View Full Version : Will it be what we really expect?
Bandit
10-21-2006, 05:08 AM
Ok, bear with me here for a sec....
The Challenger will have to outperform the current LX platform to be a success in many people's eyes. As it stands the R/T will have the drivetrain of the LX's SRT8's , and the Challenger SRT8 could be a new motor so it stands to reason that the Challenger will indeed beat out the LX's.
BUT
I don't think it will be by a huge margin. Why do i think this way you ask? Well, here' my own theory:
I don't think DCX will allow a $35-$60k car outperform their flagship Viper. But the problem is that I would want to see a significant performance increase over my Magnum SRT8 if I'm going to lay out the rumored $60k for my Challenger SRT8.
Do you think that if the Challenger came really close to the performance of the Viper that it would impact Viper sales? The Challenger would be way less money, more roomy, more practical, and probably a better driver for daily driving.
STAGE 3 R/T
10-21-2006, 05:23 AM
in english please! lol
I hear what you're saying, but we don't know what they might be doing to the Viper as well. After all, the new 'vette's pretty nasty, so the Viper has some catching up to do!
Besides, all they really have to do is make the Challenger a bit faster than the others, and accidentally on purpose slip out how to open up and tweak the PCM as well as making sure the Challenger's high end motor is built to take modifications well. That with a mechanism to detect when the PCM's been tampered with and they would sell a lot as well as still be able to bill you for the repairs when you push it too far, without sneaking it in as a warranty claim.
FloridaRT
10-21-2006, 07:09 AM
The Viper has a V-10, the Challenger has a V-8, come on, get real.
Yes, the Challenger will be fast, but NOT as fast as a Viper.
I would buy the Challenger just for the looks..........hope they come out with a convertable (they won't), but I can dream.
I want one but my wife would kill me, am still in the doghouse for buying the Magnum RT................2 years later.
Oh well.
Bob
Ok, bear with me here for a sec....
The Challenger will have to outperform the current LX platform to be a success in many people's eyes. As it stands the R/T will have the drivetrain of the LX's SRT8's , and the Challenger SRT8 could be a new motor so it stands to reason that the Challenger will indeed beat out the LX's.
BUT
I don't think it will be by a huge margin. Why do i think this way you ask? Well, here' my own theory:
I don't think DCX will allow a $35-$60k car outperform their flagship Viper. But the problem is that I would want to see a significant performance increase over my Magnum SRT8 if I'm going to lay out the rumored $60k for my Challenger SRT8.
Do you think that if the Challenger came really close to the performance of the Viper that it would impact Viper sales? The Challenger would be way less money, more roomy, more practical, and probably a better driver for daily driving.
I am guessing the Challenger will be four to five hundred pounds lighter which should give it four to five tenths in the quarter alone over the SRT's not to mention it being more nimble. Give it more ponies and than the current SRT's and it will only amplify performance gains.
As far as the Vipers go I am in total agreement with you. No way is DCX going to allow a " non exotic " from their own stable whoop on them. To combat that I would take another guess that they have something underway to up the Viper's performance aswell.
Hemi31
10-21-2006, 07:24 AM
Bandit,
The new Viper will have a bare minimum of 650hp,with the possibility of 700.I wouldn't worry too much about the Challenger outperforming it.Rumor was Dodge waited for Chevy to release the Z06 so they could see how high they needed to go.
RandomAccess
10-21-2006, 10:29 AM
When it comes down to it... nobody has any clue what will actually hit production... we know what the concept looks like, but who knows how they'll ruin it for production...
SUPERBEESRT8
10-21-2006, 11:10 PM
Description
This is a Limited make 2007 Charger SRT8 Superbee. Only 1,000 to be made. This is number 68. Leather trim seats with perforated suede trim accents. 6.1 liter SRT HEMI (R). SMPI V8. 5 speed automatic transmission. Aluminum SRT design wheels. Performance tires. High performance suspension. Performance tuned steering. All speed traction control. Electronic stability program. Brake assist. Halogen headlamps. Power windows. Lumbar adjust. Air conditioning. Tilt steering wheel. Sirius satellite digital radio. AM/FM CD with changer controls. 11 Kicker SRT High Performance speakers. 276 watt Kicker SRT Amplifier. 200 watt Kicker SRT Subwoofer. Navigation system with GPS, DVD based with 6 CD/MP3 player. Heated front seats. Automatic dimming rearview mirror. Power sunroof. :loser: I CAN GET THIS THING TO HAVE OVER 600 HP.:racing: I DON'T THINK THE CHALLENGER WILL OUTPERFORM THE VIPER BUT REMEMBER BACK IN THE 60'S AND 70'S THEY HAD CHOICES. CHALLENGER, BARACUDA, CHARGERS, SUPERBIRDS, ROADRUNNERS, HEMI CUDAS ETC....
