Some info about Insuring a modded or custom late model car.. NOT FUN!

[JetBlack300c]

This will be a bit of a read so sit down and enjoy..

There is some info here about Custom cars (paint, wheels, stereos, etc) and Insurance and the follies that unfold when you mod a car.

so... once again my 300C is being completely repainted, all related to some retard smacking my car (or in this case vandalism)....


Most might recall the 2 little incidents I had couple weeks ago (getting run off the road and smacking the front of my car, and then the retard backing into the drivers side rear door).

http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=184302 (http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=184302)

http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=184582 (http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=184582)


So last year the car was in need of some TLC some various paint issues as a result of retarded Angelenos and their complete disrespect for other peoples property..

I decided since I had to paint 2/3s of the car anyway to pay a little more and get the whole car done in Matte (aka Flat) Black.

I had contacted my insurance company at the time and inquired about additional coverage to cover the custom paint, as I was told that it would be difficult to match and blend if something ever happened..

Since that time I have been paying an additional amount monthly for the "endorsement" to cover the paint and body work, not much money, but enough..

So few weeks ago I have some issues, I take the car to 2 body shops recommended by my insurance and both tell me they won't touch the car (the shop that originally did the work is out of business, so to speak, the guys I know aren't there anymore and new people are running it).

One of the insurance shops tells me about a custom shop around the corner, so I take the car there, they flat out tell me they will not attempt to match and blend the paint and that the car has to be completely repainted, they write an estimate and send it to my insurance ($9600).

The insurance adjuster comes out and makes an estimate of $3400, and informs me that they will NOT cover repainting the car, even though I have this endorsement that says they will.

I contacted MattRobertson here at LXF because I know he works in the insurance industry, he gives me some advice, which I follow thru with.

first I contacted the Dept. of Insurance in CA and filed a complaint, then I spoke with an attorney.

Then I pulled the car from the shop it was and went to get several other estimates just to point out the insurance company that this is where we are, the car has to be repainted, I paid for additional insurance for this purpose (and I had all the emails back and forth with my Insurance Agent when I added the endorsement, specifically addressing the coverage to be sure this would not happen).

so in the end this is what was discovered:

the endorsement that was added was specific in it's wording for "Classic Vehicles" only with production dates from 1928 to 1968, however my Agent apparently didn't read that part, so the endorsement is not valid on a late model car..

additionally there is verbiage to the extent that if the car is used "primarily" for exhibition or shows it is not covered for vandalism suffered in such an environment.


So the end result.


Since the policy/endorsement was written in error; the Insurance Company is legally required to cover the damage (minus my deductible) according to the Dept. of Insurance (DOI).

So reluctantly the insurance company is repainting the car, however I was "forced" to sign an exclusion which requires that the car be repainted in a standard color (no custom paint) that can be matched and blended in the future or future coverage will be denied.. Basically if I go with Matte Black again, they will refuse to paint the car in future claims..

Additionally they will be sending someone to view the repairs once complete to verify that standard paint was applied or they will refuse pay for the repairs..

Whether or not this exclusion is within their rights has yet to be determined, but the attorney I spoke with advised that I go with this "exclusion" get the car repaired, painted and then change insurance companies. Otherwise I will spend much more in legal fees that the cost of painting the car again myself fighting this matter.

I decided to stay away from Brilliant Black Pearl, never cared for the color, the insurance was non-specific as to me having to use "Chrysler" colors, so I choose Mercedes Jet Black, a non-metallic, non-pearl color, basically a straight deep dark black with no frills..

Easy to match and blend in the event of another mishap, plus the added bonus of being slightly different..


am I happy? NO, I liked my Matte Black Paint, it was a conversation piece everywhere I went, people old and young always commented on it, stopped to look at it, it was different and it stood out without standing out.

But it is what it is, the car is over 5 years old, has near 90,000 miles, has nothing original left on it, has a new motor, new trans, new drive shaft, new rear end, new wire harness, new computers (PCM,FCM), new brakes, new suspension, all warranty (well except the brakes and suspension) and all within the past roughly 6,000 miles and now new paint.. so I have a new 5 year old NEW car..

I've decided to stop modding my 300C after this, leave it as is, just finish a couple of tid-bits that have been sitting in my garage for a few months.

I am moving on to another vehicle to mod, something old pre-1970, and something fun, really want a 2 seater Roadster Convertible of some kind, the few Porsche 356 Speedster Replicas I have looked at have fallen thru, but I'm going to keep looking until I find something..

The 300C is now officially a daily driver, and insured as just another boring ass car on the road..

[cleary524]

holy crap dude! :blam:

[fnkychkn]

wow, Marc. how messed up is that? i loved the look of the matte finish. made your car look like pure evil.

[BIG SMOOTH]

Been 3 years since I first met you on that Chrysler commercial set in LA when your car was the BB color you "adore" ;)

I've been following your story here and offline too and can't believe it has indeed come to this point.

Tha Matte Black was hands down awesome and I'm sorry to see it go though I know how much of a PITA it was to maintain.

Hopefully this "new" color on this old "new" car will still dazzle us all.

I'll be up at your place within the next month or so to see it completed.

BTW, I emailed you back.

[MattRobertson]

Jesus what a mess.

I can pretty much guarantee you, and as we talked about already privately, there is no way they can enforce those repainting requirements on you... if you fight in court you will win... but you will spend your ass getting that win, which is why you did the right thing taking the deal.

