On the cover of MPH Again - At $38K?

[Dilliam]

The Challenger, Camaro, and Shelby Mustang are on the cover of this months MPH. The Challenger has a blurb on it stating that it is estimated at 425hp and 38k. WTF? How do they expect to compete as a "pony car" when the Camaro is 400 hp and estimated at 30k.

[shiltz]

That is the one thing I am worried about with the Challenger, that since it's based off the LX frame they are going to price it the same as the LX which simply won't work for what the car is targeted at, for the Challenger to really be sucessfull they need to drop the price significantly from the Charger/Magnum, around the the 20-21k range for the base 3.5L, 25-26k for the 5.7L and maybe in the 30-32k range for the 6.1L, high price could very easily kill off the car regardless of how good it is, that's what killed the firebird/camaro, they were better performing cars than the mustangs but a mustang was cheaper so that's what people bought.

[Dilliam]

I absolutely WON'T buy it at 38k. I would buy the Camaro instead, in a heartbeat. And before everyone starts GM bashing in this thread, check out the problems I am having with Dodge before you start calling GM crap.

[jaak]

GM makes crap. GM also makes good cars. Unfortunately the ratio is slanted the wrong way.

DCX makes crap. They also make good cars. Fortunately, I'm driving one of them.

This means nothing until we actually see what they produce. With the Challenger, we have an idea because of the LX. With GM we have the Corvette and the GTO to base things on? Don't know how good the Camaro is, until they make one.

[Northern Rider]

The Challenger, Camaro, and Shelby Mustang are on the cover of this months MPH. The Challenger has a blurb on it stating that it is estimated at 425hp and 38k. WTF? How do they expect to compete as a "pony car" when the Camaro is 400 hp and estimated at 30k.

First off, there is no Camaro - just a static concept. There is no platform on which to build it. One could die holding one's breath for this puppy to roll out.

The Challenger can be built on the existing Brampton line on an LX platform shortened by 4 inches (to be called the LY). It can also come out with a base V6 to compete with the base Stang.

Expect a "pricey" 6.4 liter 500 hp HEMI with a 6 speed manual to compete with the 07 Shelby Stang.

As to a mid ranged V8 - My guess is for the 5.7 HEMI - with a price of under $35K.

And - expect the Challenger to roll out within the next 12 to 15 months.

[Dilliam]

The mag specifically says the Camaro would be on the Goat's platform.

[shiltz]

The Camaro is no more of a static concept currently than the Challenger is, both are built off existing cars and drive trains, about the only thing that would make the Challenger more likely to be built is Chrysler isn't having financial problems like GM is.

Also the Challenger wouldn't be able to be built at the Brampton plant as that plant is already at max capacity, they would have to build a new plant or retool an existing one to have the capacity to build Challengers, and if the mid level with the 5.7 was $35k it wouldn't do well at all, why would someone buy a $35k Challenger that wouldn't keep up with a $25k Mustang, heck at that price range you may as well spent $995 more and get an SRT-8 Charger.

[Dilliam]

GM makes crap. GM also makes good cars. Unfortunately the ratio is slanted the wrong way.

DCX makes crap. They also make good cars. Fortunately, I'm driving one of them.

This means nothing until we actually see what they produce. With the Challenger, we have an idea because of the LX. With GM we have the Corvette and the GTO to base things on? Don't know how good the Camaro is, until they make one.

How can we have an idea about the Challenger and not the Camaro? We have -EXACTLY- the same information about each one. Both are built on platforms of existing cars, both have prototype engines, etc. You can't say you have an idea about the Challenger, and not the Camaro. If anything, we know MORE about the Camaro, as it is on a Goat frame where the Challenger is on a CHOPPED LX frame.

[darkrebel]

First off, there is no Camaro - just a static concept. There is no platform on which to build it. One could die holding one's breath for this puppy to roll out.

The Challenger can be built on the existing Brampton line on an LX platform shortened by 4 inches (to be called the LY). It can also come out with a base V6 to compete with the base Stang.



i thought the camaro was going to be built on the vette platform. Thats what i have heard of several times. not sure about the validity but its what i believe is going around.

[Northern Rider]

i thought the camaro was going to be built on the vette platform. Thats what i have heard of several times. not sure about the validity but its what i believe is going around.

That would be great if it happens. Very expensive platform for a pony car.

[Dilliam]

The article specifically listed the Goat as the donor platform.

