Challenger engines....

[TurboAWD]

Taking cues from the 6.1L powered show car and the 6.4/392 powered 1970 challenger vert that was at SEMA(also sporting a pistol grip and sitting in the mopar booth) suggests a few things. If this car is going to be a 2008 Model, then wouldnt all the SRT-8s be powered by 6.4 HEMI engines by that time?

As for 6 cyl engines I would suspect atleast 4.0L in a base and sxt type model and then 6.1 R/T and 6.4 SRT-8. This may sound funny to not have a 5.7L but you're eating mustang sales with the 6 cylinder and GTO/Mustang GT with the 6.XL engines.... 2008 is far enough away to make this complicated.
Jesse

[bipto]

How about...

SE - 4.0L V6
SXT - 5.7L HEMI
R/T - 6.1L HEMI
SRT8 - 6.4L HEMI

wishful thinking..?


Don't forget...

http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=20838

[Drew's RT]

Wouldn't that be nice...

[bluefox]

Oh yeah thats what I'm talkin bout! :rock:

[Zentenk]

R/t 5.7
Srt 6.1

[Trouble]

If the SRT version doesn't have something in the neighborhood of 50+hp more, preferrably a different motor altogether and around 100hp more than today's SRT's , I'll be in a non DCX vehicle. A used Viper or a new Elise (yeah totally sybil type picks there) have been waiting to be in my garage but I've held off. Hell it may be even a Z06 or modern-for-the-day Mitsu or Subie for less cash. Come on Chryco, IMPRESS ME...I GOT MONEY. 425HP on that car isn't likely going to cut it 2-3 years from now. My main question...how much will it weigh? 4K like current LX's? Not gonna do!

-Trouble

[chasb]

My '69 Dart 340 GTS with six pak weighed in at 3360lbs and did 12.9's consistently with no headers and 4.10 gears.

This new baby has to break the 4,000lb barrier to play with the old challenger/cudas.


If the SRT version doesn't have something in the neighborhood of 50+hp more, preferrably a different motor altogether and around 100hp more than today's SRT's , I'll be in a non DCX vehicle. A used Viper or a new Elise (yeah totally sybil type picks there) have been waiting to be in my garage but I've held off. Hell it may be even a Z06 or modern-for-the-day Mitsu or Subie for less cash. Come on Chryco, IMPRESS ME...I GOT MONEY. 425HP on that car isn't likely going to cut it 2-3 years from now. My main question...how much will it weigh? 4K like current LX's? Not gonna do!

-Trouble

[MattRobertson]

The way I see it DC is going for platform standardization... parts commonality. That means R/T=5.7 and SRT=6.1 across the board. I'd love to be wrong as I want a Challenger SRT to join my Magnum in the garage, when the time comes, and it'll be a weekender that I keep stock, I think (except for the flames :D ).

[karma]

http://www.autoblog.com/entry/1234000270066570/

Pics of that '70 SRT-8 Challenger...and of the 392 on a stand.

[shiltz]

How about...

SE - 4.0L V6
SXT - 5.7L HEMI
R/T - 6.1L HEMI
SRT8 - 6.4L HEMI


better yet drop the 4.0L V6 on the SE and put in the 4.7 V8 instead, then it would be all V8's for the car.

[Trouble]

The 4.7 is a rather hated motor for many Moparists. A guy I work with has one in his truck however and I sure can't figure out anything specifically bad about it. Not that it means much but in fact the sound is quite pleasing...My 5.4 Triton sounds horrible in comparison.
-Trouble

[gn300]

[QUOTE=shiltz]better yet drop the 4.0L V6 on the SE and put in the 4.7 V8 instead, then it would be all V8's for the car.[/QUOTEHave to have a v-6 for all the reg non car guys to have a conv that replaces the sebring.But BRING ON THE HEMI's WHO CARES 6.1-6.4 BRING ON THE HORSES.

[shiltz]

na, even the non car people can get a V8, why put a large 6 over a small 8, it's not like it's really all that much better fuel economy, especialy if they end up adding MDS to the 4.7.