But there's no cost associated with reporting them to the CA Dept. of Insurance for doing this. They made their problem your problem. If there is a clause in the settlement saying you can't report them, I'd give consideration to blowing it off, as thats the same thing as a blackmailer getting you to sign a piece of paper saying you will pay the blackmail and never go to the cops.

Drivers of late-model, modded cars are in a serious pickle. There are only a very VERY few mod-friendly insurance markets out there. Marc did everything right. And he still got screwed. Not because the insurance co. is out to cheat people, but because he is outside their box and they just do not expect to be dealing with this kind of enthusiast owner... and they are staffed with people who are *absolutely* clueless as to what the modding hobby is about and what is required to make it right.

/rant

Glad it turned out at least reasonably OK Marc.

[Arixona]

That sucks. Insurance is such a scam.

You got any pics of it while it was flat?

[BIG SMOOTH]

Here's a pic of him towing a trailer :)

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a53/mjeds/Trailer/DSC05099.jpg

[BIG SMOOTH]

Here's another.....


http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a53/mjeds/300C-1/DSC04192.jpg

[Super T]

So, what company will do us right? My replacemeent cost would be close to $80k, I need to get adjusted coverage somehow.

Posted via LXFMobile

[Ron380]

Marc, Sorry to hear about all the trouble you had with this! What a mess! :blam:

I did like the matte black, but I think that Mercedes black is going to look really good too. Do you have any "after" pics yet? I'd love to see it!

Try not to let this get you down for too long, that still one of the nicest cars here! :thumbs_u:

[bklynmag]

Man it sux to read this but glad to see they didn't try to walk away on you.

Any thoughts to some matte black accents on the paint after the insurance company comes out and gives their final approval?

[Magnum P.I]

Here's another.....


http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a53/mjeds/300C-1/DSC04192.jpg

That is truely one sexy ride, but Marc that down right blows to hear what happened.

[ICEChargerRT]

Matt, :sosayweall: Which are the more mod friendly insurance companies and which ones should be avoided by those with modded cars?

[EmagdniM]

That sucks Marc, sorry to hear this...I loved the Matte as well. What if you do the Mercedes black in all the spots it was matte, and put in a matte stripe down the side in place of the stripe you have now? Or is that not an option either?

[redinorange]

made your car look like pure evil.

Pure evil is expensive. Plain old evil? Not so much...

[carchitect]

That is LAME. I hope you are still able to do something creative with what the insurance company lets you do.

11 lbs of awesome looking paint all for nothing... what a shame

[1362#Sublime]

Thats sucks,

I know My insurace (USAA) is cool but even they will do so much,

Anyone that owns a Sublime will tell you its the worst color to color mach.

(thats why they stop makeing it from what I was told)

I had a small front end and rear end hit, and I told the insurace comapany that the whole car would have to be repainted and they said it can be blended, well Lime Green cant! At night you can tell the diff, and I had the adjuster come an see, and they gave me $500 for lose of value becouse it was slightly noticable, they said it was cheaper than repainting the whole car.

[schexy1]

Just a question, but isn't the clear matte? So wouldn't a standard black with matte clear satisfy both parties?

[JetBlack300c]

Just a question, but isn't the clear matte? So wouldn't a standard black with matte clear satisfy both parties?


there are several ways to do Matte, the cheapest and easiest is using 2 stage paint, and the Clear being "Satin" or "Flat" but that doesn't give the look I have, it gives a semi-gloss shiny look.


the other way is to use "Flat" paint, that is paint with no metallic, pearl, or shine. This is accomplished by using a base color and mixing in a "Flattener" which is a chemical process that removes the shine.

this is what I did, and I had no clear on the car, as clear adds a sheen or semi-gloss shine.. I wanted ZERO reflection on the car.

so matching and blending is very difficult if not impossible, because you have to mix the paint EXACTLY as is was mixed the first time (whatever part paint to whatever part flattener).

Hot Rod Flatz the maker of the paint will tell you if you ask, the only way to truly match and blend the paint is to buy extra straight out so that you have it in the event of a mishap..

I did not do this, and I seriously regret it.


----------------------------



as for the other questions about what (if anything) I will do to mod the new paint with Matte highlights, it will be done with vinyl wrap, not paint..

[MattRobertson]

Matt, :sosayweall: Which are the more mod friendly insurance companies and which ones should be avoided by those with modded cars?

So, what company will do us right? My replacemeent cost would be close to $80k, I need to get adjusted coverage somehow.

Posted via LXFMobileThe more mod-friendly ones are the classic car insurers. The problem with them is twofold.


Most of us use the cars as daily drivers. That eliminates our eligibility for this specialty market.
These cars aren't classics. They aren't even considered collectible. The SRT's MIGHT be eventually. But they aren't there yet. As far as I know, I am the only one accepting SRT's into my specialty program.

But again... its tough. The typical LX driver does not fit into the classic car/enthusiast mold. You / we all want to use the cars too much. If we did fit into that mold, I would be a vendor here and trying to sell you guys insurance policies.

What you need (and what Mr.I did not get... not his fault as most insurance companies are like this) is an Agreed Value basis on his policy. Not a Stated Value (which is a scam) and not Actual Cash Value (which is what everyone usually has). Agreed Value says if the car is totalled you get X dollars for it, and you agree to this amount before you buy the policy. That keeps the insurance company from attempting to total out the car for peanuts (which was a big concern in Mr.I's situation) and gets you a no-wiggle-room settlement that you know and understand up front.

