GIFO3 Sidebar: MattRoberston's Gibson Header results [Archive]

CoolVanilla

08-21-2005, 02:36 PM

MattRoberston had his headers installed 10/10/05. Download the raw data and reader here: https://mydata.datadepositbox.com/SS/SharedStorage.asp?id=484c2c8725190fa5411926c52ae03 b0d26c5345421b848ad321b00852e94 (https://mydata.datadepositbox.com/SS/SharedStorage.asp?id=484c2c8725190fa5411926c52ae03 b0d26c5345421b848ad321b00852e94)(enter your username, no password is required)

Here is a summary of the results:

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/CoolVanilla/GIFO3/GIFO3_results.jpg

Take a look at this chart. Notice that with the GSM modification turned off, we get a nasty dip in hp and torque when the tranny shifts.
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/CoolVanilla/GIFO3/after_gsm_off.jpg

With the GSM modification turn on, that dip is greatly reduced:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/CoolVanilla/GIFO3/before_gsm_on.jpg

Here they are, overlayed:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/CoolVanilla/GIFO3/overlay.jpg
I could not define separate colors for torque and hp, and between runs. The higher line for a color indicates torque, the lower hp. The point here is just to show the difference the GSM mod made.

And, to show the difference in acceleration. Take a look at the differential up the power curve; looks like an increase of 10/10 or so in some places!
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/CoolVanilla/GIFO3/b4_aft_overlay.jpg

It should be noted that, of the 4 dyno runs with the GSM modification turned on, this is the only one that shows a reduced dip; all others show a similar plot to the stock. I'm not sure why this would be the case, but we'll be checking into this soon.

MattRobertson

08-21-2005, 07:20 PM

At a guess, wheel weight isn't much of a factor if at all on speed. Remember my track times at the first GIFO and the dyno numbers at the second. I was right there with you stock wheel guys on the dyno, and had 2nd-best track time by a teeensy hair :-) ... and my wheels weigh 38 lbs.

EDIT: Now that I have stuck the wheels on a scale I find that what the mfr told me was wrong. They weigh only 30 lbs.

SilverMagRT

08-21-2005, 07:33 PM

If you can't find a loaner Volant, that you can get without shipping, I can put my stock intake on [I'll miss all the added horsepower :)] and ship my Volant to you, I'll pay shipping both ways.

magnumdude

08-21-2005, 10:34 PM

Deanna says "awesome!!"

RTracer

08-23-2005, 03:02 AM

Alright, if this comes together I am definetly comming. GIFO I missed due to not knowing it was in Nor Cal...GIFOPE I missed cause I extended my Florida Vacation..Now this one I really want to make.
Calabahn...Do you still have the 6 disk?

CoolVanilla

08-31-2005, 10:59 PM

All, Josh at HighHorsePerformance has done it again; he and I are currently working together to provide a set of Gibson headers and Magnaflow High Flow cats for this test. I can't say it enough; Josh has gone above and beyond what anyone might hope for from a distributor or vendor. He really deserves your first look when you consider any aftermarket modifications to your LX. I don't have to tell you how important it is to support those that support us; but I do feel like Josh deserves that extra pat on the back. Without his encouragement both verbally and financially, we would not be having this discussion.

Please review the rewritten first post. With the original set of test ideas as well as the addition of MattRobertson's test results, we really stand to gather a ton of good information this go around. We've got a good distance to go, though, financially. Lets make it happen folks!

snickle

09-01-2005, 12:37 AM

Way to go Josh.

I am paypaling money now for the fund.

MattRobertson

09-01-2005, 03:16 PM

Hey all, FYI:

My header install and dyno runs are not a part of any donations you make to GIFO3. Contributions are only going to the CVMobile's runs, where CV will be running his usual rigorous testing on multiple intakes. I planned my install myself and wanted the dyno runs so I had them priced in. Its just a lucky factor of geography (and the fact that I trust the folks at SVS after spending two days there looking at what they do and talking to Bob) that I happen to be doing my install at the same dyno facility that we've been testing at.

If I have enough time I'll also be testing with Fuse 17 pulled (to see if it affects the power dropoff during shifts).

Another point of interest will be the fact that I'm using ultralight 20" rims now. We have dyno runs of my car at GIFOPE running my heavier 18" chromed alloys, and 1/4 mile times with them that both showed I was right up with everybody else in both HP and time. Will be interesting to see if we get any differences on my pre-install runs, where the only difference will be the wheels (and the temp/humidity, but hopefully we can figure out how to correct for that).

So my first run should be useful in determining the affect, if any, of the light wheels. We can compare that to CV's first pre-install run with his somewhat heavier 20" wheels and see if we learn anything useful on that score.

So if you guys were thinking that the bar was a double-set of dyno runs, it ain't. Step up, people. You can't lie to the dyno, and we'll all benefit from this.

CoolVanilla

09-01-2005, 03:20 PM

Thanks Matt. I'll update the original post.

Thanks to Matt's willingness to pay for his dyno tests, we can lower the required fundage. I think we should shoot for $400; that will cover the dyno time and track runs. We're half way there people!

IDSmoker

09-02-2005, 03:36 PM

Matt or CV: Are either of you planning on getting the new GSM Traction/Fan mod done before the dyno runs?

MattRobertson

09-02-2005, 03:46 PM

Matt or CV: Are either of you planning on getting the new GSM Traction/Fan mod done before the dyno runs?maybe. I don't want to be the first one to jump on it. I want to see other installs and testimonials.

jarrod

09-02-2005, 05:02 PM

Do The Nos!!!!!!!

hyperbolic

09-02-2005, 05:50 PM

After two rounds of intake tests I don't see the point of another round. Tests of the just headers and cats would hold some interest.

Good luck with the project anyway.

MattRobertson

09-02-2005, 07:32 PM

After two rounds of intake tests I don't see the point of another round. Tests of the just headers and cats would hold some interest.I think its morphed beyond simple intake at this point. Its more of a general 'breathing' test.

We'll be seeing what happens when you have put an intake and exhaust on, and then toss on the reasonably-priced Gibson headers (both with hi-flow cats and stockers). CV's tests will be with the hi-flow cats so you'll be seeing best-case results coupled to a few intakes, which will be helpful to the various folks out there who have one intake or the other.

From me, you'll see the po' man's install with the stock cats coupled to an intake/exhaust. Just one intake from me.

Plus the both of us will have different wheels, so you can draw some comparisons from that as well. Should be neat. We're coming up with a hell of a lot of standardized info. All coming from the same cars and the same dyno.

BrilliantBlackHemi

09-02-2005, 10:21 PM

The traction mod should do nothing on the dyno since the reading is usually taken in one gear with no gear change. The traction mod removes the engine power drop during gear shifts to make it softer.

bipto

09-03-2005, 01:21 AM

Alright, men - I wanna see what this Gibson group buy is really going to buy me - Paypal is on it's way. Thanks for all of you efforts!

MattRobertson

09-03-2005, 05:05 PM

The traction mod should do nothing on the dyno since the reading is usually taken in one gear with no gear change. The traction mod removes the engine power drop during gear shifts to make it softer.Actually it will. There's no way to lock the Magnum in a gear. I believe there are two shifts involved, with the first one being of minimal effect and the second being... well, everyone in the shop knows when it happens. See if you can guess where it is on this dyno from GIFOPE:

http://foohbar.com/ul/48/dyno_1024.jpg

I'll have to pull my video to see if there really are two shifts in there.

