MotherMopar
07-20-2008, 03:06 AM
I posted this on the SRT/C, and there have been responses which I will add at the bottom (factual ones only), and those will be numbered so that someone from SRT/C doesn't have to come back here to LXF and rewrite the same thing.
ORIGINAL POST by Momo (me):
If there's one thing you all can rely upon me for is honesty and integrity when it comes to me telling you all what I think. I don't know a heck of alot about the mechanics of our vehicles, but I can and do analyze performance fairly well from a layman's standpoint.
Rick and I met up at a local construction road that's about 3/4 of a mile long. There is nearly zero traffic on this road and both sides are bordered by a 30-50 foot berm of dirt... aka: its like a road bunker with no pedestrians and no driveways and/or connecting streets what-so-ever.
In order to gain an honest and true assessment of the Vortech blower, we took driver's skill at launching out of the equation and went from a SLOW roll and 1500 rpms in 1st gear. The weather was about 74 degrees, sunny, low humidity.
Rick calculated the distance to be nearly a 1/3 of a mile down this one stretch, but when he's reached 110 mph, the distance covered equates to 1/4 mile.
Rick's power mods: CAI, Zoomers, Magnaflow hiflow cats, Predator and B&G tune.
My power mods: Zoomers, Magnaflow hiflow cats and Vortech blower.
*Prior to my blower install, Rick's car was a little bit faster than mine.
So, we took two runs using the above formula. On both runs, I pulled ONE car length on Rick.
We took an additional run from about 30 mph, dumped down into gear and nailed it. Rick got the jump on me this time, and I did NOT re-gain ANY ground on Rick. We finished with him ahead by about 3/4 of a car.
So...
My car dynoed at 435 rwhp on a mustang dyno @ Vortech. Which roughly equates to the advertised 540 hp given a dynojet and negation of drivetrain loss. Ryan and Drew dynoed at 400 rwhp at Vortech...
Ryan beat Rick by the same distance on the same road (1 car length).
Of note: Once I got my car length on Rick, that position held and neither of us gained.
My honest assessment is that I gained 115 rwhp from the blower install, over stock (went from 323 to 437 on a mustang dyno)... but in real world testing, that 115 rwhp accounted for only 1 car length in an approximate 1/4 mile race.
Whether this is or is not an expected outcome, I have no idea.
I am impressed with my blower, as it did make me faster; but with an additional 35 rwhp (mustang dynoed) over Ryan/Drew, I would have expected slightly better results and not 'just' to equal their performances vs. Rick.
EDIT: Be reminded that I am a research vehicle for Vortech. I was informed that my tune was the tune to be used in the production units. I got a INSANE deal on this blower and install, so I am NOT complaining. This is an FYI for all of you out there so that you know what you're getting... a great product... but don't think you're gonna be BLOWING people's doors off JUST because you have a blower. Mind you, the canned Vortech tune is about as safe as safe gets, and a solid custom tune will really light the fire under this beast.
RESPONSE #1:
Really good writeup Jason. I'll also add as far as mods go Jason and I are both running the same tires and he does has a Vortech tuned Predator. Jason, Ryan, Drew, and John have spoken about the one (1) car length dilemma associated with the "out of the box" Vortech. IMO, for what the R&D crowd paid for the blowers they still got a pretty good deal. If "I" were to pay retail ($6000 + tax, and install), I would be less than happy with the results. As a matter of fact I'd be really pissed.
RESPONSE #2:
On the tune from Vortech, it IS conservative, VERY conservative. I believe someone had mentioned that the A/F was sitting in the upper 10's rather than the lower 11's. With time and KR to match, there is pleanty of power to be had.
RESPONSE #3:
When Ryan and I dyno'd after the Vortech, the AF was WELL below 10. It wouldn't even register on the chart because it started at 10. The guys at the Dyno Shop (actual name of the shop) said there was a LOT to be gained in the tune as everyone has said, but I agree, not very impressed with only being able to pull one to two car lengths. My car with the hi-flow cats, Zoomers and AFE pulled 402 on the dyno that I pulled 450 with after the Vortech. Botom line, 50 hp give or take is very low for a SC, even with the low boost we are running. They did say the SC's were very well designed and could easily push 700 to 800 hp if our engines could handle it with some forged items, especially rods and pistons, easily with pully changes, cams, tunes, etc. I have GOT to get a Friday off so I can get to the track and see exactly what the time and top speed differences will be now.