Next, you need a custom equipment endorsement (if one is needed, which it was for Mr.I's policy) that doesn't have an escape clause worded into it on what they will pay to fix the car. Mr.I's had a list of three "this is what we will pay" options in the wording, and one of them was translated into English as "whatever we feel like". Moral of that story is to read the policy in advance of buying it. Mr.I did the right thing by buying the extra coverage, btw.

Lastly, specialty companies have a clue when it comes to proper vehicle repair. You wouldn't believe what a windshield costs for an old Gull Wing Mercedes. Try getting the lizard to pony up the five figures it'll cost to do that job. A specialty company expects high repair costs going into the game.

But they trade off the high cost of repair and the guaranteed high payouts with restrictions on your use. If you can't live with the restrictions, you aren't eligible to get in the door (and believe me, we see plenty of smartasses who think they can get away with fudging and forget they are a first time criminal, but we do this stuff every day, all day).

I'm bringing out a new product that will be a little more suited to an LX-type of usage. Higher mileage limits are available, and we are completely mod friendly. Its only available in Florida now but it will be out in CA on November 1. I approved a guy with a T-bucket who had a blower, wheelie bars and a freaking parachute out the back of his car yesterday. The same guy had a tubbed out roadrunner with a full cage that we're doing, too.

But we or any of the other vendors out there won't do every dime you put into the car. You can insure the vehicle for market value, more or less (all vendors who sell this stuff fudge it up some) but, for example, you can drop 200 grand on a rotisserie restoration of an old Porsche 356, but the car may be worth no more than 130. Because thats what you can sell it for. How much it cost to get you to that market value is your problem. Likewise, if you blow 100 grand on a car and put all sorts of trinkets on it... what matters is what that trinketed car will be worth to *someone else*... not what it cost you to build. When you customize a car, you often decrease its value since the car is now your personal idea of perfection and you have to find the one guy who agrees with you and wants to buy your car instead of building one all over again.

Like I said... this is a tough market for us.

[fnkychkn]

thanks for the lesson, Matt.

doesn't matter what kind of info you're looking for, someone on LXforums will know. i love this place. :)

[JetBlack300c]

thanks for the lesson, Matt.

doesn't matter what kind of info you're looking for, someone on LXforums will know. i love this place. :)


yeah, I thought this was rather important for members to know, so that is why I posted my issue and pm'd Matt asking for his input.

[Super T]

Thanks for the breakdown Matt. Not sure Geico will be able to help me much at all after reading that, but I'll give 'em a shout.

[Sharp Charge]

Wow Marc, I'm sorry for the pain in the ass your dealing with!

Matt, thanks for the insurance lesson!

[LIL WAGON]

I just saw this on the net, dont know if you would be interested, but its an alternative to paint.
http://www.iconographystudios.net/about/client-testimonials/seamless-matte-black-wrap/
http://www.iconographystudios.net/wp-content/gallery/jts-matte-black-bmw-project/thumbs/thumbs_newimg_8606.gif

[JetBlack300c]

I just saw this on the net, dont know if you would be interested, but its an alternative to paint.
http://www.iconographystudios.net/about/client-testimonials/seamless-matte-black-wrap/
http://www.iconographystudios.net/wp-content/gallery/jts-matte-black-bmw-project/thumbs/thumbs_newimg_8606.gif

yeah seen it, problem is 2 fold, first you have to have a good paint job under the wrap. second it costs as much if not more than a good paint job..

a Matte wrap around here is $5000 - $7000 and they don't do the door jams.

I looked into it last year before going with the paint.

[S L U G]

oh that blows!! lol you might wanna check around. Ive been looking into flat blacking the maggie here and its not any more than a regular paint job. Nothing excessive anyways. definately not 5-7. there are some good shops around here but it would be a drive. dont let the insurance company push you away from a car you truely like working on. I personally dont like 300's buts your looks amazing. It would suck to see you stop on it!!

[JetBlack300c]

Well a proper paint job is $5000 to $7000 or more so yeah its about the same

oh that blows!! lol you might wanna check around. Ive been looking into flat blacking the maggie here and its not any more than a regular paint job. Nothing excessive anyways. definately not 5-7. there are some good shops around here but it would be a drive. dont let the insurance company push you away from a car you truely like working on. I personally dont like 300's buts your looks amazing. It would suck to see you stop on it!!

Posted via LXFMobile

[bcdavis]

It really depends on your insurance company, and your body shop.

Like when my car with custom paint got keyed, the body shop got paid
a certain amount for the "stock" repairs, but then we used whatever
paint techniques we wanted once the insurance company had paid them.
The bottom line is that the insurance company is not the body shop.
They just pay the body shop. Or pay you directly. So it's all about
what kind of deal you can work with the actual shop. Most of them
will be fine with painting it a non-stock color, as long as the insurance
paperwork says: "Repaint". Not "Repaint with green flames". But some
shops just don't like dealing with insurance claims, and other ones
deal only with insurance claims, and only work with stock vehicles.
You just need to find a shop that can handle both, and is fine with
doing what *you* want, as long as they get paid fairly for their work.