CoolVanilla

09-04-2005, 05:19 PM

The original thread has been updated. There is a pretty good chance we're going to test GSM's new traction modification... (see here: http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=16879). I really wonder how this mod will respond on the dyno and on the track compared to what we've seen. I'll bet ya Bob is gonna love it!

HighHorseman

09-08-2005, 10:50 PM

I'm HighHorseman and I approve these tests.

If you guys haven't contributed to CV's newest test, please do. We're going to be setting him up with some Magnaflow hi-flow cats to test for us and his dyno results along with the Gibson headers will easily show what the results achieved through the changing of the cats will be. Because these tests are completed for the members of this forum by members of this forum, donations are needed to help cover the costs of the testing. I work to provide the parts, but it is the donations from members like you that pay for the testing that provides additional knowledge about these cars and the parts that are on the market for them. I know with recent events that there are much more important places to contribute your funds to, but for you to make a $5 or $10 contribution to these tests, it really does help. CV spends a lot of money out of pocket to bring you these tests and every little bit makes a difference.

Hurst Equipped

09-10-2005, 07:12 PM

are both test cars '05 models? did you try a dyno run on a cold motor?

does the computer detune the motor because the esp knows the front wheels aren't turning (or at least thinks the back wheels are slipping)?

is there a power difference with the '06 sparkplug configuration as compared to the '05s with different firing times?

i hope you get enough donations to get it done. i'm in.

CoolVanilla

09-10-2005, 07:20 PM

are both test cars '05 models? did you try a dyno run on a cold motor? If you're referring to MattR's and mine, then yes they are both 2005 RT's.
did you try a dyno run on a cold motor? All GIFO1 and GIFO2 runs were made at relatively the same temps. However, I think you'll find numbers from a handful of folks that were at the GIFO2 who had "cold" motors. Really, we didn't see much difference at all.
does the computer detune the motor because the esp knows the front wheels aren't turning (or at least thinks the back wheels are slipping)? Experimentation showed the answer to this question to be no. We pulled fuse 17 in some cases and not in others. The overall power numbers were statistically spot on.
is there a power difference with the '06 sparkplug configuration as compared to the '05s with different firing times?This I'm pretty sure the answer to is no. We rewired my 05 in the GIFO2 and actually showed a decrease in numbers. Thats not to say when we did the rewire, our setup now matched an 06. In fact, thats not the case at all (search on this topic and you'll find a ton of info). I don't think any of the cars run in the GIFO2 were '06, but if there was one in there, we again saw no statistical difference between similar setups.
i hope you get enough donations to get it done. i'm in.Me too! Thanks for helping out!

a76marine

09-11-2005, 08:23 AM

I am sending a Paypal payment as we speak, but I have a quick question.

You mentioned the Gibson headers will be installed, but will there be a dyno before the headers go on to verify the gain from this mod? I ask because not only am I one of the members of the GB that Josh put together, but since there were like 20 or 25 people who took part in the GB I am sure they would all like to know as well.

Thanks for any info and for the work you all are doing to inform us owners about our newest (and in most cases most expensive) toys.

MattRobertson

09-11-2005, 11:54 AM

Yup thats planned. I am doing the tests with the stock cats and I will dyno just before the install, and just after. It'll be on the same dyno CV will be running on so we're going to be consistent there.

Farhawk

09-13-2005, 04:34 PM

Guy's (FWIW) I have been running a 180 thermostat for about 4k miles. My unofficial results have been good. I have no fan modification so the engine runs about the same temp as before in stop & go. Out on the highway it runs 183 to 185 in 90+ degree outside temps. There was a few stumbles from the computer the first 30 miles or so since I did not reset the computer. The good thing is that I am convinced I have seen a solid MPG increase on the highway.

MattRobertson

09-13-2005, 04:47 PM

I have a 180-degree t-stat coming from them along with my torque mod, when GSM ships it. Was only $12.99 so I figured what the hell...

Husker

09-13-2005, 10:56 PM

I was wondering how the computer would react to the cooler thermosat...FarHawk, if you do indeed see better milage, would you tell us what it was and what it is now??

thanks

snickle

09-13-2005, 11:01 PM

The computer does post a code about a Thermo that opens to early, the question is does a 180 open that early?

I hope not. I bought one. I will put it in next week after vacation.

MattRobertson

09-14-2005, 12:45 PM

Scott at GSM told me it did not throw any codes. Farhawk, what do you mean by "a few stumbles"? Maybe I should do a battery disconnect?

MattRobertson

09-22-2005, 05:30 PM

Well I just heard from Joshua at HHP, and Gibson let us down and didn't get the headers out in time. I have to cancel my install appointment tomorrow.

They now say they are getting them out today and it will take two days for them to arrive, so Monday I should expect them.

The good news is I have been in touch with Bob Crespo at SVS R&D throughout while Joshua tried to get Gibson to ship. Next Friday, September 30, was still available and that is now the install date.

Let me take a moment to say that I have been on the phone with Joshua at least once or twice a day for a week while he poked, prodded and cajoled Gibson to ship at least one set of headers out so we could get this test install done and reported to everyone. As everyone knows who deals with him, Joshua is a great asset to this community as a vendor and a fellow enthusiast and his extensive efforts are very much appreciated!

On a related note, I've got a 1gb chip in my camera that lets me take a LOT of pictures and 40 minutes of 640x480 video. However I see now that those chip prices are coming down by quite a bit. I think I'll pick up a couple more and do what I can to document via video if they let me under the car during the install.

CoolVanilla

09-23-2005, 08:08 PM

Hi all, thanks to Meister, we'll also be testing the Funnel Ram IV air filter on dyno day. Should be interesting!

MattRobertson

09-28-2005, 12:23 PM

Unfortunately, if you have been following the Gibson group buy thread you know Gibson is having issues. While there is still a chance that I might receive headers in time on Thursday for Friday's install, to be fair to the shop I cancelled my install appt a second time. Rather than go thru this again I won't reschedule until I have the headers in hand. Waah. Boo Hoo :-)

Cabo Mag

09-28-2005, 01:41 PM

Thanks to Gibson, there's been alot of re-scheduling & postponements. I did talk to Gibson yesterday to find out what gives. They gave me another story than they gave Josh. But they did assure me that some orders were to be shipped today. Keep your fingers crossed.
As to using the Breslin locking bolts, I was told they will work fine on these headers, plenty of room to install them. One piece of advice, though, don't lock them until after the 100 mile gasket burn in. Then retorque & lock...

MattRobertson

09-28-2005, 05:11 PM

No kidding... Whaddya know. (about the bolts). Heck I passed on them cuz there was no time left before I got my install. Now I dunno. I had to cancel Friday (Bob said no worries cuz he has plenty of work, so I didn't screw him out of anything over this, thankfully).

I just really hope I will be able to grab *next* Friday for the install before he books it.

Where are those part #'s again? You got the stainless ones, right? Maybe I'll get 'em.

magnumdude

09-29-2005, 12:16 AM

Any idea when this is gonna happen? I am in Mexico over thanksgiving so lets not do it than.....please

MattRobertson

10-05-2005, 11:34 AM

I'm almost afraid to post this given history, but ...

The headers are in Fresno. Somewhere. Fedex Home Delivery is supposed to bring them to my office (Murphy strikes) sometime tomorrow (EDIT: I meant "sometime today". oops). They were supposed to arrive yesterday but the Fedex tracker says "delivery not attempted" (Murphy x 2). I've told Fedex to hold them for my pickup, but Home Delivery uses independent contractors and they don't always report in (Murphy x 3).

