Frankentake IV is Finally Here... OMG and WTF!

[MattRobertson]

Yes, thats right. More than two years after I posted up Frankentake III (http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=37580) to the world - a quality intake you can do yourself for almost no money - I have finally gone what I think is the final step with it. Something I always wanted to do, and discussed, but never went anywhere with.

Why get off my butt now? And more importantly why in God's name would I spend money for this car's twelfth intake when I am pretty happy with the stainless AirHammer I have had on since the stroker motor went in?

----------Sidebar: My list of intakes (the ones I can remember. Doesn't count all the ones tested on the car at MFO events):


Stock
K&N Typhoon
Weapon-R prototype design #1
Weapon-R prototype design #2
Frankentake I
Frankentake II
Frankentake III
SRT/Daytona stock
Stainless AirHammer
Frankentake IV

----------

My initial impetus came from Billet Technology. They now offer what is essentially the Frankentake III as a commercial product, and unveiled it at MFO6 recently, where it tested pretty well (http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=142580) compared to the rest of the field. I think its especially neat since their price point puts it *well* underneath the cost of other commercial intakes. Its nice to see my idea make it to market so others can get a good product (rated second behind the AirHammer for sound at its original MFO test) and save more than a few bucks in the process.

Where was I? Oh yeah. Frankentake IV. Why do it and what is there left to do?

We have lots of hard test data that shows that, with the help of the famous lower radiator baffle mod, the engine compartment is bathed in ambient air when its moving. The result is a very surprisingly low air temperature at the point where the filter sits. Thanks to the experiments done with 12" filters on one of the two FIII designs, we even know how big that pocket is (its not big enough to support a 12" filter unless we relocate the p/s reservoir and lengthen the tube as far as we can).

We also know that, thanks in part to the alloy tube, the thing cools off surprisingly fast when you've been sitting in a staging lane, or at the Taco Bell drive thru. Net result: You can do without a heat shield. Something that still freaks people out and causes some to promptly reach for their keyboard and hammer away in fury and disbelief.

But its not perfect. I measured a 6-to-14 degree peak in temperature at the top of the filter, where its up against the hood. My ram air hood, with its air feed at this precise point, cut this down to about a 1-degree bump, but either way it doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out that heat rises, and there is a lot of dead air space under the filter that leads straight down, face-first, into the ambient airflow coming into the engine cavity. In a perfect world we want to bend the filter down so it lives deep in this 'cold' air pocket.

A few months ago QuickSilver83 showed off his take on this idea (http://www.lxforums.com/board/showpost.php?p=1725626&postcount=32), and I have to say this was what I always figured Frankentake IV should have been: another rubber elbow, a couple of connecting pieces of tubing and more clamps.

When I got to thinking about this again, I figured that somewhere there has to be some mandrel-bent aluminum elbows out there we can use to keep the parts down to a minimum. A mandrel-bent single alloy tube should give better airflow characteristics, better cooling, simpler construction and may even be cheaper.

Well, I found a grand total of ONE place where there are mandrel-bent alloy elbows sold. Fortunately they are pretty cheap. I chose a 16-gauge, 4" x 45-degree elbow with a six-inch centerline radius bend. Here it is and it costs just over 12 bucks (http://www.globaltecheng.com/ProductCart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=65&idproduct=816) plus shipping. Note I could have and maybe should have chosen a thinner 11-gauge elbow that would have shucked heat faster. Furthermore, they sell an elbow with a very gentle 12" centerline radius bend (here it is in 11-gauge (http://www.globaltecheng.com/ProductCart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=65&idproduct=896) for just under 18 bucks). This may offer the smoothest airflow channel of all but I wasn't 100% it would fit, and didn't want to put too much extra money into this experiment.

Here are all the parts, as delivered.

AirFlo Systems (http://store.airflo.com/90hl40r35.html)
Reducing 3.5" to 4" 90-degree elbow $18.46

Global Tech Engineering (http://www.globaltecheng.com/ProductCart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idcategory=65&idproduct=816)
1 4" dia x 45-degree (6-inch radius) tube $12.40

verociousmotorsports.com
S&B Clamp on crankcase breather with 1/2" ID opening $13.25
S&B 4" inlet, 9" filter $38.27
3.5" T-bolt clamp $3.50
4" T-bolt clamp (2 @ 3.50) $7.00

Please note I bought the standard-issue rubber elbow you see at intakehoses.com, along with a set of T-bolt clamps... but their idea of clamps that fit 4" rubber hoses is just plain wrong. The clamps were unusable. I personally bought clamps at verociousmotorsports.com, which is also where I bought the 9" high-quality S&B filter. You can get a silicone 90-degree elbow at siliconeintakes.com for $19.99, although I have not seen it in person. That site also has the cheapest price for T-bolt clamps @ about $2.50 each.


Here are all the parts. BTW I decided to use a breather filter instead of the original F III"s gas recirc hose and fitting (I still have at least a dozen sets of parts to make them in the garage) out of sheer laziness, and the fact that the BT version tested fine with a breather filter itself... and they didn't use a recirc hose because they were lazy too :P.

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankentake4_01.jpg

A few minutes with a hacksaw, using the same hacksaw and guide that I display in the Frankentake III thread, and we get this. Note the long piece is big enough to make a Frankentake III (hint to BT!).
EDIT: The long straight piece I cut off on the left is about 8" long and the short cut off piece on the right is about 2 1/2" long. The cut that made the long piece that is right at the bend was calculated to be right at the *end* of the bend with just *barely* enough straight pipe to let the filter have a roughly 1/2" section to be torqued onto. The short cut was made to fit the remaining tubing into the space available. In other words, the 'left' cut is the one you absolutely need to get right the first time.

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankentake4_02.jpg

Together but not yet installed. This is one very simple, clean assembly.

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankentake4_03.jpg

Installed. Note there is no IAT in the elbow. Thats because I was experimenting with a relocation (http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=144140) when I took these pics. I eventually drilled into the elbow top-of-center near the throttle body. I went top-of-center so I would be sure to clear my BT catch can ... that I have had for a year and haven't gotten around to installing :-(.

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankentake4_04.jpg

Seen from the side... The filter dives right down into the cavity left by the stock airbox. The filter actually sits almost directly on the hole leading out of the engine compartment. A little 3M red rubber body tape keeps it from rattling. Note that while this is a 9" filter, if you wanted to, a 10" filter would definitely work. There's plenty of wiggle room available, although clearly the 9" unit is perfect from a fitment standpoint.

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankentake4_05.jpg

Speaking of plenty of wiggle room, look at how much there is as this reverse angle shows. You can see the Frankentake III support mount that still is sitting on my power steering hose fitting (the hose clamp with the red 3M tape on it). The FIII sat directly on that, and we still have loads of clearance above it. That tells me the smoother-transition 12" radius elbow would almost certainly work. Who wants to try it??

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankentake4_07.jpg

On to the obvious question: Performance. As most know I think butt dynos are for morons. I believe in what you can test and measure. Only. There are two components to an intake's performance that matter to me: Heat retention and horsepower.

As heat goes, from what I have seen so far, this combo is behaving exactly as you would expect: it runs cooler than my stainless AirHammer. This is probably a combo of the bend and the alloy material. However thats not a test. I will be on Buttonwillow Raceway on January 29, and that track gave my motor its hottest temp readings ever. I will interchange intakes on back to back 20-minute sessions, see what I can see and report back. In the interim I may try and run a closed slow-speed course near my home and see if that gets me anything useful. If I get ambitious I will toss on the SRT and stock 5.7 intakes I have over the same course.

Performance. Well, butt dynos are for morons. But, since I am a moron I will say this: my bigass 6.4L motor may have lost a bit from the AirHammer. EDIT: Once again a real dyno proves that butt dynos are an utter waste. I GAINED power quite nicely (http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=147617). I have to stress that my motor is bigger than most out there, and greedier. The SRT intake is a performance disaster on my car, and it sure wouldn't be for most folks. So remember my perspective and how your needs are probably not so intense. What do I think I lost? Well, when I romp on it, when the rpm's start climbing and I get up past first gear I get what feels like an afterburner whoosh of power at a certain point. You can feel it in your gut. That seems to be gone right now. But I could EASILY be imagining it. Lets wait for some real data.

In the meantime, Frankentake IV can be seen as a viable, low-cost alternative to commercial intakes that is very likely to be a decent performer, at the least. Probably not for a big-motor setup, but if you have a 5.7 or even a 6.1 thats not too far off of stock, and you want a bitchen intake... you can build this one for peanuts and a few minutes of your time.

[DMAG]

Awesome...copying to the KB!!

[Shane T.]

And I though t my bargain used K and N was a cheap (and wothwile) mod... I'm getting the Visa card out now to order some parts. Maybe my buddies brother would like a 3rd hand K and N for a late Christmas present...

[65standard]

Man, that is nice.

[MattRobertson]

Something additional to note: I am using top-quality parts here, only. You can save money on this a number of ways.

Use worm gear hose clamps instead of t-bolts. Sure I show you a cheap place to go, but even so, with shipping costs you are looking at way more than basic hose clamps.

Use a cheaper filter. $40 of a $90 parts list is the filter. An 8-ply S&B is not the free-est flowing but is nails on protecting the motor.

Same with the breather filter. I went with something I knew to be triple the cost of a readily-available Spectre breather, which you can get at the local auto parts store for five bucks with no shipping. The Spectre product may be just fine, too. I just know the S&B is a quality product.

[fnkychkn]

:not_worth MattRobertson, pioneer of inexpensive mods for everyone. :not_worth

[Ron380]

Once again Matt... It is Alive! It ISSSS AALLLIIIVVVVVE!! HAHAHAAAA


:mrgreen:

Lookin' forward to some numbers, there, buddy!

[ChagaRT]

i was thinking about cutting my mopar CAI and adding a bigger filter. WOuld that work aswell? Nice job btw.

[MattRobertson]

i was thinking about cutting my mopar CAI and adding a bigger filter. WOuld that work aswell?
Very likely you can cut the tube down and fit another filter on it. The Mopar filter has a few bends in it, right? You'd want to make sure the way the thing points is going to be the right direction. But otherwise you are talking about what was done with Frankentake I (http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=33784), which was a cut-down K&N Typhoon tube and velocity stack with a 9" S&B filter stuck onto it. That was actually Meister's original design, which I altered in large part by removing the heat shield after running temp tests under the hood.

Speaking of velocity stacks, there's another way to go with Frankentake IV that I didn't feel like messing with.


Fuggedabout the filter I spec'd in Post #1
Get this 4" velocity stack (http://www.spectreperformance.com/#CATALOG.9604) from Spectre Performance. Jeg's sells them.
Get a short silicone collar and a couple extra t-bolt clamps to connect the velocity stack to the tube.
Fit the 6" inlet, 9" long S&B filter I originally fit to Frankentake I.

You'll wind up with a true velocity stack at the bottom of your filter at the expense of simplicity and a few more bucks. If I still had that Frankentake 1 filter (I cleaned out my garage when I moved a year or so ago) thats the way I would have gone.

ChagaRT you could do the same thing with a different 3.5" stack. I'm sure Spectre sells them.

[rander]

Way cool Matt! how would you sell one assembled?

[MattRobertson]

I wouldn't. I sent a PM to Billet Technology suggesting they sell it along with their Frankentake III design. Hit them up. Please! I think this would be a good product.

You can do it yourself, too. Just look at the Frankentake III thread and pretend the tube is curved in those instructions. You need to make the cuts like I showed in the picture in Post #1. I suppose I should go out and measure the pieces so I can save you the trouble of having to size the cuts yourself :-)

[rander]

I've got the tools so sure... the places where to cut would be awesome!!!! BTW, what's the final cfm with the new setup?

I wouldn't. I sent a PM to Billet Technology suggesting they sell it along with their Frankentake III design. Hit them up. Please! I think this would be a good product.

You can do it yourself, too. Just look at the Frankentake III thread and pretend the tube is curved in those instructions. You need to make the cuts like I showed in the picture in Post #1. I suppose I should go out and measure the pieces so I can save you the trouble of having to size the cuts yourself :-)

[MattRobertson]

BTW, what's the final cfm with the new setup?Not a clue. :-) I just built the thing in my garage, just like the previous versions.

[gremlinsteve]

and after all these months that coated intake manifold is still looking good...i like that titanium color we did it on...


steve-o

[street hooligan]

i plan on building one and trying it out.

[Jaak]

Wow, does that ever look like the one in my sig pic.. Without the bend. And a heck of a lot cheaper!!! Sweet way to do it!

[Carfinish]

awesome work once again Matt...that looks really good.

[MattRobertson]

Wow, does that ever look like the one in my sig pic.. Without the bend. And a heck of a lot cheaper!!! Sweet way to do it!Looks like you have a Frankentake III with a smaller filter. What is that? I know a guy on EBay is selling FIII knockoffs and saying they have an MSRP of like $279 but he's selling them for a mere $179 or something like that.

:banghead:

That same guy, if you look at his pics, is fudging the gas recirc hose. Has it pointing down to the ground and I guess hopes nobody notices.

and after all these months that coated intake manifold is still looking good...i like that titanium color we did it on...

It still looks like it was brand-new. And it still stays cooler than any other metal intake on the planet.

[Jaak]

Actually Matt, it's the 6.1 Mopar intake with a larger filter on it, the same size as what you're showing, but it's cut off out of picture.

The elbow you're using that goes to 4 inches, is exactly what the 6.1 Mopar intake does, and goes in to 4 inch aluminum pipe. But I've changed mine yet again, so I can use the divider on it, but with yet another filter that's different.

Considering how well the Mopar intake has worked for me, if I was to start all over from scratch, I'd put together a system like you've done. It's been a good performer for me, and yours cost a heck of a lot less for basically the same thing.

[Jaak]

Thanks for the links Matt, I've ordered another elbow (so I can make some changes to my mopar one) and ordered clamps to upgrade it as well...

[MattRobertson]

Actually Matt, it's the 6.1 Mopar intake with a larger filter on it, the same size as what you're showing, but it's cut off out of picture.

Whaddya know. I thought they used the same intake for both. Is it the same cheap Chinese rubber elbow?

[concussion]

I think this one is gonna go on.

Too good of a deal.

Great work Matt, I was considering the FIII but this is even better.

Cheers,
Burleson

[Jaak]

Whaddya know. I thought they used the same intake for both. Is it the same cheap Chinese rubber elbow?

Won't know for sure until I get it, but I suspect so!

The 5.7 is a smaller tube and bends to meet the TB. The 6.1 version is so like what you've created, it's funny...

[Jaak]

I'll steal some pictures from this thread....

http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=140515&highlight=mopar

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p299/SRT8HEMINJ/DSC_0002.jpg

http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p299/SRT8HEMINJ/DSC_0005.jpg

I'll have to take a picture of the filter I've chosen from K&N and the end that comes on the mopar intake. They don't use a 4 inch filter, they have an adapter that is curved for better air flow in from the filter. You can see in the first picture the clamp on the filter. I forget how big it is, but I'll try and get more pictures later today. It was the stock configuration, however, that I got my 11 second runs with (with the stock SRT cat back) by holding the car in third at the end of the 1/4 and letting the revs climb past the shift point. So it breathes fine...

[MattRobertson]

Its not the same elbow. Looks like the Mopar one is shorter on the 4" side. Not sure which I like better as the 'bigger' elbow allows fudging on the fitment (just stuff more tube down inside), although with F4 I measured stuff out so you didn't need to do that. I don't see an IAT hole but I assume they drilled the elbow. I'm guessing the connector to the filter is a velocity stack. The S&B filters have a mini one of those built into their plastic flange so I have never been too upset about not using a separate one, although I am curious as to whether the full-on stack I noted earlier from Spectre, along with the original 6x9 filter Meister found for us all, would work better. I'm kinda pissed I threw out my original... but I had so many intake parts they took up an entire rack shelf in my garage. Never thought I would go back to it.

[gooeytek]

Hey Matt, I'm using the silicone 90-degree reducing elbow from frozenboost http://www.frozenboost.com/product_info.php?cPath=214&products_id=394&osCsid=fe51f0cbea8bb6a98071559d9cc4a1fa (http://www.frozenboost.com/product_info.php?cPath=214&products_id=394&osCsid=fe51f0cbea8bb6a98071559d9cc4a1fa)

probably the same as the one from siliconeintakes. It's a pretty good piece, compared to the rubber one from intakehoses which I also have, except that it's a pretty tight fit on the 4" side when fitting the 4" tube. Works well though, and you can get it in blue, black, or red.

[MattRobertson]

Yeah frozenboost.com and siliconeintakes.com are exactly the same company. The picture that frozenboost uses (the orange one watermarked "siliconeintakes.com" :-) ) is actually of a straight 90. The one at siliconeintakes.com (the blue one) is of the actual reducer. But they are the same product, design, price etc.

http://www.siliconeintakes.com/images/product/90_red_picture.jpghttp://www.siliconeintakes.com/images/product/90_reducer_blue_picture.jpg

I really came very close to buying this, but I was concerned about what would happen if I drilled into it for the IAT. I *know* how the rubber elbow behaves but drilling into silicone is an unknown to me. It seems like a *killer* deal - a silicone elbow for $19.99, and thats the site that sells t-bolt clamps for the lowest price on the web. A good place to get a combined shipping deal.

What did you do about the IAT? You drilled the elbow? Can you show us how it fit installed?

