inner tierods

[OLJustice]

Just curious if someone can hep me out by describing the symptoms and diagnoses procedure of bad INNER tie rods. The symptoms of worn outers are documented well on the forums (clunking & the 9-3oclock wheel shake to test), but I haven't really read anything about the inners.

From what I've gathered from various youtube videos (of non LXs), a good inner tie rod will rotate smoothly (when disconnected from the knuckle of course) and freely but NOT loosely at the sleeve/joint. In other words it will move in all directions but not be all loosey goosey and will hold the position you leave it in. The last time I had a chance to check this out when I was upgrading my Brembos, I noticed that while mine moved freely, they dropped back down when I wasn't holding them. Is this good or bad?

The reason I ask is this: I have been having road wander (even when holding wheel dead still)/extreme crown sensitivity/horrible bump steer (now even when going straight!)/general loose/disconnected steering feel issues for almost a year now. I am running full SRT suspension w/a front Brembo setup. I recently had a 28pt Pedders inspection. The guys at the shop were EXTREMELY knowledgeable and let me get underneath the car; carefully explaining weakpoints of the LX suspension and showing me first-hand the parts that would be replaced and how it would help mitigate/alleviate each issue I was having. They showed me the new Pedders bits that would go in and demonstrated how soft stock bushings really were and how they compared to their urethane bushings. All-in-all, it was a great experience and quite a relief to finally have my suspension inspected by someone who knows to look for more than just a leaky strut and do the ol' tie-rod end wiggle test.

They recommended:
Radius Rod (aka tension strut) bushings
Lower control arm bushings
Upper control arm bushings
Bumpsteer kit
Their GSR struts/springs (front only) and lower strut mount bushingsWhile I have no doubt that the above upgrades would dramatically improve the ride and handling of my Charger, I have one issue that just keeps nagging me - While they were very helpful in pointing out potential weak points in the suspension & teaching me what could be causing my symptoms... they never actually found anything wrong underneath my car! Now let me say first hand that this is in no way meant to knock Pedders or their shops. The inspection was top notch and very informative and the guys there were great. It just bothers the hell out of me that they found NOTHING wrong. I'm just finding it hard to part with $1500+ bucks to replace a whole bunch of stuff when the actual problem hasn't been located. If they told me "hey, look at this here, this is torn/worn... this is leaking", then I'd feel better. But no torn/visible worn bushings found, nothing leaking, nothing wiggling or loose. Not a damn thing. I would really like to locate some kind of problem before spending so much money. If it was just small/cheap things then I'd have no problem going the trial & error route. But stuff ain't cheap (and deservedly so) and I want to pinpoint something before moving forward.

So... now that you have the background - Back to the original question: Inner tie rods: symptoms & how to diagnose? Please... no outer tie-rod symptoms and diagnoses; Again this has been discussed ad-nausem. Just to reiterate - my symptoms are "road wander/extreme crown sensitivity/bump steer (now even when going straight!)/general loose/disconnected steering feel". Also, I notice that from dead center, a quick 90* turn to the left yields more of a turn than a quick 90* turn to right. Oh, and I have the clunking too. Keep in mind that my 2 front wheels pass the 3-9 oclock wiggle test with flying colors - stiff as a rock. I am aware that SRT shocks do have a bit of clunk but mine sounds more like engine is about to drop on the highway and the front end is going to disintegrate.


Inner tie rod video I reference (off a non-LX car)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQt-u-frkJs



EDIT: Oh, and they found the 2 front tires to be wearing on the inside so bad that steel belt was coming out of one of them on the inside. The rears were at about 50% but even. The fronts have been replaced since by Hankook Ventus ST 275/40/20s and an alignment was done yesterday. Everything is within spec. Still experiencing these issues.

[DA H.N.I.C.]

Only way I knew that ONE of my inner tie-rods needed replacement was because both outters were getting replaced.
Figured we might as well check it out since it was already disassembled and 'lo and behold, I had a bad inner.
Not sure if there is a true tell-tale sign either. I DO know that they last longer than the outters because it's a more of an elbow joint whereas the outters are a "floating" pivot point making it more succeptable to problems.

[OLJustice]

Only way I knew that ONE of my inner tie-rods needed replacement was because both outters were getting replaced.
Figured we might as well check it out since it was already disassembled and 'lo and behold, I had a bad inner.
Not sure if there is a true tell-tale sign either. I DO know that they last longer than the outters because it's a more of an elbow joint whereas the outters are a "floating" pivot point making it more succeptable to problems.

What were your symptoms?