Despite this, and the fact I'm waiting on the Breslin bolts, I have scheduled an install for Monday. I should be able to, at worst, mount an expedition and find the headers, and if the bolts don't get here in time I'll use what Gibson sends.

So Monday Oct 10 is the day for Phase 1 of GIFO3.

bipto

10-05-2005, 11:40 AM

Ahhhh... Murphy SUCKS! I HATE Murphy!!

MattRobertson

10-05-2005, 05:36 PM

OK I have headers in hand. Barring a meteor shower or a police chase, a Monday run is a done deal.

By coincidence I also have the GSM mod on hand. Given my personal time constraints (work work work) I'm thinking about having SVS put that in too. This could be done before or after the header install, depending on how confident the shop is that this *will* be done same-day. If we do it before header install then the sequence would be
Install GSM mod
Put the dyno runs off until after the install
Dyno runs:
3 runs with ESP off and GSM mod not initiated
3 runs with ESP off and GSM mod initiated

Install headers
Dyno runs:
3 runs with ESP off and GSM mod not initiated
3 runs with ESP off and GSM mod initiated

Thoughts? I did a lot more watching than I did thinking at the last two GIFO's so I need the collective's eyeballs on this to make sure we're good here.

The sequence above would be the max, with lots of time available to do everything under the sun. Its entirely possible we will skip the GSM install. Its also somewhat possible I will get sick of working over the weekend and tackle this myself.

EDIT: And if anyone is wondering, the point of testing the GSM mod on the dyno is to see whether that gigantic power drop-off in the curve is present when the mod is in place, or if present is it diminished by some measurable, visible amount. Does this assumption have holes in it?

done

10-05-2005, 05:52 PM

EDIT: And if anyone is wondering, the point of testing the GSM mod on the dyno is to see whether that gigantic power drop-off in the curve is present when the mod is in place, or if present is it diminished by some measurable, visible amount. Does this assumption have holes in it?

Matt, you are nothing short of wonderful to be doing this.

Meister

10-05-2005, 05:58 PM

...
Install GSM mod
Put the dyno runs off until after the install
Dyno runs:
3 runs with ESP off and GSM mod not initiated
3 runs with ESP off and GSM mod initiated

Install headers
Dyno runs:
3 runs with ESP off and GSM mod not initiated
3 runs with ESP off and GSM mod initiated

[/list]Thoughts? I did a lot more watching than I did thinking at the last two GIFO's so I need the collective's eyeballs on this to make sure we're good here....EDIT: And if anyone is wondering, the point of testing the GSM mod on the dyno is to see whether that gigantic power drop-off in the curve is present when the mod is in place, or if present is it diminished by some measurable, visible amount. Does this assumption have holes in it?
Good thoughts, one problem: You've (inadvertenty no doubt) doomed the GSM mod to failure by running it only after 3 runs without, in both series. Heat-soak induced power loss is no myth. I'd suggest alternating the runs, one off one on, etc.

And whichever mode, GSM on or off, that you begin the first series with, reverse it for the second.

MattRobertson

10-05-2005, 06:35 PM

Good thoughts, one problem...I'm not sure about that. My thinking behind testing the mod is not that we should be looking at the power numbers. The tranny hooking up faster isn't going to add any HP or TQ to the picture. So heat-soak -- which as we've seen at the prior two GIFOs causes hp/tq to slowly fall off -- is affecting something I hadn't anticipated looking at.

Take a look at this sucker (click to enlarge). Its from GIFO2 and I'll give you one guess where the shift occurred in that run.
http://foohbar.com/ul/48/dyno_200.jpg (http://foohbar.com/ul/48/dyno_1024.jpg)
What I'm looking to see is whether or not we see that chasm in the middle there, or whether perhaps its just a ditch. I'm hoping for a ditch but we'll see.

Make sense?

As for the heat soak issue itself, what CV has done in the past is make three runs, and average those together (speaking of which, I sure hope I can stick him with the job of figuring all the data out once its complete). The way I have the test sequence laid out, we would be testing for HP/TQ on the 'cool' runs, where temp matters most, and the warmer ones where's we're just hoping for a differently shaped curve.

All of this begs the question of validity as I am making this all up. It sounds good to me but if it sounds to you like I've busted into the liquor cabinet say something so we can hash thru it.

hyperbolic

10-05-2005, 06:39 PM

Good thoughts, one problem: You've (inadvertenty no doubt) doomed the GSM mod to failure by running it only after 3 runs without, in both series. Heat-soak induced power loss is no myth. I'd suggest alternating the runs, one off one on, etc.

And whichever mode, GSM on or off, that you begin the first series with, reverse it for the second.

The GSM mod is being tested to see if the shift/power curve is being modified, not if it will affect peak power.

Matt, you haven't addressed using the fan part of the GSM mod, any thoughts on that?

MattRobertson

10-05-2005, 06:43 PM

Matt, you haven't addressed using the fan part of the GSM mod, any thoughts on that?
None until you just brought it up :D Forgot all about it.

The dyno guys have GIGANTIC fans in front and behind the vehicle causing what can only be termed 'significant' airflow (which is why we were all standing in front of them at the last GIFO when it was 106 in the shop).

I'm thinking we don't use the fan at all in this test. I think the guys with EVICs have already established that the fan mod works hard and fast, and that it doesn't do much of anything when the car is moving. But I'd be happy to turn it on all the time? Maybe? I don't have strong feelings on it so if they're out there let me hear it.

Hurst Equipped

10-05-2005, 06:58 PM

hey matt, will you let me know what size tubing they used on the headers. also, did you try a 180 degree thermostat yet. i would like to see if there is power to be gained at a lower running temp.

Meister

10-05-2005, 07:03 PM

...fan mod...doesn't do much of anything when the car is moving...
Concur, Matt. My own personal fear is that for a 1/4 mile run the fan mod On may actually hurt us, stealing current from the ignition system, if you will, thus weakening spark.

A run or two on to see if a difference, either way, shows up might be nice.
-----------------

And you've all convinced me that, given the purposes of this test, alternating runs GSM on/off isn't critical. :)

MattRobertson

10-05-2005, 07:13 PM

hey matt, will you let me know what size tubing they used on the headers. also, did you try a 180 degree thermostat yet. i would like to see if there is power to be gained at a lower running temp.Good question. I do have a 180-degree t-stat but wasn't planning on installing it prior. fnkychkn pointed me to a thread with really nice pics that should get me where I need to be.

Thoughts on that? I was thinking this would be one more variable in the mix and more vars = more uncertainty as to cause/effect.

Meister

10-05-2005, 07:29 PM

Good question. I do have a 180-degree t-stat but wasn't planning on installing it prior. fnkychkn pointed me to a thread with really nice pics that should get me where I need to be.

Thoughts on that? I was thinking this would be one more variable in the mix and more vars = more uncertainty as to cause/effect.
If you've pre-staged some of the new red (DC) or orange (universal) coolant it's a 10-minute job to change it out if you blow off the drain procedure.

However, comma, it does introduce another variable. Maybe best to get your BEFORE tests this time, and do your AFTER the 180 tstat tests next time.

I don't see it as a huge issue either way.