[monty1269]

Matt- you se this yet?:

http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=144277

[Jaak]

Well, I've ordered one of those elbows and clamps, so I'll be able to put them side by side to compare. The pictures above, don't really give a good view of the elbow I think....

I want to continue using the Mopar divider, so I'll be shifting my tube over an inch so I can fit in a different filter.

Here's some pics in case they're useful to anyone. This isn't seated against the tube, so you can see a gap. Normally it's flush.

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e266/srt8jaak/CAI/001.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e266/srt8jaak/CAI/002.jpg


Dirty OEM Mopar filter on top.. (With K&N Lube) What I ran my 11.98 with.

What I'm replacing it with, on the bottom. (Really ugly pine wall behind. I'm ripping that out, the whole room is done in it and I hate it. Anyone want to take it away? LOL)

http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e266/srt8jaak/CAI/005.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e266/srt8jaak/CAI/006.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e266/srt8jaak/CAI/007.jpg

[MattRobertson]

Matt- you se this yet?:

http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=144277
Yup. I wouldn't use it. I'm not a fan of the level of particulates that K&N filters allow thru. They flow better and make decent numbers that way, but I like my motor more than I like hp numbers.

You could buy a 90-degree mandrel bend (http://www.globaltecheng.com/ProductCart/pc/viewcategories.asp?idCategory=65&prodSort=&ihSize=3.5&ihMaterial_of_Construction=Aluminum&ihWall_Thickness=11+Gauge&ihDegree_of_Bend=90&ihCenterLineRadius=) from globaltecheng.com for like $20. The link above shows all the 3.5" tubing. Looks like about $20. Get yourself a big radius and have at it. Or do a 4" and bore out the hole a little to make it fit. Either way I bet you could use a 90 and a short length of tubing connected by a silicone connector (at most... it might fit by itself) and be done cheaper than that thing.

FYI guys, since I am totally unable to leave well enough alone, I ordered 45-degree, 10" and 12" centerline radius 4" tubes in thin 11-gauge from this site today. We'll see which of the two smoother bends fits best.

[MattRobertson]

Hey I like the pine. Gives a nice woodsy Canadian snow and grizzly bears at the cabin kinda feel. eh?

:Na_Na_Na_Na:

[Jaak]

Hey I like the pine. Gives a nice woodsy Canadian snow and grizzly bears at the cabin kinda feel. eh?

:Na_Na_Na_Na:

LOL, yeah I don't mind it on one wall, but the whole room is done in it. Makes me feel like I'm trapped in a barrel!

Interesting comment on the K&N. I've always wondered about that with them....

[MattRobertson]

Interesting comment on the K&N. I've always wondered about that with them....Yeah the S&B's flow decently, but they are also 8-ply filters. You could get better HP numbers on the dyno with another filter.

[4t5Gunner]

Am I missing something? Or is the 11 gauge elbow actually thicker at .120" than the 16 gauge elbow being only .065". Is this like shotguns where the lower the number the larger the barrell (12 gauge big 20 gauge... Not so much.

[MattRobertson]

oh **** I hope not. Damn I am sooo stupid if I did that. I bet you are right and the gauge is the opposite of what you think it is. I have two more elbows on the way in 11-gauge. I ordered one 12-inch and one 10-inch radius tube to see if the 12 fit, and if not the 10 is a fallback.

[MattRobertson]

http://foohbar.com/ul/doh.gif

Yup you're right. That will be fun to cut thru with a hacksaw.EDIT: I contacted them via email. We'll see if I am in time to change the material.

FYI guys, what I am up to is trying out smoother bends to see if they also fit. The 12" is probably the widest we can get away with. Once I had fit the 6" radius and saw how much extra room there was, I knew we could get away with a smoother transition. Stay tuned.

[Ron380]

^^ Sawzall, man! :banana:

Hint: Wrap a nylon strap "snugly" around the tube, near where you want to cut, and clamp the strap in a vice. ;)

[MattRobertson]

ooh now there's an idea.

I've got a couple hundred bucks in Home Depot gift cards, and I don't own a Sawzall.

http://foohbar.com/ul/eggsellent_60.gif Eggsellent!

No matter what I want the thinnest tubing I can get my hands on for the cooling properties.

[Ron380]

Oh, Matt... you GOTTA get a sawzall! All kinds of different blades available for 'em, they're practically "essential" these days! I got a good one from Sears a few years ago, on sale for about $80! :thumbs_u:

Just go slow and be careful with it! Practice on something "unimportant" ... as in ... "not connected to the car yet"! :mrgreen:

[Bob@SVS]

It does clean up well.It hasn't looked like that for awhile,he cleaned her up for the pics.
I bet the car is still dirty from Laguna:Na_Na_Na_Na:





and after all these months that coated intake manifold is still looking good...i like that titanium color we did it on...


steve-o

[MattRobertson]

it is *not* !!!

fugger

[seanol]

Matt,
With tubing the larger the gauge number the thicker, like sheetmetal. 11 gauge should be .090, 16 gauge is .050. This is for aluminum.

For steel, 11 gauge is .120 and 16 gauge is .060.

I have had great luck using a 4 inch grinder with cut off blades for steel. Hacksaw for aluminum.

Good luck,
Sean

[MattRobertson]

Well, looks like the values they use are not the same as yours, but the principle is right there. Yeah I screwed up. Like a jackass I assumed bigger numbers = thicker walls, which is stupid. Especially since I know how shotgun gauges work.

I emailed 'em. We'll see if I'm in time to change things. I am kind of surprised as their thinnest tubing is a fair bit thicker than the thin stuff I used for all the Frankentake III's we built a couple years ago. I got the tubing then from Airflo Systems.

FYI everybody, so far temp performance seems pretty good. Average IAT is 1-4 degrees above ambient, with occasional dips to straight ambient. In city driving its 10-15 above ambient. Not bad for a homebuilt deal like this. It can get hot if you idle but cools off pretty quick.

[Tagman]

Matt, you are always up to something. I think you will be refining the Frankentake for years to come. Better brush up on your Roman numerals!! Can see it in 30 years: Now Introducing the Frankentake XXI!! :mrgreen: (That's 21, btw )

When I built my DIY CAI, I was fooling around with what you just did, but I could not make it work because of the 6"x12" S&B filter I ordered. Just couldn't get the thing to fit and didn't want to spend another $40-50 for a smaller filter. Anyways, tryng to get it to fit I was looking into 6"x4" reducers and there really isn't anything available in metal that I could find and I ended up using PVC. But, I did have one idea that you might be able to incorporate into your latest incarnation that might allow you to use a bigger filter. Maybe up to a 5" opening. What if you took the metal tube to a muffler/metal shop and had them widen the end where the filter attaches? I know they do this when then they need to put together two metal tubes. They widen the ID of the one to slide over the other. This would be kinda like a velocity stack, but without having the extra parts involved. A diesel truck muffler shop could handle the 4" diameter pipe as they work with pipes that size and bigger.

You might have to cut the tube a little longer at the end in the beginning (circled in red) to give the shop more meat to work with, and the guage of the metal might have to be a bit thicker cause it will thin out as it is expanded. Then cut it after it is expanded. I think it could work.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v57/Tagger411/charger_misc/frankentake4_02_1.jpg

[MattRobertson]

Tagman, interesting idea. BUT you could instead just put a Spectre Performance velocity stack on here and that would give you your 6" opening on a 4" tube, and a velocity stack. The trick would be you need to add the length of the stack to your assembly. You would also have to add a silicone connector and two more clamps.

You didn't go there cuz you didn't want to buy a smaller filter. I didn't go there cuz I didn't want to buy a bigger filter. Maybe we can swap and both be happy (kidding) :-)

Now, I cut down the tube so I had a minimal amount of tubing that was post-bend, so to speak. I kept only enough to fit the filter on straight. But if doing a velocity stack you could fudge this with the wiggle room that is available in the elbow (moving stuff back and angling the tube up a tad) or using a 10" or 12" bend tube -- which I have on the way -- to come up with some sort of fitment that works.


Speaking of those smoother bends that are on the way, you guys know I contacted Global Tech Engineering about my tubing thickness goof. Well, this morning I got a call from them and its squared away. And the call was from the owner of the company. We had a long talk and he looked over this thread while we were on the phone. I have to say I was really appreciative of the customer service they provide and its nice to know this is USA-made stuff gotten to us by a real company and not a bunch of telemarketers fronting for Red China.

You guys have probably noted the pricing for these tubes is *very* low. Thats cuz they deal mostly in the industrial market and, while they are perfectly happy to sell single elbows and tubes to people, if they raised their prices to the consumer market it would hurt their industrial business. Plus, they have a good philosophy of selling a quality product at a fair but not crazy price. So we win. Its not polished tubing - its industrial grade. You can polish it yourself if you like, or pay $90 from somewhere that sells the same stuff polished - and marked - up.

Something they are looking into -- and Tagman you'll fnd this timely -- is smooth metal reducers. I told him I didn't think we have much of a market for that here so call me stupid.

These elbows are manufactured in batches so, given luck of the draw, the two bends I need will likely not make it to me for awhile. Probably a couple weeks-plus.


And speaking of Frankentake numerology... who is going to take this to the next step? You guys who love to pull air from under the car... this place sells 90-degree bends. And there's a fair bit of slack tubing that you cut off... or *don't*. Seems to me you can build a low-drawing intake out of 3.5" thin alloy tubing (4" won't fit thru the hole, right?) for next to nothing. A small bungee cord hooked to the stock intake support would hold the thing up.

Is that Frankentake V? I'm not going there because of the air resistance issue associated with this design. But someone out there can build another $90 intake that does.

[MattRobertson]

Here are their 3.5", 16-gauge 90-degree bends (http://www.globaltecheng.com/ProductCart/pc/viewcategories.asp?idCategory=65&prodSort=&ihSize=3.5&ihMaterial_of_Construction=Aluminum&ihWall_Thickness=16+Gauge&ihDegree_of_Bend=90&ihCenterLineRadius=).

The 5" radius tube is probably along the lines of the sharper GSM bend. If according to the tube specs on the individual product page, there is a 7" tangent that means 7" of straight pipe coming out each end. 7+5=12 and thats probably not enough. Plus its a hard bend.

The next size is a 24" radius. Thats mighty big. And mighty smooth. I bet you could do something with that and cut off the straight pipe entirely on both ends. Its a $23 experiment. but a 24" radius is a little scary.

Lets step up the wall thickness from .065" to .083" (16 gauge to 14). Now you have different options (http://www.globaltecheng.com/ProductCart/pc/viewcategories.asp?idCategory=65&prodSort=&ihSize=3.5&ihMaterial_of_Construction=Aluminum&ihWall_Thickness=14+Gauge&ihDegree_of_Bend=90&ihCenterLineRadius=): 12, 15 and 18-inch radii to choose from, and they cost anywhere from thirteen to 16 dollars. Sounds somewhat affordable.

A 15" radius with a 7" tangent yields a tube that extends 22" and drops 22". That should be enough, but if its not, the 18" radius bend will extend 25" on both sides, and that should give you more than enough. Cut off what you don't need.

So ... who's making Frankentake V?


By the way guys, I have an idea for a Mk II F4. Something interesting to do with temperature that nobody has tried before. Parts are on order.

[Tagman]

Tagman, interesting idea. BUT you could instead just put a Spectre Performance velocity stack on here and that would give you your 6" opening on a 4" tube, and a velocity stack. The trick would be you need to add the length of the stack to your assembly. You would also have to add a silicone connector and two more clamps.

Ture. But, I was trying to save the additional cost of the velocity stack, clamps, etc.

Something they are looking into -- and Tagman you'll fnd this timely -- is smooth metal reducers. I told him I didn't think we have much of a market for that here so call me stupid.

I looked into this also. Do a search for Concentric Reducers. There are companies that make them, BUT, they are expensive and HEAVY. I managed to find a local dealer and went to take a look. They had some nice 6"-4" reducers made from stainless steel but the things weighed a lot and like I said, cost way to much for me to experiment with.


Now you got me wanting to redesign my intake, dam you!! :banghead: I see a trip to the hardware store in the near future......

[netnathan]

You want to go deluxe...

T6061 Aluminum, 1.5mm (14 gauge) thick. 4" O.D. Polished Aluminum 45 Degree Bend. LOOKS like a pretty good radius.
$39.95, so you get it polished for 20 dollars more.
https://www.s2kstore.com/product.php?productid=1927&cat=190&page=1


By the way 16 gauge Aluminumis prety easy to bend by hand.
If you want to experiment you can bend 16 gauge very easy by packing with sand (use some cheap plastic tube caps on the ends to hold in the sand) and slowly bend it around any wood form you make by hand. The sand keeps the pipe from deforming at the bend. You might even be able to hand bend 16 gauge SS or just take it to a muffler shop.
..

[dudeiwin86]

by the way guys, i have an idea for a mk ii f4. Something interesting to do with temperature that nobody has tried before. Parts are on order.


keep us posted ;)

[MattRobertson]

keep us posted ;)meh. Its not going to happen. It would cost too much money. The idea was to use 4" silicone tubing to cover the alloy tube and answer the question definitively as to whether insulation vs. bare alloy that cools asap is better or not.

But the bare alloy is working might fine... and it would cost me no less than $70 plus shipping for the silicone... and that ain't happening.

Still waiting on the smoother bends from Global Tech. They warned me it would take awhile to get them fabbed up, so the delay is expected.

[4t5Gunner]

Still waiting on the smoother bends from Global Tech. They warned me it would take awhile to get them fabbed up, so the delay is expected.
:popcorn::popcorn:

[netnathan]

Matt...
Do you know Spectre Performance makes a filter with the design of the S&B (with the "internal cone filter inlet") but it has a lip on the top so you can attach hose (or more tubing) for fresh air feed to the center filter, using an adapter that they sell. This may be a nice addition to Frankentake designs if the filter is good quality.
As you know ...they also make velocity stacks to allow 6" filters.

Have you checked Sectre Performance to see if their filter design looks acceptable to you?

I am sure you have been to their site....you can even now download the catalog.

Nice site...you can turn off the music in the upper left. Go to the "Air Intake Components (Modular)" catalog section first. Don't forget to look through the "Ducting" and "Air Boxes and Plenums" sub-sections.
http://www.spectreperformance.com/#CATALOG

FYI....
They are really into helping people with custom air intake designs (using some of their parts of course).

They are actually Spectre Industries (909) 673-9800.

They are great people to talk to. I live very close (15 miles) and have been there twice trying out ideas.
They will even let you take "mock-up" designs for tubing (made of a die plastic that is identical to what they sell), air cleaners, filters, plumbng parts....etc, out to your car to get an idea if the part will work.
They will even weld up the pipe design you want.
Their design engineers are even willing to help. I had a long talk with one over the GSM I used to run (about the manometer readings that were gotten in a past MFO)....but that is another story....
They also have a dyno on site for testing designs. They took me on a tour of their shop.

..

[charginscott]

I use the Spectra filter on mine and love it.

[Trojan]

I got most the parts ordered, seem to be out of 9" filters though, Im gonna call S&B, and I need the 45* bend 2 day'd to me. My current RDP on the Challenger pulls air from a sealed area, not good. This is cheap and easy, Looking forward to it.

[street hooligan]

your not gonna run the rdp unit anymore trojan?

[Trojan]

your not gonna run the rdp unit anymore trojan?

Nope, its not functional on the Challenger the way the grills and airflow are set up. The area the RDP filter is in is sealed of from direct airflow. Its starving for air down there. The front vents blow on the brakes, the grill on the radiator. I either need to cut a hole in my belly pan or do something creative, Im gonna run the Frankentake IV untill my blower gets installed in a couple weeks if I can get the filter.

[street hooligan]

what kinda intake are you gonna run with the blower, and whats your opinion on the rdp for the charger platform, is it still in that sealed of an area on that platform?????

[Trojan]

what kinda intake are you gonna run with the blower, and whats your opinion on the rdp for the charger platform, is it still in that sealed of an area on that platform?????

Im not sure on the Charger, Im gonna custom feed my blower thru my T/A hood scoop on my other hood. Raped Ape Style!!! :racing:

[street hooligan]

thats a badass car you have but i thought u had a rdp charger on it already?

[MattRobertson]

Matt...
Do you know Spectre Performance makes a filter with the design of the S&B (with the "internal cone filter inlet") but it has a lip on the top so you can attach hose (or more tubing) for fresh air feed to the center filter, using an adapter that they sell. This may be a nice addition to Frankentake designs if the filter is good quality.
I haven't seen the Spectra version of the filter but its not the first one of those I have had on my car. Waaaay back in the day I had a Weapon-R filter on that had one of those. In our cars, the idea doesn't do us any good because the mouth of the filter is already bathed massively in cool air. This was true even when the Frankentake was a straight tube angled down a bit. Bending the filter down cooled off the top of it, not the end. Been there and done that with the temperature probes. And we know ram air doesn't work on these cars from the pressure testing done by Done and Rev.Hammer. I did a tube attachment that I never posted up a lonnnng time ago. I didn't post it up because it tested out to do... nothing. Somewhere I have a picture of the thing...

So long as you do the lower radiator baffle mod, you have taken care of your cold air to the filter. And remember... there is effectively no meaningful suction at the end of that filter end cuz its sitting on top of the rest of the filter, which is ahead of it in line as suckiness goes.
As you know ...they also make velocity stacks to allow 6" filters.Yup. But its a mod that adds complexity, the S&B has a mini/quasi/half-assed velocity stack built into its base and we'll only know the difference on a dyno. Still, I'm curious too. If I still had my 6" base S&B filter I would have used their stack.