[MattRobertson]

It really depends on your insurance company, and your body shop.
...
The bottom line is that the insurance company is not the body shop.
They just pay the body shop. Or pay you directly.
I have done that myself (take the ins. co. check and then do what I want to fix the car the way I want it fixed; working with the shop to make that happen) and this is correct up to a point. What happens if the insurance company says "You have $14,000 in damage and the car is worth only $15,500 total according to our sources. We total cars out at 85% of value, and your damages exceed the 85% figure. Therefore we are going to write you a check for the $15,500 value of the car. We keep the car and you keep the check. Sure hope you owe less on the car than what we are paying you because you now have to pay off the loan company."

Thats reality when you are talking more than a few bucks in damage. If any custom equipment was declared and covered, the insurance company would not allow that equipment to be removed from the vehicle prior to it being totalled out - since it was insured and covered by the insurance contract. So assuming there were things like a stereo, suspension etc. in there that the insured could sell for thousands of dollars... too bad. The insurance company owns them as part of the salvage value of the vehicle they just 'bought'. They are going to auction off the vehicle with those parts on it and those parts will help them get more of their money back.

Meanwhile, the customer now has no car, and a car loan they have to pay off. In the end they could easily wind up with no money and a skateboard to get to work -- or a car payment for a car that doesn't exist (and a skateboard) -- if they are upside down on the loan.

BTW Mr.I's Actual Cash Value on that car was about what I quoted above. So I am not positing a scenario that is totally blue sky here. His damages weren't at the limit I am mentioning, but they were *very* close to the total-loss trigger of his insurance company. The value they were quoting was arguable, but not indefensible (so a bad faith lawsuit... on that basis alone... would be a tough sell).

So while what bcdavis says is correct whenever a total loss situation is not in the cards


You might be shocked when you find out what Actual Cash Value is on your car, especially when you compare it to what you owe on the car, or what you could sell it on the street for with a little time.
That total loss situation is a lot easier to fall into than you might think given Item 1.

How do you protect yourself from this?

An Agreed Value of $30,000 - lets say, for the sake of argument - will turn a $14,000 loss situation from a total into a must-fix (it won't guarantee a proper fix... but thats a whole other subject). The insurance company cannot fudge the value down for any reason (provided you really get an Agreed Value... again, read the policy... and you'd be shocked at how many auto insurance agents are as clueless as many of you are about this kind of policy). So they are never tempted to lowball the value, pay you off and then make most of their money back on the salvage.

The trick for you all is going to be getting an Agreed Value on an LX.


edit:
Next you want to schedule (list) your custom equipment onto your poilicy, if possible, with an extra-cost endorsement. That endorsement should also insure on an Agreed Value basis (or its probably near-worthless). That way a $7,000 paint job is listed for ... $7,000 and you don't have to listen to an adjuster argue that Earl Schieb can paint that door for $50, so thats all the company will pay. Lastly you should be turning in receipts to back up your claims of value. Our new product thats coming out no longer schedules equipment, but we are still taking in receipts to document that mods are actually on the car, and what they cost, so that when a claims representative sinks their teeth into the file they have documentation coming out of the gate.

[warnercc]

Bottom line in all of this is that INSURANCE COMPANIES SUCK!!!!

1. No vehicle owner ever involved in an accident (even one that is not your fault) ever breaks even. You always get the short end of the stick.

2. There is only one thing that insurance companies do well and that is collect premiums.

End of story.

[done]

Bottom line in all of this is that INSURANCE COMPANIES SUCK!!!!

1. No vehicle owner ever involved in an accident (even one that is not your fault) ever breaks even. You always get the short end of the stick.

2. There is only one thing that insurance companies do well and that is collect premiums.

End of story.

Overall, simpley a foolish statement.

[TTMR]

Bottom line in all of this is that INSURANCE COMPANIES SUCK!!!!

1. No vehicle owner ever involved in an accident (even one that is not your fault) ever breaks even. You always get the short end of the stick.

2. There is only one thing that insurance companies do well and that is collect premiums.

End of story.
Ok, self insure then. The problem isn't the insurance companys it's the fools who defraud them and force them to have the overcomplicated contracts.

[MattRobertson]

1. No vehicle owner ever involved in an accident (even one that is not your fault) ever breaks even. You always get the short end of the stick.

2. There is only one thing that insurance companies do well and that is collect premiums.

End of story.

Lots of things in this world are difficult to deal with. Some are dishonest. Some are incompetent. Some aren't. To say or believe otherwise is foolish.

[FactoryD]

So, Matt, are you saying that if I don't get a written contract with my insurance company declaring that my car is worth what my 2006 Magnum RT plus my, let's just forget about suspension and interior, new $7K+ stroker is worth, that if I total my ride, they can legally keep the motor?

Damn! That was one hell of a sentence. :mrgreen:

Would this normally be a hard thing to negotiate or can I expect to just talk to my insurance agent and be good to go?

Thanks

[MattRobertson]

So, Matt, are you saying that if I don't get a written contract with my insurance company declaring that my car is worth what my 2006 Magnum RT plus my, let's just forget about suspension and interior, new $7K+ stroker is worth, that if I total my ride, they can legally keep the motor?
Not exactly. Lets say you schedule your custom equipment on the insurance policy. And in this case that schedule has on it the item "big fat farking stroker motor with all the trimmings" (I'm paraphrasing). The insurance company charges you an extra $X to cover the value of the motor. You've just added the motor into the total insured value of the car, so if the car is totalled in some catastrophe, the insurance company pays you off and the motor is a part of their salvage value, once they 'buy' the car from you.