MattRobertson

10-09-2005, 10:26 PM

OK guys. Phase 1 is set to begin tomorrow at 9 am at SVS R & D in Sacramento, CA. It seems there are no further objections to the test protocol I laid out in Post #37, so I'm going with that. I have my headers, Breslin bolts and GSM mod kit already in the car. If you have a concern or question, this is pretty much your last chance to voice it beforehand.

I've got my batteries in the charger and the alarm clock set. I'll gas up later this evening. If anyone is in the area tomorrow, stop by and say howdy.

jarrod

10-09-2005, 10:43 PM

Awesome, thanks. Cant wait for the results!!

da BoMM

10-09-2005, 10:45 PM

You CALIFORNIA guys (and gals) are ALRIGHT!!!

Meister

10-10-2005, 12:15 AM

...Phase 1 is set to begin tomorrow at 9 am at SVS R & D...I've got my batteries in the charger and the alarm clock set....
Thanks for what you're doing, Matt. :-) All the best. :thumbs_u:

magnumdude

10-10-2005, 01:40 AM

I'LL stop by and say hi next Sat at 4......Lets run!!!

CoolVanilla

10-10-2005, 12:49 PM

Are you done yet? Are you done yet? Are you done yet? ;)

I've updated the first thread to facilitate search-ability.

FOAMAVEN

10-10-2005, 04:43 PM

Even just some HP and torque numbers would be great!! :banana: :banana: :banana:

MattRobertson

10-11-2005, 02:38 AM

OK ALREADY! I'M FREAKIN' DONE! Or I should say finished. I am Matt in CA and done is in Tennessee.

Note the time of this post. It is dang late, even accounting for the fact I had a 2 1/2 hr drive back from the shop. The install was a real RSB but I will save that story for the Gibson GB guys in another thread.

This post is preliminary and the only data I have at the moment is dyno printouts and memory. I only want to give you a general idea. Sorry but the install ran really late, and the dyno files will not be sent to me until tomorrow. Hopefully I can con CV into doing his usual thorough analysis for us, for consistency's sake and speed.

Also before I say anything about results I want to thank SVS R&D in Sacramento CA, as they did us all a big favor, which I am personally very grateful for seeing as I was planning on buying them myself :-) :

SVS R&D picked up the tab for all dyno runs today.

-----------------------------------------------------
GSM TORQUE MANAGEMENT MODIFICATION
-----------------------------------------------------
The first order of business was installation of the GSM modification, which was done in a couple of hours. The car went onto the dyno and we ran it first with ''GSM mod not initiated''. This is the control run, and at 75 degrees it was close to 30 degrees cooler than my last run at SVS at GIFO2.

My HP and TQ went down slightly from that previous run, despite the cooler air. Next we ran twice with ''GSM mod initiated''.

The first run did not seem to be so much different, but the second one was dramatic: A huge reduction in the power falloff. Where 'before' dropped down to about 100 hp, 'after' dropped only to about 220. The difference was so great it took us awhile to figure out what we were seeing: The software changed scales on us.

On the 'After' GSM runs we actually scored our best numbers overall. Again it seemed as if one run performed great and the other one not so. But that was just using our ears. I know we all look forward to seeing all 4 "GSM'd" run data.

-----------------------------------------------------
GIBSON SHORT TUBE HEADERS
-----------------------------------------------------
The Gibson headers showed a fairly consistent pattern: Not much in the way of horsepower, but great guns on torque. Taking best-to-best runs (which is NOT the same as averaging all before and after runs together) and comparing them, I showed a gain of about 9 hp... and about 22 lbs tq.

Assuming SOTP has any value: I felt the difference both in uphill acceleration (the car didn't want to downshift when I thought it should have) and straight-line highway ("you can only pass me if I let you, Mr. Ricer"). However I took it easy as if I blew something up it was a long walk home.

So much for the midnight monologue version. Hopefully we'll have data and analysis for you tomorrow.

Meister

10-11-2005, 04:25 AM

Great job, Matt! And one heckuva long day. The entire LX community has much to thank you for. :thumbs_u:

fogey

10-11-2005, 05:01 AM

Great job , Matt. Thanks

Rev.Hammer

10-11-2005, 09:48 AM

WOOEE!!! Lookit me slobber! I am all a-twist waiting on CV's analysis!

CoolVanilla

10-11-2005, 10:22 AM

Great first writeup Matt! I'm really pleased with the torque number you threw out. In my mind, that alone justifies the effort. I look forward to reading your install notes.

By all means, send me the data. I will most certainly do the same analysis I've done previously and post for all to see.

CoolVanilla

10-11-2005, 03:14 PM

The first post has been updated with the results. I'm a bit disappointed. I don't think we can definitively say the headers make much difference, if at all. Matt, when you came up with the 9/22 numbers, were you looking at STP hp and torque?

Edit: ah I bet you got 9/22 by comparing your averages from GIFO2 numbers. Its interesting to see that, even before you did anything you were still showing better numbers than we saw then.

purevl

10-11-2005, 03:50 PM

ugh...i got these going on this thursday...looks like a complete waste of money to me. Might have to sell them an just got long tubes like i should have in the first place. Wonder what gibson will say will these ****ty results.

HighHorseman

10-11-2005, 03:59 PM

I showed a gain of about 9 hp... and about 22 lbs tq.That's definately not a bad gain at all for just the headers without high-flow cats. When we finally have a cat available to test these numbers should double.8-)

MattRobertson

10-11-2005, 04:15 PM

...Edit: ah I bet you got 9/22 by comparing your averages from GIFO2 numbers. Its interesting to see that, even before you did anything you were still showing better numbers than we saw then.Thats exactly right. We were wrapped up in getting the dyno done and moing on to the install and there was no time to sit down and do what you just did, so all I had to go on was GIFO2.

If I were to guess I'd say the temp was a factor insofar as the increased numbers this time pre-headers are concerned.

Damn. I'm pretty unimpressed myself. They *feel* better but we all know what SOTP is worth on a dyno.

So I guess we could be looking at another situation where the headers add a nice sound but nothing else. Thats not what I wanted to hear (no pun intended) although the car definitely sounds... meatier... when coupled up to the Zoomers.

fogey

10-11-2005, 04:46 PM

Mine are going on right now. Matt, it looks like the torque curve was greatly changed by the headers. If the torque comes on in a more usefull range on the street , this mod would still be very usefull to me. Thanks again to you and CV for all the work that you have done on our behalf.

MattRobertson

10-11-2005, 05:10 PM

Yes that would be useful. Are you dyno'ing?

CV, I presume the raw data files aren't up for space reasons? If so let me know and I'll put them up on one of my servers when I get home tonight, and we can link them in for everyone.

FOAMAVEN

10-11-2005, 05:21 PM

Matt and Cv I want to thank you for all your great work!!
I have to admit that I'm depressed with the results, first the breslin bolt being useless and the poor gains for the headers. For 2HP and 3 foot pounds of torque it's not worth installing and then have to pay to re-torque every 6 months.
Still hoping an error was made somehow, and better results will show up. I would like to see Gibsons dyno report with 22HP and 27 foot lbs of torque. :sad:

HighHorseman

10-11-2005, 05:51 PM

...first the breslin bolt being useless...??????? Can someone please fill me in??? I see nothing about it in this thread.