[formerice]

Worn inners will cause a slight shimmy when you apply the brakes . It will get worse over time. #1 for you, would be take it in to a good 4 wheel alignment shop. A good 4 wheel alignment shop will also find any worn components, they can't do a proper alignment if any parts are worn. Unless your dealer is going to warrantee, take a look at NAPA parts , they seem to be much better. You might just get the Pedders bumpsteer bushings for now, btw. If alignment shops find worn bushings, replace with Pedders.

[DA H.N.I.C.]

What were your symptoms?


Only symptons I saw with the inners was the ability to put my hand on one and move it...........in ANY direction.
Now, that was when the car was up on the hoist and the wheels were removed.
The other inner had NO movement at all.

[OLJustice]

Only symptons I saw with the inners was the ability to put my hand on one and move it...........in ANY direction.
Now, that was when the car was up on the hoist and the wheels were removed.
The other inner had NO movement at all.

That was the way they diagnosed it. But I mean driveability-wise, did you notice anything as far as steering/handling/bumps go?

[DA H.N.I.C.]

There were bumps, knocks, there was floating steering, floating braking, a little of everything.
But I'm not sure if that was due to the one inner tie rod at all, especially considering both outter tie rods were BADLY worn.
What I was told was that the hints for worn inner tie rods are nil, and that the inners last WAY longer than the outters mainly because of their limited movement abilities. So when they go bad usually your outters have been bad already for some time.

[manny72]

I have the same symptoms that you're experiencing, I've already had the Outer Rods replaced. A friend who's a mechanic at thge Dealer told me that my inners are bad as well. I'm just having a hard time finding them at a local parts store. But I will say that the bad bump steer and the feeling of the Engine falling out underneath is from the Inners going bad.

[OLJustice]

I have the same symptoms that you're experiencing, I've already had the Outer Rods replaced. A friend who's a mechanic at thge Dealer told me that my inners are bad as well. I'm just having a hard time finding them at a local parts store. But I will say that the bad bump steer and the feeling of the Engine falling out underneath is from the Inners going bad.

Thank you! This is the type of input I was looking for. Can you describe your symptoms in a bit more detail? Did the dealer tell you how he knew your inners were going bad? Any more information you can input would be extremely helpful.

[momad]

I think the reason you're having problems finding them at a part store is because there aren't inner tie rod ends on a rack steering system. If you've got sloppy steering after changing your tie rods, I would start looking at your ball joints, the rack itself, bushings etc.
http://i488.photobucket.com/albums/rr242/hail-wagon/untitled.jpg

[Carfinish]

^^^ there are inners available at Carquest see this http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=114412

OL....I had same symptoms exactly as you described.... it is strange but when the car is driving and all pressures are on these joints you will get those symptoms...bear in mind when the tie-rod ends are in your hands, you can not apply that amount of pressure to determine that they do have a problem. OL you should be able to find a CQ near you to get these.

also, if you are replacing outers and you have a good amount of miles on car, you may as well do the inners because you have to get the car aligned anyway.

[DA H.N.I.C.]

Actually you DO have inner tie rods but it used to be listed as a "non-serviceable item" that's INSIDE that boot in the above picture and you would have to spend upwards of $800 for the complete rack. Only within the last 2 months has it now been a serviceable piece that can be bought at the dealership. I paid somewhere around $70 or $80 for ONE.

[OLJustice]

I think the reason you're having problems finding them at a part store is because there aren't inner tie rod ends on a rack steering system. If you've got sloppy steering after changing your tie rods, I would start looking at your ball joints, the rack itself, bushings etc.

A bit off topic there :). Actually there are no such thing as "inner tie rod ends" I was referring to the inner tie rod itself. If you pull the bellows back you'll notice a ball-in-socket joint. Thats the inner tie rod. I'm just trying to pinpoint the cause of all my symptoms before deciding on putting down so much money on a hit-or-miss fix.

[Meathammer]

^^^ there are inners available at Carquest see this http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=114412

OL....I had same symptoms exactly as you described.... it is strange but when the car is driving and all pressures are on these joints you will get those symptoms...bear in mind when the tie-rod ends are in your hands, you can not apply that amount of pressure to determine that they do have a problem. OL you should be able to find a CQ near you to get these.

also, if you are replacing outers and you have a good amount of miles on car, you may as well do the inners because you have to get the car aligned anyway.