Have you checked Sectre Performance to see if their filter design looks acceptable to you? Well it looks great, but how about the specs on the thing? Layers? Particulate matter tests after a few thousand miles? I'm kinda sticking with what I know is a safe filter and not doing any experimenting there. The filter can look good and seem of high quality and you'll never know the difference. So I'm just playing it safe. They may be fine. But I have to admit the fact you can pick them up at Pep Boys doesn't give me a warm glow.

I am sure you have been to their siteall over it :-)

I had a long talk with one over the GSM I used to run (about the manometer readings that were gotten in a past MFO)....but that is another story....
So what'd they say?

Im gonna run the Frankentake IV untill my blower gets installed in a couple weeks if I can get the filter.
Chris, it takes awhile to get the alloy tubes from globaltecheng.com unless you get lucky and order near their batch delivery time. Like a couple weeks. They say that on their web site. You sure this will fit into your time frame?

Also, I bet a 10" filter will work if a 9" won't. And if its only for a couple weeks, get an 8". The world won't end.

[netnathan]

I haven't seen the Spectra version of the filter but its not the first one of those I have had on my car.
So long as you do the lower radiator baffle mod, you have taken care of your cold air to the filter. And remember... there is effectively no meaningful suction at the end of that filter end cuz its sitting on top of the rest of the filter, which is ahead of it in line as suckiness goes.


You could still mount the adpter to a duct that goes out the fresh air inlet near the fornt bumper for forced fresh air. Maybe the duct adapter will work on the S&B?



But I have to admit the fact you can pick them up at Pep Boys doesn't give me a warm glow.


Yea..I know...but
Pep boys does sell some good stuff.... don't they also sell K&N and AFE filters?
I am surprised at the amount of stores that sell the infamous throttle body spacers.... even HHP.



So what'd they say?


They don't really like using sharp 90 degree pipes in a system unless you have to. They reccommend maybe (2) 45 degrees pipes. They also said the filter was the main problem, it does not have sufficent flow. Their said 4" filters (the big ones) are rated for 850 CFM. Plus the GSM is only a 3.5", I am pretty sure.

..

[Trojan]

just hung up with Yolanda at Global tech, the tube is in route!

[MattRobertson]

You could still mount the adpter to a duct that goes out the fresh air inlet near the fornt bumper for forced fresh air. Well see, that is what I am getting at... there is no forced fresh air. The *entire* filter is feeding air to the intake tube. Likely with a higher flow rate the closer you are to the mouth of the tube and the base of the filter, diminishing as it gets to the end of the filter. Consider that, and then add in the knowledge that - based on temperature probes and not an assumption this time - the air in the end of the filter is ambient even on a Frankentake III where the filter is straight out of the (angled down) tube.

Remember, I am angling the filter down with this 45 degree elbow to eliminate the temperature rise at the top of the filter - the side facing the hood. The 'power stack' part was ambient all along (I've got the temp test on that portion around here somewhere).

So... if its not going to help when the car is moving, is that a 100% no-help thing? What about when the car is not moving? In that scenario, the hookup to the outside is going to have a benefit, since thats the one weakness of a short-ram: it bakes at a standstill. The question is, since all of the rest of the filter is pulling in air, how much of the total on a 9" filter is coming in from that end? I'm thinking that, given the limited surface area there versus the rest of the filter... it ain't much.

Plus, on the current 6" CLR bend, its not gonna fit. The filter physically sits halfway onto - and makes contact with - the hole. There's no way to make room for a 9" filter to have anything stuck onto the end.

In the name of science, when I am seeing how to cut up the two wider-radius bends I have on order, I'll see if there's any way to center that filter directly over the hole so you can glom something onto it if you want.

They don't really like using sharp 90 degree pipes in a system unless you have to. They reccommend maybe (2) 45 degrees pipes. They also said the filter was the main problem, it does not have sufficent flow. Their said 4" filters (the big ones) are rated for 850 CFM. Plus the GSM is only a 3.5", I am pretty sure. Well the stuff on the bends pretty much tracks with what we keep hearing from people who know airflow dynamics. Yeah the down-low tubes all are 3.5" cuz thats what it takes to fit thru the hole down there.

In another thread, somebody (was it Street Hooligan?) showed a BWoody intake that is basically a F-IV with a cobra-head elbow at the TB. I visited their web site and they claim a flow rate of over 1000 cfm. Makes me wonder if F-IV is in the same league, or whether it takes a more freely-flowing filter to get a number like that.

[netnathan]

Good read Matt.
I believe there needs to be some testing done on ram air feeding the filter to see if the benefit is there or not.
Anybody got a dyno that I can carry on a trailer? Or i guess we could juts hook up manometer to the inlet tube to see what type of pressure build there is or not during driving. However I believe the benefit may not be there till you are moving at a good clip.

[done]

Good read Matt.
I believe there needs to be some testing done on ram air feeding the filter to see if the benefit is there or not.
Anybody got a dyno that I can carry on a trailer? Or i guess we could juts hook up manometer to the inlet tube to see what type of pressure build there is or not during driving. However I believe the benefit may not be there till you are moving at a good clip.

Look here:

http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=35634&highlight=manometer

[MattRobertson]

ha! Nathan where you been? Those were the definitive tests on the subject. Its a bummer but really not a big surprise. I've seen similar tests that came out the same way: You need to be driving kinda fast (like 250-300mph fast) for it to genuinely work, it seems. Otherwise, its a cold air source to be sure... but thats it.

[MattRobertson]

Well, the 10" and 12" CLR-radius bends got in today. I just got done marking them up and eyeballing their fitment.

1. They will both fit.

2. I'm not sure I should bother - nor should you - with the wider bends for a couple of reasons. I'll post it all up tomorrow when I have had some time to take some pics and lay everything out for everyone.

[concussion]

:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

[MattRobertson]

OK, here is what I am seeing. I need the group to chime their thoughts in on this one as I am by no means an airflow expert, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

These are the three bends. 12" radius on the bottom, 10" and then the original 6" on the top, which I pulled out of the car and disassembled for the picture. The black lines on the two new ones are cut lines. On the left side, thats supposed to be the actua cut point. On the right, the dual lines indicate the position of the filter collar. I would cut on the outer line.

These were quick late-night, long-day-already measurements and I am pretty sure I can cut more off. But note that each radius requires that I keep on more alloy. That makes no sense to me but I mocked it up halfway intelligently, I thought. I stuffed the filter down as far as it would go on one end of the tube, and marked it (this is the inner line of the dual lines). Then I laid the pipe inside of the engine bay and marked where the elbow came up to it... allowing for some extra to give the elbow something to clamp on.

Pretty sure when I line it up for real, I will be able to saw some more off, but the proportion of error, if any, should stay the same.

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankentake4_08.jpg

But thats not the real issue as I see it. As I see it, while these bends are indeed more gradual, the fact is there is hardly any tube involved on the 6" radius bend. Thats obvious in the photo above, and more so when you just look down the thing and see right out the other side.

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankentake4_10.jpg
http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankentake4_09.jpg

Which begs the question: Is this worth messing with? Did I get it right the first time?

[monty1269]

So you're questioning the "need" for a straight section of tube?? Or if the difference in these bends is really gonna make any difference at all??

Heck...a little polish on the inside and you;ve got yerself a nice piece of jewelry! ;) NICE work as always Matt - kudos my brudda! - I'd bean ya but what's the point any more - we all know you've earned respect around here. ;)

[MattRobertson]

Thx Monty :-)

The question is essentially, is it worth it to pursue a more-gradual radius bend as shown above? The idea behind a smoother bend is to reduce airflow restriction caused by the bend in the first place... but there's so little here... why bother? Is there anything to be gained that is not perhaps lost by putting on a longer tube, or a tube that is gradually bending throughout its entire length rather than a very small portion of it?

[seanol]

Matt,

Wouldn't velocity start to play a part in the small segments you are using? I would think the tighter bend will have a greater velocity to the intake elbow. I do understand it will only be at a certain velocity.

The restriction seems to be small enough to be inconsequential.

I think the longer the tube the more important it becomes. Like an Air Hammer style intake.

Can you log the difference in MAP from one to the other? Or is that a can of worms you don't want to open? :banghead:


As a side note, wouldn't it be great to identify an RPM/Throttle Angle opening relationship that correlates to BMEP (peak torque) and tune the length of the tube for best flow in that range? The results should flow up and down the curve. Like the original ram tuning but to a plenum, not individual runners.

Sorry to hijack with pipe dreams,
Sean

[Ron380]

Matt- My SWAG on the airflow, is that the angle of bend would have more affect than the length of pipe. Imagine if you had a "column" of air coming in each end. If you could keep the columns straight, you would be able to see the angles they meet at, and the "overlap" on the outside of the bend. The sharper the angle, and the less overlap, the more turbulence would "normally" be created. So, the more gentle angles "should" be better for airflow...

As you said, though, is the overall distance long enough to make any difference here, considering the volume of air the engine is pulling in...?? :blam:

[taki]

im shootin from my hip here. i am a civil engineer (turned structural), but ive got some references on fluid mechanics and losses in piping. i havent used this stuff in 15 years (since school), but i do remember the concepts pretty well.

I would bet that Super T (youre a mechanical engineer, right?) would also be able to apply some HVAC ductwork design to determine air flows, losses, etc.

the tables are based on any fluid, but im not sure if its applicable to air (which i know is a fluid, but obviously has some different properties than liquid). the tables also assume turbulent flow.

ive got a table in one of my reference manuals that equates a specific fitting type (elbow, 45, tee, etc) to an equivalent pipe length. the point of this is to somehow compare the "losses" attributed to each of the fittings due to its shape, and equate it to a quantity of straight pipe.

for example, for a 4" diameter 90 degree "short radius" elbow, the losses due to the elbow are equivalent to the losses in 13' of straight pipe.

for a long radius 90 degree elbow, it is equivalent to 4.6' of straight pipe.

for a 45 degree elbow, it is equivalent to 5.5' of straight pipe.

now, i dont know what radius this table is using (it does say its using steel threaded pipe, so the elbows are very short radii), but my thought is if you introduce any bends, you are inducing "losses" and slowing the air velocity down....

so maybe an elbow really doesnt help....unless, the colder air that it takes in makes up for the losses.

somebody out there, check my engineering judgement on this one, please.

we need somebody to design an intake which eliminates the 90 degree bend at the throttle body...has anybody ever attached a cone filter directly to the throttle body? isnt that how some of the corvette intakes are designed?

my 2 cents..

[taki]

here is a web link that really goes into the number crunching....

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/total-pressure-loss-ducts-pipes-d_625.html

[street hooligan]

i wanna build a f4 now...........anyone wanna buy that cai from me, lol.

matt wanna build me a f4? i have no time on my hands too.......ill pay.

[monty1269]

Matt - box up either one and send it on down here... I'll get on the rollers for ya' (going anyways!) so, I'll let you know as soon as you want it to be known. ;)

[dwshootist]

While there may be some slight, measurable flow differences between the three different designs in this unique application, I doubt you could come to any real conclusion regarding one profile definitively outperforming another.

That said, water and air have some similar characteristics when moving through pipe; in both cases resistance is the key. Just the fact that your within an enclosed space you have built-in resistance even in a straight tube. Another part of the design battle is controlling the flow characteristics to minimize unwanted turbulence. There can be good turbulence and bad turbulence.

The problem is that the three different pipe designs you have all represent different physical parameters that will offset otherwise equal design features. For example, the 6" bend is clearly the tightest and in your design represents a near right angle due to pipe length and fitment issues. But, it has 30% or more less pipe than the other profiles. At the other extreme, the 12" bend would have the best theoretical flow design profile but it also has maybe 40% more pipe.

In the end, I would go with the design that gives you the largest filter opportunity, provides the best fitment and gives the best aesthetics. The flow data is probably niggling over crumbs. One last thought, the best solution might be the 6" bend with a velocity stack that allows you to use a larger filter. That's the direction I'm leaning.

Either way Matt props to you for the work. Like we talked about, any posting of dimensional info on what lengths to cut the different pieces would be greatly appreciated.

[MattRobertson]

I'm still taking this in, guys... and there's something I am not telling you :Dso maybe an elbow really doesnt help....unless, the colder air that it takes in makes up for the losses.Yup. That is the *only* reason we are going thru this bend business. Frankentake III was what you see here in F-IV but in a straight tube. But the filter is up high in a known warmer area. We are bending the filter into a known ambient air pocket.
i wanna build a f4 now...........anyone wanna buy that cai from me, lol. matt wanna build me a f4? i have no time on my hands too.......ill pay.No! :D Serially, its 5 minutes with a hacksaw (ok its 15 if you count the smoothing you should do on the edges with a grinder). The rest is just assembly.

While there may be some slight, measurable flow differences between the three different designs in this unique application, I doubt you could come to any real conclusion regarding one profile definitively outperforming another.
I am kind of thinking the same thing here.

And about 50% of the diameter of the 6" radius bend is straight thru to the other side of the tube because it is so short after the bend. I know airflow doesn't work so simply but it has to be a factor of SOME kind.

The problem is that the three different pipe designs you have all represent different physical parameters that will offset otherwise equal design features. For example, the 6" bend is clearly the tightest and in your design represents a near right angle due to pipe length and fitment issues. How can it be a right-angle (i.e. 90 degrees) since its a 45-degree angle by definition?

In the end, I would go with the design that gives you the largest filter opportunity, provides the best fitment and gives the best aesthetics. The flow data is probably niggling over crumbs. sounds about right to me but again I am far from a novice, let alone an expert.

One last thought, the best solution might be the 6" bend with a velocity stack that allows you to use a larger filter. That's the direction I'm leaning.I don't think that will work, and here's why:

Go back to the first shots and see how the tube is horizontal as it comes out the TB and heads over to the dip down to the filter. That means any increase in filter size will move the tube up off the vertical... in other words you will likely run out of vertical room with the 6" radius unless you were willing to go to an 8" filter.

A smoother bend like the 10" or 12" seems - based on preliminary WAG fitment - to allow you a bit more leeway. The bend starts earlier on, and it looks like no matter how close you cut it you will still clear the p/s system fittings sticking up, as well as the pulley. SO... I believe in order to gain the extra room that you will need to plunk the velocity stack on the end of the tube (maybe an inch?) you need one of the gentler bends.

any posting of dimensional info on what lengths to cut the different pieces would be greatly appreciated.Check Post #1. I put them up yesterday. Let me know if you have something different in mind.

Can you log the difference in MAP from one to the other? Or is that a can of worms you don't want to open? I believe I can get readings off my DashHawk for that PID. What are we looking for? Gimme a test protocol. I assume it would be WOT and compare the minimum readings?

As a side note, wouldn't it be great to identify an RPM/Throttle Angle opening relationship that correlates to BMEP (peak torque) and tune the length of the tube for best flow in that range? The results should flow up and down the curve. Like the original ram tuning but to a plenum, not individual runners.Stoppit. My eyes are bleeding.

Matt - box up either one and send it on down here... I'll get on the rollers for ya' (going anyways!) so, I'll let you know as soon as you want it to be known. ;)Thanks, but I am way far away from that at this point. I am going to be at SVS on the 21st to prep for Buttonwillow on the 24th and I don't think we will have time to strap it down even then. Maybe later. Lets play with this awhile and tune it.

About that thing I am not telling you guys about...

The wider radius bends that arrived yesterday are not smooth on their inner surface. Looks like machining marks from the mandrel bending process. Not sure if I got a bad batch or if thats normal for this kind of stuff. The cuts I would make on the 10" bend would largely eliminate the really crappy stuff but the 12" is gonna have it no matter what. Are these "cavitation" marks, for lack of a better term, deal-killers? Here is a full-size pic so you can see them (use your browser to view the pic full size).


http://foohbar.com/magnum/dsc02893.jpg

I wonder if this is something you have to live with on bigger bends... remember I am new to this stuff.

[seanol]

I believe I can get readings off my DashHawk for that PID. What are we looking for? Gimme a test protocol. I assume it would be WOT and compare the minimum readings?


If you log Baro for that run and also log MAP then you will see the difference between what your current outside pressure is and your manifold pressure, which is negative.

(If you know this, skip it. Otherwise... You will be negative in the manifold from the draw of the pistons pulling air through open intake valves. All things staying the same the closer you get to ideal intake design the closer you will get to positive. With valve overlap (intake and exhaust open) you can, at higher RPMs, have inertial supercharging, or small amounts of boost as the outgoing exhaust draws air through the open intake valve and manifold. Should you have too much overlap you will have reversion which will force incoming air out towards the throttle body, also a positive condition, but less desirable. All this means is that closer to measured baro pressure means you are pulling the most air possible.)

(Please understand that this ignores many aspects of cam design and tuning, but since we are only looking at an intake and all else is the same it shouldn't matter.)

(I am also not a vehicle powertrain expert, I just play one on the internet):roll:

If you divide MAP by Baro you have PE ratio (I think, I've always called it V/E ratio but DCX may be different). Closer to 1 is closer to positive (good, using all the air available)and the opposite indicates a restriction or inability to use all available air. ( I am guessing this is like VE tables on other PCM softwares where you are looking at volumetric efficiency, ability to use all the volume of air available)

This would be most useful on a full throttle run so I would log RPM's as well. Do this in a lower gear and a higher gear and we will have a picture of ability to deliver air over very short and long periods of time.