RESPONSE #4:
I would take it to Vortech and have them look at the tune again. Our pro-charged srt8 charger ran a 12.1@113mph bone stock with not even a catback exhaust. Against a stock charger, that would have been about 4-6 car lengths. We also had a very conservative tune in the car and dynoed 460rwhp/480rwtq. If your lean or have too much timing, you could be detonating and the pcm could be pulling allot of timing back out. You should go back to vortech or install a wideband.
RESPONSE #5:
RE: Rick's car and mine:
Actually, my gas tank was at 1/4 tank... so that's not much weight... plus, Rick weighs about 30 lbs +/- than I. We both drove the same relative distance to the road... BUT... Rick had done a few pulls before I got there. So, technically, my car was lighter and cooler than his.
I'd have expected me to pull anytime I hit above 2800 rpms (when the boost kicks in). But, not really.
RESPONSE #6:
We're R&D vehicles for Vortech, and our tunes are basically set in steel. The tune is as such because they are going for CARB legal (California emissions).
I'm impressed with Vortech overall, the staff especially. They're very helpful, friendly folks. Their product line in general is legendary.
HOWEVER... like a few have said... IF I was to have paid $6000+ for this blower and tune... I'd be a little upset.
RESPONSE #7:
Remember Bud has a predator with a b&g tune, cats, exhaust and an intake. Plus the shifting on the vortech tune isnt very good at all. There is at least 2 tenths in just the shifting to be had I would bet. I can say that my shift second to third is so slow I can count it off...Lance has these tunes so safe because of the fact they have to warranty them. There is at least 30-50 to gain low end alone from a tune. The graphs of these cars with the vortech tune show that ricks car was making more sooner then was passed by the boost.
Please dont judge at this point the numbers from the dynos they are not really representative of what is left in the kits. Sure they make good numbers which in comparison are better numbers then heads/cam cars but due to the fact of how the power is applied they arent responding as well. With some tuning of the cars to adjust the low end and shifting I bet you see more numbers in the 525-550 range on a non mustang dyno and that those graphs look much better. They just arent making the low end that they can due to safety.
SO... Now that you've read all that, your thoughts, opinions, ideas, etc. are welcomed. This is the first (that I know of) head to head comparison of a NA lightly modded SRT8 and a Vortech supercharged SRT8 that has been written (although not technical as in actual ETs, etc.).
ORIGINAL POST by Momo (me):
If there's one thing you all can rely upon me for is honesty and integrity when it comes to me telling you all what I think. I don't know a heck of alot about the mechanics of our vehicles, but I can and do analyze performance fairly well from a layman's standpoint.
Rick and I met up at a local construction road that's about 3/4 of a mile long. There is nearly zero traffic on this road and both sides are bordered by a 30-50 foot berm of dirt... aka: its like a road bunker with no pedestrians and no driveways and/or connecting streets what-so-ever.
In order to gain an honest and true assessment of the Vortech blower, we took driver's skill at launching out of the equation and went from a SLOW roll and 1500 rpms in 1st gear. The weather was about 74 degrees, sunny, low humidity.
Rick calculated the distance to be nearly a 1/3 of a mile down this one stretch, but when he's reached 110 mph, the distance covered equates to 1/4 mile.
Rick's power mods: CAI, Zoomers, Magnaflow hiflow cats, Predator and B&G tune.
My power mods: Zoomers, Magnaflow hiflow cats and Vortech blower.
*Prior to my blower install, Rick's car was a little bit faster than mine.
So, we took two runs using the above formula. On both runs, I pulled ONE car length on Rick.
We took an additional run from about 30 mph, dumped down into gear and nailed it. Rick got the jump on me this time, and I did NOT re-gain ANY ground on Rick. We finished with him ahead by about 3/4 of a car.
So...
My car dynoed at 435 rwhp on a mustang dyno @ Vortech. Which roughly equates to the advertised 540 hp given a dynojet and negation of drivetrain loss. Ryan and Drew dynoed at 400 rwhp at Vortech...
Ryan beat Rick by the same distance on the same road (1 car length).
Of note: Once I got my car length on Rick, that position held and neither of us gained.
My honest assessment is that I gained 115 rwhp from the blower install, over stock (went from 323 to 437 on a mustang dyno)... but in real world testing, that 115 rwhp accounted for only 1 car length in an approximate 1/4 mile race.
Whether this is or is not an expected outcome, I have no idea.