I never really heard anything bad about the 4.7, one of the guys I work with had a jeep grand cherokee with the 4.7, he never had any issues with it as far as I know, I think he liked the 4.7 in the jeep over the 5.7 hemi in his ram actualy.

[Rev.Hammer]

keep it light and add more might and ever'thang'll be all right!!

Bitpo.... keep talking dirty to me!

[MattRobertson]

keep it light and add more might and ever'thang'll be all right!!Yer preachin' the Gospel there, Rev!

[Rev.Hammer]

Outtasight!!

[Dutch]

better yet drop the 4.0L V6 on the SE and put in the 4.7 V8 instead, then it would be all V8's for the car.

No, you need the cheap V6 for volume sales. The reason the Mustang has lasted so long is that there are so many V6 sales. The large volume makes it much easier for the line to be profitable. They should target the V6 Mustang's $20k price point with a V6 Challenger.

I can't imagine they'd ever offer the 4.7L V8 because it costs more to build than the Hemi does.

[Teahead]

I really doubt the the '09 Challenger will have the 6.4L. that will mean that 510HP Challenger will have more HP than the 505hp Viper! Also, I don't think there's a transmission that can handle that kind of HP (unless they put in the Viper T56 in it).

The 6.4L is made for the aftermarket.

[shiltz]

I really doubt the the '09 Challenger will have the 6.4L. that will mean that 510HP Challenger will have more HP than the 505hp Viper! Also, I don't think there's a transmission that can handle that kind of HP (unless they put in the Viper T56 in it).

The 6.4L is made for the aftermarket.

They have transmissions that can handle it, actualy the actual mercedes version of the 5 speed we get can, they used it in 600hp cars, just the one built here is lower speced, they probably use lower end materials on ours for cost reductions.

As for being more HP than the Viper i've heard a few rumors saying the vipers V10 is going to be replaced with a hemi V10 that will be pushing 650+HP, so if that rumor is true then there wouldn't be any issue with the challenger having 510HP.

[Rev.Hammer]

Another thing with a Benz tranny that can take a whoopin in the one that is in that big freakin wierd looking MB Military based SUV... bah... cant remember the name of it but I know it cant take it!

[bipto]

As for being more HP than the Viper i've heard a few rumors saying the vipers V10 is going to be replaced with a hemi V10 that will be pushing 650+HP, so if that rumor is true then there wouldn't be any issue with the challenger having 510HP.
Yep, that's the rumor alright - and seeing as the new 'Vette stole the performance crown, I wouldn't rule out a HP boost for the Viper next year...

[MCaesar]

NO V6 models!

The 5.7 should be the base. The 6.1 the intermediate choice. And the 6.4 should be limited production monster motor.

[MCaesar]

Yep, that's the rumor alright - and seeing as the new 'Vette stole the performance crown, I wouldn't rule out a HP boost for the Viper next year...
yeah, the Viper needs an all new engine. the current V10 is old school tech based on the old 360.

I really would like them to take the hemi and make a V12 version for the Viper. 10 cylinders are odd firing designs that don't sound good naturally.

[shiltz]

I don't belive the viper engine is based off the old 5.9L, you're thinking of the old 8.0L viper engine which was based off the 5.9L, they replaced that engine on the 2nd gen vipers with the current 8.4L which I belive was a stand alone engine design, not based off of another one.

[MCaesar]

While a natural extension of the classic American V-8 (the small-block LA series, to be exact

http://www.allpar.com/model/viphist.htm

The new Viper SRT-10 was heavily restyled with sharp, angled bodywork. The engine has been enlarged to 8.3 L which increased output to 504 hp (375 kW) and 525 ft·lbf (711 N·m) of torque

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodge_Viper

The new look is striking, but the big news is underhood: An illuminated starter button brings to life an entirely new 8.3-liter (505 cube) V-10 engine that packs a whopping 500 horsepower and 525 lb-ft of tire-melting fury.

http://motortrend.com/roadtests/coupe/112_0306_spdvip/

How new is "all new"?