Bandit
10-21-2006, 11:22 PM
I hear what you're saying, but we don't know what they might be doing to the Viper as well. After all, the new 'vette's pretty nasty, so the Viper has some catching up to do!
Besides, all they really have to do is make the Challenger a bit faster than the others, and accidentally on purpose slip out how to open up and tweak the PCM as well as making sure the Challenger's high end motor is built to take modifications well. That with a mechanism to detect when the PCM's been tampered with and they would sell a lot as well as still be able to bill you for the repairs when you push it too far, without sneaking it in as a warranty claim.
You make a good point about upgrading the Viper to meet or beat the Zo6. That thing is absolutely insane. I doubt however that DCX will let us by HAL on the Challenger. It's been a couple of years and we still can't craack the HAL on the LX's.
The Viper has a V-10, the Challenger has a V-8, come on, get real.
Yes, the Challenger will be fast, but NOT as fast as a Viper.
I would buy the Challenger just for the looks..........hope they come out with a convertable (they won't), but I can dream.
I want one but my wife would kill me, am still in the doghouse for buying the Magnum RT................2 years later.
Oh well.
Bob
Well Bob, I am being real. Look at it this way...
Viper 1/4 mile: 11.7
Charger SRT-8: 13.5
(R&T numbers)
That's not a huge difference. With the Challenger we can expect a car roughly 500 pounds lighter, and it is possible that the drivetrain will produce substantially more rwhp than the current LX SRT8's do right now. Let's say that even fully tweaked from SRT the Challenger hits 12.0's... that's dangerously close to the $80k+ exotic flagship of Dodge.
V10 vs V8 means very little. I can show you tons of guys who pull 8 sec passes from a smallblock 350.
When it comes down to it... nobody has any clue what will actually hit production... we know what the concept looks like, but who knows how they'll ruin it for production...
Dodge is pretty well known for producing a car nearly identical to their concepts. This began with the Stealth and Viper, then carried through on the Magnum as well. It's Chevy that is notorious for changing a substantial amount from concept to production.
Description
This is a Limited make 2007 Charger SRT8 Superbee. Only 1,000 to be made. This is number 68. Leather trim seats with perforated suede trim accents. 6.1 liter SRT HEMI (R). SMPI V8. 5 speed automatic transmissionSRT design wheels. Performance tires. High performanc. Aluminum e suspension. Performance tuned steering. All speed traction control. Electronic stability program. Brake assist. Halogen headlamps. Power windows. Lumbar adjust. Air conditioning. Tilt steering wheel. Sirius satellite digital radio. AM/FM CD with changer controls. 11 Kicker SRT High Performance speakers. 276 watt Kicker SRT Amplifier. 200 watt Kicker SRT Subwoofer. Navigation system with GPS, DVD based with 6 CD/MP3 player. Heated front seats. Automatic dimming rearview mirror. Power sunroof. :loser: I CAN GET THIS THING TO HAVE OVER 600 HP.:racing: I DON'T THINK THE CHALLENGER WILL OUTPERFORM THE VIPER BUT REMEMBER BACK IN THE 60'S AND 70'S THEY HAD CHOICES. CHALLENGER, BARACUDA, CHARGERS, SUPERBIRDS, ROADRUNNERS, HEMI CUDAS ETC....
Nice car man. Although I have no idea how it relates to the conversation. :)
But as nice as the Super Bee is, it has the exact same performance as the rest of the SRT8 lineup. The main difference between the Super Bee and the standard Charger SRT8 are a few black vinyls and a numbered plaque.
aries4life
10-22-2006, 03:38 AM
ya, I was trying to find the relavance too..
FloridaRT
10-22-2006, 08:18 AM
I would buy the Challenger even if it only had a V6....................
It just looks so cool.
I always wanted a Challenger in the old days.
Bob
2ndmag
10-22-2006, 10:32 AM
The Viper will no doubt be upgraded. Right now the Vette is the better value comparing price/performance. No way will DC let this stand!
COOKZ32
10-22-2006, 11:00 AM
Bandit from what I know of you, I think you would be really happy with the Challenger, even if it was not as fast as the Viper. What color Challenger would you get...............?............. Let me guess........:thumbs_u:
RT NOMAD
10-22-2006, 11:27 AM
The Challenger's competition is not the Viper (totally different vehicle). The Challenger must compete with the Shelby Mustang when it hits the showroom floor. That is the sole issue: Mopar vs Ford or GMC.
nick_danger
10-22-2006, 12:01 PM
No matter how good they make the Challenger, one thing will remain:
Viper > LX/LY at both the track and in exclusivity. Completely different classes.
