Nitto NT-05: Finally Got Them On The Road Course

[MattRobertson]

Saturday was finally the day when I was able to put my 255/45/20 Nitto NT-05's onto a proper road racing course.

Here's the executive summary of their performance: They sucked.

Thats the short version, and yes I was very disappointed. I read reviews like this one (http://www.timeattackforums.com/forums/wheels-tires/1230-review-nitto-nt05-street-class-tire.html) and this one (http://blogs.popularhotrodding.com/6336473/hard-driving/nitto-nt05/index.html) and I was just about drooling at the prospect of a $200 tire that could give me a semblance of R compound performance. As one guy in the second review linked above put it

...people still demand the smash-mouth grip of an R-compound without the R-compound designation—especially with serious suspensions, big brakes, and stump-pulling power plants. The Nitto NT05 is exactly that tire. Pure. Horse. Poop.

Now, let me say that the NT-05 could very well be all of the wonderful things its cracked up to be on other cars. Maybe the heavier weight of the LX platform is what outclasses it, and this review is unfair to many other applications. But for ours... they suck.

Enough with the adjectives and lets get into a little more specifics. I am comparing my $200 255/45/20 NT-05's with my $300 255/35/20 Bridgestone RE-050A Pole Positions. I am NOT comparing them to my Hoosier R6's, although some of the guys reviewing the tires seem to be going at least in that direction.

"Plant"
The Bridgestones provide a firm, well-planted feel on the track at all times, until you push them past their limit, at which point they slide very predictably. The Nitto's on the other hand never seemed particularly sure-footed. They seemed skittish at all times; as if they were ready to break free at any moment... but perhaps they had already broken free some... it was tough to tell as they seemed to like to move around a lot period. I described my two track sessions to folks who were watching at the track as a little "holiday on ice" and maybe thats the best short-winded description of how well they seemed to plant. And when the Nittos started to slide... well they never started to slide because it seemed as if they were always sliding at least a little. It was just a question of being surprised by sliding more than you figured on. Luckily for me this was a track thats light on concrete walls. I have video of me sliding off track (still on pavement) and straight towards some big orange pylons to illustrate that behavior quite graphically.

"Noise"
The B's make some noise, but only when pushed and the increased noise limit is a good indicator of the approach to your adhesion limit. When I get that video I mention above up, listen to it as well as watch it. Despite the noise reduction I use on the video you should hear quite a lot of tire noise, and that noise is the sliding around I am talking about. If the tires are always squealing you can't tell when they are squealing and sliding dangerously (as opposed to sliding just enough to make you unhappy).


Now, to be fair, with any new tire there is a period where you are unsure of your tire pressures and you have to play around with them some. The trick is to get the wear down to the wear diamonds, so you aren't skidding around thanks to ballooned-out tires that are not using all of their tread, and at the same time not rolling over the sidewalls due to pressure thats too low. I went thru this discovery period on Saturday with the Nittos. I am not counting the parts where I had the pressures too high. I was able to dial them down (surprisingly, you pretty much had to run them at street pressures)... and still they lacked the sure-footedness that the Bridgestones exhibit.

After two 20-minute track sessions of fighting with the tires, faced with a long lunch break and ample time to change my shoes, I opted to abandon the NT-05's despite the fact that this well-paved, no-walls track is ideal for a test-n-tune. I wanted to have some fun and stop fighting the car. Besides, based on the only very mild progress I was getting with wear patterns that were now pretty much on the money... I had lost confidence in these tires as being trackworthy at all.

My lap times immediately jumped by five seconds, although to be fair I switched to R compound rubber -- and the Nitto's can NEVER be put anywhere near that league ... despite what I've read on the internet.

I am signed up for Infineon on May 4. In this economy, you never know if a track day will have enough sign-ups to go off as planned until very near the event date. Nonetheless, my plan is to bring both the Bridgestones and the Nittos and do a same-day head-to-head comparison.

But after driving on the B's for almost two years at maybe 15 events I think I know the answer already. The good news is that the Nittos are if nothing else a cheap street tire that look cool.

[Ron380]

Good write-up Matt. Sorry to hear they weren't what they should have been...

How many miles were on the Nitto's before track day? Both sets of my other (street) tires claimed I should put at least 500 miles on them before "hard" use. Two weeks worth of driving them to work and back took care of that easily enough! I have no idea if that would help with the Nitto's or not...

[MattRobertson]

Lets see... 160 miles from tire shop to home. 160 miles to Sacramento, 70 miles to Sears Point. 150 from Sears Point back home. 160 miles to Sacramento. 85 miles to Thunder Hill.

160
160
70
150
160
85
----
785 miles already on the tires at point of track entry, give or take a few dozen.

EDIT: by way of comparison I've run the Bridgestones with 175 on them without issue (tire shop is in Fresno and I drive home, then 15 miles to Laguna Seca).

[JimIsland-SRT8]

Damn, that was an expensive experiment but you had to try. Matt, have you tried Vreds? I'm thinking with the stiffer side wall they might work for you. They take a little running to warm up but perfrom nicely when heated up. Then again, I don't know Jack about road racing on a course so I'm just asking. I hope you find that perfect tire. :)

[MattRobertson]

Damn, that was an expensive experiment but you had to try. Matt, have you tried Vreds? I'm thinking with the stiffer side wall they might work for you. They take a little running to warm up but perfrom nicely when heated up. Then again, I don't know Jack about road racing on a course so I'm just asking. I hope you find that perfect tire. :)
Don't feel bad for me. I needed street tires to get to/from the track. I was just dreaming that I could go to the track and drive back on the same tires. Thats what the reviewers from other marques who were given advance access to this tire were promising, and maybe thats what they got on their cars. Not ours.

As for sidewall stiffness, you would actually do better to have less stiffness. Thats something that was discussed trackside by people seeing the car skittering around and talking tires with me.

Q: "Maybe the sidewalls are too stiff"?

A: "Well, the 255/45/20 is not an XL sidewalled tire, so there's nowhere to go there."

The Vredesteins haven't been tried, no. Honestly those strike me as more of a boutique tire. Much like Nittos have in the past ... When the tire mfr says that an Italian designer worked up their tread, rather than an engineer (Vredestein says Guigaro, I forget who Nitto used to credit for the NT420S before they shut up about it), I head for the exit.

More to the point of your question, I would trust a tire like that more if I saw someone else using it. Anyone. Nobody uses Vreds on track and there's probably a reason for that that someone else has learned the hard way.

[Ron380]

Matt- check with some of the guys who were running at our track rental in NJ! We had a wide variety of equipment there!

My HTR Z3's were a LOT better than my Yoko's were, but that's also a whole different tire and wheel size, plus going from an "all-season" to a "max-perf. summer" tire. They did pretty well at the 2-day autocross school also, but I want to post up some tread pics for you to look at... mostly good news, I think, but I don't run quite as hard as you do, either!

[magic32]

michelin sport cup or michelin pilot ps2. i am running 275/35/20. and love them. i thought less side wall was better. less sidewall to roll in the turns. you compared a 45 sidewall to a 35 sidewall, am i correct.

[TTMR]

I think WillSRT had Vreds on his red machine in NJ and he was running quite well.

I'm just going to stick with slicks though, the way my BFGs are going I'm a VERY happy camper.


Edit: A thought on the low tire pressures, I guess if you don't stick then you don't need the high pressure to stand up to the G forces! Almost sounds like my Cooper allseason's stick better...

...Apples to oranges, I know

[MattRobertson]

i thought less side wall was better. less sidewall to roll in the turns. you compared a 45 sidewall to a 35 sidewall, am i correct.
So did I at one time. Then I talked to a tire engineer from a major manufacturer, and two more backed him up (Hoosier, then Yokohoma and Bridgestone). Less sidewall means less room to flex. Makes them more likely to come undone off the rims. You can control the flexing of a taller tire (as well as load capacity and tread patch) via tire pressure, and experience has proven this out.