Yup, I've already replaced my outers with the Moog parts from Carquest and after my last service, they brought it to my attention that my inner tie rod ends are also worn out. The car does wander a bit, but I thought that was just due to the winter tires I'm currently running. Otherwise I too run the Hankook Ventus II tires that are the 275/40/20 size mounted on 9.5" x 20" aluminum wheels. I've gone through two sets of OEM outer tie rods and when I was going to have my Pedders bump steer kit installed, they found the outers were bad again as well as my upper radius rod end busings were torn. So I had them replace those bushings and the tie rod ends with the Moog parts. I'm going to have the inners also replaced with the Moogs. Hopefully this will be the end of replacing my tie rod ends once a year.

[Carfinish]

A bit off topic there :). Actually there are no such thing as "inner tie rod ends" I was referring to the inner tie rod itself. If you pull the bellows back you'll notice a ball-in-socket joint. Thats the inner tie rod. I'm just trying to pinpoint the cause of all my symptoms before deciding on putting down so much money on a hit-or-miss fix.


Ok what ever anyone wants to call it.... everyone should under stand there is an inner and outer that connects the rack to the wheel....and this is from Moog's catalog..... guess it is an end ....lol ;).... Actually the tie rod has and end that is built into it....ball and socket as mentioned above.

FOR THE MAGNUM (RWD - SE, SXT, RT, SRT)

Part Number Part Description Qty Per Vehicle
EV80702 Inner Tie Rod End 2
ES3571 Outer Tie Rod End 2

[OLJustice]

Excellent info guys. Anymore testimonies of symptoms similar to what I described in my OP? Anyone actually fix their problem? The constant road wonder even when holding the wheel dead center, alignments not lasting long, bumpsteer when going straight, road unevenness causing VERY noticeable changes in the car's direction.

Its like the steering has no 'solidness' to it. I understand that a car tends to follow imperfections in the road but I can take my hands off of my wheel, go down a moderately bumpy/cracked road and literally watch the wheel dance around. It has no feeling of tightness/control at all.

[formerice]

Excellent info guys. Anymore testimonies of symptoms similar to what I described in my OP? Anyone actually fix their problem? The constant road wonder even when holding the wheel dead center, alignments not lasting long, bumpsteer when going straight, road unevenness causing VERY noticeable changes in the car's direction.

Its like the steering has no 'solidness' to it. I understand that a car tends to follow imperfections in the road but I can take my hands off of my wheel, go down a moderately bumpy/cracked road and literally watch the wheel dance around. It has no feeling of tightness/control at all.Yes, the NAPA or Carquest parts seem to be a permanent fix, as are Pedders bushings. My car handles like its on rails now, also NAPA tie rod ends have grease fittings.:thumbs_u:

[bookeem]

how hard is it to change the inner and outter tie rod ends, and is there any special tools needed, or will i simply be able to jack up the car, remove the nut on the outter tie rod, unscrew the tie rod of, marking where it was at when on..then do the opposite for installing the new tie rod end..

i been thinking of changing mines, again, but myself, come spring while putting on new rotors and pads..

thanks.

[DA H.N.I.C.]

What's up Bookeem. Here's a write up from CustomMagnums.com

http://www.custommagnums.com/forums/misc-mods/8710-outer-tie-rods-swap-out.html

Hope it helps!

[bookeem]

they dont call u the hnic for nothing, lol

good looking out man..

ok just checked the link and its as easy as i thought it was..now all we need is a inner tie rod write up...

thanks again hnic..

[DA H.N.I.C.]

^^^^^^No problemo!!

[momad]

Actually you DO have inner tie rods but it used to be listed as a "non-serviceable item" that's INSIDE that boot in the above picture and you would have to spend upwards of $800 for the complete rack. Only within the last 2 months has it now been a serviceable piece that can be bought at the dealership. I paid somewhere around $70 or $80 for ONE.


Well, that was awfully nice of them to offer that. I had never know of any of the input shafts to have replacement parts available. :thumbs_u: So they sell the replacement input shaft with the b/s joint and seal kit?
You should post pics of your change out if you took any.

Thanks for the info.

[DA H.N.I.C.]

Yeah, I'm kind of kicking myself for not taking pics while it was getting done. I think that it may have helped a lot of people out. :(
Jeff Hume at CMJ Performance (now defunct) did the work for me and I was talking to him the whole time and didn't realize it would've made for a good add-on "how to" thread

[momad]

I just ordered the RE bump steer ends and will be ordering the replacement steer shafts tomorrow. Really appreciate the info. I'll post some pics when done.

[OLJustice]

I think I'll replace my inners and outers with Moog parts before getting the Pedders suggested setup. Just to see if that fixes my issues.

[DA H.N.I.C.]

I heard MOOG was the way to go with their greased fittings. I didn't have the extra couple of bucks at the time so I got what I got.