You *may* be able to take off of the car things like custom suspension and such... but honestly thats not likely because then you have to replace those suspension items with stock parts. And who is going to do that while the car is sitting in a junk yard?

But lets never mind that part of the equation. Lets just stick to the motor scenario. Where you can get boned is if the insurance company places an unrealistic value on that wrecked car, and then offers you that unrealistic value. The trick, then, is to take that wiggle room out of the equation and the way to do that is to get a policy with an Agreed Value as opposed to the Actual Cash Value that all standard policies have. ACV translated means "we decide what the car is worth and you can try and argue the point with us".

The insurance company isn't trying to screw you. They genuinely have no idea how to deal with the goodies you have on the car. All they will do with it is put the thing up for auction once they pay it off, and you are one guy out of 1000 they have to pony up for in that given day, and you are probably the only one they will see for awhile who has modded the snot out of the car. You have to realize how far out of the norm you are in terms of the general population of people they deal with.

9 times out of 10, the language in a typical policy contract is no-harm-no-foul. But for guys like Mr.I (and all of us pretty much who are reading this) its a total disaster. You really need to be dealing with a policy that fixes your insured value in stone in advance, and with people who work with special and modded cars for a living. Those guys will let you take the car to the shop of your choice and they'll pay what it takes to get the car fixed right... because thats what they do for a living. Thats their niche in the market. To them, the car nut is the norm and not the exception and their reputation lives and dies on that guy being satisfied, because if he isn't he will scream to the heavens on the internet and at shows and that kind of publicity gets around the car community fast and ugly.
Would this normally be a hard thing to negotiate or can I expect to just talk to my insurance agent and be good to go?
Its not normal, but its also not unheard of. BUT also most agents are clueless on this sort of thing. Thats why agents come to us as much as the general public does. They have no idea how to deal with an old Ferrari, or a T-bucket with a blower for that matter. Still, your agent may have some avenues s/he can go down. Watch out for a policy with "Stated Value". Thats often represented as an Agreed Value but its not. Your agent may genuinely believe it is, but it ain't and if you read the policy its obvious... but reading policies isn't an agent's strong suit oftentimes. Been in this business too long to say otherwise I'm afraid.

Start out by talking to your agent. See where it goes from there and keep your eyes open. And do what nobody ever does: Read the policy. All of it. And ask the agent to show you the exact part where it says you are guaranteed a payout.

An Agreed Value says

In the event of a total loss we will pay the Agreed Value

A Stated Value says

In the event of a total loss we will pay the Stated Value or the Actual Cash Value, whichever is less.

(the purpose of a Stated Value is to let you use the value to set how much premium you will pay... it has nothing to do with the payout... it was originally meant for people who want to partially self-insure, and often is mistakenly sold as a form of Agreed Value).

And Actual Cash Value is whatever sources they pull out of their wazoo to justify the value they want to pay you. Sometimes its a good number. Sometimes its not and Mr.I almost got a dose of the latter, firsthand. There are ways to try and remedy that but you do not want to go there unless you are boxed into a corner. What you want is to file a claim report and get a check.

[Illini 300C]

I learned more in this thread than I ever would have thought to learn on my own about insurance. Glad to find this out before I seriously started modding the car.

Thanks Matt!

[FactoryD]

Thank you, Matt, for the way over and beyond what I expected! ;)

[XeenoMorph]

I decided to stay away from Brilliant Black Pearl, never cared for the color, the insurance was non-specific as to me having to use "Chrysler" colors, so I choose Mercedes Jet Black, a non-metallic, non-pearl color, basically a straight deep dark black with no frills..

Easy to match and blend in the event of another mishap, plus the added bonus of being slightly different..


am I happy? NO, I liked my Matte Black Paint, it was a conversation piece everywhere I went, people old and young always commented on it, stopped to look at it, it was different and it stood out without standing out.

After the Black is done and paid for, have it shot with Matte clear coat.... Maybe make some arraingments with the body shop up front, so after the insurance bozo checks it out, they'll finsh it up... I've seen some really nice "flat" finishes just done with clear... JAT..

Rich...

[SRTpete]

Not exactly. Lets say you schedule your custom equipment on the insurance policy. And in this case that schedule has on it the item "big fat farking stroker motor with all the trimmings" (I'm paraphrasing). The insurance company charges you an extra $X to cover the value of the motor. You've just added the motor into the total insured value of the car, so if the car is totalled in some catastrophe, the insurance company pays you off and the motor is a part of their salvage value, once they 'buy' the car from you.

You *may* be able to take off of the car things like custom suspension and such... but honestly thats not likely because then you have to replace those suspension items with stock parts. And who is going to do that while the car is sitting in a junk yard?

But lets never mind that part of the equation. Lets just stick to the motor scenario. Where you can get boned is if the insurance company places an unrealistic value on that wrecked car, and then offers you that unrealistic value. The trick, then, is to take that wiggle room out of the equation and the way to do that is to get a policy with an Agreed Value as opposed to the Actual Cash Value that all standard policies have. ACV translated means "we decide what the car is worth and you can try and argue the point with us".