FOAMAVEN

10-11-2005, 05:56 PM

??????? Can someone please fill me in??? I see nothing about it in this thread.Check the "Gibson headers installed" thread

HighHorseman

10-11-2005, 05:59 PM

I just found it, lol. Thanks! That's a dissapointment especially with a large volume of these bolts scheduled to be delivered tomorrow, lol. I'll have to speak with Breslin.

purevl

10-11-2005, 06:05 PM

lets see the stock a/f ratio and what the headers a/f was

what people dont relize are these cars are pig rich and headers lean out cars...most of the gains people are seeing are from a/f change...not headers. With no way of tuning them it will be hard to prove.. just some more depression for you

MattRobertson

10-11-2005, 06:07 PM

Still hoping an error was made somehow, and better results will show up.Boy does that ever sound familiar (from GIFO1 and GIFO2) :(

I would like to see Gibsons dyno report with 22HP and 27 foot lbs of torque. :(I think before we take a shot at Gibson we should ask them to comment on what it is that makes our tests different from theirs. i.e. "what are we doing wrong, and how did you do your tests? As in what equipment? Did you do one run or a series of them and average the results? Were they on the same day to eliminate as much variance as possible? blah blah.

Before we lump Gibson in with the likes of other manufacturers who avoided answering questions, lets just ask them what they think and hope they come through.

Cabo Mag

10-11-2005, 06:31 PM

Boy does that ever sound familiar (from GIFO1 and GIFO2) :(

I think before we take a shot at Gibson we should ask them to comment on what it is that makes our tests different from theirs. i.e. "what are we doing wrong, and how did you do your tests? As in what equipment? Did you do one run or a series of them and average the results? Were they on the same day to eliminate as much variance as possible? blah blah.

Before we lump Gibson in with the likes of other manufacturers who avoided answering questions, lets just ask them what they think and hope they come through.

Ditto....

fogey

10-11-2005, 06:49 PM

I have to find a place to get the dyno done. I will let you know.

FOAMAVEN

10-11-2005, 08:19 PM

This might be a time for Josh from HHP to step in and ask both Breslin and Gibson for help.

CoolVanilla

10-11-2005, 08:23 PM

CV, I presume the raw data files aren't up for space reasons?Not at all. I had to run to a job site still there). I'll get th raw data up this eve.

MattRobertson

10-11-2005, 08:55 PM

This might be a time for Josh from HHP to step in and ask both Breslin and Gibson for help.Well, unless Breslin is already manufacturing a wider-flange bolt, they are clean out of the picture. And GIFO is not a Josh/HHP thing, its an lxforums.com member thing.

By that I do not mean to muscle out Josh but to a)give the guy a break as he went thru hell on that buy and b)we as consumers who belong to a large communal buying group are running the show. LXforums.com members, with CoolVanilla standing out for starting out and running the show, have put these tests together, funded them, thrashed out the protocols, hashed thru the results, re-funded and re-tested etc. etc.

We be it and its up to us to press this, imho.

FOAMAVEN

10-11-2005, 10:21 PM

Well, unless Breslin is already manufacturing a wider-flange bolt, they are clean out of the picture. And GIFO is not a Josh/HHP thing, its an lxforums.com member thing.

By that I do not mean to muscle out Josh but to a)give the guy a break as he went thru hell on that buy and b)we as consumers who belong to a large communal buying group are running the show. LXforums.com members, with CoolVanilla standing out for starting out and running the show, have put these tests together, funded them, thrashed out the protocols, hashed thru the results, re-funded and re-tested etc. etc.

We be it and its up to us to press this, imho.I'm not putting any blame on Josh in anyway, but as a consumer who bought a product with expected results that did not materialize, I want to know why. I purchased the products through Josh who has a closer relationship with these manufacturers then we do, and should be able to get answers. It's not a pressure or fault thing it's a relationship thing and chain of command thing. Follow the money.
By the way I have nothing but respect for you guys and do not wish to start anything. Since I purchased these products through HHP I'll suggest my concerns with him.
Thanks

jarrod

10-11-2005, 10:46 PM

I just wanted to say thanks for what you guys did. This may be depressing results for some people and I would be that person when I bought these awesome looking products claiming 20+ horsepower. Let me just say thanks for doing these test and helping us guys that couldn’t really afford these products but would have missed a meal or two to purchase them.

I want everything/product claiming all these horsepower and have spent the money in the past without getting desired results but unable to just say “I did not get 20+ horsepower, I want my money back”

You CoolVanilla, have saved me at least 850 dollars to date, with these posted reports.

I thank you very much.

CoolVanilla

10-11-2005, 11:10 PM

It sounds cliché, but this always has been and continues to be a group effort. I just happen to be the tall guy that everyone see's first ;) But seriously, without the members who financially supported these tests, without those members who lent their hardware for months at a time, without vendors like MoparSuperCenter and like Josh who not once but twice supported these tests with hardware contributions (and who is working on a third hardware contribution), without these forums to post our results, without the expertise of folks like Bob at SVS R&D... all these folks have come together to help shed a ray of light on this aftermarket world.

Lets not give up on these headers yet. I kinda think that they might just mature over a couple hundred miles. I'm working on a way to have my headers installed, dyno'd and then dyno'd a couple hundred miles later. I'm not holding my breath, but maybe, just maybe, there is something to a "burn in" with these guys.

jarrod

10-11-2005, 11:30 PM

I Truly believe what you just said, with the programmer I do believe are beast “hemi”W/these MODS are be able to take all the free flowing air and make it just awesome. I did not want to come across that these products do not do anything, just that you/these results have saved some of us that really couldn’t afford it some money. Only because we are impulsive and want the best for are cars.
Thanks again and when we get are programmer or something that will burn this free flowing air, trust me, these MODS will come due to your guys hard work.

67alecto

10-11-2005, 11:46 PM

-----------------------------------------------------
GIBSON SHORT TUBE HEADERS
-----------------------------------------------------
The Gibson headers showed a fairly consistent pattern: Not much in the way of horsepower, but great guns on torque. Taking best-to-best runs (which is NOT the same as averaging all before and after runs together) and comparing them, I showed a gain of about 9 hp... and about 22 lbs tq.

Thanks for being the one to blaze this trail for us fellow LXers. Can you clarify what you meant by the gains of 9hp and 22 ft-lbs?

When I look at the chart, I see gains of 2hp and 3 ft-lbs (runs 1 and 2 vs 5 and 6):

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/CoolVanilla/GIFO3/GIFO3_results.jpg

RobAGD

10-11-2005, 11:47 PM

Well I am now shopping for a shop to do my install and i am hoping that I can find one that can also Dyno, I haven't gotten base numbers before I did the Zoomers but I really like some numbers for the header install.

We have a few shops around here that do "performance" work but I would like to find a rice shop that is use to dealing with newer cars not the true race car kinda shop that might over muscle something.

Something else I am looking at is an A/F data logger, I saw a few of teh Evo's at teh track with them and they are stand alone units that you end up plugging into the old laptop to get the data BUT they have a nice current A/F read out so you can see whats going on as you actually running at the track.

-Robert

HighHorseman

10-12-2005, 12:27 AM

Something else I am looking at is an A/F data logger...Here's a great one:
http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products.php

In other news, I'll be speaking with Gibson and Breslin and I'll let you guys know what I find out.

MattRobertson

10-12-2005, 12:50 AM

Can you clarify what you meant by the gains of 9hp and 22 ft-lbs?Yes, and I already did. Read post #59 and #62.

CoolVanilla

10-12-2005, 01:13 AM

Raw data now available. Please see the first post in this thread.