[adaptabl]

Also the Challenger wouldn't be able to be built at the Brampton plant as that plant is already at max capacity, they would have to build a new plant or retool an existing one to have the capacity to build Challengers, and if the mid level with the 5.7 was $35k it wouldn't do well at all, why would someone buy a $35k Challenger that wouldn't keep up with a $25k Mustang, heck at that price range you may as well spent $995 more and get an SRT-8 Charger.

The 300 is yesterdays news(sales are starting to slip). There will be lots of capacity at the plant in 12 months. Charger and Magnum sales have not been that great. The lots are full of unsold Daytonas. If DC can sell a $30,000 V8 Challenger they can spark another sales boom. At $38,000, well there will always be rebates.

[shiltz]

Huh? their sales aren't starting to slip, they sold more 300's just this past nov (05) than they did back in nov (04) and the Magnum and Charger sales are holding pretty much right around where they always have been.

The lots are probably full of Daytonas because they have a small market to sell to with those, most don't want all those decals all over their car or a banana yellow sedan, I know I don't, i'd take an R/T with the road and track package over a Daytona anyday.

[jaak]

You can't say you have an idea about the Challenger, and not the Camaro. If anything, we know MORE about the Camaro, as it is on a Goat frame where the Challenger is on a CHOPPED LX frame.

I look at Daimler influenced DC designs and I like what I see. I don't care much for the non Daimler influenced designs, because they're not up to the standards I want in a vehicle. Well, OK, I'd take a Viper any day.

I look at the GM designs and for past two decades the only vehicle I've ever taken a real interest in, is the Corvette. I grew up in a GM family and loved their vehicles for the longest time. But I've long ago given up on them.

When Daimler stepped in and brought their technology knowledge, things changed. Unless the Camaro bleeds Corvette technology, I'd be much more interested in the Challenger.

[E8502]

Seems high from what I've heard.

[RobAGD]

It makes sence to do the Camero on the Holden frame, no need to new frame tooling.

As to the Challenger they are going to have to drop the price a bit if they want to be in the pony car race, along with weight. As to the Chopped unibody structure, I could see some very small changes being made and they have 3 center sections 1 Short (Challenger) 1 Normal ( Charger, Magnum, 300 ), 1 Long for the 300 Strech and the Imperial. Doing it this way keeps tooling to a minium.

I look forward to a new round of Pony Cars, My next one is going to be a FJ most likley and use the magnum as a weekend car :) Unless something just stirs me greatly.

-R

[allpont]

I have always owned GM...never even thought about anything else...until I bought my wife a PT criuser. Then the Magnum came out. So now the GM fleet is gone and we are now all Dodge...the wife is eager to take the new Caliber for a drive. I even got my dad to trade the Town Car in for a 300.

NO OTHER vehicle I've owned in the past 28 years has made me want more ! GM has A LOT of catching up to do, as evident by their lose is $ale$ !!

[MCaesar]

The problem is we are most guessing. But the guessing is even more vague for GM because the Zeta platform, on which the Camaro and next generation GTO, are to be built has been cancelled, reinstated, and potentially cancelled so many times no one knows for sure if it is a go.

Contrast that with the Challenger which is based on a real production platform and with Chrysler's history of actually producing show cars.

[Dilliam]

The problem is we are most guessing. But the guessing is even more vague for GM because the Zeta platform, on which the Camaro and next generation GTO, are to be built has been cancelled, reinstated, and potentially cancelled so many times no one knows for sure if it is a go.

Contrast that with the Challenger which is based on a real production platform and with Chrysler's history of actually producing show cars.

Everything states that the Camaro has the GTO engine, GTO platform. Does not sound too hard and there is not too much guessing there.

[cadzilla74]

You go allpont! You'll be getting a Ryan Newman t-shirt next...lol. Dilliam makes a good point, GM has all the pieces to make a nice Camaro without a ton of retooling. They went WAY too conservative on the GTO styling on what is otherwise a very driveable car. It will get the driver's heart-rate up, just doesn't do much for the great unwashed seeing it from the outside. Some people like sleepers, too. As for the Challenger, a slight weight disadvantage can be easily overcome. I think it's going to be a great driver's car. The price might be more of a sticking point. I hope GM gets back in the game. A Challenger, a Mustang GT and a Camaro to choose from ain't too shabby. Come 2008 I bet the sales figures for each model are almost an exact chart of the sales for those models in 1970. Boomers with money are going to be the biggest market for all 3 and now we can all relive our collective childhood. PLEASE DCX put the 6.4 HEMI in the Challenger.