Here's the infamous sidewall pic for the Bridgestones:

http://lelandwest.com/auto-tech/images/ls_120802.jpg

I don't have anything like that for the Nittos but I have shots of the 40-series Hoosiers, which are tires that have WAY less load rating flexing way less as well in the same corner.

[Jontoad]

humm... well.... maybe the 275/40/20s will be different. they sure feel good on the street and are the best tire I've run yet... but i haven't tried the bridgestones either. obviously I'm no where near the avid road racer you are so I'll probably be happy with the nittos. the nt-05s look like they run skinnier than other tire brands, i think i actually should have gotten 315/35/20's for the rear since they run on the smaller side. they sure look smaller than my proxy4's by a large amount so maybe you just didn't have enough rubber on the road at a 255 size. the nt-05's are after all a track-able street tire and not the other way around. that was their target with the tire.

between the NT-05's and the razors edge strut bar it sure improved the handling and highspeed corner confidence on the street 10 fold. I guess ill find out how much i really like the tire in July when i hit gingerman raceway. but im sure they are a big improvement over the proxy4's and other run of the mill street tires I've had at a much lower price than those bridgestones. as a weekend racer that cant afford to have seperate track tires and rims, i think they were a great buy. i made out like a bandit at 150 a piece for them anyways.

[JimIsland-SRT8]

I hear you about no one using them but no one was using Vreds on our cars until someone tried them and word got out quick.
I guess I'm really just curious as to how the Vreds would do in the hands of a "real" driver that could put them through they're paces above and beyond what is safe/prudent for street use.

[MattRobertson]

humm... well.... maybe the 275/40/20s will be different. they sure feel good on the street and are the best tire I've run yet...

Yeah they seemed fine to me too until I hit the track and really hammered them, compared to hard street cornering. I think that the other guys who raved about them on their track cars were not lying. We all have to remember we are driving lead sleds here and momentum and G-forces are a real bitch.

Speaking of momentum, I forgot to mention that with the NT-05's, when initiating braking maneuvers (even relatively mild ones), the tires chirped. They always held, but man thats scary to hear and makes you wonder what you are in for every time you hit the pedal. Especially when you hear nothing from other tires.

the nt-05s look like they run skinnier than other tire brands, i think i actually should have gotten 315/35/20's for the rear Be careful with that. As you may know I sent back a set of 275/40/20's because they wouldn't fit (in the front), and reading Nitto's width numbers, they never would have fit if I had taken time to read them before ordering. Those sizes were comparable to other tires I was looking at.

so maybe you just didn't have enough rubber on the road at a 255 size. Well, if something else is just fine at 255 and the Nittos aren't, thats the tire and not the tire width that I fault. My Hoosiers are 255 too. I'd take wider if they'd farking fit in the front on my stock suspension knuckle and SRT track wheels (or Borbet track wheels). I can fit 275's in the rear but that spoils my tire rotation schedule, which means big money.

the nt-05's are after all a track-able street tire and not the other way around. that was their target with the tire.The Bridgestones are street tires. Just wanted to emphasize I am not comparing the NT-05's to track tires, even though the other tire reviewers that I was looking to when I made my buy decision did that.

They're good, cheap street tires, for sure. Barring a miracle at Infineon I will label them unusable on the track compared to available, proven (and unfortunately more expensive) alternatives. Trust me... the last thing I wanted was to have to keep buying $300 tires. Especially when the Hoosiers are good for only 4 days, it seems.

On a positive note, they didn't wear too bad. About what I'd expect for 40 minutes. Nothing noticeable after a few hundred road miles driving home scrubbed them clean.

[MattRobertson]

I hear you about no one using them but no one was using Vreds on our cars until someone tried them and word got out quick. I guess I'm really just curious as to how the Vreds would do in the hands of a "real" driver that could put them through they're paces above and beyond what is safe/prudent for street use.
You know, there were no track reviews of this tire anywhere by anybody ... until about a month ago (I just looked).

This one just popped up:

http://mbworld.org/forums/wheels-tires-suspension-brakes-forum-sponsored-tire-rack/278022-vredestein-ultrac-sessanta-review.html

Its interesting because these guys drive buses too. All the rest of the commentary everywhere else is street use, that I can see.

I'm about ready for another pair of Bridgestones. If I decide to go that route (as opposed to more Hoosiers) I may try a pair of the 255/35/20 Vreds. Where do you buy them besides EBay?

[JimIsland-SRT8]

I bought my last ones from Moes. His Shipped price for a set was very good and I recieved them as promised. Plus he's a vendor here.
FWIW....I'm running 275s all the way around and have pushed them as far as my comfort zone would allow me. They have been great, but once again apples and oranges compared to the way you'll thrash them.

[dpshook]

do you think that the fact that they are not XL had anything to do with the performance?

[Maistro69]

Well I just picked up a set of NT05's for the rear in the 315 size. I'm using them to get traction on the street, straight line traction that is. Hopefully they will fulfill that obligation for me as I've seen nothing any better offered. I will say that I'll have to do some modding to get them to fit as they are much wider than my 255 Proxes 4's. I'll post pics and results when their stuffed neatly under my wheel well.

[JimIsland-SRT8]

Maistro, are you on stock rims and what are you going to run up front?

[Maistro69]

Maistro, are you on stock rims and what are you going to run up front?

Yes stock rims but I'm haveing the rear widened 2" and spaced out some. Up front I'll keep the stock wheels in stock width and the proxes 4 till they wear out. For track use a custom lightweight wheel with straight slicks, and I'm still deciding on what skinny's to use up front. I had traction issue with the Hoosiers with just a stroker so with the added torque of the blower I'll need all the traction I can get.

[MattRobertson]

do you think that the fact that they are not XL had anything to do with the performance?
The scuttlebutt consensus was that this helped their performance rather than hurt it. And besides I had no sidewall rollover issues, which is where a stiffer sidewall is going to shine, right? Tread wear was perfect and right on the edge of the wear diamonds ... after I got the tire pressure right, but thats something you always have to do with any tire used on a road course.

[dpshook]

wait stop? 315s on a 9inch wheel? u crazy

[Jontoad]

wait stop? 315s on a 9inch wheel? u crazy

no these tires run skinny. the 275 NT-05 is not much wider than a set of 255 f1's i have sitting in my garage. the 275 NT-05s measure over half an inch narrower shoulder to shoulder than my 275 proxy4's which are now on the 20in wheels on my truck. the proxy4's looked squeezed on the rim and these don't. that is what has me thinking a 315 might work. normally i would never put a 315 on a 9in wheel but these seem to run small for some reason. you can tell the proxy's are much wider just looking at them. the NTs are nowhere near as beefy

I'm no noob to tire sizes I've worked in the tire industry for over 8 years now. its not abnormal for different brands tires in the same size to be smaller or larger on contact patch due to the shape of the tire and shoulder.

i have run a 315 M&H drag radial on my Dakota R/T's stock 17x9in wheel before and it was not pinched on the rim because M&H's run small too. there are actually a lot of Dakota R/T guys running 315s on 9in wide wheels for this reason.

[Hemissary]

After the two scrubbings prior to lunch, how long was it between those two sessions? What pressures did you end up at where you saw the same pattern across the entire tread? Should be interesting first time out next session, given they will have been able to sit for a while. Or did you drive home on them?

[Ghostface Mag]

So Matt do you really think for a $200.00 the NT-05(255/45-20) is worth it for street use...I was just looking at this tire the other for the fronts..I have a set of Nitto 555R Drags for the rear and want a nice set of Nitto's tire for the front to match..

[MattRobertson]

After the two scrubbings prior to lunch, how long was it between those two sessions? About an hour. What pressures did you end up at where you saw the same pattern across the entire tread? 40 psi front and 38 psi rear. Remember thats hot pressure, and thats what I would call unusually low for a hot pressure that performs properly. I measured the rears in the garage this evening and they have cooled to 30 psi. This raises a whole new set of questions about tire adequacy with regard to load that I haven't touched upon here yet... but the fact that the tires are not XL rated now factors in as a negative instead of a positive. Should be interesting first time out next session, given they will have been able to sit for a while. Or did you drive home on them? I drove home on them. Nonetheless, since they already had almost 800 miles on them coming into the game, they'd already been heat-cycled. And after that first use they were allowed to sit for a week.