Meister

10-12-2005, 01:30 AM

Thanks yet again, CV, for this very important pioneering you're doing for the entire LX community. :loser:

It's highly appreciated. :thumbs_u:

CoolVanilla

10-12-2005, 02:06 AM

Guys, is there any major objection to bypassing the 18" vs 20" rim comparison? I think we'll be able to see any differences by comparing my GIFO2 and 3 runs. The problem I have is the stock rims currently have no place to be other than my front room. And, as loving as my wife is, she has decided that the black rubber and brown brakedust just doesn't go with the beige leather.

If there are no major objections, I'll go ahead and pass them on to their new owner and do a good job on the numbers to help show any potential difference.

CoolVanilla

10-12-2005, 02:34 AM

Assuming we're all good with using the GIFO 2 and 3 numbers to derive 18" stocks vs 20" aftermarket rims, I'd like to propose the following schedule:

Part 1)
I'd install my headers 10/21. At that time, I'd plan on the following:

1) Dyno, GSM mod off, K&N Aircharger installed
2) Dyno, GSM mod on, K&N Aircharger installed
3) Install headers
4) Dyno, GSM mod on, K&N Aircharger installed
5) Dyno, GSM mod on, Funnel Ram IV installed
6) Dyno, GSM mod on, stock air box

Part 2)
Then, I'd like to bring it back a week or so later (28th?) for a retorque of the bolts (have Bob tell me if they really needed it, or if they were still tight). Then, we'd run a single dyno set. The idea here is to see if these headers respond better after a couple hundred miles. This I'm trying to schedule for the last part of the day, as we will probably plan to head to the track for some timed runs that evening.

Part 3)
Time TBD. I'd head up to SVS yet again for the high flow cats install. At that time I'd have them retorque a third time (see how badly they needed it), dyno before the cats, and then after.

What do we think? Good test procedure? Good timing? I think if I can pull this off, it would go a long way toward understanding how well these bolts will stay put, what kind of gains we might expect after they've been run for a few hundred miles, and what gains high flow cats might yield.

done

10-12-2005, 09:06 AM

Rev.Hammer

10-12-2005, 09:15 AM

I object too!! This is flagrant case of mandamus obius which violates the witnesses prima facae right to a speedy writ of corpus delecti and what the HECK did I just say!?!?!
Move to strike due to insanity, your Honor!
(stumbles out of courtroom in bright orange Tickle Me Elmo footie pajamas)

MattRobertson

10-12-2005, 10:18 AM

Sounds great. The bolts taking with the anti-seize on is a real good question. I'm trying like hell right now to get into a shop before Friday for a retorque.

Cabo Mag

10-12-2005, 10:57 AM

CV, your scheduled tests sound great. I especially think that part 2 is essential in getting a fair read on these mods....

CoolVanilla

10-12-2005, 01:34 PM

Upon further reflection (read: After some friendly arm twisting) I've decided that it really is in the best interest of science to proceed with the 18" vs 20" test as previously planned. I'm not looking forward to swapping these out at the track... when it gets closer, I'll try and organize another M&G at the track. Hopefully someone can bring a floor jack and/or torque wrench to aid in the process...

Meister

10-12-2005, 01:46 PM

..Hopefully someone can bring a floor jack and/or torque wrench to aid in the process...
CV, the same 12V electric impact wrench that should be a mandatory tool in any LXer's trunk will make short work of the lug nut drill. I'd send you mine, but Murphy would strike for sure if I did. :)

(Anyone ever tried breaking your wheel lugs loose with the factory tool?)

CoolVanilla

10-12-2005, 01:55 PM

CV, the same 12V electric impact wrench that should be a mandatory tool in any LXer's trunk will make short work of the lug nut drill. I'd send you mine, but Murphy would strike for sure if I did. :)

(Anyone ever tried breaking your wheel lugs loose with the factory tool?)Great point M. I guess I need to go buy... erh... I mean grab outta my toolbox, yeah thats it, my impact wrench. :waah:

MattRobertson

10-12-2005, 03:19 PM

I've heard scary stories about impact wrenches torqueing wheels down too hard, so when you put the torque wrench to them you hear the instant click and may not realize you are overtorqued.

I have a nice torque wrench that goes everywhere with me. A Husky brand set to the 110 lbs my wheels are supposed to require. A husky I got at Home Depot for about $65. Goes in the under-floor cargo area in case I ever get a flat. Breaking lugs loose with it is a snap, as the wrench is like 2 1/2 feet long or something.

HighHorseman

10-12-2005, 04:25 PM

I'm still waiting on a call back from Gibson. We're working on getting a new rep since our last one no longer works for Gibson.:doh:

bipto

10-12-2005, 04:31 PM

I'm still waiting on a call back from Gibson. We're working on getting a new rep since our last one no longer works for Gibson.:doh:
Reeeeeeeally... Well I hope the door didn't smack him on the a$$ on the way out...

Oh... shoot - did I say that out loud..? :shock:

67alecto

10-12-2005, 06:30 PM

Yes, and I already did. Read post #59 and #62.

Yeah, I saw those, but when you said:

If I were to guess I'd say the temp was a factor insofar as the increased numbers this time pre-headers are concerned.

Damn. I'm pretty unimpressed myself. They *feel* better but we all know what SOTP is worth on a dyno.

It threw me for a loop.

MattRobertson

10-12-2005, 06:48 PM

It threw me for a loop.ah I see what you were getting at now. "increased numbers" were the few extra baseline bits I got this time versus back at GIFO2, which basically soaked up most of what I had thought was gain from the headers. I was thinking the only thing different was the weather.

HighHorseman

10-12-2005, 08:26 PM

I spoke with Gibson and haven't been able to get any dyno sheets just yet, I'm still working on them. I spoke with one of the other reps, not our new rep, and he said that their dyno results for just the headers, also the results that they advertise though I'm not sure where these advertisements are posted, were 8 horsepower and 19 ft-lbs of torque. This shows that the interpretation of Matt's results are consistant with Gibsons. For a naturally aspirated engine, using the stock cats which I expect are causing the gains to be lower than what many of you expected because the stock cats are not allowing the headers to reach their full potential, that's still not bad at all. I'm in no way let down. Now to work on the last major restriction, the cats.

Magnaflow has said that they plan on releasing a direct replacement but it won't be until the second quarter of next year because they have so much on their plate. I have a stock header system due in this month from Beast once he installs his Dynatechs and we are going to be using it to model our direct replacement Magnaflow converter set up. Once we have the set in it won't take very long for us to do the work up and get CV a test set.

I'm curious if we should add a whole 'nother step in the GIFO and that would be once we have the converters ready to dyno a car with the converters and no Gibson headers in addition to CV's dyno with headers and cats.

Breslin is the next topic I will address. I didn't have a chance to call them today but I should tomorrow afternoon.

Meister

10-12-2005, 09:17 PM

...For a naturally aspirated engine, using the stock cats which I expect are causing the gains to be lower than what many of you expected because the stock cats are not allowing the headers to reach their full potential, that's still not bad at all. I'm in no way let down. Now to work on the last major restriction, the cats...
That certainly may be the case, Josh, and I certainly hope your expectation is correct.

That was not the case with the recent tests of an SRT8 with Kooks/GSM headers and Magnaflow hi-flow cats:

The Kooks/GSM headers alone show a quite respectable 27rwhp and 36rwtq gain on an otherwise pure stock Magnum SRT8.

Adding the Magnaflow hi-flow cats added only 7rwhp with virtually no gain in torque.

Let's hope the significant differences in the 5.7L engine from the 6.1L will provide for a greater gain from hi-flow cats.