[FUll Throttle]

I knw the guys that actually built the Camaro at GM Design. The chassis is a Cadillac STS that was shortened 4" in the back seat area. The Rear suspension was also STS. The front suspension was from Holden but NOT the GTO front. It is completely diffferent. The trans and trans tunnel came from the CTS-V. This car will be built on a new platform when released. in 08 or 09

MIke

[MCaesar]

I knw the guys that actually built the Camaro at GM Design. The chassis is a Cadillac STS that was shortened 4" in the back seat area. The Rear suspension was also STS. The front suspension was from Holden but NOT the GTO front. It is completely diffferent. The trans and trans tunnel came from the CTS-V. This car will be built on a new platform when released. in 08 or 09

MIke

That is the big difference. The Challenger already has its platform, the Camaro does not. The Camaro production car is not going to be built on the CTS/STS platform. It will share a platform with the next generation GTO.

GM revived its rwd plans late last summer after halting efforts to develop North American vehicles on Zeta last winter. Last winter, GM

executives said that the initial plan for the Zeta vehicles was not workable but pledged to develop a new strategy.

Possible Zeta vehicles included the Buick Velite concept, Pontiac GTO and Impala. (See box, right)

Stefanyshyn would not reveal the entire lineup under consideration but said the next-generation Impala "is a possibility."

GM's styling studio has prepared both rear- and front-drive versions of the next Impala, according to an industry source who did not want to be identified.

The engineering of the new group of vehicles will be handled by GM's Holden subsidiary in Australia, which built the Holden Monaro that is the basis for the current Pontiac GTO.

The architecture will debut in the second half of this year on a redesigned Holden model. GM also is considering a rwd model for China.

Stefanyshyn was named vehicle line executive for the Zeta architecture a year ago. After the program stalled, he canceled plans to move to Australia. Now that the program has been revived, he will relocate to Australia in February and restart the



http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060116/SUB/60113070/1023/rss01

[Northern Rider]

That is the big difference. The Challenger already has its platform, the Camaro does not. The Camaro production car is not going to be built on the CTS/STS platform. It will share a platform with the next generation GTO.



http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060116/SUB/60113070/1023/rss01

The current Holden platform was already "old" when Pontiac rushed the new Grand P - er - GTO to market. No way will they use the CTS/STS platform - big $$$.

I agree - new platform - late 08 or early 09 release, for the Camaro. Pity.

[MCaesar]

The current Holden platform was already "old" when Pontiac rushed the new Grand P - er - GTO to market. No way will they use the CTS/STS platform - big $$$.

I agree - new platform - late 08 or early 09 release, for the Camaro. Pity.

Typical GM

They are too big and slow to make moves in this fast-paced world. They have been arguing about the zeta (RWD) platform for 2 years now. How stupid is that?

I think the LX cars have shown the way.

Their great big truck launch is lukewarm because despite a very good job on the engineering they still don't have stylists with balls. It is like either GM does a boring styling job - the new trucks, the Impala SS, etc. - or they get stupid with the styling like the Aztek.

They should pay whatever is needed to steal some DCX stylists.

[Fiveoh]

When it comes to vehicles, I'm not married to any. Doesn't matter if it is Ford, GM, DCX, BMW, etc, etc...whoever makes the best looking and performing car in my price range and tickles my functional considerations get's my money.

Now with that said, my family is partial to GM's, but they haven't produced a car that I liked or could afford. Plain and simple. However, if they do this Camaro right...I'll buy it. Excepting being how DCX does the Challenger. I really don't like the Challenger's look over the Camaro's, but I do like the performance specs of the Challenger. It will be a hard choice to make.

[Northern Rider]

When it comes to vehicles, I'm not married to any. Doesn't matter if it is Ford, GM, DCX, BMW, etc, etc...whoever makes the best looking and performing car in my price range and tickles my functional considerations get's my money.

Now with that said, my family is partial to GM's, but they haven't produced a car that I liked or could afford. Plain and simple. However, if they do this Camaro right...I'll buy it. Excepting being how DCX does the Challenger. I really don't like the Challenger's look over the Camaro's, but I do like the performance specs of the Challenger. It will be a hard choice to make.

I'm not, either. I've raced more Fords than anything else. When I drove the "new" Mustang, I just couldn't get past the horrible axle hop.

The Challenger has the benefit of coming from the LX platform which came from the previous Mercedes E-Class platform, that was developed at great cost - hundreds of millions of dollars.

It is a certainty that the Challenger will have IRS - and a very intelligent computer system (9 processors) ensuring that the power hooks up to the ground; that the car can stop as well as go - and - go around corners like it is on rails.

For the sake of the North American car industry, I hope that GM can create and build a similar platform within the next 24 months.