So Matt do you really think for a $200.00 the NT-05(255/45-20) is worth it for street use...I was just looking at this tire the other for the fronts..I have a set of Nitto 555R Drags for the rear and want a nice set of Nitto's tire for the front to match..
I would say definitely maybe. Depends on your goals and climate. They are definitely fun for slinging around street corners when its dry. Someone who launches hard on the street would have to say what they are like in that instance as I only drive hard on the track, where you *never* launch from 0 mph. They definitely are inferior in the rain, for really obvious reasons. If I lived in the PNW a 'no' answer for street use would be a no brainer. If you want long life I doubt they would be your first choice given their 200 treadwear. If you want quiet they definitely have issues. From about 40 to maybe 60 mph they whine... its worst at 50 mph, but seem largely silent otherwise.

But they are only 200 bucks. In a world of $350 tires, thats a bargain. Here in CA where its usually warm and dry, I'd probably pick them. We'll see when I get some more rain time with them. If they stay slippery (told that story in another thread) then no.

[xevilpetex]

Be careful with that. As you may know I sent back a set of 275/40/20's because they wouldn't fit (in the front), and reading Nitto's width numbers, they never would have fit if I had taken time to read them before ordering. Those sizes were comparable to other tires I was looking at.

What about them didnt fit your car?
I had my car pretty low when i went and drove it at NJMSP last month. I had no rubbing or fitment issues with 275/40/20 vredstines on the front.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v239/xevilpetex/trackday101.jpg?t=1239733215

I think you might want to give the 275 vredsteins next time you're you replace tires. I found them to be very predictable around the track.

[RobAGD]

Good review Matt, that is a bummer about them, I was hoping these would make a decent summer use and track day tire....

Oh well....

-R

[Ghostface Mag]

I would say definitely maybe. Depends on your goals and climate. They are definitely fun for slinging around street corners when its dry. Someone who launches hard on the street would have to say what they are like in that instance as I only drive hard on the track, where you *never* launch from 0 mph. They definitely are inferior in the rain, for really obvious reasons. If I lived in the PNW a 'no' answer for street use would be a no brainer. If you want long life I doubt they would be your first choice given their 200 treadwear. If you want quiet they definitely have issues. From about 40 to maybe 60 mph they whine... its worst at 50 mph, but seem largely silent otherwise.

But they are only 200 bucks. In a world of $350 tires, thats a bargain. Here in CA where its usually warm and dry, I'd probably pick them. We'll see when I get some more rain time with them. If they stay slippery (told that story in another thread) then no.


Thanks for the info Matt...

[MattRobertson]

What about them didnt fit your car?
I have an RT, and though I have replaced engine, brakes, suspension :blah: I still have some underlying structural bits left, including the front steering knuckle. You have an SRT which has a different knuckle which provides wider clearance. You can do 275's on stock rims in front. If I try that I run out of room. 255's don't even fit (properly) without 3mm spacers.

[Rob@WretchedMS]

What Bridgestone's were you running, and in what size?

I had looked at the NT05's because of the similar appearance to the REo1R that i've run on the GTO with good success, but since we (Bridgestone) don't make anything to fit my SRT8 other than Truck tires, i was considering going outside to get the Nitto's.

Thank you for your review, i trust your opinion.

[Maistro69]

no these tires run skinny. the 275 NT-05 is not much wider than a set of 255 f1's i have sitting in my garage. the 275 NT-05s measure over half an inch narrower shoulder to shoulder than my 275 proxy4's which are now on the 20in wheels on my truck. the proxy4's looked squeezed on the rim and these don't. that is what has me thinking a 315 might work. normally i would never put a 315 on a 9in wheel but these seem to run small for some reason. you can tell the proxy's are much wider just looking at them. the NTs are nowhere near as beefy

I'm no noob to tire sizes I've worked in the tire industry for over 8 years now. its not abnormal for different brands tires in the same size to be smaller or larger on contact patch due to the shape of the tire and shoulder.

i have run a 315 M&H drag radial on my Dakota R/T's stock 17x9in wheel before and it was not pinched on the rim because M&H's run small too. there are actually a lot of Dakota R/T guys running 315s on 9in wide wheels for this reason.


I just measured my 315 Nt05's and they need an 11" wheel, 10.5 would work but will squeeze them a little. Theres NO way you can put these 315's on a 9" wheel. Not to contradict you and I do agree they run on the small size but not that much.

[dudeiwin86]

i run 315/35/17 hoosiers(the drag radials) on my drag wheels.
i know its not quite road course.. and its not quite 20" wheels...
but it works, and it works damn good.
huge contact patch, good sidewall wrinkle,
ive run them on the street at 35 psi with no problems too ;)

[MattRobertson]

What Bridgestone's were you running, and in what size?

I had looked at the NT05's because of the similar appearance to the REo1R that i've run on the GTO with good success, but since we (Bridgestone) don't make anything to fit my SRT8 other than Truck tires, i was considering going outside to get the Nitto's.



RE-050A Pole Positions in 255/35/20 front and rear. They are stellar as street tires on the track go. If you want some more meat in back try the 275/30/20, but I don't go there due to it torpedoing my rotation schedule. As it stands now, a pair of RE-050A's go about 5 days on the rear of the car. Then they get rotated to the front for maybe 4 more. When the corners wear down I still have some tread in the middle so they go back to the rear for as long as I can get away with. My current rears have 11 days on them and I can tell 12 will be the last... but still 12 track days is incredible.

Since they have never come off the rims, never blown out and last most of a season, I have a hard time experimenting with them for something like the Vredesteins. Given that I have a set of Hoosiers (expensive, wear fast and probably unsafe to use on such a heavy car) the B's are slated to be my rainy day track tires now.

EDIT: Ideal track pressure for these tires is 44 psi hot. Push it to as little as 45-46 and it gets skittery. Less than 43 and it wears into the diamonds. 44 hot is the miracle number and usually that means around 36 psi cold on say a 50-degree day.

...

I talked to a Bridgestone engineer about the RE-01R when it came out and he said "no don't do it". His concern was weight. Thoughts?

I'm a vendor at the annual Porsche Club of America Porsche Parade, which is coming up in late June. All of the major tire vendors there showcase their latest/greatest and I buttonhole the lot of them every year on LX-capable track offerings present and future. I'm planning on at least asking about the new RE-11. What do you think of it? Can it fit on an 18x8.5 in its new 265/40/18 size? Specs say no. I've been eyeballing it.

[MattRobertson]

Hey guys here's a short video of me on the Nittos. Its only 5 1/2 minutes long as I got off the track right after I slid off of it. You'll see. Notable moments:

1:05 - had to give a little jot to the pedal to keep from hitting a decelerating Lotus -- on the slow yellow first lap -- and you can hear the tires squeal. That ain't right. Look for that again on track: straight line squeals.

You hear *little* squeals all thru the tape but in there should be much less sound, even on the first lap on reasonably cold tires. We're going slow.

3:27 - speeding up and LOTS more noise. Lots less than in real life thanks to the camcorder's noise reduction.


4:50 - the car ice-skates its way off the course. No attitude shift. Just slides while its executing the turn and my first clue is when I see I'm sailing off course. Good thing there's no wall. This set the tone for the day as I kept waiting for it to happen again (i.e. no confidence).

126mb WMV widescreen video. Right Click, Save-As and run from your desktop (http://lelandwest.com/auto-tech/magnum/ThunderHill20090411_01a.wmv).

[JimIsland-SRT8]

Man, that was awesome. Thanks for letting ride around the track with you. You're good bro!!

[StnePny3]

Matt, is there a chance that you will be looking into the Brdgestone's RE - 70's or RE - 11's ?