FOAMAVEN

10-12-2005, 10:25 PM

maneval69

10-12-2005, 10:29 PM

It would have been nice to see the charts in the same scale.
Why where they different?

CoolVanilla

10-12-2005, 10:44 PM

It would have been nice to see the charts in the same scale.
Why where they different?man, the charts are automatically generated by the viewer software. I invite you to download the raw data and viewer via the link found in the first post. You can then see the data in chart format and import it into excel if you wish to enforce a consistent scale. You can also overlay the runs if you wish...

I think the two charts actually show dramatic effect of the GSM mod pretty well. However, again, I find it very interesting to note that of four runs made with the GSM mod engaged, only one (the shown chart) showed the minimized drop. The other three showed graphs that were nearly identical to non GSM engaged runs.

purevl

10-13-2005, 09:57 AM

Josh the trouble is the 8 horsepower and 19 ft lbs were an admitted mistake, the actual numbers were 2 horsepower and 3 ft lbs.

what? I dont think there was a mistake...matt can you chime in here

CoolVanilla

10-13-2005, 10:39 AM

what? I don't think there was a mistake...matt can you chime in hereMatt will surely clarify, but when he made the hp and torque gains claims, he was referencing dyno runs from a couple months earlier to compare with the after header numbers. If you review the chart in the first post, you'll see that when compared to runs made just before the headers were installed, the hp and torque numbers show minimal improvement. The chart shows the numbers we ought to focus on.

purevl

10-13-2005, 11:32 AM

Matt will surely clarify, but when he made the hp and torque gains claims, he was referencing dyno runs from a couple months earlier to compare with the after header numbers. If you review the chart in the first post, you'll see that when compared to runs made just before the headers were installed, the hp and torque numbers show minimal improvement. The chart shows the numbers we ought to focus on.

thanks for clarifying this, so they put out pretty much jack **** for power...great. Mine are being put on as we speak

CoolVanilla

10-13-2005, 11:38 AM

Lets not be too hasty. They don't appear to show any immediate benefit. However, it *might* be that the LX needs some mileage with the new setup to adjust properly. Historically, we've shown that not to be the case, but we must be fair and give the benefit of the doubt.

Josh is attempting to contact Gibson. Lets stay tunes and listen to what they have to say.

MattRobertson

10-13-2005, 01:12 PM

what? I dont think there was a mistake...matt can you chime in hereWhat CV said. Read posts 98 and 99, which in turn reference a couple more posts.

The actual gains were within the statistical probability of error for the dyno, so rather than saying this is a gain of 2 hp and 3 ft lbs., it could very well be zero (or, if the dyno error is in the other direction, maybe a little bigger gain, to be fair). Its worth noting this dyno has a MUCH lower error range than, say, a DynoJet.

Also you guys noted the difference in scale for the two graphs. The scale is changed by the software automatically so you get a full-screen curve, but there is a setting in the WinDyn reader that allows you to manually set the scale and force it to a 0+ scale, which, when you do that, makes the matched curve stand out all that much more. The difference really is amazing, but as CV says it was inconsistent. Unfortunately work has eaten me up and I haven't had time to go out and SOTP test this mod further.

One thing that worries me is I hear no chime when I
engage it, and I have a permanent ESP/BAS light on. I haven't had the time to do a battery disconnect. Anyone seen this?

CoolVanilla

10-13-2005, 01:33 PM

The first post has been updated with a third chart; its an overlay of the first two. This should demonstrate the difference pretty well.

Matt, I assume the recal of the ESP sensor did not fix the issue? Can you confirm for us that the GSM mod "turned on" correctly for the dyno runs? The issue you're currently having showed up AFTER the dyno runs were complete? If not, could that explain why only one of four runs showed any difference?

fogey

10-13-2005, 02:12 PM

bipto

10-13-2005, 02:39 PM

First day with headers on . Sounds great with Borla 112s. SOTP : It seems to pull better when I floor it now . Before , it sometimes acted like it didn't know what to at first , then it took off like a bat out of hell. Now it just takes off. The installer left the battery cable off over night , maybe that's what helped. Time will tell. Hopefully these mods will come into there own when a good programer comes out for our cars. I've been getting ready for over a year.
Thanks for posting fogey. Glad to hear you give the thumbs up to the Gibson header / Borla cat-back combo - that'll be me in about a week! :thumbs_u:

So how did it change? More volume, or just deeper / throatier? I guess what I'm really looking for here is, "Will it still pass the wife test??"

MattRobertson

10-13-2005, 02:45 PM

Matt, I assume the recal of the ESP sensor did not fix the issue? Can you confirm for us that the GSM mod "turned on" correctly for the dyno runs? The issue you're currently having showed up AFTER the dyno runs were complete? If not, could that explain why only one of four runs showed any difference?No the recal didn't do it, and I still haven't had the time to disco the battery.

I can't confirm it turned on. Bob did the runs and as you know its kinda noisy in there. No telling if he heard the chime or would recognize it. I know it doesn't chime now but I haven't had the chance to get out and see if I can smoke the tires. The fan mod certainly works, and it doesn't appear as if I am throwing codes (using the key-turn bit).

The ESP/BAS showed up as soon as I climbed into the car after the install. However it did that after the last set of dyno runs, so I assumed at first it was a byproduct of the dyno again and would go away on the drive home as it did before.

Meister

10-13-2005, 03:57 PM

...I know it doesn't chime now...

The ESP/BAS showed up as soon as I climbed into the car after the install. However it did that after the last set of dyno runs, so I assumed at first it was a byproduct of the dyno again and would go away on the drive home as it did before.
You should get the chime, every time, Matt, with the initial activation of the tm switch on any given ignition key cycle, along with the ESP/BAS light. As the ESP/BAS light will then remain illuminated regardless of the position of the GSM tm switch, until you've cycled the key to any position to the left of On, you'll not get another chime until the next time you activate the GSM tm switch with the key once again in On.

Thus if you're not getting the chime along with the ESP/BAS lights something isn't reliably wired or grounded, or a switch is faulty. This may well be the very reason that the dyno pulls only showed the GSM mod greatly reducing power drop at shift point on one of the runs.

Also, the car's stock ESP OFF button should be engaged (skid icon showing) any time the GSM tm switch is On (ESP/BAS showing) to achieve full effectiveness. Was this, in fact, done for the dyno tests?

Cabo Mag

10-13-2005, 04:02 PM

So how did it change? More volume, or just deeper / throatier? I guess what I'm really looking for here is, "Will it still pass the wife test??"

I'm running the same system, & my wife wouldn't had known unless I told her.
My ears hear a little more throatier...

MattRobertson

10-13-2005, 04:41 PM

Thus if you're not getting the chime along with the ESP/BAS lights something isn't reliably wired or grounded, or a switch is faulty. This may well be the very reason that the dyno pulls only showed the GSM mod greatly reducing power drop at shift point on one of the runs.Thats the conclusion I am coming to as well. Damn!

Meister

10-13-2005, 05:06 PM

...Damn!
Dittos, Matt.

And do you know for sure that the ESP OFF button was activated (skid icon on) on every run which was testing the effectiveness of the GSM tm mod?

MattRobertson

10-13-2005, 06:09 PM

I was in the Mission Control room and not looking over Bob's shoulder, but he has done dozens of dyno runs in Magnums (GIFO1 and 2) and I would be mighty surprised if he missed this, especially since all runs were made with ESP off.