Differences between the two will allow for some indication as to what the sweet spot may be.

A restrictive intake will not perform as well at longer run times as it will not be able to deliver all the air needed. Conversely an intake that is too big will suffer on the short run due to a slow down of air velocity. (of course there may be other things I am not seeing):panic:

On a side note, if you have the ability to log acceleration and graph it against rpm you will have an exact picture of your torque curve. Useful for gauging mods if you want to see if they work or not.


Stoppit. My eyes are bleeding.


Sorry, just trying to help...:Na_Na_Na_Na:

Thanks,
Sean

[MattRobertson]

um... So you want me to log baro pressure and MAP. During what? A WOT run from 0 to 60?

基本上，计算机只是处理数字。它们指定一个数字，来储存字母或其他字符。在创造之前，有数百种指定这些数字 的编码系统。没有一个编码可以包 含足够的字符：例如，单单欧州共同体就需要好几种不同的编码来包括所有的语言。即使是单一种语言，例如英语 ，也没有哪一个编码可以适用于所有的字母，标点 符号，和常用的技术符号。
这些编码系统也会互相冲突。也就是说，两种编码可能使用相同的数字代表两个不同的字符，或使用不同的数字代 表相同的字符。任何一台特定的计算机(特别是服 务器)都需要支持许多不同的编码，但是，不论什么时候数据通过不同的编码或平台之间，那些数据总会有损坏的 危险。

:Na_Na_Na_Na:

seriously, I appreciate the fac tyou know what you do. I just have NFI ... :D

[seanol]

Matt,
Just log a roll on at a known start RPM, like 2000 rpm. Do it in 2nd gear and again in 4th gear at the same RPM. Go to what ever RPM you are comfortable with, same for both runs, i.e. 2000 to 6000 in 2nd gear and 2000 to 6000 in 4th gear. If you are able...:racing:

Graph the two runs in excel and see what you get. If you can graph acceleration in longitudinal g's for both that would be great as well.

If you want to graph it, great, or send 'em over to me.

Thanks,
Sean

[MattRobertson]

Give me some time.... I've never used the datalogging feature of the DashHawk. It will do the graphing for us I am pretty sure. Or it exports to an excel spreadsheet. Not sure. Also this weekend is devoted to race prep. Next weekend is Buttonwillow but I will try to get this stuff fit in.

One of these days I am going to dig up my old G-Meter. I think I know where it is... I think. I am pretty sure there is no g-force readings in the DH.

[done]

Give me some time.... I've never used the datalogging feature of the DashHawk. It will do the graphing for us I am pretty sure. Or it exports to an excel spreadsheet. Not sure. Also this weekend is devoted to race prep. Next weekend is Buttonwillow but I will try to get this stuff fit in.

One of these days I am going to dig up my old G-Meter. I think I know where it is... I think. I am pretty sure there is no g-force readings in the DH.


He is just asking you to do the manometer tests a different way. The manometer test is alot easier to do (if you have the manometer).

[seanol]

Done,
Since we are against acceleration and not steady state it would be hard to get enough data points and graph against RPM. You can do it, but the passenger will be tired!:panic:

Your test is definitely the definitive on ram air effect, at least at the speeds we are looking at. But I am interested in the ability of Frank 4.0's ability to supply air under 2 very different conditions:

Very short duration across an RPM spread

Very long duration against the same spread

If you think I am treading water against the tide let me know, I don't want to waste anyone's time. I did a search and found a bunch of threads including the MOFO tests and your manometer test so if I missed something let me know.:)

Thanks for your input,:beerchug:
Sean

[magnumdude]

frankentake GB??? Need help? LOL

[MattRobertson]

frankentake GB??? Need help? LOL
Never gonna happen!!!!

http://www.forumsextreme.com/imgs1/sHa_joker.gifhttp://www.forumsextreme.com/imgs1/sHa_thumbsup3.gif

[MattRobertson]

Hey guys, I had the opportunity to dyno Frankentake IV today. Our jaws dropped in the control room when we saw the torque numbers flash past onscreen.

http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=147617

I have a velocity stack on order for a variant that I was going to make, since I have those other two bends and I realized my AirHammer filter has a 6" base. I may just leave things the hell alone now.

The short tubing definitely didn't hurt I bet :-)

[taki]

nice results...just to make sure, which radius aluminum tube did you use?

[MattRobertson]

6" centerline radius, 45-degree bend. 4" diameter. I put the cut specs in post #1 too.

[monty1269]

6" centerline radius, 45-degree bend. 4" diameter. I put the cut specs in post #1 too.


top middle or bottom in your pic?? :mrgreen:

http://foohbar.com/magnum/dsc02893.jpg

and how the h3ll do you resize images on here?? :wtf:

[taki]

i think its the top one...

[MattRobertson]

Jeez don't you guys read? I said which was which in the post that pic came from.

[BillyDsl]

Good to see you still so actively attack these mods.
And OMG, I found your new mods page, hope I can find it again, but I was just blown away with what you have done with your Mag. Many Kudos Matt..

Thanks :beerchug:
BillyD..

[Mymopar]

The FIII sat directly on that, and we still have loads of clearance above it. That tells me the smoother-transition 12" radius elbow would almost certainly work. Who wants to try it??



I'll try it. I have to make a mod to my engine bay and ditch the AFEII set-up I have. I'll order both the 12" and 6" and see what happens.

BTW correct me if I am wrong but going to 11 gauge wouldn't be thinner, it would be thicker. 16 gauge is the thinnest they have available.

[DanSS24]

OK, here is what I am seeing. I need the group to chime their thoughts in on this one as I am by no means an airflow expert, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

These are the three bends. 12" radius on the bottom, 10" and then the original 6" on the top, which I pulled out of the car and disassembled for the picture. The black lines on the two new ones are cut lines. On the left side, thats supposed to be the actua cut point. On the right, the dual lines indicate the position of the filter collar. I would cut on the outer line.

These were quick late-night, long-day-already measurements and I am pretty sure I can cut more off. But note that each radius requires that I keep on more alloy. That makes no sense to me but I mocked it up halfway intelligently, I thought. I stuffed the filter down as far as it would go on one end of the tube, and marked it (this is the inner line of the dual lines). Then I laid the pipe inside of the engine bay and marked where the elbow came up to it... allowing for some extra to give the elbow something to clamp on.

Pretty sure when I line it up for real, I will be able to saw some more off, but the proportion of error, if any, should stay the same.

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankentake4_08.jpg

But thats not the real issue as I see it. As I see it, while these bends are indeed more gradual, the fact is there is hardly any tube involved on the 6" radius bend. Thats obvious in the photo above, and more so when you just look down the thing and see right out the other side.

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankentake4_10.jpg
http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankentake4_09.jpg

Which begs the question: Is this worth messing with? Did I get it right the first time?

This is one awesome set up you got here. I think i am going to try the 12" radius pipe once global tech gets their web page up again. Need to fabricate a small bracket to hold the intake up instead of letting the filter rest on the hole. I noticed you had it resting on something with a 3M sticky pad. Wouldn't that eventually wear out due to vibration?

:racing:

[MattRobertson]

I noticed you had it resting on something with a 3M sticky pad. Wouldn't that eventually wear out due to vibration?In two years of abuse, it hadn't worn off the Frankentake III support. 3M tape (red double-stick body tape) is incredibly tough.

BTW I currently am using something different to line the sharp metal seam of the hole. If you take a 1-ply silicone hose or rubber heater hose, and slit it down its entire length, you have a neat, durable seam liner. I used 0.5" ID silicone hose because its all I had in the garage, and that is WAY oversized (but it works). 1/4" ID tubing - or smaller - would be ideal.

[DanSS24]

In two years of abuse, it hadn't worn off the Frankentake III support. 3M tape (red double-stick body tape) is incredibly tough.

BTW I currently am using something different to line the sharp metal seam of the hole. If you take a 1-ply silicone hose or rubber heater hose, and slit it down its entire length, you have a neat, durable seam liner. I used 0.5" ID silicone hose because its all I had in the garage, and that is WAY oversized (but it works). 1/4" ID tubing - or smaller - would be ideal.

Thanks Matt...This one of the best looking intakes I have seen. Not too flashy, not too plain, but just right. Maybe i'll paint the tube also. Thanks again. :rock:

[netnathan]

You could get it plated (this would look real nice). If you plate the inside it would smooth it out very well.

..

[DanSS24]

You could get it plated (this would look real nice). If you plate the inside it would smooth it out very well.

..

How do you do that?

[netnathan]

How do you do that?

Actually a pipe that big would easily plate inside and out as part of the normal plating process.


..

[Lik2race]

...I'm still using my "original" Frankentake III..
It's been on 3 different LX's, & is still going strong.
Thanks Matt..
Stan

[Mymopar]

Got the pipe in but still waiting on the other parts? Looks promising, I'll post up some pics once I get the rest of the parts.

[taki]

MattRobertson...i have a question on the S&B filter...

you used a 9" long S&B filter, is that the overall length, or is that just the filter media length? I am trying to get the largest filter to fit in the space ive got.

could you measure the overall length please?

[Lik2race]

MattRobertson...i have a question on the S&B filter...

you used a 9" long S&B filter, is that the overall length, or is that just the filter media length? I am trying to get the largest filter to fit in the space ive got.
could you measure the overall length please?

Presently, I am using a 10" filter, but I also have a 12" that also fits..just tighter,
and you may have to move the Power Steering fluid container.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j221/Lik2race/00BTIFront_Sides_Rear_2008Medium.jpg
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j221/Lik2race/09BTIEngineBay-1008Medium.jpg
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j221/Lik2race/09BTIEngineBay-1002Medium.jpg

[BillyDsl]

Got the pipe in but still waiting on the other parts? Looks promising, I'll post up some pics once I get the rest of the parts.
It's about time to clean up my FIII soon so anxious to see how this goes for you. Thanks for taking it one more step.

Thanks
BillyD..

[Mymopar]

Yeah the air filter was on back order, that is the hold up.

[MattRobertson]

MattRobertson...i have a question on the S&B filter...

you used a 9" long S&B filter, is that the overall length, or is that just the filter media length? I am trying to get the largest filter to fit in the space ive got.

could you measure the overall length please?9" is the media length. There is a 1.75" additional space added for the flange (mounting surface). Can it take a 10"? Maybe. 9" definitely. 10"... you'll know when you try to close the hood. And your results will vary a tad if you pick a different radius bend than I did... and remember my hood isn't stock.

I don't have an ability to measure the filter. I'm not at home, won't be back until at the weekend and the car is there. However if you go to sbfilters.com and go thru their filter configurator

(Products (http://www.sbfilters.com/products/index.php) » Universal Filters (http://www.sbfilters.com/products/universal_filters.php) » Round Filter with Flange)

You can see what they have. When you drill down to the filters that fit the criteria you set (its easy since most choices have only one option) make sure you pick one that says "SS PS" on it. Thats "Stainless Steel Power Stack". The power stack is the top end of the filter that has filtration material for extra capacity instead of a flat rubber cap.

You can get an excellent quality breather filter from sbfilters, too. I used Verocious Motorsports because I wanted more parts (clamps and stuff) but you can go straight to S&B.

[argentmag]

do you still think a thinner gauge tube might be better?

[mikesmagrt]

HAVE YOU TRIED WRAPPING THE PIPE WITH A HIGH HEAT INSULATION TO KEEP THE RADIANT HEAT OUT ?

MY WORK SELLS ALL KINDS OF HIGH HEAT INSULATION LIKE
http://www.johnstonesupply.com/33/OnlineCatalog/ProductDetails/tabid/1780/Default.aspx?Product_Code=R94-247

[MattRobertson]

I think thinner is always going to be better. Thinner shucks heat faster when ambient air blows on it. We're using some pretty thin stuff right now. I've seen thinner when we were doing Frankentake III, but not mandrel-bent. Still, the stuff I used is close to that thinness.

FYI everybody... don't know if I posted it up already, but I got a Spectre 4" --> 6" velocity stack from Summit for about $15. I used that, a silicone coupler and a couple of clamps to fit on the 8" AFE filter that belongs to my AirHammer. It fits, albeit *barely*. Vertical height is an issue - its a good thing the filter is 8" tall. I'm not sure a 9" would work. But also horizontal depth is an issue. The filter is fatter. I had to use some silicone tubing snips to protect some wiring and (brake?) lines that were in direct contact with the filter. Also because of the increased diameter of the filter, the alloy tube is angled back from the front a tad. Its no longer parallel to the fascia, in a matter of speaking.

I'm planning on posting up pics this weekend.

I wish it was an S&B filter with an open top, but it ain't and I'm not spending more money on yet another filter.

Runs fine. Not a clue if its any better or worse, performancewise. I may try and get it on the dyno when I go back to SVS in March for a little motor work.

[taki]

9" is the media length. There is a 1.75" additional space added for the flange (mounting surface). Can it take a 10"? Maybe. 9" definitely. 10"... you'll know when you try to close the hood. And your results will vary a tad if you pick a different radius bend than I did... and remember my hood isn't stock.



Thanks MattRobertson. its interesting to note that the S&B filters have a 1.75" flange, and from their website, i think they incorporate a velocity stack of some kind in the flange.

I am looking to buy a better quality filter for my $58 kool vue intake, and i think this new R2C filter will fit the kool vue velocity stack perfectly.

I am also thinking about buying a flat ended filter, and then bolting an L shaped bracket to the flat end, with one leg of the L to rest on top of the power steering reservoir. the point of this is to support that end of the intake.

[monty1269]

Have you seen the filter results from the Rev?? Thoughts?

[street hooligan]

you know i see tons on bad outing k/n on here, then i google it and search other car forums with other tests and they all show k/n to be the best out of what they test, and they test s/b and aem's, and greens, and many others

[MattRobertson]

Have you seen the filter results from the Rev?? Thoughts?Yeah I sure have, if you mean the crap ingestion and efficiency tests. I am always skeptical of manufacturer's tests but they seemed to go out of their way to make it conform to transparent standards. Whether it really did or not is anyone's guess, but my gut instinct says there's truth in there. Usually if someone is trying to fudge something there are warning signs I didn't pick up on there.

So the Rev's filter seems to be a very good choice. Maybe he'd sell some alone? The fact that its a tad shorter is a good thing for an F-IV since height is sort of kind of almost an issue when using the velocity stack I'll post up here over the weekend. I must say, though, that I still like the idea of an open end on that filter. Absent any flow numbers on either unit I could be just being a worrywort, but bigger has almost always turned out to be better on this platform.

Thanks MattRobertson. its interesting to note that the S&B filters have a 1.75" flange, and from their website, i think they incorporate a velocity stack of some kind in the flange.Its a half-assed one, but yes they do have a transition in there. I have NO idea how effective or ineffective it is, but hey... we saw the dyno results come out surprisingly well, so something in that mix is right, eh?

[concussion]

Matt, this thread just keeps getting better and better.
Cheers to ya.

:magburno:

[street hooligan]

matt you have to agree its so hard to dyno test filter results, i mean hell i saw 9rwhp from just letting the car sit for an extra 15 min between runs.

[MattRobertson]

you know i see tons on bad outing k/n on here, then i google it and search other car forums with other tests and they all show k/n to be the best out of what they test, and they test s/b and aem's, and greens, and many others
You know, the last multi-filter test I saw - wasn't a forum - that tested a K&N in the mix found it to let a *lot* of silica into the motor. This was back when I was using a K&N myself, and my solution was to add a drycharger prefilter to it. I haven't seen a K&N win a crud test, ever. Now, what I have seen them win consistently are flow-thru tests, and that makes for great performance numbers. But they accomplish that in a way I'm not willing to accept as acceptable performance for a filter. I know an S&B lets in less air, and I like it that way cuz my motor is receiving better protection. I spent a fair bit of time talking to the owner of S&B (there was a time when they were going to make a special down-angled-flange 11" filter for the Frankentake III project, which would have pre-empted the need for a Frankentake IV) and even though in my experience their management is a tad flaky, I remain impressed with their product, as I do AFe. The Rev's new white filter seems to also be a winner when you use the criteria of crud protection as the prime mover.

----

Plus I went from a booster of K&N products to one that will never touch them again after the way they behaved themselves, when asked to comment on their advertising claims (VERY respectfully) after GIFO1. They were claiming big gains in an LX world with ZERO tuning where it eventually became common knowledge (we knew so little then, remember) that the speed density system HAL soaked up all intake gains with adaptives. Yet they claimed gains. Which disappeared when the test was independent. Go back and see what they said when their hand was essentially caught in the cookie jar (although we weren't portraying it like that then). Its all still there.

And *then* they refused to honor their performance guarantee on the intake purchased for the test. Even though their terms were adhered to precisely. Complete with dyno runs as per their published rules.

K&N is a company that behaved dishonestly -- in public. They are a company I would never do business with and will always recommend against thanks to the unethical way they conducted themselves in those two episodes.

[MattRobertson]

matt you have to agree its so hard to dyno test filter results, i mean hell i saw 9rwhp from just letting the car sit for an extra 15 min between runs.
I do indeed. Thats why I ignore performance / hp tests on filters and go strictly for crud ingestion. However, when I see an intake of one design with a filter I know does a good job of filtration do a certain set of numbers, and then I see the identical design come along later and blow those numbers away... and the only change is a filter... that tells me that the 'new' product might be doing better with a loosey-goosey filter. Now we have a test out there on that new filter that seems to back up that supposition.