If the new Viper will truly be in the 700HP range, that will clearly seperate the two even more. Even if someday Dodge unveiled a 600HP LZ-platform car that ran high 11s off the factory floor, it still wouldn't be as unique looking or as unique of a driving experience as the first Viper release.
BobCav
10-22-2006, 12:03 PM
I'm not planning on getting a Challenger. Since I was a kid, I just never liked the body style at all, Charger, Challenger or the Barracuda. I don't care how fast it goes, I just don't like the style. It looks great and there's a lot of tech in there, but it's just not what I want at this stage of my life.
SUPERBEESRT8
10-22-2006, 09:05 PM
I KNOW THERE IS NO RELATION TO THE CONVERSATION. I'M NEW... I DIDN'T SEE ANYTHING ON THE SUPERBEE SO I FIGURED I WOULD POST SOMETHING HERE SINCE IT IS A 2007 AND YOU GUYS WERE TALKIN ABOUT NEW CARS FOR 08. I DIDN'T SEE ANYTHING ABOUT THE BEE. BUT I WILL BUY THE CHALLENGER ALSO.. I AM HAPPY THAT MOPAR FINALLY CAME BACK.. TO COMPETE WITH FORDS AND GM...IT'S ABOUT DAMN TIME... I WILL BUY ANY SPECIALTY VEHICLE THEY HAVE CAUSE WHO KNOWS WHEN THEY WILL GO BACT TO TO BUILDING REGULAR CARS LIKE THE STRATUS, AND NEONS....THESE ARE REAL MOPARS.. CHARGER SRT8'S, CHALLENGERS, VIPERS,ETC..:racing:
http://www.lxforums.com/board/attachment.php?attachmentid=5482&d=1161486367
I think that if DCX just gets it out there it will sell well in variatioms from V-6 to SRT-8. A lot of people want something that looks good and don't really care about speed. The originals were sold that way,even though you cant tell by the number of Hemi Challengers you see at auctions on television.
Bandit
10-22-2006, 10:14 PM
Actually I'm really glad that the Challenger won't be offered in V6. That's what cheapened the Mustang. Every kid that could finance $20k was driving one.
It makes it more exclusive, and I won't feel the absolute NEED to have to prove what my car can do to everyone on the road... they'll KNOW what it can do since there are no V6 versions.
Hopefully it will help kepe the resale value up a little bit as well.
MagNite
10-23-2006, 08:00 AM
I think that Chryslers real problem is that when the Challenger comes out, it will take some sales away from the Charger. Not to offend any Charger owners, but I think most people would buy a Challenger over a Charger because of the classic look of the Challenger. Yeah sometimes politics come into it. When the Regal Grand National came out, it was embarrassing to GM that it was faster than the Corvette at the time. That's probably why it had a 125 mph limiter. Supposedly it was because of the speed rating on the tires. Yeah right. And then look at the Fiero and the Corvette. The Fiero really could've been a little bad ass with the right engine. Some companies were making kits where you could shoehorn a 400 V-8 into them. But again, would've benn a smaller, and cheaper alternative to the Corvette.
stevesrt8
10-24-2006, 07:00 AM
yes, and we've met a Charger owner or two already! Hello?
Challenger is too heavy. This will hurt its dynamics, but it will have more content than Ford. LX platform based means lots of technology, rigidity, quality, etc., in a cool looking platform. Great concept! But you still have to deal with the "road hugging" weight. Far and away the quality car so far in the "pony" segment.
Camaro is high in potential. Z06 gives us an idea on that by showing a very low weight! If the new Camaro is similar in weight it is an unbeatable advantage. Vehicle dynamics will be so much better there will be no comparison! But it is a concept vehicle, and in GM that means "maybe, maybe not".
The GT500 Mustang is incredibly heavy and has no content. Old design, even older engineering. Just another supercharged Ford. Tweaked to death but didn't start with much. It will be very fast until it blows up! Will still continue the tradition of cheap as soon as the new car hubbub dies down. Kudos to Ford for actually getting it in a showroom despite their difficulties.
Displaced Hokie
10-24-2006, 07:21 AM
Challenger is too heavy. This will hurt its dynamics, but it will have more content than Ford. LX platform based means lots of technology, rigidity, quality, etc., in a cool looking platform. Great concept! But you still have to deal with the "road hugging" weight. Far and away the quality car so far in the "pony" segment.
This is what worries me. I hope the Challenger doesn't come out and be a heavy two door like a Monte Carlo when compared to the Mus and Cam.
Hokie
weight: the new shelby gt500 weighs 3900 pounds and flies plenty good. Best of 12.2 through the QM Stock. It is said to handle well. There are articles praising current SRT8s for their handling, I'm not sure this will be any different.
Viper: Will always be 4 cuts above the challenger, and the difference between 13s and 11s in the qm is light years. The new viper will be blisteringly fast, low 11s and I would bet my eye teeth the challenger will be a mid low 12 second car based on a little lessweight than the current srt8s and maybe a little more go.