[MattRobertson]

Matt, is there a chance that you will be looking into the Brdgestone's RE - 70's or RE - 11's ?
It turned out the RE-070's are only made in 17" sizes, so even though I was warned away from them by a Bridgestone factory rep, I couldn't use them anyway.

As for the RE-11's, I would only use them if I could put them on my Borbet 18x8.5's using the 265/40/18 size, and that appears to be too wide for that rim. Otherwise I'd have to go with a 245/40/18 IIRC and thats a 25" tire. Too small even for me. Hell the 255/40/18 Hoosiers on those rims now are 26" and lemme tell ya... with a 2" lowering job a 26" tire puts you down lowwwww.

I have to admit the RE-11's are attractive. Just not sized right.

[Rob@WretchedMS]

RE-050A Pole Positions in 255/35/20 front and rear. They are stellar as street tires on the track go. If you want some more meat in back try the 275/30/20, but I don't go there due to it torpedoing my rotation schedule. As it stands now, a pair of RE-050A's go about 5 days on the rear of the car. Then they get rotated to the front for maybe 4 more. When the corners wear down I still have some tread in the middle so they go back to the rear for as long as I can get away with. My current rears have 11 days on them and I can tell 12 will be the last... but still 12 track days is incredible.

Since they have never come off the rims, never blown out and last most of a season, I have a hard time experimenting with them for something like the Vredesteins. Given that I have a set of Hoosiers (expensive, wear fast and probably unsafe to use on such a heavy car) the B's are slated to be my rainy day track tires now.

EDIT: Ideal track pressure for these tires is 44 psi hot. Push it to as little as 45-46 and it gets skittery. Less than 43 and it wears into the diamonds. 44 hot is the miracle number and usually that means around 36 psi cold on say a 50-degree day.

...

I talked to a Bridgestone engineer about the RE-01R when it came out and he said "no don't do it". His concern was weight. Thoughts?

I'm a vendor at the annual Porsche Club of America Porsche Parade, which is coming up in late June. All of the major tire vendors there showcase their latest/greatest and I buttonhole the lot of them every year on LX-capable track offerings present and future. I'm planning on at least asking about the new RE-11. What do you think of it? Can it fit on an 18x8.5 in its new 265/40/18 size? Specs say no. I've been eyeballing it.

I ran the RE01Rs on the GTO, and have the RE11's now, and there is an improvement. They have the same sidewall flex that the RE050A PP does, but hasn't ever given me a problem.

I'm running them on 9" wide rims, i'd like to see what you thought of running the 245/45/18's (26.7") on the 8.5" rim, they have a slightly smaller tread area, but with the side walls being stretched out a bit more it would help with the sidewall flex. I would not go with the wider tire on a smaller rim, i think you'd have issues.

[Ron380]

I'm running them on 9" wide rims, i'd like to see what you thought of running the 245/45/18's (26.7") on the 8.5" rim, they have a slightly smaller tread area, but with the side walls being stretched out a bit more it would help with the sidewall flex. I would not go with the wider tire on a smaller rim, i think you'd have issues.

Hey Rob- not quite the same thing here, but that's the size of the HTR Z3's I'm running on my stock rims. They fit great and are 26.5" Dia. After the NJ Track Day, I did a 2-day autocross school! They've held up very well so far! I have actually been letting air OUT of them, to get the wear down to the markers. For the autocross, I had them at cold pressures of 40 Rear and 44 Front. I'll try to get some pics up soon of the tires- I'd like you guys to see the wear patterns and let me know what you think.

http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii318/jedironin380/Tires5.jpg http://i267.photobucket.com/albums/ii318/jedironin380/Tires3.jpg

Here's the pics! :)

[MattRobertson]

i'd like to see what you thought of running the 245/45/18's (26.7") on the 8.5" rim, they have a slightly smaller tread area, but with the side walls being stretched out a bit more it would help with the sidewall flex. They sound largely perfect EXCEPT for the tread width. You are right on the money about the taller sidewall, and I would like that, and at about $260 each thats not a bad price, but in a world where wide treads are the standard and even 255's are goofily skinny -- on a car that is ridiculously fat and needs all the contact patch it can get -- I don't want to give up so much as a millimeter if I can help it.

Part of my quandary over tires is the fact I have two sets of track rims: A set of 20" SRT wheels that presently have the Pole Positions on them, and the 18" Borbets that presently have the expensive and potentially dangerously underspec'd Hoosiers on them. If I go to an alternative 18" tire I kiss the possibility of running the Hoosiers or any slick completely goodbye. I'm trying to avoid burning that bridge. Which leaves the 20" wheels. Due to their offset and my RT front knuckle, I am stuck at a 255 width unless I want to start taking big risks with wheel spacers, which I don't.

I would not go with the wider tire on a smaller rim, i think you'd have issues.Yeah
That was my conclusion as well. Guess I was fishing for a miracle. Knew it wasn't coming.

Matt, is there a chance that you will be looking into the Brdgestone's RE - 70's or RE - 11's ?Hey did you mean the RE-070R's as opposed to the RE070's? Totally different tire despite the almost identical name.

For everybody's benefit: The RE070R is made specifically for the Nissan GT-R and is available only in that car's front and rear 20" wheel sizes. The rears are crazy wide but the fronts are... 255/40/20. Sounds like a miracle size given the extra sidewall, right?

Trouble is its a runflat. 38 lbs weight vs. the 255/35/20 RE050A's 28 lbs. I am not willing to add 10 lbs of unsprung weight to *each* wheel just yet.

[Chef Tom]

Great Info! I'm for looking a street/strip tire for my SRT8. Could someone summarize everything put that info for everyone to see. For e.g. Vred's, Toyo's, Nitto's etc. I was leaning towards the NT05 or the Nitto Drag Radials. Also, include info on tire sizes as there are choices as whether the car is stock, lightly modded or heavily modded. I was thinking that tire sizes would have an affect on gearing and if you would go through the traps in third gear or fourth. I planning to make a purchase soon and any input would be helpful. I added some of the basic mods and traction on my rsa's is non existant. Please Help. ET's await!

[MattRobertson]

Well, this thread is more about road courses. Ron380's Road Course thread has some comparative discussion of tires, but there's really nothing for strip racing. Chef Tom the one-stop data grid kind of thing you are asking for really doesn't exist; even for road course applications. Something you just have to soak up over time I guess.

On a side note, I had to bail on my May 4 Infineon date, where I was going to be testing the Bridgestones and Nittos side by side. Turned out it was an Advanced day only and I'm not ready for Advanced run groups on that track. Yet.

So I substituted in May 27 at Laguna Seca. You guys know I am familiar with that track. I will be taking another run at my lap record in the Advanced group, but I will also be running the Nittos for at least the first morning session. Thats a track I know so well I don't need a side-by-side run to be able to compare performance. I'd do the comparison, but I can only fit so many sets of tires into the car and the slicks have to be there for the record attempt.

We'll see. If my lap times suck and corners I know very well suddenly turn into lumps of poop, that'll write the epitaph on these tires.

[Ron380]

Sounds good Matt- be careful out there!

I dunno... should you use the Nitto's in the afternoon, when the track is warmer?

[magic32]

remind me why no one tried michelins. sport cups or ps2

[netnathan]

You know, there were no track reviews of this tire anywhere by anybody ... until about a month ago (I just looked).

This one just popped up:

http://mbworld.org/forums/wheels-tires-suspension-brakes-forum-sponsored-tire-rack/278022-vredestein-ultrac-sessanta-review.html

Its interesting because these guys drive buses too. All the rest of the commentary everywhere else is street use, that I can see.

I'm about ready for another pair of Bridgestones. If I decide to go that route (as opposed to more Hoosiers)
I may try a pair of the 255/35/20 Vreds. Where do you buy them besides EBay?