The insurance company isn't trying to screw you. They genuinely have no idea how to deal with the goodies you have on the car. All they will do with it is put the thing up for auction once they pay it off, and you are one guy out of 1000 they have to pony up for in that given day, and you are probably the only one they will see for awhile who has modded the snot out of the car. You have to realize how far out of the norm you are in terms of the general population of people they deal with.

9 times out of 10, the language in a typical policy contract is no-harm-no-foul. But for guys like Mr.I (and all of us pretty much who are reading this) its a total disaster. You really need to be dealing with a policy that fixes your insured value in stone in advance, and with people who work with special and modded cars for a living. Those guys will let you take the car to the shop of your choice and they'll pay what it takes to get the car fixed right... because thats what they do for a living. Thats their niche in the market. To them, the car nut is the norm and not the exception and their reputation lives and dies on that guy being satisfied, because if he isn't he will scream to the heavens on the internet and at shows and that kind of publicity gets around the car community fast and ugly.

Its not normal, but its also not unheard of. BUT also most agents are clueless on this sort of thing. Thats why agents come to us as much as the general public does. They have no idea how to deal with an old Ferrari, or a T-bucket with a blower for that matter. Still, your agent may have some avenues s/he can go down. Watch out for a policy with "Stated Value". Thats often represented as an Agreed Value but its not. Your agent may genuinely believe it is, but it ain't and if you read the policy its obvious... but reading policies isn't an agent's strong suit oftentimes. Been in this business too long to say otherwise I'm afraid.

Start out by talking to your agent. See where it goes from there and keep your eyes open. And do what nobody ever does: Read the policy. All of it. And ask the agent to show you the exact part where it says you are guaranteed a payout.

An Agreed Value says

In the event of a total loss we will pay the Agreed Value

A Stated Value says

In the event of a total loss we will pay the Stated Value or the Actual Cash Value, whichever is less.

(the purpose of a Stated Value is to let you use the value to set how much premium you will pay... it has nothing to do with the payout... it was originally meant for people who want to partially self-insure, and often is mistakenly sold as a form of Agreed Value).

And Actual Cash Value is whatever sources they pull out of their wazoo to justify the value they want to pay you. Sometimes its a good number. Sometimes its not and Mr.I almost got a dose of the latter, firsthand. There are ways to try and remedy that but you do not want to go there unless you are boxed into a corner. What you want is to file a claim report and get a check.

I applaud you for your excellent explanation; I am a marine insurance broker, and deal with this all the time. Granted, ocean marine is somewhat different from auto, but it's still all property and casualty.

All the magic is in the policy wording. As Matt said, an AV policy will state that the amount on the declaration page is the settlement to the client for total loss.

Read your policy, then ask your agent the hard questions. Make sure that the policy reflects what the agent says.

[JetBlack300c]

After the Black is done and paid for, have it shot with Matte clear coat.... Maybe make some arraingments with the body shop up front, so after the insurance bozo checks it out, they'll finsh it up... I've seen some really nice "flat" finishes just done with clear... JAT..

Rich...

Wasn't an option and car has been done for a couple weeks. I explored all options. Not happy with the decisions my insurance made for me. But happy with the out come of the car. Body shop did an awesome job

Posted via LXFMobile

[Bryali]

Sorry it wasn't what you wanted, and your experience with your insurance company, but at least your car is finished.

[JetBlack300c]

Sorry it wasn't what you wanted, and your experience with your insurance company, but at least your car is finished.


oh I'm happy with what I end up with because the body shop did outstanding work..

I loved my flat, disappointed I was told I couldn't have it if I wanted it covered, but tht's the brakes.. life goes on.

[JonW]

Bottom line in all of this is that INSURANCE COMPANIES SUCK!!!!

1. No vehicle owner ever involved in an accident (even one that is not your fault) ever breaks even. You always get the short end of the stick.

2. There is only one thing that insurance companies do well and that is collect premiums.

End of story.

Overall, simpley a foolish statement.

Ok, self insure then. The problem isn't the insurance companys it's the fools who defraud them and force them to have the overcomplicated contracts.

Lots of things in this world are difficult to deal with. Some are dishonest. Some are incompetent. Some aren't. To say or believe otherwise is foolish.
I think you guys are being harsh on the poster here. You've probably not been on the receiving end of a bad insurance settlement.

Just last year I totalled my 2003 Yukon XL (not my fault). The vehicle was in pristine condition, but due to gas prices last year, all SUV's tanked in value. So the insurance company offers me the average market price for a similarly equipped vehicle (of which I had to get in their face for not including all the options my vehicle had). So I end up with the cash equivalent of the average market price. Great, now I have two options: I can take that money and go buy someone elses used vehicle (except not in pristine condition and not meticulously maintained like mine), or I can put the money towards buying a new vehicle. I don't particularly like other peoples used vehicles when I don't know the history of them, so I ended up buying a new vehicle - with a new payment! :sad:

Having been through this myself, I can agree with the posters statement that you never break even and you come out on the short end of the stick. I would accept that outcome if the accident was my fault, but not when someone else causes it.

On another note... Matt, nice post - good info!

[schexy1]

I think you guys are being harsh on the poster here. You've probably not been on the receiving end of a bad insurance settlement.