I'm being cagey and not quite naming names cuz I'd prefer to stay an observer as opposed to a combatant, but I think you can figure out who the players are that I am talking about.

[street hooligan]

yea. i understand, persoanlly though i dont mind. K/n, sb, aem, green, and all the rest let in particals so minute that once any particals make it in the combustion chamber, there gonna melted, or exploted, however you look at it. If you change your oil regularly you would be surprised how well the ****tyest filter will let the inside of a motor look like(like new)

true story right here, i am into VWs, and had an old 16v i bought with 120k on it, i slaped together a turbo kit and made the car my weekend warrior, stock 120k block, with 17lbs from a gt28rs and consistanly beat the snot out of it. i ran a wire mesh screen over the turbo inlet(no filter), i used synthetic oil and changed every 4k miles, and i ran it that way until the odo hit 167k and then sold the car to a friend, who still runs it that way and the other day i replaced the HG with a lower compression one so he can go with a laerger turbo and more boost and the motor looked SPOTLESS and didnt even have any discoloration.

i dont live nor drive in dusty conditions so i dont expect to ever have an issue of what filter lets in what ever microns of particals, anything considerd a micron wont hurt an engine if digested, it will just burn up

[Moe's Performance]

So you're the Frankentake guy. Scott/BT told me about the kit and that someone on LX came up with the idea.
I've had it on my car (now I'm assuming it's the Frankentake III). I really like it, great bang for the buck.

I agree that most intakes are overpriced.

I relocated my i.a.i. sensor by sticking it inside of a hose and routing it behind the passenger side headlight.

I also worked with Caspers Electronics on the I.A.T sensor 12" extension. I like this idea 'cause you don't have to drill the elbow and you can relocate the i.a.t.

BT offers them up in anodizing finishes or you can get it powder coated.

I have the polished one right now.

The S&B filter has an inverted cone. It's a GREAT filter. S&B makes filters for many intake companies including Volant.

Here's a pic or 2:

[Quicksilver83]

Nice job! It puts the filter at the same angle my intake setup did, only your's has more potential for powder coating. Where'd you get that angle length of pipe?

http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h182/BigOlly1983/BigOllyIntakeOverhead.gif

[Mymopar]

I should have the filter in by Monday. Testing out the pipe everything looks promising, but w/o the filter I don't know 100%, but it looks like it is a go. I'll know next week and can post pics.
The pipe is available from the links provided by the OP - http://www.globaltecheng.com/

BTW I just did the lower baffle mod to prepare for the new intake.

[MattRobertson]

Nice job! It puts the filter at the same angle my intake setup did ... Where'd you get that angle length of pipe?

Its linked in Post #1. And I mentioned you in that same post :-).

I didn't know anyone had posted into this thread (its a copy of the early days of the original, which has a lot more views and posts in the Intake/Exhaust/Performance area). I guess this post will subscribe me.

That original thread also has a lot more info pon alternate, smoother bends. And dyno results. You want to see those as it did amazingly well. I'll try and update this version of the thread so it has the meat of the other one in it.

[MattRobertson]

So you're the Frankentake guy. Scott/BT told me about the kit and that someone on LX came up with the idea.
I've had it on my car (now I'm assuming it's the Frankentake III). I really like it, great bang for the buck. Glad you like it. That was the whole idea of F-III. You can find a big how-to thread on it, complete with parts sources and step by step build instructions, here in the KB and another live one in the intake forum. The two have something like 6000 views and, not counting the BT versions now on the market, a LOT of them have been built. I'm really pleased BT is marketing them as a product if for no other reason then people will quit asking me to build them :D
I relocated my i.a.i. sensor by sticking it inside of a hose and routing it behind the passenger side headlight.

I posted up a thread entitled the ultimate in IAT sensor relocation (http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=144140) at the same time the F-IV was announced. I built that at the same time and it works *perfectly* in open air while at the same time being safe from the elements.

BUT...

You might want to re-think doing that in this world where we now have tuning. That thread has quite a bit of discussion on the subject you might want to check out.

The S&B filter has an inverted cone. It's a GREAT filter. S&B makes filters for many intake companies including Volant. Yeah I have always liked their products even if their management proved to be a bit flaky. I spent a fair bit of time with the owner, who promised to make a special 11" offset-angle flange filter for F-III. If he had done it as promised, the filter itself would have dipped down, there never would have been a need to go for F-IV and he would still be selling the things.

On the F-IV, I have since added, but not yet posted up, a version that uses a 4" --> 6" velocity stack that has my old airHammer filter stuck onto it. No numbers on it but its an interesting variation. I might dyno it in March when I get the car back into the shop for some minor motor work.

[argentmag]

Matt I'm super psyched about doing F IV, but I didn't see where the gas recirc hose goes or the sensor. Did you replace one with the little breather?

[Mymopar]

Matt I'm super psyched about doing F IV, but I didn't see where the gas recirc hose goes or the sensor. Did you replace one with the little breather?

From one of hisposts, he excluded the breather hose and went with an external breather. I guess the BT intake doesn't have a breather hose either. As far as the sensor goes, he outlined the steps to do it and locate it. Are you using the 6"or 12" radius?

[MattRobertson]

What mymopar said :-)

I gave complete instructions, with options, on how to drill the sensor into the elbow in the Frankentake III thread, so I didn't repeat them here.

[argentmag]

I'll be using the 6" tube

[argentmag]

also, I figured out what's needed matt, thanks

[MattRobertson]

no sweat. And if I didn't say it in the thread on the elbow-drilling part, try something just a *hair* smaller than the diameter of the sensor if you want to go commando on the gasket and just stick the sensor in by itself, bare. I've never tried it but I bet if you go a touch smaller (just a touch) you can stuff it in and it'll seal nice and tight. If not, you can always drill it out or file it some. 1st Rule of Gunsmithing: Its easier to file metal off than it is to put it back on :D

[argentmag]

I ordered the tube and filters- backorder on filters - I'm planning on getting elbow and clamps local. You've got me thinking about the 12" although I ordered the 6. What would the 12 give over the 6 - longer,smoother bend - better flow?

[MattRobertson]

That was the idea but it may not pan out. Look for the other F-IV thread thatthis one was copied off of when it was only 2 or 3 posts long. Lots of folks a lot smarter than I debated it, and I have pics of two wider bends that I bought later and didn't use once I saw this one dyno.

[argentmag]

Matt, I can't see where the crankcase breather is going to mount - I don't see the same spot where yours sits - on my motor.

[MattRobertson]

You probably have a 5.7 motor. Take a look at the pic in Post #9, at the very top. You can see his breather there. I believe its extended to clear his plastic covers, and you have to do the same with a bit of hose to clear the Dodge engine cover. I don't use covers personally, due to motor cooling issues.

[Magnum Power]

Take a look at this thread http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=147406

Some members have been discussing the issue here as well as posting solutions. Seems that everyone has a different set up but as loog as it works its all good.

[MattRobertson]

Take a look at this thread http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=147406

Some members have been discussing the issue here as well as posting solutions. Seems that everyone has a different set up but as loog as it works its all good.
Well, those are the retail Frankentake III's that BT is supplying the breather for, and which apparently has some fitment issues. Here we're talking about the build-it-yourself Frankentake IV with a breather part specified that I will guarantee you will fit easily and directly onto the manifold bung... assuming you want it to fit, since guys with engine covers need to fit it to a hose to get past that cover.

[Mymopar]

Well I got all parts in and mocked up, looks like the 12" radius works good. I'll post pics tonight.

[MattRobertson]

cool! Are there machine marks (little waves) on the bend or is it smooth? Mine had marks. I'd really like to see a closeup to see if yours are worse or better if they're there. They were almost nonexistent on the 6" bend, and much smaller and more closely spaced. I'm trying to figure out if I got a bad tube or this is what you get from a primarily industrial HVAC supplier.

[Mymopar]

cool! Are there machine marks (little waves) on the bend or is it smooth? Mine had marks. I'd really like to see a closeup to see if yours are worse or better if they're there. They were almost nonexistent on the 6" bend, and much smaller and more closely spaced. I'm trying to figure out if I got a bad tube or this is what you get from a primarily industrial HVAC supplier.

The pipe is pretty marred up. I'll post some pics. I think some wetsanding with 800 grit should make it all smooth. Wanted to paint it but we'll see.

[MattRobertson]

hmmm. ok thanks. I'm used to seeing rub marks and stuff on the outside. the F-III tubes were the same way. I'll make up some closeups of what I am looking for. Also I have some contacts and I will see if I can learn anything.

[Mymopar]

Ok here it is thanks to Matt. This is the Frakentake IV with the 12" radius. First pics show the pipe and close up of the marring.

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa84/mymoparnet/Daytona/frankentake/IMG_3409.jpg

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa84/mymoparnet/Daytona/frankentake/IMG_3411.jpg

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa84/mymoparnet/Daytona/frankentake/IMG_3412.jpg

Those were for Matt and anyone curious as to what the surface will look like. It is not show quality unless you put some time into it wetsanding and polishing it, which can be done.

Ok so from there I cut the pipe. Using a band clamp as a guide I cut off 8.5" and 5.75". Your cut may vary but this worked for me:

Band clamp cutting guide
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa84/mymoparnet/Daytona/frankentake/IMG_3413.jpg

Left over cuts:
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa84/mymoparnet/Daytona/frankentake/IMG_3416.jpg

Now you clean up the pipe so no metal and debris is inside and set aside. I used a file to clean up the cut edges. I also used a 4.5" angle grinder with cut off wheel to make the cut, about 30 seconds a side :)

Cut pipe:
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa84/mymoparnet/Daytona/frankentake/IMG_3422.jpg

For the elbow the IAT sensor is approx .51 inches in dia. I used the "make the hole a bit smaller and stuff it in there method" but you can do the grommet method. I'll see how this way works and then move to grommet if needed.

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa84/mymoparnet/Daytona/frankentake/IMG_3421.jpg

I used a unibit to make the hole in the elbow, location is up to you. If you are going to drill it I'd use a 7/16 bit.
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa84/mymoparnet/Daytona/frankentake/IMG_3423.jpg

Now I also didn't bother with doing the breather line. Again it is a modification I can add to the pipe. I'll tig weld a nipple to it if I deem it neccessary.
For now I used a breather and bent a 90 degree elbow out of some pipe so the breather doesn't stick straight out, looks more finished/custom this way.
Here are the completed installed pics:
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa84/mymoparnet/Daytona/frankentake/IMG_3425.jpg

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa84/mymoparnet/Daytona/frankentake/IMG_3427.jpg


Again I can't thank Matt and the other members of this forum for posting such creative ideas. I did the lower radiator baffle mod and can't wait to see how this performs. One major observation is that from my AFE II set-up, the filter on the Frankentake is SO MUCH BIGGER.
Also I noticed that if you really wanted to tuck the filter down in the open bay, a shorter filter will do better and you'd probably only need to cut 6 inches off instead of 8.5 inches. But with the S&B filters being far superior in filtration, you'd want the larger filter area because of some reduced flow.
Lastly, I am looking at putting a shield over the top of the area. I figure by doing this, the incoming airflow will flow over the filter and out the side. To me this seems like ti will hel ppull any heat away from the set-up better than just that area being all open.

Thanks again lxforums!

[MattRobertson]

Wow. Excellent. Thanks for the closeup shots. Stuff like this only makes the project that much better for everyone. I was worried that your mandrel bends had a kind of series of waves on the inside radius that my two larger-radius bends had. Yours looked totally smooth. This confirms I just got a bad batch.

Also, since the tube vendor is purely an industrial supplier, the finish on the metal is what I'd expect, what I got from them and what I got from two other vendors when I bought tubing for several dozen Frankentake III's we built for a fundraiser a couple years ago. I sanded and painted my personal F-III, but I'm sure that you could polish it if you wanted.

So where does the filter sit with the 12" radius? With the 6, it sits directly on the airhole, which I have lined to keep from rattling.

Have I mentioned that I put on a velocity stack on mine, and used an 8" filter I had to fit in the same space? I'd write it up and post pics but my camera is somewhere in the Magnum and its packed for the track next week.


edit: Where did you source the silicone elbow? Impression on its quality?

[Mymopar]

The bottom or inside curve on the elbow is smooth which would be from being mandrel bent. If yours was kinked it was compression bent like most exhaust shops do. Not seeing a picture I could be wrong though. The quality of the pipe and bend is top notch so I would recommend the vendor Matt used highly for any other project that might need tubing.

Now as far as where the filter sits, you can adjust it anyway you want, but like you, I have it so that the inverted cone part of the filter sits over the hole in the fender. It doesn't touch anything and I feel with the lower baffle mod this will get a good blast of air.

I saw a thread title about a velocity stack but didn't read the thread. Do you think it is a worth while mod? Can you link me the thread?

Lastly, the silicon elbow I got from siliconeintakes.com (http://www.siliconeintakes.com/) along with the t-bolt clamps. At first I was a bit leary as the silicone seemed rather flimsy I guess compared to a rubber elbow. I was concerned that the weight of the tube and filter would bend or kink the silicone. Well no need to worry. The t-bolt clamps fit perfect and the silicone elbow tightened up nice and held the position even with the weight of the pipe and filter. For those that do this and have a red or blue car, you can get a matching elbow.

So all in all, Matt posted the best links to source the parts from and the project takes no more than 1 hour to do from start to finish.

Unfortunately it snowed last night so I didn't get a chance to drive the car, but on Monday I will when I get my new shoes.

[MattRobertson]

The bottom or inside curve on the elbow is smooth which would be from being mandrel bent. If yours was kinked it was compression bent like most exhaust shops do. Not seeing a picture I could be wrong though.

No, these marks come from the inside and are from the mandrel-bending device. I can see the same marks in your pictures, but they must be small enough that you either can't feel them as undulations, or haven't noticed them yet. Look at the wave marks in this picture. Look to the bottom of the pipe, underneath the shine left by the flash. You can see them there on both sides of the hose clamp (damn good idea to use that as a guide, by the way).
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa84/mymoparnet/Daytona/frankentake/IMG_3413.jpg

Now look at one of my pics from the other, bigger F-IV thread (damn we should move threads to the KB... not copy them so this dual-thread business doesn't happen):

http://foohbar.com/magnum/frankentake4_08.jpg

See the marks? Look to the inside radius. You have the same only your closeups indicate its very smooth. For the two mandrel-bent pipes above, it was a fairly significant set of undulations.

That other thread, BTW, is here (http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=144147) and it has quite a bit more info in it.


Now as far as where the filter sits, you can adjust it anyway you want, but like you, I have it so that the inverted cone part of the filter sits over the hole in the fender. It doesn't touch anything and I feel with the lower baffle mod this will get a good blast of air.Yup.

I saw a thread title about a velocity stack but didn't read the thread. Do you think it is a worth while mod? Can you link me the thread?That was probably one of Street Hooligan's threads. He was using a 3.5" stack. You have to use a 4" stack and only Spectre sells one that I have found. There's no thread yet as I haven't written it up. It'll go in this thread. As to whether its worthwhile... not a clue. I just did it because I was curious. The F-IV with the 6" radius dyno'd so well I'd have to wonder if there's any more to be gotten out of the thing. I used my left-over AirHammer filter, which has a 6" base and an 8" length. It also needed a silicone connector and an extra t-bolt clamp, which I had on hand.

Lastly, the silicon elbow I got from siliconeintakes.com (http://www.siliconeintakes.com/) along with the t-bolt clamps. At first I was a bit leary as the silicone seemed rather flimsy I guess compared to a rubber elbow. I was concerned that the weight of the tube and filter would bend or kink the silicone. Well no need to worry. The t-bolt clamps fit perfect and the silicone elbow tightened up nice and held the position even with the weight of the pipe and filter. For those that do this and have a red or blue car, you can get a matching elbow.I have heard their silicone is not the best, but its also only $19.99 for a reducing elbow with a smooth radius versus about $50 elsewhere. I wouldn't suspend the thing like that. What I did was rest the filter on the hole itself and use silicone hose slit lengthwise to line the hole edges so there was no rattling. Support issues (which may take time to creep in but they will creep in) solved. Street Hooligan used some el cheapo fuel line to do the same hole-liner thing and thats probably a better solution than the 1-ply silicone I used.

[Mymopar]

I see what you are refering to about the bend. I'll check again tonight, but on mine that inside bend was smooth on both the in and outside of the pipe. I can see the wave forming but I imagine with the bend being a bigger radius it helps eliminate that from happening.


I have heard their silicone is not the best, but its also only $19.99 for a reducing elbow with a smooth radius versus about $50 elsewhere. I wouldn't suspend the thing like that. What I did was rest the filter on the hole itself and use silicone hose slit lengthwise to line the hole edges so there was no rattling. Support issues (which may take time to creep in but they will creep in) solved. Street Hooligan used some el cheapo fuel line to do the same hole-liner thing and thats probably a better solution than the 1-ply silicone I used.

I agree, I probably didn't make myself clear but I am using a support to hold the intake tube up and am not relying on the elbow for support. Good looking out for me and anyone else, don't rely on the elbow for support. Over time and with heat I can guarantee that something will happen and it probably wouldn't be good.

BTW, have you thought about making the hole in the fender any bigger? I was tempted to get the plasma cutter and open that sucker up.

[MattRobertson]

I can see the wave forming but I imagine with the bend being a bigger radius it helps eliminate that from happening.It was acutally worse on the wider bends. I have a 6" (which I cut down and used), 10" and 12" radius. You could surf on the 10 and 12 and the 6 was little more than markings. Tells me they either have uneven quality control or I just had bad luck.