Best deal I believe (everyone seems happy with deal and shipping charges, I think one member paid $670 shipped to Floride):
Call Rich Arrias at Fairmont Tires in LA
(You may be ableto set up shipment direct to your local tire shop.)
323-750-2840


Then there is also:

Sport Compact city (good price but shipping is a little steep):
http://www.sportcompactonly.com/part_pl-9252_p-172429.htm

Group A Wheels (Never dealt with)
http://www.groupawheels.com/ProductDisplay.aspx?ID=a4b0d72d-2e65-42be-bcbd-36f63dcaddb2

Moe's Performance (vendor)
http://moesperformance.com/index.php?main_page=index&manufacturers_id=282


...

[MattRobertson]

Sounds good Matt- be careful out there!

I dunno... should you use the Nitto's in the afternoon, when the track is warmer?I'm not spending cold track time on Hoosiers, which I already know to be a good tire, in favor of the Nittos, which I already know to be borderline at their most charitable description. Besides I have experience running Laguna both summer hot, winter cold and in between. And besides, at the end of May we're talking about warm days anyway.

remind me why no one tried michelins. sport cups or ps2
$402 each for the PS2's takes them out of the sensible realm (add $50 per tire for road force balancing and mounting. More for stems). Sport Cups don't have a size that makes any sense for our cars. Widths are wrong and the aspect ratios are all 25, 30 and 35-series. Not enough load capacity and too short even if you can find a rim that is wide enough to hold them.

[magic32]

how much do you like to pay for tires matt. do you have any desire to try the michelins. i might be able to get you a good deal on some ps2. what sizes do you prefer. will your car take 275 all around or do they rub up front?? i understand the taller sidewall theory. but i don't think 35 is too small. take a book out of some of the fastest, heaviest, best handling cars in the world. very few if any have more than a 35 sidewall. make me understand why we need more sidewall profile

[MattRobertson]

Magic, this is a really complicated subject so I am going to answer your question ... the long way around, I guess you could say. Tire choice has become almost an obsession with me over the last couple of years and I have tried every which way to come up with the best solution despite a boatload of conflicting issues. One thing I have made sure I do is back up my 'research' (read: surfing) with conversations directly with the manufacturers.

i understand the taller sidewall theory. but i don't think 35 is too small. take a book out of some of the fastest, heaviest, best handling cars in the world. very few if any have more than a 35 sidewall. make me understand why we need more sidewall profileI am driving a 4400 lb car. NONE of the best handling cars in the world, as you describe, are anywhere near that weight. Right? Right. Don't go counting the Bentley Continental's tires (their PZero's will fit even though they are 275/35/20) as thats not a track car and its not made to take the lateral g's that a trackworthy car is expected to take on. Same goes for the Porsche Cayenne Turbo. Another big heavy car but by no means meant for track use. Or thos big badass Aston Martin's, which do well but are freaking tanks -- and speed bumps as far as competing with a badass station wagon is concerned. As I've mentioned before, maybe in this thread, I used to be of the opinion that shorter sidewalls meant less deflection and rolling resistance, but as of now three tire engineers from three different manufacturers have corrected me on that, and we have the photos of my car almost taking the tires off the rims to back that up. I would not be calling this theory when people in the business are lining up and saying the same thing, in lockstep.

In fact, Yokohama told me flat out they don't want me running their tires on my car as, in their words, "we would rather you have a failure on someone else's tires". They were scared of the sidewall issue on the 255/35/20 Advan Sport, which is an awesome tire).

Take a look at Post #9. Somewhere I have pics of that same corner with 40-series Hoosiers that show much less deflection, although to be sure they are deflecting as well. At 60 psi (the 35-series are running at 44... 60 - which is manufacturer-recommended - would be too much for them).

You have to remember when you are racing a bus that there are extra things to take into account at every step of the way. Things that change the game. And I think if you do some research on weight and track duty with tire manufacturers' engineers - and be very blunt with them on the intended application - you will start to see what I did: A lot of guys suddenly swimming the backstroke.

Now, I have maybe two dozen days on 255/35/20 tires. Its not like I refuse to use them. I just know they have limits. And since the B's have worked and have a track record of zero failures, that counts favorably for me despite what we see in the pics. I don't think I would risk the Nittos although I probably would trust the PS2's in 255/35/20.

Also the problem with the Sport Cups is not just about sidewall height, although thats bad enough. Its diameter. I would say 26" is a MINIMUM diameter for a track tire for me. TTMR and Ron380 have AWD's so they do not have to worry about dragging their rockers around corners, but I do. So the tire needs to fit on an 18"x8.5" rim AND have a minimum diameter of 26". OR it has to fit on a 20x9" rim and have a minimum sidewall height of 35-series. And be as fat as possible, which for a stock SRT wheel is 255. With the exception of Pirelli PZero's made for the Bentley, 275 widths will rub on the front of my RT steering knuckle unless I use a 3mm spacer, which I won't in a track application.


how much do you like to pay for tires matt. do you have any desire to try the michelins. i might be able to get you a good deal on some ps2. what sizes do you prefer. will your car take 275 all around or do they rub up front??See above on the sizing. I have to have 255's since SRT wheels on RT knuckles limit me to 255/35/20 (if I go 255/45/20 I have to use spacers no matter what). I am paying about $300 per tire if I pick either Bridgestones or Hoosiers. The $200 Nittos look to be a failure on the track but great on the street, if performance is your bag and longevity no biggee. I have a pair of B's that are about done in, and I'll need to replace them in another couple months IF I use them before the next rainy season. The two B's I have with lots of tread could easily be swapped to the rear so I could test out the M's on the front to see if they push, if they wear more quickly etc. Even though B is re-rating the tires at 280 up over the original 140, B insists this is just a marketing move and the tread compound is unchanged.

[magic32]

i think i understand your situation better now. i like the idea of maybe using the michelin up front to try them and using your b's in the back. don't sweat it. i was just trying to help you find a really good tire for your mag. i know the michelins are expensive. i have two days with them. what i like is that you no longer have to wait for the tire to break traction at speeds around turns, you just have to have the balls to keep pushing. what i am saying is that with all the other previous tires i had i would push the car and wait for the tires to break then let off the gas, with the michelins i have to keep pushing the gas and that is scary. i might agree with you that for the street that they may be a great tire but for the track i can undetstand your position as well. good luck with whatever you choose.

i do live vicariously thru you. i wish i could do what you are doing day in and day out. how do you like the end links. should i get them for show or will they help out a little bit.

[Hemissary]

Agreed on the Michelins, if I had money to burn they are what I would use. We went through a set on a Viper this weekend, awesome tires. I think with the mass of our LX platforms, these are about the only tire that would put up and shut-up do'in it...

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z142/Moebius44/th_TrackWkd-04-19-09.jpg (http://s193.photobucket.com/albums/z142/Moebius44/?action=view&current=TrackWkd-04-19-09.flv)

[MattRobertson]

Despite what I have said about safety, and been told about same from Hoosier, I am going with the Hoosiers for dry track tires. Take my advice guys... don't EVER put R compound rubber on your car unless you can afford to keep putting it on. Your driving will be meaningless and no-fun to you if you have to go so much slower as you do on street tires... and the Hoosiers get eaten up about three times as fast it looks like. 3 days. Maybe 4. So my advice to everyone is stay away from the heroin. I am buying another pair of them as soon as we get the big brakes on ... the new speeds possible with the Hoosiers may have caused brake issues, and the fact that ToddTCE gave me a deal on a set of gigantic insulated-piston calipers is a fortuitous coincidence. And they certainly also cracked the rotors faster... and I am running out of gas faster thanks to more WOT... almost 30 gallons last track day.

So there's more reasons to stay off the R compound heroin. Costs you lots more than mere tires.

Can't wait until the GT-R's 255/40/20 size becomes more widespread. That is going to be the *perfect* tire size for 20" wheels.

As for the sway links, I need to update the Big Frakkng Sway Link thread separately, but short answer: They met my needs: Worked and didn't bend. Lets give them the summer and see about bushing longevity. Running Laguna in about a month again so lets see if my times take a dump for no apparent reason. Too soon to tell, basically.