Just last year I totalled my 2003 Yukon XL (not my fault). The vehicle was in pristine condition, but due to gas prices last year, all SUV's tanked in value. So the insurance company offers me the average market price for a similarly equipped vehicle (of which I had to get in their face for not including all the options my vehicle had). So I end up with the cash equivalent of the average market price. Great, now I have two options: I can take that money and go buy someone elses used vehicle (except not in pristine condition and not meticulously maintained like mine), or I can put the money towards buying a new vehicle. I don't particularly like other peoples used vehicles when I don't know the history of them, so I ended up buying a new vehicle - with a new payment! :sad:

Having been through this myself, I can agree with the posters statement that you never break even and you come out on the short end of the stick. I would accept that outcome if the accident was my fault, but not when someone else causes it.

On another note... Matt, nice post - good info!

I couldn't agree more. Another example is the rental car. No matter whos fault it is, they give you only so much a day for so many days. You can't go to Avis and Hertz for that amout and Enterprise comes in a few cents bellow the max. But now you have to spring for taxes fees and additional coverages unless you want to take a chance.

Some clown hits you and now you have to pay an additional $10 a day for a downgraded driving expereience. Hopefully the parts needed for your repair aren't on national backorder for several months.

Yes I know, this may not be the case in your state.

[done]

I think you guys are being harsh on the poster here. You've probably not been on the receiving end of a bad insurance settlement.

Just last year I totalled my 2003 Yukon XL (not my fault). The vehicle was in pristine condition, but due to gas prices last year, all SUV's tanked in value. So the insurance company offers me the average market price for a similarly equipped vehicle (of which I had to get in their face for not including all the options my vehicle had). So I end up with the cash equivalent of the average market price. Great, now I have two options: I can take that money and go buy someone elses used vehicle (except not in pristine condition and not meticulously maintained like mine), or I can put the money towards buying a new vehicle. I don't particularly like other peoples used vehicles when I don't know the history of them, so I ended up buying a new vehicle - with a new payment! :sad:

Having been through this myself, I can agree with the posters statement that you never break even and you come out on the short end of the stick. I would accept that outcome if the accident was my fault, but not when someone else causes it.

On another note... Matt, nice post - good info!

So if you had been driving a Prius, whose value was severely inflated at that time, would your story be different?

Buying insurance is just another business decision we all make, an example of personal responsibility. You have choices and the ability to change carriers. Maybe you should shop for the coverage you think you need and not just the lowest price.

[desquirrel]

You are insured to replace your LOSS, not your "pain and suffering" over a loved one.

[JonW]

So if you had been driving a Prius, whose value was severely inflated at that time, would your story be different?

Buying insurance is just another business decision we all make, an example of personal responsibility. You have choices and the ability to change carriers. Maybe you should shop for the coverage you think you need and not just the lowest price.
Why do you always come off sounding like someone just pissed in your Cheerios?

Also, don't make assumptions about me and my coverage and shopping for the lowest price. WTF do you know about me and how I choose to cover my vehicles? If you knew anything about me, you'd know that shopping for the lowest price is not the top criteria for anything I buy.

[MattRobertson]

Having been through this myself, I can agree with the posters statement that you never break even and you come out on the short end of the stick. I would accept that outcome if the accident was my fault, but not when someone else causes it.
Well, we're going to have to disagree here. Your policy is typical of all policies, which do their best to replace your loss with money. And if the car isn't worth any money... well thats that. There's no way to write in intrinsic value into an insurance contract. I could write another book on why, but I'll spare you all :-)

What you have to do in the event you have suffered an intrinsic loss is sue the other guy, and you can do that. In fact, your own insurance company should not have been involved, technically (unless the at-fault party was uninsured). It was the other guy's insurance company who was required to pay out. If you don't like their offer you can take them to court and let 'em have it. It sounds like you let your own insurance company handle it, which they did as a courtesy (and subrogated against the actual at-fault party... thats done a lot).

But if thats what happened, thats the easy way out. IF thats what you did, there was another way to go about it.

Maybe you should shop for the coverage you think you need and not just the lowest price.If the scenario I put forth above is what happened... there's nothing he could have done. The experience is all about how a claims department decides to treat their customer. If your own insurance company is being aggressive about loss control about a loss they will subrogate out to a third party... well, good luck figuring out how to add that into your buying decision... and if you do the information you gather about a company only holds for the area you are in. I see different behavior coming from the same company depending on location.

And if thats not enough, what JonW experienced is what Actual Cash Value is all about. As you say, if it was a car that happened to have gone up in book value, he would have gotten a minor windfall. But he didn't. No insurance policy would be different unless it had an Agreed Value, and that valuation basis is not available for this kind of car -- unless you can find an oddball somewhere that does it, which would be extremely unlikely as Agreed Value would ignore depreciation, which is a reality whether we like it or not. AV is only appropriate for some cars. Not all of them.