BTW, have you thought about making the hole in the fender any bigger? I was tempted to get the plasma cutter and open that sucker up.Yes. I considered some way to make about a 4.25" hole as part of a 4"-tubed Frankentake V: a GSM/Hennessey style intake that pulls air from down low. I measured out which radius worked best and everything. Trouble for me is I can't fit a filter down there *comfortably* because of my brake ducts. Also I talked to Cam about it and making a smooth full-circle hole down there is easier said than done. I was going to keep the tube from rattling with a simple silicone reducing sleeve. The reducer would be 4" ID and double as a support for the tube since it would sit on top of the hole thanks to the diameter-increase side's shoulders riding on the hole's edge.

http://intakehoses.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=R20FB-400-425&Category_Code=RSS1

[Mymopar]

Interesting idea with the hole. I know you can get a hole saw big enough but also an air body saw would work very well in that tight space. I was thinking of angling the hole so the filter continues on its track with no major bends or 90*. The 12" radius would allow this to happen but because the filter wouldn't be going straight in, I have to research how I will measure that to cut it. The other part is that the whole filter wouldn't protrude through, just most all of it would.

[MattRobertson]

The way I had it worked out (http://www.lxforums.com/board/showpost.php?p=1961045&postcount=46) with 3.5" tubing and a 15" radius, it would give a 22" drop (maximum, counting the full length of the downward tangent tubing) and work fine. It was just a matter of how much of the tangent tubing you were going to cut off on either side. I'd think a 12" radius 90-degree bend would fit fine.

here is the 16-gauge, 12" radius tube (http://www.globaltecheng.com/ProductCart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=822&idcategory=65). Unless I am missing something on how to measure a radius, the 18" radius should be workable as well. The tube would go out towards the fender a max of 7" in a straight line. You'd probably cut all 7" of the top tangent off, or darn close to it. Then you drop 18" until you get to the bottom of the radius and the next 7" of tangent starts. I do not remember off the top of my head how far down the drop to the hole is. But if its 18" or more from the top of the elbow you are set, right? Leave on an inch or two at the bottom radius to go thru the hole and attach a filter and you are done (after you stick on the sleeve to cushion the hole).

If the distance downward is less than 18" then yeah you'd better go 12" radius...

[Black Beast]

dam good work on the intake what works better the 90 bend or the 45 bend i look to try it out i have the 5.7 with some mods hit me back a.k.a black beast

[05nvrL8]

ok... so with all the modifications... what seems to be the best route for the FIV?? yall keep changing it to much on me :)

and im getting ready to order parts in the next few weeks...

[street hooligan]

matt, ever think about a frankentake 4,5 beta, maybe drop the pipe through the hole in the core support like a gsm, hennasy, rdp unit????? you know you wanna!!!!!!

[bigkevin20]

Looks nice. Wish some body wold have tested my intake. lol

[Mymopar]

Matt, that is an interesting idea. I didn't think of having the pipe go through the hole and then attach the filter. My thought with this is that the filter would have to be smaller which to me would negate the purpose of the project.
I'm not even sure if any gain would be had by getting the filter lower. Perhaps just opening up the hole area is all the would be required.

[MattRobertson]

My thought with this is that the filter would have to be smaller which to me would negate the purpose of the project.
Bingo.

I'm not even sure if any gain would be had by getting the filter lower.

what works better the 90 bend or the 45 bend

First off, nobody knows the answer and anyone who says they do haven't done their homework, or they have emotions invested and thats doing the talking for them.

Perhaps just opening up the hole area is all the would be required.Its the 'perhaps' part that is the kicker. We KNOW this 45-degree bend improves the air temperature situation significantly... although its still just trying to make the best of a bad situation in hot weather or when stationary. It has *lots* of airflow and dynos VERY well up against what was once the industry leader (as in: it beat it handily).

We also know that the GSM/Hennessey style of intake has cooler temps, but has a more restricted airflow, thanks both to the 90-degree bends and tube length, plus the limitation to 3.5" pipe. Is the loss of airflow compensated for by the temperature drop? The street and track tests at MFO6 were ruined by weather. Nobody can say either way objectively.

HOWEVER... what if we could overcome the airflow issue with... bigger pipe? I have some flow numbers on 3.5" vs. 4" pipe that are impressive for the 4" and sucky for 3.5". The trick is fitting the damn thing. Nobody has tried it, and doing a 4" version of the design GSM and Hennessey (I forget which came first) essentially pioneered is not simple given the hole size is less than 4"... so you have to do some machine work.

This is all part of why I have been saying Cam's Double Whammy intake is going to be the one that makes the REAL power. He has overcome the limited airflow inherent to the GSM/Hennessey style.

[MattRobertson]

Dude where have you been? I already spec'd that unit out? :D I'd use a monster 18"-radius bend for the smoothest flow on the planet, and 4" tubing for airflow like nobody's ever seen. I've got a cheap, unique idea for keeping the tubing from rattling in the hole... The only unknown is how big of a filter you can get away with down there.

And I *probably* can't do it myself based on my looking down the hole and seeing my brake ducts down there. Remember those? My front end setup is different thanks to powered brake ducts.

And we're talking about exactly that in the other F-IV thread. The one in the Knowledge Base. I think I am going to merge the two so we don't have two discussions going on about this.

[MattRobertson]

OK guys, using my superpowers for good this time instead of eeeeeville, I merged the two F-IV threads into one; keeping the one that was in the Knowledge Base. There was a lot in each thread that wasn't in the other one, so now its all in one spot.

So if you come upon this thread after the fact and it looks like there are two sets of conversations going on... thats exactly what was happening up to now.

[netnathan]

Dude where have you been? I already spec'd that unit out? :D I'd use a monster 18"-radius bend for the smoothest flow on the planet, and 4" tubing for airflow like nobody's ever seen. I've got a cheap, unique idea for keeping the tubing from rattling in the hole... The only unknown is how big of a filter you can get away with down there.


I had a GSM and was looking at using a bigger filter. The only way you can fit a bigger filter in is to do a 90 after you go through the hole and then you have enough room for a good sized filter that is pointed forward to the back of the bumper. SRT8 folks will have to toss the brake cooling duct on that side.

[MattRobertson]

Screw that noise.

[street hooligan]

from my findings, between my AFE2, mopar, kool vue, rdp knock off (which i discoverd is a fujita basicly) and my frankentake 3 was that theres no difference in all of them, they all preform the same, how ever my srtbox fed with air ducts did the best.

the rdp clone/ fujita clone came in at close second, then all the rest. i didnt do any extensive testing on the knock off unit but will soon. you simply cant go based off dynos for intake, you simply cant.

with the knock off unit its positioned in a way that the filter placement allows for a big filter ill get pics for you. but i am not sold on the 4 inch would be better than a 3.5 by much at all, maybe on matts monstrosity of a engine, but not on my dinky stock 5.7

[bigkevin20]

Yeah frozenboost.com and siliconeintakes.com are exactly the same company. The picture that frozenboost uses (the orange one watermarked "siliconeintakes.com" :-) ) is actually of a straight 90. The one at siliconeintakes.com (the blue one) is of the actual reducer. But they are the same product, design, price etc.

http://www.siliconeintakes.com/images/product/90_red_picture.jpghttp://www.siliconeintakes.com/images/product/90_reducer_blue_picture.jpg

I really came very close to buying this, but I was concerned about what would happen if I drilled into it for the IAT. I *know* how the rubber elbow behaves but drilling into silicone is an unknown to me. It seems like a *killer* deal - a silicone elbow for $19.99, and thats the site that sells t-bolt clamps for the lowest price on the web. A good place to get a combined shipping deal.

What did you do about the IAT? You drilled the elbow? Can you show us how it fit installed?

I didn't read the whole thread in detail but dont buy those silicone elbows they are so cheap and thin. Stick with the Airflo's thick strong and still flexible.

[taki]

seeing as how an internal combustion engine is basically an air pump, and we typically have 2 1/2" dual exhausts, a single 3.5" diameter intake has more area than the dual exhaust area. my thought is anything bigger on the intake side cant help very much because the exhaust is what constricts the flow...now, if you have better scavenging on the exhaust side (headers), then maybe a larger diameter intake would be beneficial...who knows.

[MattRobertson]

... i am not sold on the 4 inch would be better than a 3.5 by much at all, maybe on matts monstrosity of a engine, but not on my dinky stock 5.7I think thats a key point to reiterate. 3.5" tubing may be plenty for airflow on stock motors. The gains I see with F-IV may not exist on a 5.7 or even a 6.1. One thing we have seen, however, is that Mopar themselves upgraded the tubing to 4" on the Mopar performance intake, and apparently used the same rubber elbow we all are to transition back to the throttle body. So there's some quasi-reliable confirmation that bigger = better on the bigger motor.

The strength of the short ram is airflow. The weakness is temperature.
The GSM style is the exact reverse. The trick may be to take the GSM style and give it a shot at decent airflow. Nobody knows yet. We need BOTH dyno testing and street + track before we can all do anything but guess.

my thought is anything bigger on the intake side cant help very much because the exhaust is what constricts the flow...now, if you have better scavenging on the exhaust side (headers), then maybe a larger diameter intake would be beneficial...who knows.
If you look back to, I believe GIFO3 or maybe 3.5 you'll see thats exactly what we found when we ran the tests with shortie headers added in. The point where, with stock tuning, an intake add-on gained power was I THINK with headers, midpipes and catback (but maybe just headers+catback)... you'd have to check the results to see exactly. Regardless of which point in the mod process it was, the K&N that CV used for that particular test finally gained I think 10 hp. Again it was some time ago so for the real deal go to the MFO archives and see the specifics there.

[street hooligan]

matt, i have a filter in my hands right now by k/n that will actually bolt right onto the throttle body, that way you eliminate piping. i can find a way to mount the iat in the filter, or right in the flow patch by extending the filter out some with a 2 inch straight pipe off the TB, wonder if this is worth looking into.

[seanol]

Street Hooligan,
Why can't you use a dyno to determine what intake makes more power? Unless you are changing airflow at a rate different that the acceleration of the vehicle, you will see the velocity increase in airflow matched with fuel from the computer.

This means that as you go faster the car adds fuel to the air at the same rate. Now if you have things like Ram Air, you will be unable to quantify its over all effect. But any changes to the intake path will show up as increased/decreased Horsepower/Torque.

Side note. When testing Ram air effect on some vehicles used for racing I found that in order to have ram air be effective, you had to pressurize a plenum to give a less turbulent air velocity to the throttle body. Plenums on ram air motorcycles were at about 3 liters for 1000cc. Scale that up to say a 310ci motor and you are looking at about 9.6 liters for a plenum. Did it work? Yes. But it was not fun to work on...

Look at a motorcycle. They have the ability to get to over 100mph easily (ram air doesn't start to work until at least 100mph depending on the plenum). Ram air works on them (when they were carbureted) by referencing incoming air to the float bowl vent. This means that as the incoming air pressurized the plenum, fuel in the float bowl was pressurized at the same pressure. This is a linear rate. If it was not, the carbs wouldn't work.

I was able to do some extensive testing on the ram air WS6 firebird. In testing the ram air hood actually restricted air flow above 100mph. Once the ram air was disconnected the car made more power on the dyno and at the track. the plenum size was too small.

I am not trying to give you a hard time. Just trying to show what my experiences have been in working on some of this stuff for a couple of years.:panic:

If you were not referencing ram air effect, what else would lead you contribute to the differences between your testing and the dyno? (This is an actual question, not rhetorical and not meant as a stab at ya)

Thanks,
Sean

[taki]

ive been kicking around my own idea for an intake, so here goes:

what i would really like to try is a velocity stack directly attached to the tb. Then, the large diameter end of the velocity stack in a sort of "plenum" if you will (not just a tube that fits on to the velocity stack), with a filter attached somewhere down towards the bottom of the plenum in the same area that the FI IV puts the filter.

the idea behind this concept is this would eliminate all restrictions associated with the shape or diameter of the tube, and you get ultra smooth laminar flow into the tb by putting the velocity stack right at the tb. if youre able to put enough filter area into this plenum, then you minimize the losses due to the filter.

if i ever stop working 60+ hours a week, i might try to fab something up...but, again, i dont have better flowing heads, headers, or a cat back, so for now, if my idea did work, it really wouldnt help on my car. another problem is theres not much space to work with just in front of the tb.

[street hooligan]

awsome idea, but you have to remember, you can smooth out the airflow all you want, but once it gets past the tb, its gonna become very distorted and mangled up in intake manifold. velocity stacks work great when using a smoothed ported intake mani that a single plenum, like on a 4cylinder, and inline engine.

when you install one on the end of a intake tube you will smooth out flow to the tube, but re arrange in the intake mani.

[MattRobertson]

matt, i have a filter in my hands right now by k/n that will actually bolt right onto the throttle body, that way you eliminate piping. i can find a way to mount the iat in the filter, or right in the flow patch by extending the filter out some with a 2 inch straight pipe off the TB, wonder if this is worth looking into.
Thats been tried and the result was a power loss. Was taken as evidence that the smoothness of the airflow is a factor along with its quantity. Thats also been the generally accepted reason why guys who run a bare TB with no filter don't get miraculous increases either. Pretty sure that was tested once at an early GIFO (the bare throttle body with no filter))

[taki]

awsome idea, but you have to remember, you can smooth out the airflow all you want, but once it gets past the tb, its gonna become very distorted and mangled up in intake manifold. velocity stacks work great when using a smoothed ported intake mani that a single plenum, like on a 4cylinder, and inline engine.

when you install one on the end of a intake tube you will smooth out flow to the tube, but re arrange in the intake mani.


totally agree, my idea was mostly trying to minimize the restrictions due to tube bends or tube diameter.

[CRF450RR]

I'm not trying to be a dick but, your intake looks just like a Bwoody short ram. The only thing different on yours is the elbow and you saved over $200...

http://estore.websitepros.com/802805/Detail.bok?no=1560

[Lik2race]

I'm not trying to be a dick but, your intake looks just like a Bwoody short ram. The only thing different on yours is the elbow and you saved over $200...

http://estore.websitepros.com/802805/Detail.bok?no=1560

...Hmm, maybe it's just me, but I think THAT's a GOOD thing !

[Mymopar]

I'm not trying to be a dick but, your intake looks just like a Bwoody short ram. The only thing different on yours is the elbow and you saved over $200...

http://estore.websitepros.com/802805/Detail.bok?no=1560 (http://estore.websitepros.com/802805/Detail.bok?no=1560)

Hmm does his intake look like a Bwoody OR does the Bwoody look like HIS intake? The world may never know.

[CRF450RR]

...Hmm, maybe it's just me, but I think THAT's a GOOD thing !


Did I say it was a bad thing?

[street hooligan]

Hmm does his intake look like a Bwoody OR does the Bwoody look like HIS intake? The world may never know.

bwoody short ram was out last year.

[CRF450RR]

bwoody short ram was out last year.


It's been out for at least a year or more. I was looking at the Bwoody CAIs when I bought my GSM in mid 07.

[MattRobertson]

I wasn't aware it existed when I set up the F-IV. F-IV's existence can easily be traced back to F-III around two years ago. You'll see posts in the F-III thread where I am talking about working with S&B to make a special filter for F-III that has an offset flange to... bend the filter down into the cool airflow, which we are now doing with a curved tube. S&B never came thru as you can see if you read thru the thread, and F-III was a straight tube. By then I was sick of screwing with it. Especially after we built about 40 of them for a fundraiser (never again!)

Two years later, F-III dynos very well at MFO6, and QuickSilver83 shows off his variant, that uses a rubber 45-degree elbow. With intakes back on my radar and a desire to 'finish' F-III, I google "mandrel bent elbows (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=mandrel+bent+elbows&btnG=Search)" and find a $15 solution almost immediately.

So if you're counting such things, the genesis of the idea itself can be traced waaay back. The original solution I put forward and tried to have manufactured would STILL be the best option: An 11" filter with 45-degree offset flange, 4" opening, 6.5" base and 5.5" open ended cap.

http://www.sbfilters.com/img/dimensions/full/1.jpg

... but nobody is making the filter. So we bend the tube.

[Leadfootluke]

Per this thread 4 months ago (holy crap that was a while ago) http://lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=134325

The Bwoody is since down to $299, but the Frankentake still blows it out of the water in price. Matt, any idea what the Cobra elbow is worth vs the silicone? (or another thread that I missed where you pointed that out)

uh...

:popcorn:

ok I'll say something useful:

Regarding the two intakes Leadfootluke put up, both look interesting.

The bwoody is pointing right smack down perfectly into the ambient air pocket created by the lower baffle mod. And its a nice big filter. This was what I was going to make with Frankentake IV but never did. The elbow looks sketchy.
The XD intake looks to have a heat shield sorta kinda wrapped around its oiled foam filter. That could be big on the plus side. But its only sucking in air from that hole on the end. But its from a venturi.Plusses and minuses. Only way to tell is to put them to the test, but 9 intakes = more time and more money. I'm in for a few bucks as usual.

CV... we need sponsorship levels like last time? Or are you doing the "silent action" for all of it? I have enough crap hung off my car I think, unless you get some really, really cool stuff to give away.

[MattRobertson]

Wow I must have been shooting up that day... absolutely no recollection of that post or seeing the thing before someone pointed out early on (in this thread, IIRC) that the BWoody and F-IV were essentially the same thing.