[xevilpetex]

This has probably been covered in the past Matt, but have you ever thought about making your car weigh less then 4400lbs? I know Slideways is running around with a 3950lb srt right now. Im sure you could drop some significant weight with a bit of work. I'm not saying run the plastic lawnchairs that bill is using, but maybe there are ways you could drop a few pounds and open up some tire choices for you.

[MattRobertson]

Oh don't let Cam hear you say that. He's all over me on that one.

I am running without the spare and thats it. One of the things that concerns me is weight distribution. The car was made to be 55/45 front/rear and I'm at least a little concerned about changing that around. Especially the ass end.

I think the problem is more of wheels and wheel wells than it is anything else. You could do 275's or more if you wanted to spend the money on custom rims with a different offset that are wider. And then you could do all kinds of kickass stuff at this weight. Think of a 10" rim in either 18" or 20" and what it could hold. Lou1355 found a nice 18x9 but I'm already committed to the 18x8.5's... not willing to buy a 4th set of wheels.

I could start yanking seats out, but then I am starting to get away from the ... purpose, if you will ... of what I am doing. See, I'm racing a station wagon. Its ridiculous. What kind of a moron does that? Its a pig on wheels.

... oh and it just passed you.

Thats the thing. I am taking something totally unsuited for the task and with a combination of driving skill, tinkering and determination, making it work. Taking the seats out is cheating, with that mindset.

I made a decision when I went this route with this car. I had a choice: Buy a used Porsche Cayman - a phenomenal little track car -- and leave it largely stock since I'd be out of money right off the bat, or I could build a crazy track car out of the station wagon I already owned.

If I hauled ass and turned great lap times in the Porsche, I would be just one of many. You can't swing a dead cat without hitting a fast coupe pilot at the track. But if I am kicking ass in a big bad ass station wagon, I am alone, swimming upstream ... and doing the impossible.

If I could get away with it I'd put a child seat in the back. I wouldn't mind that sports coupe driver seeing the car seat and the baby on board sign as I pass by.



edit: None of what I say above applies to Cam's killer road racing project car. That is going to be unbelievably bitchen.

[xevilpetex]

I can see where you're coming from, but as i think you've said before the magnum isnt your daily driver. Its mostly a track car. If thats the case then why not go ahead and make it safer, lighter, and more comfortable with a nice 15lb track seat?. I remember hearing that one of the pro drivers from our east coast track day saying that while the srt seats were great, he thinks being glued into a race seat with a harness would have helped him drop a few seconds from not having to worry about holding himself in the seat through the turns. Add to that the fact that you would be dropping over 100 lbs out of your ride.

I think regardless of how its set up inside other drivers would still be shocked and awed to have a 16.5ftx6ftx4.6ft station wagon hurtle by them through a corner.

[MattRobertson]

Thing is, if I pull the seats front and rear I'm down to what? 4300 lbs? Four Thousand Two Hundred?

http://foohbar.com/ul/doh_60.gif

What I need is to lose 1000 lbs. Then we're talking. Can't do it on this car... or at least I can't. Wait until you see what it takes to do that. Watch Cam's posts a few months from now.

[Hemissary]

Is there anything about Cam's project posted anywhere? Sounds very interesting!

[MattRobertson]

Its a wrecked SRT with a straight frame. Bought it from a forum member as salvage. He sold off the parts here a few weeks ago. Look for threads started by Cam.

I bought the SRT interior :-)

And honestly, I don't really buy the argument - although I hear it all the time - about shaving time due to getting stuck in the seats. I run just fine in the stockers. Used to it. The SRT seats will be a step up to be sure. When I put in a cage maybe next year (there's more weight right there) I'll do 5-pt harnesses and I'll be glued into them.

[RobAGD]

Matt when you do tha case get a Joie of Racing CF Seat :) http://www.joieofseating.net

heheheh

If you wanted to I could get your car down 500# easy without chopping up anything. Wont be very quite or purdy but it is what it is.....

-Robert

[Hemissary]

Robert I would be very interested to learn what you suggest to reduce mass. Thanks...

Matt when you do tha case get a Joie of Racing CF Seat :) http://www.joieofseating.net

heheheh

If you wanted to I could get your car down 500# easy without chopping up anything. Wont be very quite or purdy but it is what it is.....

-Robert

[Hemissary]

Ah, super(!)...it's another station wagon :^)

Today I found a "Baby on Board" warning sign for the rear of the magnum just for track days, thanks for the idea <hehe>

Its a wrecked SRT with a straight frame. Bought it from a forum member as salvage. He sold off the parts here a few weeks ago. Look for threads started by Cam.

I bought the SRT interior :-)

And honestly, I don't really buy the argument - although I hear it all the time - about shaving time due to getting stuck in the seats. I run just fine in the stockers. Used to it. The SRT seats will be a step up to be sure. When I put in a cage maybe next year (there's more weight right there) I'll do 5-pt harnesses and I'll be glued into them.

[DanRealtor]

Matt, Thanks for the 411 on the Nitto's. I was leaning towards picking up 4 of the 255 NT 05's for my next track day, but after reading your review, I think I'll pass.

My last time at CA Speedway I ran good lap times (1:21's) on Toyo Proxes 4"s and Aaron from Speedventures told me that if I had a good set of stickies I would have been a lot quicker. Like you, I have been limited as far as real "R" compound tires for my stock 20's.

After Meister and Northern Rider both posted up pics of cracked Borbets (presumably from lateral loads) I passed on the 18's. I might have to revisit that as there are suitable "R" compound tires for us in 18's.

While the Toyo Proxes 4's probably didn't give me my fastest possible lap times, they did drive me to and from the track, were very predictable on the track, never came off in chunks like the GY F1's and are pretty reasonably priced.

I did notice that when I went to the SRTTE eons ago, they were ALL running Michelins. Pricey I know, but maybe worth looking at (again).


Thanks again for the info. Laguna Seca in May you say? Hmmmmm.

[MattRobertson]

After Meister and Northern Rider both posted up pics of cracked Borbets (presumably from lateral loads) I passed on the 18's.
Sayyy WHAT?!? Where was this? Links?

Laguna Seca in May you say? Hmmmmm.
May 27 dude.

http://www.trackmasters-racing.com/html/lsir_5-27-09.html

I'm running in Mixed

[TTMR]

I'd like the info on the cracked wheels too!

[MattRobertson]

I looked and didn't find anything. I'm going to be on the phone today looking for some answers.

[RobAGD]

Rear Side air bags #70# ish
Sun Roof 180#
Window Motors 4 @ 7#
Trim Pannels, Carpet, head liner 100# ish
Speakers 6 @ 7# ish
Remove Passenger Seat & Rear Seats 130#
Remove Driver seat 60# add Fiberglass racing seat w/ Mounts +15#

Your stripping out the car, but thats not what Matt wants to do at this point I am sure but it is doable

-R


Robert I would be very interested to learn what you suggest to reduce mass. Thanks...

[MattRobertson]

oh yah I know its doable if you go postal on it :-)

[Hemissary]

<grin> Always good to know, there are items on there I would not have considered, thanks Rob.

[TTMR]

Take the speakers out? Nah, I like passing pasta rockets with Vanilla Ice playing!

[Ron380]

^^ :doh:

[RobAGD]

iPod with fitted Ear buds ;)

If ever loose my mind and really want to go after HemiC's Modifed Football I woudl end up pulling a lot of bits out of the car for a record attempt. He has me by 200# and 25hp so.......

I still would love to find a Rental SE with a killed engine/trans cheap cheap cheap and do what cam is doing. Leave my current ride as is and start having fun with the SE.

-R

[concussion]

You guys make me sick.... With jealousy. I'm working on getting my mag track ready, slowly but surely. A point that I truely apprecaite is that you guys are takng care of the R & D. I hope by next year to be track ready. I'm on a budget, but thngs are coming along well. Power steering cooler is next and then the 1st stage of brake upgrades.