I am impressed with my blower, as it did make me faster; but with an additional 35 rwhp (mustang dynoed) over Ryan/Drew, I would have expected slightly better results and not 'just' to equal their performances vs. Rick.
EDIT: Be reminded that I am a research vehicle for Vortech. I was informed that my tune was the tune to be used in the production units. I got a INSANE deal on this blower and install, so I am NOT complaining. This is an FYI for all of you out there so that you know what you're getting... a great product... but don't think you're gonna be BLOWING people's doors off JUST because you have a blower. Mind you, the canned Vortech tune is about as safe as safe gets, and a solid custom tune will really light the fire under this beast.
RESPONSE #1:
Really good writeup Jason. I'll also add as far as mods go Jason and I are both running the same tires and he does has a Vortech tuned Predator. Jason, Ryan, Drew, and John have spoken about the one (1) car length dilemma associated with the "out of the box" Vortech. IMO, for what the R&D crowd paid for the blowers they still got a pretty good deal. If "I" were to pay retail ($6000 + tax, and install), I would be less than happy with the results. As a matter of fact I'd be really pissed.
RESPONSE #2:
On the tune from Vortech, it IS conservative, VERY conservative. I believe someone had mentioned that the A/F was sitting in the upper 10's rather than the lower 11's. With time and KR to match, there is pleanty of power to be had.
RESPONSE #3:
When Ryan and I dyno'd after the Vortech, the AF was WELL below 10. It wouldn't even register on the chart because it started at 10. The guys at the Dyno Shop (actual name of the shop) said there was a LOT to be gained in the tune as everyone has said, but I agree, not very impressed with only being able to pull one to two car lengths. My car with the hi-flow cats, Zoomers and AFE pulled 402 on the dyno that I pulled 450 with after the Vortech. Botom line, 50 hp give or take is very low for a SC, even with the low boost we are running. They did say the SC's were very well designed and could easily push 700 to 800 hp if our engines could handle it with some forged items, especially rods and pistons, easily with pully changes, cams, tunes, etc. I have GOT to get a Friday off so I can get to the track and see exactly what the time and top speed differences will be now.
RESPONSE #4:
I would take it to Vortech and have them look at the tune again. Our pro-charged srt8 charger ran a 12.1@113mph bone stock with not even a catback exhaust. Against a stock charger, that would have been about 4-6 car lengths. We also had a very conservative tune in the car and dynoed 460rwhp/480rwtq. If your lean or have too much timing, you could be detonating and the pcm could be pulling allot of timing back out. You should go back to vortech or install a wideband.
RESPONSE #5:
RE: Rick's car and mine:
Actually, my gas tank was at 1/4 tank... so that's not much weight... plus, Rick weighs about 30 lbs +/- than I. We both drove the same relative distance to the road... BUT... Rick had done a few pulls before I got there. So, technically, my car was lighter and cooler than his.
I'd have expected me to pull anytime I hit above 2800 rpms (when the boost kicks in). But, not really.
RESPONSE #6:
We're R&D vehicles for Vortech, and our tunes are basically set in steel. The tune is as such because they are going for CARB legal (California emissions).
I'm impressed with Vortech overall, the staff especially. They're very helpful, friendly folks. Their product line in general is legendary.
HOWEVER... like a few have said... IF I was to have paid $6000+ for this blower and tune... I'd be a little upset.
RESPONSE #7:
Remember Bud has a predator with a b&g tune, cats, exhaust and an intake. Plus the shifting on the vortech tune isnt very good at all. There is at least 2 tenths in just the shifting to be had I would bet. I can say that my shift second to third is so slow I can count it off...Lance has these tunes so safe because of the fact they have to warranty them. There is at least 30-50 to gain low end alone from a tune. The graphs of these cars with the vortech tune show that ricks car was making more sooner then was passed by the boost.
Please dont judge at this point the numbers from the dynos they are not really representative of what is left in the kits. Sure they make good numbers which in comparison are better numbers then heads/cam cars but due to the fact of how the power is applied they arent responding as well. With some tuning of the cars to adjust the low end and shifting I bet you see more numbers in the 525-550 range on a non mustang dyno and that those graphs look much better. They just arent making the low end that they can due to safety.
SO... Now that you've read all that, your thoughts, opinions, ideas, etc. are welcomed. This is the first (that I know of) head to head comparison of a NA lightly modded SRT8 and a Vortech supercharged SRT8 that has been written (although not technical as in actual ETs, etc.).