Clearly, there's only so much you can do with a tube and a filter. But still, I'd rather have the angled filter and the short, straight tube... Unless the dyno runs suck.

As for the cobra head, no... absolutely no idea as to comparative performance. I looked into it awhile back ... I wonder if it was this thread above that got me into it?... I remember asking "what the hell kind of elbow is that?" somewhere and someone educated me with some links. I don't remember finding anything definitive with respect to comparative performance. Supposedly they flow well.

[street hooligan]

in theroy i would think the cobra would flow like crap compared to a 90 degree bend that nice and smooth, right matt?

anyone wanna see pics of my new intake?

[MattRobertson]

I would think so, but I've read some stuff that alleges there is some magic in the cobra head design that is wonderful. I haven't got a clue if its true.

Yes I want to see it but start your own thread, butthead!

:Na_Na_Na_Na:

Seriously. There's no law that says only my home-made intake threads can be in the KB. Write that sucker up and, if it sucks good, we can move it in here.

[Leadfootluke]

I would think so, but I've read some stuff that alleges there is some magic in the cobra head design that is wonderful. I haven't got a clue if its true.

Yes I want to see it but start your own thread, butthead!

:Na_Na_Na_Na:

Seriously. There's no law that says only my home-made intake threads can be in the KB. Write that sucker up.

I think the cobra head is only for situations when there is no alternative in the form of an elbow. But I have seen some big cobra heads where an elbow could have been implimented.

[MattRobertson]

I would agree, if for no other reason than if they were so great, why doesn't everyone use them all the time?

Here's a blast from the past that I came across by accident when looking for something else in the GIFO threads this evening: This is the second Weapon-R prototype on my car back at GIFO4 in May 2006.

Looks like they did the filter curtsie bit first, then. The way I remember it, that open-topped filter was supposed to fit right over the hole and a hose was meant to attach directly to a fitting on the filter, go down the hole and thru the lower baffle mod - that they figured out for the first time and we all take for granted now - for a ram air source. Boy have we ever come a long way since then.

http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/CoolVanilla/GIFO4/DennisG_11.jpg

[street hooligan]

matt what size grommet do i need for the IAT sensor, i need one for my new intake and wanna know what size to get, my local napa dealer says they have all sizes but i dunno what size i need.

[Mymopar]

matt what size grommet do i need for the IAT sensor, i need one for my new intake and wanna know what size to get, my local napa dealer says they have all sizes but i dunno what size i need.

THe IAT diameter is .51 inches. Knowing this I would get a grommet that has an ID of .5 inches and the OD will be whatever comes with a .5 ID. Also go with a 3/16 groove if you can.

[MattRobertson]

matt what size grommet do i need for the IAT sensor, i need one for my new intake and wanna know what size to get, my local napa dealer says they have all sizes but i dunno what size i need.
Here's what I used. Its from Western Rubber and they are especially thick to fit thru the heavy rubber elbows I used for F-III. I still have like 20 of them left cuz I had to buy them in bulk. The gimmick was getting a grommet whose thickness (B) was right. But if you don't have to do that, its a lot easier to souce. I bet OSH or Home Depot has them in their knick-knack racks.. The aisle with all the goofy pulleys and casters and such. Note the minimum hole this thing needs is 13/16". I used a 7/8" hole saw (NOT a drill bit... makes a cleaner hole) and the fit is perfect.


http://store.westernrubber.com/images/search.jpg
A. Inside Diameter 1/2
B. Groove Width 3/16
C. Groove Diameter 13/16
D. Outside Diameter 1 1/16
E. Overall Thickness 7/16

Also remember that if you have one of those thick rubber elbows, you can skip the grommet entirely and drill straight in with a 7/16 bit.

This post has more grommet and bit details (http://www.lxforums.com/board/showpost.php?p=469686&postcount=3).

[argentmag]

Well, I got my filters and elbow yesterday, so it's all on today! I have the 6" pipe.The clamps I got from napa, and was told they'd actually need to be larger-so I ordered as such, then,the 3.5" was TIGHT, but it went on with a tiny bit of silicone lube. My tube was also marred, but I figured that was just mandrel bending. I was a little sloppy with the hacksaw on the cutting, but it seems to fit up well. I went with the breather and bought 2 hose connectors 1/2" OD - 1 straight, 1 90 deg bend, so I can go either straight out or out then up. Connectors from napa also. They're a little hard to push onto the stock hose that I cut, once again tiny bit of lube made a difference. I used a 7/16 drill bit on the elbow and just pushed the sensor in with lube and squeezing the elbow just right. I made 2 little errors; I broke the clip/lock piece for the IAT -sensor(what does that stand for?)while pulling it out of stock tube, but the unit seems to stay in anyway - and I'll keep an eye on it, and then I cut the stock recirc? hose too short, so I ordered another for 3 bucks at the dealer. I'm also looking for a support for the tube or filter, because it does give at the elbow.

[netnathan]

ive been kicking around my own idea for an intake, so here goes:

what i would really like to try is a velocity stack directly attached to the tb.
.

I don't think there is enough room to make decent a 4" to 3.5" velocity stack.
The problem here is if you use bigger than a 4" to 3.5" veocity stack at the TB you will only be able to use a "Cobra Head" to make the turn. I haven't seen anything larger in Cobra Head than 4".
I don't think a norrmal 4" 90 will fit with the veloctiy stack. The 4" 90 I have seen used on some CAIs are a very tight 90 which is bad on flow.
Remember this thread is based on smothing the flow from the filter to the TB.

See below..



in theroy i would think the cobra would flow like crap compared to a 90 degree bend that nice and smooth, right matt?

anyone wanna see pics of my new intake?

I have seen few posts of people that swear by this "Cobra Head".
If they are using a velocity stack below it, it may indead work very well. It may even be the gain from the velocity stack that impresses them.
You actually want to smooth the air right before the TB, that is why this is the perfect location for a velocity stack This is the "sweet spot" in the path of air flow in the CAI. The only velocity stack type you end up with is the 4" to 3.5" pipe reducer. You can not make a perfect velocity stack shape up in only 1/4" distance (per side in a 4" to 3.5" reduction)
You can use a "velocity stack style" reducer (4" to 3.5") anywhere in the system but the closer to the TB you are the better.

The "Cobra Head" does allow more air farther than the tube and I have seen the inside of them, and they may have a slight velocity stack that smoothes the air coming through the head. Actually all the bends are very smooth and not boxed. However it appears that if you use the optional adapter insert you will turbulate the air again, so I would nix this device.
http://intakehoses.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=90CB40&Category_Code=CHEW


..

[street hooligan]

you can smooth the air to the tb all you want, fact is though that once past the TB, its a freaking maze with lots of flat sports and turns and such. velocity stacks work best on carbs.

a smooth transition inside a tube, filter or bend is just that, a smooth transition. a velocity stack curves all the way around back into itself to create a vacume to help pull air inside of the stack. i used them before on my charger and a few other cars, sounds wicked and it a cool concept, but better used on carb applications.

[netnathan]

Did you know that spectre makes a 4" pipe with a 90 at one end and a 45 at the other?
Go to:
Catalog (lnk below)
Then...
> Air Intake Components (modular) > 4" Polished Aluminum Intake Tubes > near the bottom.
http://www.spectreperformance.com/#CATALOG


..

[netnathan]

you can smooth the air to the tb all you want, fact is though that once past the TB, its a freaking maze with lots of flat sports and turns and such. velocity stacks work best on carbs.

a smooth transition inside a tube, filter or bend is just that, a smooth transition. a velocity stack curves all the way around back into itself to create a vacume to help pull air inside of the stack. i used them before on my charger and a few other cars, sounds wicked and it a cool concept, but better used on carb applications.


There is the same maze in the intake plenum below a carb.
The only reason folks think velocity stacks only work on carbs is because carbs have been used on engines for decades. There is an improvement to a EFI TB using a velocity stack but not as great as a carb. The shape of the velocity stack increases air flow due to the reducing in size. The shape smooths the air. A nice smooth air flow will move better thru the TB.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Velocity_stack

The design that you are talking about using before on your other cars.is more of a venturi design.

[street hooligan]

vertical intake manifolds used on carb pass are actually really pretty smooth and flow well compared to a horizontal intake mani's.

the velocity stack on typical horizontal V8 intake manifolds has a inlet on the front where a vertical is on the top and dead centered usually, this distrubutes the smoothed air evenly unlike the horizontal.

you are correct, but only 50% the reasoning behind the velocity stack is not just its reducing size, but its shape creates a vacume, wicki isnt right all the time ;)

[netnathan]

vertical intake manifolds used on carb pass are actually really pretty smooth and flow well compared to a horizontal intake mani's.

the velocity stack on typical horizontal V8 intake manifolds has a inlet on the front where a vertical is on the top and dead centered usually, this distrubutes the smoothed air evenly unlike the horizontal.

you are correct, but only 50% the reasoning behind the velocity stack is not just its reducing size, but its shape creates a vacume, wicki isnt right all the time ;)

Wicki is correct. I promise there is no vacuum created in a velocity stack it is the shape after the velocity stack that may create a vacuum.

A Velocity stack is what it is called and works so well because it :
(a) The "bell" shaped inlet smooths the air from ALL directions coming into the funnel on thbe way to the "stack"
(b) The reducing funnel shape speeds up the air (velocity) because of the reduction in size.

http://www.velocitystacksonline.com/files/2058553/uploaded/4%2520x%252080mm%2520Long.jpg

There is ashort stack on this example. I have seen stacks as long as 6" or more.
The length of the "stack" is also important to the power band, that is why you sometimes see different lengths on certain intakes.
At this time I don't think anyone knows what is the ideal length of the stack that is best for the 6.1 or if it will even fit if it is too long. However here you may be right..a horizontal intake may not really care about the length of the stack.

What this thread is really about is maximizng the hp gain of a CAI. Using a Velcoity Stack in this configuration is mostly about optimum delivery of air to the TB. If you use a more squared 4" to 3.5" reducer at TB inlet you will not be feeding the best air flow dynamics to the TB.
The dynamics of a velocity stack may improve air flow through the TB to feed air to the back of the horizontal manifold for better air flow to all cylinders. Compared to turbulated air coming throught the TB.....maybe?

By the way....here is a 3.5" to 6" Velocity Stack.
http://www.bpinitiatives.com/stacks.php

..

[Mymopar]

the IAT -sensor(what does that stand for?)

Sounds like you did a fairly good job. The IAT stands for Intake Air Temperature.

[street hooligan]

the bell is what creates the vacume. i worked at a machineshop that specialies in billet parts but for VWs (my real passion) while we flowed them in a flow chamber we saw a large vacume being created at the bell that actually pulled air in at a higher rate, later on our stack was copied by this company http://www.bpinitiatives.com/ lots of info on their site

[argentmag]

Sounds like you did a fairly good job. The IAT stands for Intake Air Temperature.

thanks for your input with all the info - between you and matt, I got 'er duunn. I'm happy with it - adds another level of sound when you punch it a little.

[street hooligan]

ha i just saw you posted the same company!


i actually lost about 13 ftlbs on an older vw when i ran a bpi stack.

my Throttle body now has a stack incororated inside of the inlet thanks to BT

[netnathan]

ha i just saw you posted the same company!


i actually lost about 13 ftlbs on an older vw when i ran a bpi stack.

my Throttle body now has a stack incororated inside of the inlet thanks to BT


That is the only place I have found that has a velocity stack connection to the Hemi TB. Of course now you have a 6" connection o deal with. Maybe a perfect spot to make a dual 3" intake system.


..

[05nvrL8]

just ordered all the stuff matt did... should have it done next week :)

[netnathan]

I wasn't aware it existed when I set up the F-IV. F-IV's existence can easily be traced back to F-III around two years ago. You'll see posts in the F-III thread where I am talking about working with S&B to make a special filter for F-III that has an offset flange to... bend the filter down into the cool airflow, which we are now doing with a curved tube. S&B never came thru as you can see if you read thru the thread, and F-III was a straight tube. By then I was sick of screwing with it. Especially after we built about 40 of them for a fundraiser (never again!)

Two years later, F-III dynos very well at MFO6, and QuickSilver83 shows off his variant, that uses a rubber 45-degree elbow. With intakes back on my radar and a desire to 'finish' F-III, I google "mandrel bent elbows (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=mandrel+bent+elbows&btnG=Search)" and find a $15 solution almost immediately.

So if you're counting such things, the genesis of the idea itself can be traced waaay back. The original solution I put forward and tried to have manufactured would STILL be the best option: An 11" filter with 45-degree offset flange, 4" opening, 6.5" base and 5.5" open ended cap.

http://www.sbfilters.com/img/dimensions/full/1.jpg

... but nobody is making the filter. So we bend the tube.




You mean like this......



http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa130/netnathan/My%20SRT8/CL-Filter.jpg




All I have to do is rip apart my C&L Remove the cast aluminum box add 90 at TB, straight pipe and turn this filter down.

The only downside of this filter is it does not have an open filter cone at the top to take advantage of the 3.5" fress air opening in fenderwell



..

[netnathan]

I know this is sort of ludicrous, and it would need a 115V inverter, but it puts out 1266CFM.

A 10" inlet duct fan would probably fit in the space for the stock air box......and...
mini blower for under $500.
http://www.fantech.net/fkd.htm


..

[street hooligan]

ebay is flooded with those, "electric supercharger"

would be really neat to see if id did anything, in theroy it should.

[netnathan]

ebay is flooded with those, "electric supercharger"

would be really neat to see if id did anything, in theroy it should.

That inlet duct fan on my link makes way more cfm than any ebay "electric supercharger".

It is still sort of a weird idea but it has more potential than a "tornado" or an ebay "electric supercharger". As I understand a 6.1L draws a little over 800cfm. So this fan could keep the TB slightly force fed.

..

[done]

Did someone say fan?

http://lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=115250&highlight=muffin

[MattRobertson]

Electric supercharger debates have raged for years. Primarily they center on whether the additional energy to run them robs the motor of more horsepower than the motor is capable of generating via the benefit of the 'forced induction'. I remember debates that raged with engineers versus the guy who developed one of if not the first electric supercharger - a guy named Mark Kibort that were quite brutal and extremely technical. I have had some correspondence with them and we would need two units mounted inline to produce meaningful boost to feed these big motors a few more HP.


Done's muffin fan makes one hell of a lot more sense imho. The only issue with a short ram is heat in the engine bay, and this is a $10 solution to that problem. I totally forgot about it, too!

[street hooligan]

i never really thought about the filter heat soaking either....the tube yea, but filter noo

[MattRobertson]

Well, if ambient air is being fed to the filter it helps deal with the tube as well. Done's temp readings show its not perfect but its definitely an improvement. With an F-IV you will need an 8" S&B filter to make it fit though.

Speaking of 8" filters, I've been meaning to post up the velocity-stack-equipped version of F-IV and this looks like as good of a time as any:

http://lelandwest.com/auto-tech/magnum/frankentake4_12.jpg

http://lelandwest.com/auto-tech/magnum/frankentake4_11.jpg

http://lelandwest.com/auto-tech/magnum/frankentake4_13.jpg

The velocity stack is from Spectre Performance (Part Number 9604) and was purchased from Summit Racing for about $15 shipped. The filter is my 8" AFE from my AirHammer, which has a 6" base that mates to the velocity stack (I wasn't going to buy yet another filter so the accident of having this filter on hand is why I did this at all).

A better filter choice would be an S&B 8" filter with a 6" base that has an open end, so it pulls air straight out of the hole.

The 8" length filter is bigger than it seems given its 6" base. You can see the filter tube is deflecting back due to the increased diameter of the filter. Note also I took a bit of silicone hose and used it and some zip ties to protect the things it was rubbing against.

You need to use the shorter filter to make up for the length needed by the velocity stack. You could also cut the tube -- and affect the filter angle -- but I have no interest in screwing up the original design I had, which dyno'd so well. I also have no idea if this is an improvement or detriment over the original F-IV. I may dyno it at some point. I do have it on the car and don't notice any difference, but butt dynos are worth the money you pay for them.

[05nvrL8]

i stared at those pictures for about 5 minutes until i noticed what the hell you were talking about :)

o and verocious is out of the S&B filters... and crankcase filters...

[MattRobertson]

yeah I just realized that myself. For everyone's sake: The filter is different and it is mounted into a 4" --> 6" velocity stack, which is attached to the tube via a silicone connector. The velocity stack adds about 2" to the length of the tube, which is why you must have a shorter filter.

05nvrL8: You can buy S&B filters directly from sbfilters.com

[netnathan]

I assume a 6" pipe would not fit, even if you twsited the 90 slightly down? Then you could move the Velocity stack down to the 90.

It would be real nice if there was enough clearance to run 6" all the way ot the TB then use the Velocity Stack there. "Monster CAI"

..

[duce]

ebay is flooded with those, "electric supercharger"

would be really neat to see if id did anything, in theroy it should.

Not true young man. It cant work. In order for it to make any change at all it must compress the air. The electric fan will just push air and not compress it. Blowing air does not compress air. I was too interested in an electric blower and researched the hell out of em and this was the answer I got. The air must be completely sealed from the outside. Meaning no space between the blades like a roots type. Otherwise the fan blades will just stall the air. Then again I may be wrong.