Meister

10-13-2005, 06:21 PM

...all runs were made with ESP off.
Thanks. Guess I missed that caveat somewhere.

It is worth double-checking each run though, as, unlike the tm switch, the ESP OFF button resets to disengaged when the ignition key is cycled.

MattRobertson

10-13-2005, 08:24 PM

I don't *think* you can do a dyno run at all with ESP on. CV would know.

CoolVanilla

10-13-2005, 08:45 PM

Well I'm scheduled for 10/21. Here is the plan:

1) Dyno, GSM mod off, 20" rims and tires, K&N Aircharger
2) Dyno, GSM mod on, 20" rims and tires, K&N Aircharger
3) Dyno, GSM mod on, 20" rims and tires, K&N Aircharger
4) Dyno, GSM mod on, 18" rims and tires, K&N Aircharger
5) Install headers
6) Dyno, GSM mod on, 18" rims and tires, K&N Aircharger
7) Dyno, GSM mod on, 18" rims and tires, K&N Aircharger
8) Dyno, GSM mod on, 18" rims and tires, Funnel Ram IV
9) Dyno, GSM mod on, 18" rims and tires, stock air box

Matt, can you break away late afternoon? Maybe we can throw your's back on the dyno and see if mileage makes any difference at all.

If I can coax some help in the evening (swapping the 18" and 20"), we can plan to head to the track. Matt, I'd love to see you there... maybe we can convince gotls1 to run both our cars. Run mine with the 18" first, we can swap them with the 20" while she runs your Mag, then she'd run mine again?

Just throwing out thoughts. Any comments?

MattRobertson

10-13-2005, 10:12 PM

Next Friday? Definite maybe. I want to make it up there as well. Don't know if time is going to allow it though. I would love to make it to the track, especially.

gotls1

10-14-2005, 11:14 AM

I should be able to make it to Sac next Friday, but we'll see. Our office got broken into last weekend, so it's been a real $#^% storm around here lately.

Dood

10-15-2005, 12:07 AM

Hi Guys, sorry for the newbie question but why do you go all the way to Sac? Are there no dynos in the Bay Area?

I should be able to make it to Sac next Friday, but we'll see. Our office got broken into last weekend, so it's been a real $#^% storm around here lately.

Hemi31

10-16-2005, 10:43 AM

I have a question.If our air box does a good job pulling in outside cool air,has anyone tried mating an aircharger style tube and filter to a stock airbox and if so any results?

CoolVanilla

10-16-2005, 11:55 AM

Hi Guys, sorry for the newbie question but why do you go all the way to Sac? Are there no dynos in the Bay Area?I'm sure there are quality dyno shops in the Bay Area, but those that I called wanted more money and didn't seem as interested in what we were doing. When I spoke Bob, he made it very clear that this is his passion, that he would love to have us, and that he had no problem diving in and offering help, advice opinions and suggestions. We've gone back and will go back again because Bob and his staff continue to show their commitment to us and their craft.
I have a question.If our air box does a good job pulling in outside cool air,has anyone tried mating an aircharger style tube and filter to a stock airbox and if so any results?We tested these intake methods as a whole. If the aircharger style tube was superior to the stock tube, we should have seen some indication in the first run of the Aircharger intake (before heat soak could take effect). Test after test showed that the stock intake presented more than enough air for the throttle body. A smooth tube just wouldn't have any effect because there is already enough air at the TB.

There have been a few pioneering folks on these boards that have done something like that though. The general feeling I've gathered from reading their posts is that while it sounds better, it probably does little in terms of performance.

Hemi31

10-16-2005, 11:57 AM

Just curious.

FOAMAVEN

10-17-2005, 04:47 PM

I know we were questioning the poor HP and torque numbers from the last dyno report on the Gibson headers. but someone on the 300C forums had a good point. Shorty headers tend to deliver low and mid range torque numbers and may not show a great deal on the max end where the numbers were posted. What really matters is the area of difference along the whole curve not just the top end. with this in mind I tried to down load the files for the dyno run to see if I could see the whole curve. I have an imac and was not able to open the files!!!
Can somebody with the ability to do this please post the dyno runs of the stock as well as the Gibson header runs so that we could compare the curves. This may answer alot of questions about the Gibson headers.
Thanks in advance for any help. :thumbs_u:

IDSmoker

10-17-2005, 04:48 PM

I forgot CV, did you guys determine if removing the "eardrum" helped or hindered the stock intake?

I know I could go back and find the answer myself, but have you noticed how huge those threads have gotten?!?!? <grin>

fogey

10-17-2005, 05:18 PM

I also can't read the files because I have WEBTV . I know you have put a lot of work in them , but I would really like to see the power curves= stock and with the Gibsons. Thanks....

CoolVanilla

10-17-2005, 05:20 PM

Can somebody with the ability to do this please post the dyno runs of the stock as well as the Gibson header runs so that we could compare the curves. This may answer alot of questions about the Gibson headers.Done! Check the first post again; there is a new chart added. There appears to be a slight dip in the accel curve in the pre header run; its subtle, but there none the less.

I forgot CV, did you guys determine if removing the "eardrum" helped or hindered the stock intake?No difference at all. Perhaps a touch louder, but no other decernable change.

CoolVanilla

10-17-2005, 06:55 PM

M&G info up: http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?p=150605#post150605

Anyone able to make it? Post over there if so :)

FOAMAVEN

10-17-2005, 07:45 PM

CoolVanilla...Thanks so much for posting the charts, I feel much better!!!
The high end numbers tell nothing about what the Gibson headers are doing. All the gains are in the low to mid range and they fade out on top end. So the 2HP and 3 ft.lbs. of torque reported at top end do not tell the true story at all! A rough estimate of the chart shows gains of 20 HP and 21 ft.lbs. of torque at the low rpm range, 15 HP and 15 ft.lbs. of torque in the mid rpm range, and tapering off at the top end! This is good news because the gains are in the rpm range used most of all. :thumbs_u: :beerchug: :thumbs_u:

CoolVanilla

10-17-2005, 09:24 PM

Well, at first blush I was gettin all gitty too. But, something just seemed... suspect. Then it hit me; the chart I posted is in terms of Speed (MPH), not RPM. Its a minor detail, but one that we can't ignore (the RPMs might be very different for the same speed thanks to our tranny's, and therefore show a very different power curve). If I use the same two files but compare them in terms of RPM I get a chart I just can't read (thanks, yet again to our lovely tranny's)

I will say, I'm still pretty gitty. This might explain those of us that swear these mods we make just seem to pull harder. FYI I did a comparison between the GIFO1 and 2 in the same manner, and found a whopping 40/40 spread at some points in the power curve due to the Zoomers. Also interesting to note that a similar comparison between intakes show almost no difference it power curvature.

Cabo Mag

10-18-2005, 10:49 AM

fogey

10-18-2005, 11:08 AM

CV; I'm real slow , can you please say why you can't read the rpm comparison charts?

CoolVanilla

10-20-2005, 12:45 PM

CV; I'm real slow , can you please say why you can't read the rpm comparison charts?Sorry fogey, I missed your question somehow.

Here, take a look and I think you'll see what I mean:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/CoolVanilla/GIFO3/HP_vs_RPM.jpg

Because of the dramatic buffering the tranny does before a shift, our graphs get all screwy when put in terms of RPM.

I suppose, after thinking more about it, I could import the raw data into excel and derive a numerical difference that way. Maybe I'll give that a shot with the data we gather tomorrow.