[Gdragich]

Just to expand a little on this, my son's 08 Charger got T-boned and was close to a total loss (eneded-up getting fixed-ready Monday). It wasn't that the damage was extensive, just the side doors, but the "economic total" was coming into play as the initial estimate was close to the 80% of book value. We have State Farm and they were really trying to work with me as we had started some mods on his car-added SRT seats, halos, SRT hood, tinted taillights, 22" rims,... They said if we have the receipts we can start negotiating. Well he had bought the seats from Greg-RDRWNR and paid cash. So they were calling them leather seats in the book value and not the $1,000 extra we paid. Had we had a receipt, they would have been able to use that. Since they were SRT seats they could find some option value in the book-so the more you stay with stock, the better. Halos- those are called "owner's choice". They owe you for headlights, not your special glowing headlights. Some mods are your choice of part and not theirs. They owe you a 2008 Dodge Charger-what they insured and will fix it back that way or pay you for it. Kind of tricky on the definitions. Upgraded wheels-no problem, just need the receipt. He was about to do dual exhaust-had that been done, no extra for that-again owner's choice. Same with the SRT hood-it is just a hodd to them. I still had the stock one and was prepared to switch it back if it came to that. You can switch stockers out, but they would want it done immediatley and the replacement must be perfect working condition with no additional damage incurred for the switchover.
Now the good. They had to replace the driver's rocker. I was able to negotiate and have Grip rockers put on in place and pat the shop for the passenger install to match-but half was paid under insurance. Also he wanted to redo the interior in all black, you know Super Bee door panels, etc. Since his driver's side front/rear door panels need replace, scuff plates, lower kick panel, lower dash panel,and lower pillar panel- those are all now the dark slate as tehy will replace any color OK.
So in all it is turning out you can win some and you can lose some.
The main lesson here is KEEP YOUR RECEIPTS!! If something happens: theft, vandalsim, etc. they have to have proof of cost and that you did the mod. Pictures might help in certain situations as well. If you do some extensive mods would need to get the added rider, but make sure everyone is clear on what it will cover.

[MattRobertson]

The main lesson here is KEEP YOUR RECEIPTS!! If something happens: theft, vandalsim, etc. they have to have proof of cost and that you did the mod. Pictures might help in certain situations as well. If you do some extensive mods would need to get the added rider, but make sure everyone is clear on what it will cover.
You got lucky. Obviously that department had a policy of making some extra-contractual allowances for mods. But ordinarily, if you make a mod its all on you UNLESS you notify the company about the mod in advance. Then they have the opportunity to charge you more money to cover the car plus the mods' value you just added, or say "sorry we want out we won't cover you any more."

Not too long ago I talked with a guy on a Corvette forum I am a vendor at and his C6 - recently stolen - had mods on it. He had all his receipts but the insurance company refused to consider anything (including a blower, wheels and a fresh five-figure paint job). And rightfully so. They signed up for a stock Vette. Nobody told them different. A hard lesson to learn.

The trigger point is 'probably' (it is going to vary company by company) whether they would have covered it for the same premium if you *had* told them. Wheels are almost a no-brainer unless you are talking about some crazy expensive forged deals. Even dealers put wheels on cars before they leave the showroom.

If they would have charged you more (especially if it changes the vehicle's performance), they are most likely going to walk away from it. 'owner's choice' is a new one. In 25+ years in the biz I have never heard that. Its all owner's choice for any modification from stock.

[JonW]

Well, we're going to have to disagree here. Your policy is typical of all policies, which do their best to replace your loss with money. And if the car isn't worth any money... well thats that. There's no way to write in intrinsic value into an insurance contract. I could write another book on why, but I'll spare you all :-)

What you have to do in the event you have suffered an intrinsic loss is sue the other guy, and you can do that. In fact, your own insurance company should not have been involved, technically (unless the at-fault party was uninsured). It was the other guy's insurance company who was required to pay out. If you don't like their offer you can take them to court and let 'em have it. It sounds like you let your own insurance company handle it, which they did as a courtesy (and subrogated against the actual at-fault party... thats done a lot).

Actually Matt, I don't disagree with you or the process. I realize the process needs to boil down to numbers without regard for anything intrinsic. However, I still agree with the sentiments of warnercc that no matter what, you never break even. Insurance does not have an emotional or intrinsic value, but people do. You get put in the position of having to get a used vehicle similar to yours or use the money towards something else. So yes, you get paid for the vehicle loss, but there is still the "feeling" that you weren't made whole.

And yes, I chose to go through my insurance and let them subrogate the insurance of the at-fault driver. I don't remember now what his insurance co. was, but it was one of the real cheap cut-rate companies that I did not want to have to personally deal with. The day after the accident they were already calling and trying to get my wife to agree to statements that were contradictory to what happened. We had witnesses and police reports that documented everything so I chose to ignore the other insurance company and only talk with my own. I paid my collision deductible to my insurance and once they fully recovered from the other company, I got that back.

[juanitorus]

Hey Marc, sorry to here that. How come you didn't go with Lexus Special Factory Matte Black Paint color. I seen it the other day building a Lexus LFA model( my new dream car, lol).

[MattRobertson]

... no matter what, you never break even. Insurance does not have an emotional or intrinsic value, but people do. You get put in the position of having to get a used vehicle similar to yours or use the money towards something else. So yes, you get paid for the vehicle loss, but there is still the "feeling" that you weren't made whole.
Yeah in that respect you're right. If you have invested any extra care/feeding into your vehicle that is going to be gone no matter what. I have a daily driver that I'd be fine with getting paid off and replaced. But I have left it utterly stock, too. Just car washes (I got a silver one, having learned my lesson on the black Magnum) and factory service every 13k miles. The Magnum... well, its going onto an Agreed Value policy next year when my driving record clears up. And even if disaster strikes and I get the Agreed Value I will be out zillions of hours of effort and babysitting.

[SDAutoXr]

Great info everyone. THANKS.