[netnathan]

Not true young man. It cant work. In order for it to make any change at all it must compress the air. The electric fan will just push air and not compress it. Blowing air does not compress air. I was too interested in an electric blower and researched the hell out of em and this was the answer I got. The air must be completely sealed from the outside. Meaning no space between the blades like a roots type. Otherwise the fan blades will just stall the air. Then again I may be wrong.

Depending on the "type" of fan..... blowing does make little compression but it can "push" the amount of air required by the TB. It probably will not even make boost (maybe a very little at low end??), but it should at least increase the negative pressure in the intake manifold across the rpm range.
Our engines are "air pumps" so the more air we supply the more it can pump.

I am not taking about a muffin style fan. An inlet duct fan is made different.


http://www.fantech.net/fkd2.jpg



Here is a transparent view:

http://www.fantech.net/fkd5.jpg

[duce]

Depending on the "type" of fan..... blowing does make little compression but it can "push" the amount of air required by the TB. It probably will not even make boost (maybe a very little at low end??), but it should at least increase the negative pressure in the intake manifold across the rpm range.
Our engines are "air pumps" so the more air we supply the more it can pump.

I am not taking about a muffin style fan. An inlet duct fan is made different.


http://www.fantech.net/fkd2.jpg



Here is a transparent view:

http://www.fantech.net/fkd5.jpg

im all for someone trying it. I just dont see how it would do anything. if it compressed the air then id say yes. Maybe if the engine is starved for air it may help through negative pressure. But remember just because its easier for it to breath it can still only take in as much as the cam and heads will allow. now compressing the air is a whole differnt story

[done]

A supercharger is just a fancy air compressor. It does not care what powers it. You could drive a standard centrifugal, roots, whipple etc with an electric motor and they would still work as long as you can run them at the right RPM. It would take about a 2 HP 48 VDC electric motor and a bank of batteries. Clearly, the issue is why? Would the extra power be more than the losses due to weight? Don't know.

[MattRobertson]

Clearly, the issue is why? Would the extra power be more than the losses due to weight? Don't know.
Many years ago, the arguments drew on for so long the subject was banned at Porschephiles. Engineers say one thing, fans of the technology say another. Dyno challenges were issued with inconclusive results.

That was the state of the argument with the grandaddy of them all: the electricsupercharger.com product on its original platform: Porsches, about 10 years ago. Things may have changed but the core of the argument was power loss to run the fan versus power gain from it, and whether it was physically possible to get more energy than what you are spending. FYI there are no batteries in that product. It runs off of a WOT switch on your existing electrical system.

[done]

Many years ago, the arguments drew on for so long the subject was banned at Porschephiles. Engineers say one thing, fans of the technology say another. Dyno challenges were issued with inconclusive results.

That was the state of the argument with the grandaddy of them all: the electricsupercharger.com product on its original platform: Porsches, about 10 years ago. Things may have changed but the core of the argument was power loss to run the fan versus power gain from it, and whether it was physically possible to get more energy than what you are spending. FYI there are no batteries in that product. It runs off of a WOT switch on your existing electrical system.

Yes, that would be certainly arguable if you run off the current electrical system. My reaction is won't work very well as you need more than 12 VDC motors to get enough "oomph". However, there is nothing in the "rules" that say you cannot run two or more "engines" in the same vehicle.

Does anyone recall the car that Hap Sharp ran in the 60"s that had fans driven by separate engines to create a vacuum under the car?

[concussion]

I got tubed today.

:mrgreen:

[05nvrL8]

I got tubed today.

:mrgreen:


so whats it like?? sound/performance wise?

[concussion]

I'm waiting on the other parts to arrive. I'll start another thread once I start to fab it up.

[05nvrL8]

yay!!! parts are finally coming in! :)

picked up a dreaded K&N filter today... and a crankcase breather. the guy at napa looked at me like i was from outerspace... lol went to O'Reilly's to get the stuff.

[street hooligan]

cant seem to find a 4 inch velocity stack anywhere. only 3 and 3.5. summit racing, bpi, specture, you name it i looked, noone makes a 4 inch that will allow a filter to be camped on.

[MattRobertson]

I assume a 6" pipe would not fit, even if you twsited the 90 slightly down? Then you could move the Velocity stack down to the 90.

I never thought to try it, actually. kind of a zany idea you have there...

It would be real nice if there was enough clearance to run 6" all the way ot the TB then use the Velocity Stack there. "Monster CAI"

hmmm.

Well, what I see as possible is sticking the 4" --> 6" velocity stack onto the end of the 3.5" --> 4" elbow. Then run straight pipe out to the filter. Bend the elbow down, as you say, to angle the thing for space. You'd lose some benefit of moving the filter down out of the hot zone.

It would set a new standard in stupid-looking.... and sure would be cheap to try with the parts I have on hand. I haven't got the slightest idea whether it will do any good.


cant seem to find a 4 inch velocity stack anywhere. only 3 and 3.5. summit racing, bpi, specture, you name it i looked, noone makes a 4 inch that will allow a filter to be camped on. Check your PM box :-) Also, for everybody else, I edited my post to add the part number. Summit works real hard to hide the part on their site. Search for 'Spectre 9604" and you'll get it. Also Google Shopping will bring up different vendors selling the same part with the same search terms.

[Becker]

cant seem to find a 4 inch velocity stack anywhere. only 3 and 3.5. summit racing, bpi, specture, you name it i looked, noone makes a 4 inch that will allow a filter to be camped on.

Summit works real hard to hide the part on their site. Search for 'Spectre 9604" and you'll get it. Also Google Shopping will bring up different vendors selling the same part with the same search terms.You might also check here: http://www.sfxperformance.com/parts/SPT9604.htm

[netnathan]

Has anybody had their car on the dyno with an open throttle body? Or even better.... how about a comparo with only a velocity stack added?

Ths would be some nice baseline numbers.....

..

[netnathan]

cant seem to find a 4 inch velocity stack anywhere. only 3 and 3.5. summit racing, bpi, specture, you name it i looked, noone makes a 4 inch that will allow a filter to be camped on.

SFX Performance...they actually have apretty good selection of Spectre components.
Scroll down about 1/3 the way and you wil see the index.
http://www.sfxperformance.com/parts/Spectre.asp

Here is a 4" to 6" velocity stack.....$10.22
http://www.sfxperformance.com/parts/SPT9604.htm

[MattRobertson]

Has anybody had their car on the dyno with an open throttle body?
We did it on the dyno and at the track at one of the GIFO's. Results were underwhelming to say the least. I don't think you can close the hood if you link a velocity stack to the TB.

I bought my stack from Summit rather than SFX or one of the others out there cuz I knew Summit was for sure going to be reputable. It was an extra $3 so I wasn't concerned about cost.

[Becker]

I bought my stack from Summit rather than SFX or one of the others out there cuz I knew Summit was for sure going to be reputable. It was an extra $3 so I wasn't concerned about cost.I usually buy from Summit also, but when buying one item their $9.95-$11.95 handling really adds up. Plus their prices at one time were unbeatable, but that's definately not true anymore.

[netnathan]

We did it on the dyno and at the track at one of the GIFO's. Results were underwhelming to say the least. I don't think you can close the hood if you link a velocity stack to the TB.


I seem to remmebr, that but I thought it was done without the filter and some tubing was still connected.

You are probably right about the stupid hood clearance being in the way of the Velocity Stack. Our cars really have a compressed clearance areas to work for CAI design options. Next to nothing in hood clearance and barely 6" from the TB to the radiator.

Hmmmmm....I have another weird idea...but....I think I am going to visit Spectre next week.
Luckily I live only about 15 miles from them and they are great people to work with, very friendly. They gave me a full tour last time and let me take test components out to my car to see how they might fit and look.

"Super Smooth Cool Flow CAI VI" (or something like that) coming soon.

Anybody want to buy a G&L?

..

[street hooligan]

specture was looking for a charger too. i found it n their site.

[street hooligan]

also just to note, there no difference in performance with a stack, i just think they look cool. they only really do a difference on turbo cars as it helps with spool and lag believe it or not. not so much on a NA car. i dont wanna get people thinking it will be a noticable diff.

on a side not mat must have gotten the last one, summit and jegs both wont have any instock for a few weeks.

[netnathan]

also just to note, there no difference in performance with a stack, i just think they look cool. they only really do a difference on turbo cars as it helps with spool and lag believe it or not. not so much on a NA car. i dont wanna get people thinking it will be a noticable diff.

on a side not mat must have gotten the last one, summit and jegs both wont have any instock for a few weeks.

IMO...I think that a velocity stack shape to a TB inlet will help smooth the air going into the TB.
When the TB is full open due to the amount of air entering it, there will be "vortices" (think flow that looks like a whirlpool that is formed when a river makes a sharp turn) formed at the sharp edges of the inlet o the TB as the air whips around that corner. This causes turbulation in the total flow and speed of air entering the intake.

..

[MattRobertson]

mat must have gotten the last one, summit and jegs both wont have any instock for a few weeks.
No I had to wait a couple weeks for mine. They seem to be special-order everywhere. Not a surprise given the tubing diameter.
I seem to remmebr, that but I thought it was done without the filter and some tubing was still connected.

No there was no tubing... and no filter either. It was a test of the open throttle body with absolutely no restriction whatsoever. My admittedly hazy memory tells me that it did *nothing*, which could be construed as telling us the restriction point is the TB diameter. It could also be construed as telling us that airflow characteristics matter. Thats why an AirHammer makes power over an open TB, as does, by implication, an F-IV since it outperformed an old gen2 stainless AirHammer of the type now sold by someone else.

[65standard]

I like this intake design the best. I am guessing that it makes the most power because of the filter placement. It has the least amount of shrouding around. Superb design Matt.

[street hooligan]

these deabtes have been fought on other forums. velocity stacks will help flow, not really straighten the air coming in. that why the tube really helps. the old mofo's showed this when no piping was used. the stack will create more of a turbulance when placed on the TB. but remember you can straighten all the air you want, once it gets past the TB into the intake manifold, it gets bounced all around regaurdless.

[netnathan]

these deabtes have been fought on other forums. velocity stacks will help flow, not really straighten the air coming in. that why the tube really helps. the old mofo's showed this when no piping was used. the stack will create more of a turbulance when placed on the TB. but remember you can straighten all the air you want, once it gets past the TB into the intake manifold, it gets bounced all around regaurdless.

I don't expect a huge increaes with a Velocity Stack at the TB only better than just an open inlet. I'll buy you a steak dinner if there is no HP gain with a velocity stack only on the TB than just a wide open throat.
Yes....the air may bonce around on its way to the intake port once it is in the intake. But if this is fully true then why port and smooth intake manifold? Because they are trying to smooth out the air flow. We are only thrying to maximize how much air is getting into the intake is which is important.

Somehwere I have data on cooling nozzles my company designed on the heat treat furnaces my company builds. We gain 30% in cfm between having a cooling nozzle that has a "shaped" inlet to the nozzle as oppossed to just a straight inlet.
I have pics somewhere.....


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[Mymopar]

After having made my FIV and driving with it for a week or so, I can say that it really has made a difference over the AFE that I ran. It coul dbe the cooler temps right now but I have a feeling the gradual bend in the tube and the size, the WAY larger filter area and the placement has a lot to do with it.

[05nvrL8]

my frankentake sounds like sex... my car was relatively quiet... put this on tonight and OMG... it opened up my exhaust, it sounds sooo much better at WOT, but still quiet cruising. BUTT dyno is stupid haha cant wait to get the predator hooked up to this.

[street hooligan]

i can garuntee you will noticce no gain in performance from a stack. i plan on ordering the 4 inch specture stack, but after seeing pics, the BPi stack is much better as its a true donut shape where as the specture stops where the filter clamps on.

if you wanna try the hole stack on the tb thing, make sure you order the bpi 3.5 inch stack. the OD on the tb is a little under 3.5 inchs so it would work and flow nice. some guy on here did this already on his srt8, he commented right away he noticed the low end grunt was gone completely almost. he installed the stock air box and commented all was well again. it sucks cause he notched out his core support to fit the filter too, hes got pics also on here maybe i can find them.

if you look for my post on the kool vue intake youll see i tried the v stack on the rt as well. i had them on many high HP cars also and i gotta admit, no difference in power was felt at all! just sound. i just like the way they look, lol!

[netnathan]

Just some food for thought.
Notice the co-efficent of discharge (Cd) and also the co-efficent of velocity (Cv) on these designs and compare to the last one (4) which is similar to a velocity stack in design.
Compare this to the second one (2) which is how a lot of our systems are set up.
This is probably important to TB porting also.

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa130/netnathan/NozzleDesign.jpg

[MattRobertson]

#5 looks an awful lot like the inside of the S&B filter collar. Interesting.

[concussion]

totally off the stack line of thought...

My parts have started to come in.

Here's my build thread.

http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=155211

totally stoked.

cheers,
Burelson

[netnathan]

#5 looks an awful lot like the inside of the S&B filter collar. Interesting.

I thought you might like this sheet.
At my company we did a lot of testing on this nozzle design to get the best flow and velocity compared to the competition. It really is sort of a typical funnel design. (Because of my position as Director of Technology I was part of the testing group)

[street hooligan]

just orderd a 4 inch true donut style velocity stack from horsepowerfreaks.com

i did this over the spectre unit as it wasnt a true donut shape, and the true donut shape is were a real velocity stack works best. just like what was pictured above in the sketches it rounds itself over.

it was 40 bux much more than the spectre but i dont mind.

[nclimey]

I've searched this and other threads pretty thoroughly but haven't found any advice on how to remove the IAT sensor from the stock intake elbow without risking damaging it. Does anyone have a good recipe?

Also, with apologies for nitpicking, some confusion in these threads might be avoided by distinguishing between the exhaust gas recirculation system (which has no connection to the intake system) and the crankcase ventilation system (which does)!

[05nvrL8]

on the iat very carefully kind of twist and pull on it, it took a couple minutes to get it out. popped out intact. then we drilled that rubber elbow with a smaller bit and used a dremel to hollow it out just enough get it to fit. the iat comes off in 2 pieces btw. but after i was installing it on the car i broke the clip... nothing a little tape couldnt fix. dont touch the egr... the crankcase breather, i bought a spectre filter for $10 at oriellys and we hollowed it out a little bit to get it to fit, then used a little clamp to screw it in place. i ziptied it to the a/c lines or whatever those metal lines are down there. ill post my pics soon...I've searched this and other threads pretty thoroughly but haven't found any advice on how to remove the IAT sensor from the stock intake elbow without risking damaging it. Does anyone have a good recipe?

Also, with apologies for nitpicking, some confusion in these threads might be avoided by distinguishing between the exhaust gas recirculation system (which has no connection to the intake system) and the crankcase ventilation system (which does)!

[MattRobertson]

OK...don't touch the EGR. Its on the other side of the motor and uses a different size hose, too :D

As for the IAT, bend it around a little in its original installation location, and apply a few drops of oil to where it mates to the tube. The oil will soak in and it'll come out more easily.

When inserting it, use the heel of your leather clad hand (i.e. wear gloves) to push it into the - also slightly-lubed - hole, with your other hand inside the elbow supporting the elbow so the push of the sensor doesn't smoosh it into the other side of the elbow -- or push it clean thru... which I have come close to doing. If you do not wear gloves you will realize real quick why I say to put them on as the edges of the sensor are going to leave a nice mark.

Or take a pair of scissors and make an incision from the lip of the stock elbow to the sensor hole and it'll fall right out. Thats how I did my first one.

TWO pieces on the IAT? Dodge must have changed the part. I have seen dozens and its a 1-piece unit.

[nclimey]

Many thanks, 05; I guess I've got to twist and pull a little harder! Last night, with the elbow good and warm (just taken off a hot engine) and even a little lube, I could easily turn the sensor, but not twist it out.

Puzzled by your comment that the sensor "comes off in two pieces" unless you mean first the electrical connector and then the sensor itself. Was the clip you broke part of the connector or the sensor?

[nclimey]

Thanks, too, Matt. I think I've tried everything you suggest, including the glove! I'll just have to pull harder!

BTW, I wasn't confused by the mixtures of EGR/PCV terminology. I was trying to help out!

[05nvrL8]

well there is a part to the car which is held on by the clip and that goes onto the sensor... so its basically two parts, so i am going to assume you already found that out and i just made you more confused :-) it will be well worth it once its on the car, o and be foreworned that if you start it without the iat connected to something you will prob have a cel. i did because i cleaned my throttle body just before installing the intake.Many thanks, 05; I guess I've got to twist and pull a little harder! Last night, with the elbow good and warm (just taken off a hot engine) and even a little lube, I could easily turn the sensor, but not twist it out.

Puzzled by your comment that the sensor "comes off in two pieces" unless you mean first the electrical connector and then the sensor itself. Was the clip you broke part of the connector or the sensor?

[MattRobertson]

No sweat. If you see any place where I did that let me know and I'll alter my post.

Just twist and pull with gentle, constant force and you'll get the sensor. It *is* scary when you're doing it the first time. Also check the original F-III thread. I went into much more install detail there. And there is a separate F-III install tips thread somewhere. I don't think I have that linked.

[Leadfootluke]

No sweat. If you see any place where I did that let me know and I'll alter my post.

Just twist and pull with gentle, constant force and you'll get the sensor. It *is* scary when you're doing it the first time. Also check the original F-III thread. I went into much more install detail there. And there is a separate F-III install tips thread somewhere. I don't think I have that linked.

Ours took a LOT of force, but if you keep it straight so it doesn't catch on the way out you will be good. It was pretty scary at the moment when it doesn't budge.