Either way, it is an underperformer in terms of power per liter. Allpar says:

The 8.3-liter, 505 cubic-inch Dodge Viper V-10 engine retains the basic architecture of its predecessor, which in turn was based on the venerable LA V8s. The Conner Avenue Assembly Plant is the only auto plant in America that builds its own engines.

The new engine delivers 90 percent of its whopping 525 lb.-ft. of torque from 1500 to 5600 rpm. The all-new cast aluminum cylinder block has interference-fit cast-iron liners and cross-bolted main caps, and overall sealing is also improved.

Both bore and stroke have been increased over past models, raising displacement volume by 3.5 percent to 505 cubic inches. Block length, block height, bore spacing, firing order, rod length and compression ratio are unchanged.

The Viper V-10 includes a six main bearing crankshaft with increased stroke length and cross-bolted main bearing caps. All-new cast aluminum alloy pistons, weighing slightly less than prior years - despite larger diameter - are included, as are all-new cracked-steel connecting rods that are lighter yet stronger than prior model years.

The engine features a brand new wet-sump oil system with twin, cast-in wing tanks. The bottom of the pan is 3/4-in. closer to the crank centerline, allowing the engine to be lowered in the car for improved weight distribution.

Cylinder heads on the Viper V-10 are redesigned semi-permanent mold (SPM) 356 T6 aluminum, with improved intake port, exhaust port and combustion chamber cooling and sealing. Lower-profile die-cast magnesium cylinder head covers with steel internal baffles and anti-slosh foam are also new for 2003.

A single-piece, central dual-plenum, cast aluminum intake manifold is also new. It boasts shorter runners and a single, non-staged two-barrel throttle body for lower hoodline and higher peak horsepower RPM. The intake manifold is an all-inclusive Integrated Air and Fuel Module (IAFM) with tubular fuel rails, injectors, sensors, wiring and throttle body - delivered assembled and pre-tested.

A lighter weight, lower friction valvetrain is virtually all new, with roller rocker assemblies, single valve springs and larger diameter intake valves.

The exhaust system is comprised of fabricated 1.625-in. diameter tubular stainless steel Tri-Y exhaust manifolds. Each manifold is close coupled to a 1.0-liter catalyst with secondary-1.0 liter door sill catalysts and resonators, and aft of those are dual cross-over pipes with an "H" in the middle ending at tuned side exhaust exits.

Other engine highlights include a new engine oil cooler, a new cooling system with power steering pump hydraulically driven fan, a new air cleaner assembly with dual oval air filter elements, and a new power steering pump and pulley.



http://www.allpar.com/cars/viper/

Clearly an 8.3 liter V10 with today's technology should produce at least 600HP naturally aspirated. The 7 liter Z06 V8 is producting the same HP and only slightly less torque.

Besides, a V8 or V12 sounds much better.

[HEMI x 2]

About a year ago I found some info on the next Viper engine.

"Dodge is working a V10 HEMI. It is just in the developement stages now. Word is from a fellow HEMI club member that works for Chrysler is they are waiting for Chevy to bring out the Z06 and then announce the new V10 HEMI for the Viper to keep that one-up-man-ship on Chevy. Estimated hp for the V10 HEMI is in the range of 700-800 hp"

[MattRobertson]

If you add 300 hp to a Viper you had best put wings on the thing and use ejection seats and parachutes instead of airbags.

Such a thing would *definitely* erase the issues associated with a 40k, 500 hp coupe in the stable (i.e. a 6.4 Challenger).

Do the Viper and Challenger up like that and you pi$$ off Chevy with one and Ford with the other; putting both squarely in the back bleachers. I like it.

[HEMI 05]

It would really piss mustang owners off if the "4.0 se model" was faster than their gt.

[RocketJock]

http://www.autoblog.com/entry/1234000270066570/

Pics of that '70 SRT-8 Challenger...and of the 392 on a stand.

As I understand it, the 6.1 is a 370- so if this has 392 of displacement, they must have meant 6.4 and not 6.1. Nit picking for sure, but just trying to keep myself straight.