Cheers guys,
Burleson

[MattRobertson]

After Meister and Northern Rider both posted up pics of cracked Borbets (presumably from lateral loads) I passed on the 18's. I might have to revisit that as there are suitable "R" compound tires for us in 18's.
Hey bud, I talked to Meister about the Borbet's and he was emphatic that no such thing happened. He loves the things and his take on them is the same as mine: While we'd prefer a 9" wheel, 8.5" is acceptable and those 9 stocky spokes on a cold-cast wheel is about as strong as they come. Meister said he did some really naughty things to his wheels and they took it and smiled.

I haven't ask NR yet but I did search over on 3CF and the last thing I could find was him recommending them.

You smoking dope out there or something? Can I have some?

[TTMR]

Good to hear about the wheels, Granted I have the Type FS with only 5 skinny spokes, but there is still a lot of meat in there.

[CT-MSRT]

i got a bit worried there about the Borbet TS wheels. I was planning on putting some sticky tires on them in the future and did not like hearing of any problems after all the research i did. Glad to hear it was unsubstantiated.

[MattRobertson]

OK so the May 27 Laguna day was yesterday. It was foggy in the morning and I knew that was a bad time to test any tire, and besides... my experience was so bad last time I was not really inclined to knock myself out for this last chance test.

Nonetheless, late in the day the track was sunny and warm. Pavement nicely warmed up. Conditions were ideal. Because TrackMasters varies the length of their sessions to give drivers longer sessions when conditions are optimal, the final session of the day was a shortened 15-minutes. So I put on the NT-05's for the last run of the day, which is typically a throwaway, wind-down kind of outing. What I call my "I haven't crashed yet and this is my last chance not to crash and drive the car home" session.

So off came the Hoosiers and on went the NT-05's. All day -- in traffic, mind you, I had been running 1:50 to 1:52 pretty consistently, with the slower times being due to traffic.

Well. You guys know I was emphatic in my earlier assessment. I stand by it completely. It was just as bad as I described. Tires with 1000 miles on them, on a warm track, well paved... sucked. Not this time. They were not Hoosiers, but nobody expects that. They were instead quite nicely predictable and, while noisy (again something I would expect - especially from a driver who has been going faster all day long than these tires have any hope of going) they acquitted themselves very, very well. Since it was only a 15-minute session I really didn't have the time to explore them fully and find out where their limits were, although based on the squealing I got pretty close.

Lap times were solid around 1:53, although to be fair a final track session is mighty sparse as many people have broken their cars or just gotten tired and gone home. I had a pretty clear track for the NT-05's and not so with the Hoosiers. Still, Losing only about 2-3 seconds per lap versus what are arguably the most serious road slicks on the market is pretty damn good.

Now... WTF happened at Thunder Hill? I have no idea. As I said then, and reaffirmed above... they sucked. Have I scrubbed more tread off since then, and did that make the difference? Was 1000 miles not enough? Maybe so. One thing I do know is I really liked not having to change wheels AND pack the car at the end of the day. So for my last days' sessions at Infineon in July (doing two days back to back) I will switch to the NT-05's again and do a run with them on that track.

[Hemissary]

Do you think seasoning had any effect? This would become evident next time out I would think...but then your headed to a different track so hard to compare time-wise.

[Ron380]

So, what looked like a quick, one-page review, is now turning into a book with several chapters...

How deep were the treads when they were new? Is this a tire that may require "shaving" for track use?

Do you think they might just be more sensitive to outside air temp's? I don't recall how warm it was when you ran them before, do you think it was just warmer yesterday?

Thanks again for the detailed reports! :thumbs_u:

[MattRobertson]

Hemissary & Ron380:

I have no freaking idea. The tires now have maybe 3000 miles on them. Very little difference in tread depth. All I do with the car is drive it to the shop, drive it to the track, and take it into work on occasion (a 320-mile round trip on smooth highways at 65mph with cruise contol on all the time). Its a very boring life for the car until it hits the race track.

Temp was roughly the same both days. Maybe a little cooler at Laguna. Make that definitely.

[Jontoad]

OK so the May 27 Laguna day was yesterday. It was foggy in the morning and I knew that was a bad time to test any tire, and besides... my experience was so bad last time I was not really inclined to knock myself out for this last chance test.

Nonetheless, late in the day the track was sunny and warm. Pavement nicely warmed up. Conditions were ideal. Because TrackMasters varies the length of their sessions to give drivers longer sessions when conditions are optimal, the final session of the day was a shortened 15-minutes. So I put on the NT-05's for the last run of the day, which is typically a throwaway, wind-down kind of outing. What I call my "I haven't crashed yet and this is my last chance not to crash and drive the car home" session.

So off came the Hoosiers and on went the NT-05's. All day -- in traffic, mind you, I had been running 1:50 to 1:52 pretty consistently, with the slower times being due to traffic.

Well. You guys know I was emphatic in my earlier assessment. I stand by it completely. It was just as bad as I described. Tires with 1000 miles on them, on a warm track, well paved... sucked. Not this time. They were not Hoosiers, but nobody expects that. They were instead quite nicely predictable and, while noisy (again something I would expect - especially from a driver who has been going faster all day long than these tires have any hope of going) they acquitted themselves very, very well. Since it was only a 15-minute session I really didn't have the time to explore them fully and find out where their limits were, although based on the squealing I got pretty close.

Lap times were solid around 1:53, although to be fair a final track session is mighty sparse as many people have broken their cars or just gotten tired and gone home. I had a pretty clear track for the NT-05's and not so with the Hoosiers. Still, Losing only about 2-3 seconds per lap versus what are arguably the most serious road slicks on the market is pretty damn good.

Now... WTF happened at Thunder Hill? I have no idea. As I said then, and reaffirmed above... they sucked. Have I scrubbed more tread off since then, and did that make the difference? Was 1000 miles not enough? Maybe so. One thing I do know is I really liked not having to change wheels AND pack the car at the end of the day. So for my last days' sessions at Infineon in July (doing two days back to back) I will switch to the NT-05's again and do a run with them on that track.

quite happy to hear this news...

ill get to kinda try mine out for real this weekend cause I'm going to autoX. not high speed or anything but its the first time to kinda test the NT05s in a race atmosphere. i don't have 1000 miles on mine either, maybe around 1000 i guess. it look like I'm only gonna run 1 day at gingerman raceway later this month since i can't get the first day of the event off work, but thats the first day i get to test them on a normal track.

as for your issues at thunder hill. do you think these tires don't like certain track surfaces? were thunder hill and Laguna paved similar?

[Bud]

Hemissary & Ron380:

I have no freaking idea. The tires now have maybe 3000 miles on them. Very little difference in tread depth. All I do with the car is drive it to the shop, drive it to the track, and take it into work on occasion (a 320-mile round trip on smooth highways at 65mph with cruise contol on all the time). Its a very boring life for the car until it hits the race track.

Temp was roughly the same both days. Maybe a little cooler at Laguna. Make that definitely.

Matt, were the pressures the same as last time? Don't want to overlook the obvious.

[MattRobertson]

Yup. 30 front and rear.

[Jontoad]

How deep were the treads when they were new? Is this a tire that may require "shaving" for track use?


i measured 7/32nds i think when mine were new. it looks like a lot less since the blocks are tapered to the water channels.

I've had more than one person say "wow you need new tires." only for me to say they are new i just put them on. lol.

i wouldn't shave them. next time i might heat cycle them when i order them. and i would order them again, but who knows, at the moment they might be the best bang for your buck tire for us but i saw a new camaro that was using a 275/40/20 stock. so that might open up some tire choices for us when companies start catering to those cars.

[Hemissary]

BTW, what were you seeing tire temp-wise when hot?

[MattRobertson]

BTW, what were you seeing tire temp-wise when hot?
You know, I didn't bother this time. What I was really running were the Hoosiers all day and I already have those dialed in (I had a brand new pair in the mix and they wore beautifully now that I started them out at the right pressures). The Nittos were just a "lets run them and see what happens" thing.