V6 versions - welfare muscle cheapens the car and in the case of the mustang exist so they can justify the platform in part. DCX doesn't have this worry I guess as it is spun off the LX platform. The last thing most guys would want is to see tourists renting v6 challengers.
30k a year - a little low but I'd rather have a guaranteed 30k a year sales base ongoing than to try to shoot the moon in one year. GM for example is keeping their solstice / sky roadsters low production to keep demand up for them.I would say 50k a year for challengers would not be out of the question, but as someone already stated, capacity may be an issue.
Price - 60k? In that contest where they are giving a challenger away, the legalese says approx retail price for base (R/T v8 I guess) to be 30k. My guess was 30k with the srt8 going for like 38k.
Either way my 500 is down.
mikoazca
10-25-2006, 10:19 PM
Same here. I stopped at my dealer today and reserved one (actually told him to call me when order info arrived). I have been considering an '07 Magnum RT/R&T or SRT, but ultimately know I want something different next time. Mine will be a Hemi Orange or Plum Crazy 6 speed RT.
jhs914
10-26-2006, 02:08 PM
As it stands the R/T will have the drivetrain of the LX's SRT8's , and the Challenger SRT8 could be a new motor so it stands to reason that the Challenger will indeed beat out the LX's.I must be asleep at the wheel. I have not heard this. The last I saw at Allpar.com was that the Challenger R/T would be a 5.7 and the SRT8 would be the 6.1.
http://www.allpar.com/cars/dodge/challenger.html
jtw715
10-27-2006, 10:13 AM
The Challenger's competition is not the Viper (totally different vehicle). The Challenger must compete with the Shelby Mustang when it hits the showroom floor. That is the sole issue: Mopar vs Ford or GMC.
Not just the Shelby, but also the GT and of course the Camaro. The original poster stated a rumored 60 grand for this car. This may indeed be the "adjusted market" case when the car is first released, but I expect MSRP prices to be in the high 20's to low 30's for the stock R/T, and mid 30's for the SRT version. DC does not want to price out their target audience, and the Challenger is not a specialty car per-say. Remember that Ford is selling the Shelby <---- for way over MSRP because it's a Shelby. Dodge doesn't have a Shelby-esque endorsement for the Challenger. At the end of the day, as much as we love these cars, it's still just a Dodge :).
BBMagnumRTAJ
10-27-2006, 11:46 AM
The Viper has a V-10, the Challenger has a V-8, come on, get real.
Yes, the Challenger will be fast, but NOT as fast as a Viper.
I would buy the Challenger just for the looks..........hope they come out with a convertable (they won't), but I can dream.
I want one but my wife would kill me, am still in the doghouse for buying the Magnum RT................2 years later.
Oh well.
Bob
Yeah, the viper has a v10, but it can still be out performed by a v8.
You know the firepower concept? It uses the 6.1L hemi instead of the v10 from the viper. Same chassis, different body pannels.
The 6.1 is lighter than the v10, making it better for the track (better handling, not so heavy in the front end).
I believe the v10 wont be around for too much longer.
I know you can modify the v10 to be much faster than a v8, but all the mods for the viper are EXPENSIVE. Headers, for instance, are around 1500. I can only imagine how much heads would be.
That, and no back seat in the viper make the challenger a winner.
Still want one.. I want a 2 door hemi.
Blue Beast
10-27-2006, 04:29 PM
the SRT version of the challenger is rumored to be the 6.4 hemi with number 550/550 +/-
(numbers all hear say)
the viper however has been taken off the shelf for the 2007 year and will be back in 2008 after being woked over by Team McLaren........700hp from the V-10 NA, very possible.........
just look at McLarens 722, it's a V8 with 650hp and 605tq with 3.06 gears and a top speed of 209mph +/- with an AUTO none the less
rwalshphoto
01-24-2008, 06:03 PM
I love the Vipers and all, but in reality they are not THAT impressive. Its a freakin V10 exotic and its a pig in relation to power:displacement ratio of a lot of small blocks. However, its all about elitism and exclusivity like so many of you have said. I think the Challenger appeals to a different crowd but could easily compete with a Z06 after some mods (at least in a straight line).
Bandit
01-24-2008, 06:21 PM
But do realize in most every test the Viper has out performed most every car under $200k.
Slalom, braking, acceleration... everything.
I would buy the Challenger just for the looks..........hope they come out with a convertable (they won't), but I can dream.
hhhmm, maybe thats why the trunk was made longer on the production model as compared to the concept car? so that the could do a convertible?
viper vs challenger, two totally different vehicles with different buyers (one being very rich), i doubt they will affect each others sales...with the new chrysler, i wonder if the viper will be around much longer anyway.
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