And all this talk of Viper motors- have you ever heard one under the hood? It sounds like a sewing machine that's about to come apart! I know a guy that had a 2004 Viper truck and even with an after market exhaust it just sounded weak. Ran strong, but sure didn't sound like it would. Really strange. Anyway- he sold the truck and just picked up his '06 ZO6. Some guys have it rough.

[MattRobertson]

Yeah when driving one I noticed it had a seemingly lightweight raspiness for what it was. Step on it, though, and that is the absolute LAST thing you are thinking of...

[Trouble]

The Viper motor is only 'underperforming' because they have it set up that way.It just didn't need to make more power up until now. Also, V10s just don't sound so nice, especially with those dumbass sidepipes. The center exhaust they put on the older coupes was better and you didn't get your leg burned getting out but still not a sweet sounding v12.
-Trouble

[MCaesar]

They didn't purposely set up the engine to "underperform". They just heavily revised the V10 in 2003 for the 2nd gen. The problem is that it based on the 40 year old technology and can't compete with new designs like the L7.

A hemi based V12 would be a killer.

[TurboAWD]

The 1st gen viper sounds weak because they had dual exhaust..some with side pipes, so standing at either side all you heard was a 5cyl engine. HENCE the new Vipers connected exhaust pipes. You guys hear about the 08 Viper yet? With 720 HP. OH yea....2008 gonna be a pinnacle year for Mother Mopar..even if she re-married a German :)

[MCaesar]

I had to go by the dealer today and luckily they had an SRT8 Charger parked right next to a SRT10. I opened up both hoods and I was shocked at how narrow the V10 is compared to the hemi. Those heads on the V10 look very narrow. They have to be restrictive compared to the 6.1.

[HEMI x 2]

The SRT10 is conventional wedge engine. Valves are side by side instead of opposed to each other making it more compact but also more restrictive.

[sirtate]

don't forget the 'V' angle 90 degrees for the 8cyl, and 72 for the 10, that in itself makes the 10 narrower.

[Black on Black]

Back to the original topic, supposing the LY Challenger SRT-8 engine will be the current 6.1L 425hp variety, the car will still be faster than the LX SRT-8's, because it will be a shorter, lighter 2 door with a 6 speed manual transmission. The manual should provide one less computer controlled component to contend with for mods, too. Could the Challenger SRT-8 be a half second quicker in the 1/4 mile? 13.0s stock?

[shiltz]

I hope they do offer the 5 speed auto as well as the manual in the SRT-8, I definatly plan on trading in my Magnum eventualy for a Challenger and would want to get the SRT-8, but not if it's a manual only.

[Zentenk]

Woo, I was close. I'm so happy that they have shown the R/T to be the 6.1! No V6!!

[MattRobertson]

DC says the thing is running 13 flat, or so I read.

The Magnum concept had a supercharged 425 horse engine, didn't it? I'lll bet what you're seeing is more excitement-builder than production-plan. I'm thinking they'll have the same lineup as the other LX's... and I'm praying I can get some kind of limited special-ed with a 392 in it.

[Meister]

DC says the thing is running 13 flat, or so I read.

The Magnum concept had a supercharged 425 horse engine, didn't it? I'lll bet what you're seeing is more excitement-builder than production-plan. I'm thinking they'll have the same lineup as the other LX's... and I'm praying I can get some kind of limited special-ed with a 392 in it.Please include my name in those prayers, Matt.

I'll do the same for you. :wink:

And I don't care if I'd have to sign waiver stating that the beast would be used "For Off-road purposes Only" to get it - Whatever it Takes.

[MCaesar]

Back to the original topic, supposing the LY Challenger SRT-8 engine will be the current 6.1L 425hp variety, the car will still be faster than the LX SRT-8's, because it will be a shorter, lighter 2 door with a 6 speed manual transmission. The manual should provide one less computer controlled component to contend with for mods, too. Could the Challenger SRT-8 be a half second quicker in the 1/4 mile? 13.0s stock?

Much better than that. Current cars hit 13.2 in mags and 12.8 at the strip

12.5 or less should be the bogey