[Bud]

Yup. 30 front and rear.

I'm comparing apples to oranges here. But, I typically run my street tires (F1's, V's, Invos)...on the street during my mountain twistie runs at 34-36 psi. Do you start them that low because they heat up so much during extended periods at the track? Is that what you typically run other sets of street tires for everyday use or just for the track?

[MattRobertson]

You would not believe me if I told you what I run the Hoosiers at... except Hoosier told me to do it (OK I'll tell you... 47 psi cold and target hot pressure is 65 psi... done for the load capacity, and treadwear and rollover is close to perfect).

The NT-05's, or any track tire, for that matter, gets pressure cold that will take its treadwear out to the very tip of the wear diamonds. On Thunder Hill, that started out as 36 psi cold and was reduced to 32 ... cool (not cold since they had been run earlier in the day). This time it was 30 cold... all things being equal, thats mighty close.., identical if you look at the wear pattern.

On the Bridgestones, optimum was 36 cold and target hot was 44 psi. Whatever the cold started out to be, the hot pressure (measured right off the track) needed to be 44. At 45 I noticed a touch if skittering and by 46 it was noticeably woogedy. 43 was excessive wear. I can get 11 days out of a set of Bridgestones and still drive them on the street... haven't worn em out yet in fact. So those tires are dialed totally in. My gut tells me this is the sweet spot for the Nittos, but... I didn't check the hot pressures at all. Hey... it was the end of the day and I had all my tools, lawn chair, ice chest, steel floor jack and six wheels (yes I have 1 1/2 sets with me on track) to pack.

[Quick]

i measured 7/32nds i think when mine were new.

That is correct.

[glhs837]

Hmmm, interesting. Since I first mounted mine when it was cold and here, it was a while til I actually got to push them. DArned if I can remember when I first really started pushing them.

[BMWDON]

Matt, you had a chance to run the Nitto Invo's at all yet? been using those on the street and am happy with them, just don't know how they would hold up on a track

[MattRobertson]

Matt, you had a chance to run the Nitto Invo's at all yet?
No I haven't. According to Nitto the Invos are a step down in terms of performance versus the NT-05, so i wasn't planning on trying them. But who knows... never say never. Gahd knows i go thru tires fast enough i have plenty of opportunities.

[BMWDON]

wow, hell, when I bought my invo's lastyear, they were the top of the line nittos! Looks like the invo's are quietter and better wet weather performer than the nt05's, and the nt05's are better on the dry by a little bit. I'm running 275's in the rear, what were you using at the track? I like the wet weather traction on the invo's for the streets.

[glhs837]

I ran the Invos also, but only in the 255 size, which is all they had when I got mine. That said, they were quieter than the NTs, and did like the wet better. Dry hnadling isnt a fair comparison, since the NTs I ran were 275s, not the skinny 255s:)

The NTs lasted about 16K, right where I expected them too. Great tire, but too short lived for a guy who drives about 24K a year. Getting sweetie to buy off on about $700-800 a year for rubber is tough enough, if they didnt last a year, hell would break loose:) Back to the Vreds for me, the best compromise.

[RobAGD]

glhs - Yea I was wondering why you have Vreds back on the car when you were leaving Chess's place. He mentioned you burned through them already.

Oh well...

-R

[MattRobertson]

what were you using at the track?255/45/20's. I have to use the same size front and rear so I can rotate them in pairs. I usually wear tires out two at a time given track and general maniac usage. Also since I have an RT the RT knuckle will not allow the use of a 275 on stock wheels, which I have. Even the 255's need a 3mm spacer up front.

Back to the Vreds for me, the best compromise.What do you mean by 'compromise'? Are the NT's better in terms of traction than the Vreds? How would you compare the two? I'm looking for a wet weather track tire to go on my spare SRT wheels in the fall. I'm toying with the idea of using the 255/35/20's. Same size as I use now in Bridgestones and cheeeeep.

One thing I did at the track last time that I think I am going to institutionalize: Run the street tires on the last track session of the day. Sort of enforces a mellower drive which is a good thing when you are dehydrated and exhausted. It also means when I pull up at the end of the day, I still have to pack up all my crap, but I don't have to pack AND change wheels. If the NT's can handle light track duty they are going to get it... which will wear them out quick I think.

[Cibalo]

any more updates Matt? I got a spare set of SRT wheels at rock bottom price and looking to put some good track rubber on them. the NT05s are curious the way they have run two completely different ways for you.

[glhs837]

glhs - Yea I was wondering why you have Vreds back on the car when you were leaving Chess's place. He mentioned you burned through them already.

Oh well...

-R


Wouldnt say burned through, just normal wear.



What do you mean by 'compromise'? Are the NT's better in terms of traction than the Vreds? How would you compare the two?

Lifespan/cost. The NTs were better in terms of traction, but at a lifespan of only 16K, and me driving 24K a year, thats too much money in tires. The Vreds meet my vector of cost/grip/lifespan. Money no object? Id run the NTs all the time.

[MattRobertson]

I haven't put them on the track since the day I reported on at Laguna. Partly cuz two of them are now patched from flatting on me.

They are an OK tire that I don't think I will do again. Cheap, sure. Decently sticky yes. And nice and wide. But they are so wide on stock SRT wheels that in hard cornering I have caught the fender well several times and bent the aluminum lip outwards thanks totheir plus sizing of a 255.

I'm sure they'd be fine for street or spirited street use, but track use and really spirited street... not a good choice. My next tires will be the Pirelli PZero's in the new 255/40/20 size. Looking for lots of room in the fender wells.

[Cibalo]

What are your thoughts on the Eagle F1 Asymmetric (http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires.jsp?tireMake=Goodyear&tireModel=Eagle+F1+Asymmetric)? They come in a 255/35/20 size for less than $250.

I've been looking at tires for a while and it is difficult to find a high performance tire in a 20". There are lots out there in the 18-19" but very few other options.

It seems like either the Bridgestone Pole Positions, Nitto Invo and Nt05, Pirelli Pzero, or these Goodyears are about the only options

[Cibalo]

bump

[apollo]

I thought I will put in my 2cents. I autocross my Cayman S (I figured I want to trophy at regional level before I go trackin' at Watking or NHMS). With my ass in it is about 3000lb (with light battery and some of the stuff taken out). Magnum is about what 4800lb with all the fluids and driver. Guys are bitching about NT05s on Caymans, what do you expect on a car 1800lb heavier? Subbie STI is about as heavy you may want to go on NT05s. Bridgestone RE11s might be more of a fit there. They are on the upper load range for my little car, so it might be good for tracking Magnum. There are Sport Cups (Viper boys use it), but they are so damn expensive and add some moisture = you are dead.

[MattRobertson]

I wasn't aware of the Sport Cups and the rain. Doesn't matter to me as slicks are cheaper and better performers. Even without them in the picture, no way was I going to pay what they want for them.

Magnum is about 4400 with the driver and 1/2 tank of gas... still heavy as hell but not 4800.

I've still got them on my car and they may see Infineon next month. Either them or the Bridgestones will get taken out of moth balls... or both. Not running slicks in the kind of weather I can expect there.

They've been a good street tire although they like to catch the inside of the fender lip and bend the metal out. I suppose I could get the 245's for the front to fix that, or raise the car, which won't happen.

[Hemissary]

Hi Matt,

I had that same problem with the front fenders when I would oversteer going too hot into a corner. I worked the metal lip to bend upwards of ~45 degrees, this solved the problem but not the flaked(!) paint as a result of the first time they were distorted.

[xevilpetex]

They've been a good street tire although they like to catch the inside of the fender lip and bend the metal out. I suppose I could get the 245's for the front to fix that, or raise the car, which won't happen.

Just roll your fenders if you dont want the tire catching it.

[MattRobertson]

yeah I know... one of these days in my abundant spare time :-)