tires. These are claimed as a high performance winter tire. In dry weather they are excellent, very quiet and comfortable. Two days ago I had my first experience in snow, they did very well as long as I wasn't heavy on the gas pedal. Then the temp warmed enough to melt the snow just in time to re-freeze. I can barley walk in the parking lot at work, it is a solid sheet of ice, and these tires are making it possible to navigate the parking lot. I have not had any high speed driving on these tires, but I expect good results. Do I have the same amount of grip on ice as I do dry ground. No, but I dont expect to have great grip on ice, I do however have enough grip to turn and not slide all over the place. I dont expect that just because I have snow tires I can launch in snow and ice like I am at the drag strip. I am very pleased with the Pirelli 210 winter tires, and feel alot safer when the roads are nasty.

[jaak]

Yeah, and the Ice&Snows work fine in those conditions too. Where they suck is in deep slush or snow, as they aren't blocky enough to bite in to it.

So I think of them as a high performance winter version of an all season radial. Not a good choice if you truly have to deal with a lot of snow, but in Toronto, it's only an issue for about 3 days a year as the roads are cleared pretty fast.

But did I get my clock cleaned in the slush by Mr. Niftie! And that was more than AWD vs. RWD. I could tell the I&S's just clogged up with slush and and spun and I was trying very hard not to give it much gas. A Prius would have beat me.

[jbp-ohio]

What makes a tire good for ice? I thought it was partly the rubber compound is suited (softer?) for cold temps. I’ve also read the blurbs on the unique Blizzack microcell structure and dual rubber compounds in some models. However, some winter tires are squirmy and I would like to avoid that. It would be a major let down to have poor dry/wet road handling five months a year.

The soft rubber also wears fast, if you run them year round, you could wear them out in less than 20,000 miles. I just ordered some Blizzak Z3's. Only the first 50% of rubber has the microcell stuff. Mine will be off in early March......

[Scott]

I just ordered some Blizzak Z3's. ......

After you have them for awhile, let us know how they do.

[jbp-ohio]

Called for LM-25's, but they didn't have them in 225/65R17's. Wanted the same diameter as my Coopers since I had the size changed w/ Starscan.......