holy cow - 367 RWHP - dyno proven

[midnight_blue_rt]

methinks Daimler is underrating the SRT8 power output to keep their 40K performance sedan from stepping on their 80K halo car's output..

http://www.svtperformance.com./forums/showthread.php?t=177226

[midnight_blue_rt]

There's an avi too - what a sound:
http://kansascityvca.com/srt8/srt8dyno.avi

[Calabahn]

That's cool, good find..

[Inferno Charger]

Oh yeah. That's what I am talking about. Just makes me want the SRT-8 Charger that much more.

Later

[Big Red Ram]

Listen to that thing scream, wow, just another reason for mr to wait and get one, hmmmm, Charger or Magnum.......... My Mom can't stand the Magnum for some reason :shock: :confused: :? , says it's too big. I don't know. I'm trying to work on her, and she knows I like them so that might make her change her mind a bit. She has yet to see the Charger, but my Step Dad has, and likes it. His first car was a '68 Charger 383.

[hemi dawg]

what an f'n beast!

[DMAG]

Gotta hand it to the Ford guys...they give credit where it is due. Not alot of negative remarks.

[BobF's 6POINT1]

Means we only need to add about 50 RWHP after headers and exhaust to be pretty darn close.

[hemi dawg]

chrysler specs 5.7 at 340 hp and 390 torque (at flywheel I guess)
vrs 425/420 for the 6.1
= 25% increase in hp from 5.7 to 6.1 and 7.7% increase in torque from 5.7 to 6.1

now, 6.1 actually measures 357hp/364 at wheels, right?
what is actual 5.7 at wheels?

btw, 6.1 system is already optimized air-flow wise so I think it will be REAL hard and iffy to add more than a couple hp with mods. maybe a chiller or something would be best?

[Rev.Hammer]

Heh.. Power always finds a way!!! I just know some loony gearhead will extract even MORE power from the SRT's!

[Inferno Charger]

chrysler specs 5.7 at 340 hp and 390 torque (at flywheel I guess)
vrs 425/420 for the 6.1
= 25% increase in hp from 5.7 to 6.1 and 7.7% increase in torque from 5.7 to 6.1

now, 6.1 actually measures 357hp/364 at wheels, right?
what is actual 5.7 at wheels?

btw, 6.1 system is already optimized air-flow wise so I think it will be REAL hard and iffy to add more than a couple hp with mods. maybe a chiller or something would be best?

Can you say turbo muffler.............

[markyneutron]

This is pure speculation based on an unconfirmed rumour but a friend told me that they are detuning the 6.1's as they come down the line

[hemi dawg]

This is pure speculation based on an unconfirmed rumour but a friend told me that they are detuning the 6.1's as they come down the line

detuning to make them run less powerfully?

[Rev.Hammer]

Can you find out HOW they are detuning them so this process can be reversed?

[redinorange]

Say it isn't so...

[Inferno Charger]

detuning to make them run less powerfully?

So the 367rwhp was in a detuned 6.1L engine??? Wow I could only imagine it making even more power in it's fully tuned state.

Speculation: I would be betting that they flashed the ECU with a different program. If they did then it would be possible for Mopar to sell different ECU's to unlock the engines true potential for power.

Later

[markyneutron]

Ok dumbed down so the rear ends don't explode.
I can't find anyone else to confirm that it is BS or not though.

[Inferno Charger]

I gotta ask the question.....Why would the rear ends explode? I have only had FWD cars so I don't know anything about RWD cars.

Later

[Diesel]

i'm thinking they may be tuning these back to save the trannys...?

aren't they only good for 425lb/ft...?

[Inferno Charger]

Honestly that kinda sucks in one respect. So the SRT-8 is only limited by its transmission :( I would think that since it is an ATX it would be able to handle more. Guess I can't complain though since it is alot more power then I have right now (over 3 times as much) in my daily driver and if it is anything like the Charger R/T I test drove on Friday that has less power then it will be a blast to drive :)

Later

[hemi dawg]

this mercedes tranny can handle LOTS more--they run it on a BIG $100K SUV--there's a thread on 300C forums about this

[Inferno Charger]

this mercedes tranny can handle LOTS more--they run it on a BIG $100K SUV--there's a thread on 300C forums about this

Alright. No need to panic then. I am sure someone will come up with a solution to the problem at hand on how to get more grunt out of the 6.1L :)

[Diesel]

this mercedes tranny can handle LOTS more--they run it on a BIG $100K SUV--there's a thread on 300C forums about this

does the "big 100K SUV" put out gobs ot tourque...?

what SUV are we talking about...? G Class...?

[hemi dawg]

on 300c forums, Northern Rider (a SOLID contributor), wrote:

There's lots of stuff in the forums about this tranny. It's one of the best in the world. Very smooth, very strong and very smart. Yes, it has a brain.

Built in Kokomo.

As to the rating: Mercedes spec it to 428 ft/lbs. I suspect it is typical German understatement. But I don't want to be the first guy to find out otherwise.

Here's some info from an earlier post:


Quote:





This transmission has been around for a while with Mercedes-Benz and is even installed on the Jaguar XKR. Here is some more info:

W5A580 transmission features(standard on Laredo, N/A on Limited)





The W5A580 debuted in 1995 Mercedes-Benz passenger vehicles and is known to be one of the smoothest, most fuel-efficient and cost-effective transmissions in the industry. Its unique three-channel torque converter helps provide an exceptionally smooth ride and shifting, while reducing fuel consumption. A $455 million upgrade project at the Indiana Transmission Plant was started in 2001 and completed in 2003. The 600,000 SF plant was designed to produce around 400,000 of the W5A580 transmissions per year for the North American market. The transmission project was the first joint effort between the company's American and German wings after the Chrysler Corp. and Daimler-Benz merge in 1998.



A broad ratio spread from First to the Fifth was selected to minimize fuel consumption and reduce powertrain noise during cruising. An aggressive First-gear ratio provides excellent launch performance, and evenly spaced gear ratios provide smooth acceleration through the gears.

World-class efficiency is achieved through physical and electronic means. This transmission uses bearings to reduce friction in many locations where other transmissions may utilize bushings. The transmission also uses a unique scavenging system that removes oil spun off of the rotating parts by centrifugal force through strategically placed slots in the outside of the case. This saves energy that would be consumed by internal parts rotating in oil. Lubricating holes in the clutches are also positioned to promote quick passage of the transmission fluid through the discs, minimizing viscous losses due to trapped oil.

The shift schedule adapts to individual driving style, driving situation and road conditions, altering shift points based on an accelerator pedal usage, brake usage, lateral acceleration, altitude and load on the car as a result of grades. Electronically controlled engine torque management provides quick wide-open-throttle up shifts and quick two-step (4-2 or 3-1) kick-down shifts that are exceptionally smooth.

Transmission ratios:

GearW5A580545RFE1st3.59 3.002nd2.191.67 upshift / 1.50 kickdown3rd1.411.04th1.000.755th0.830.67Reverse3.1 63.0

Fully adaptive electronic control of all shifting makes shifts very smooth. The system monitors the transmission as shifts occur and adjusts hydraulic pressure as needed. In so doing, the controls make the powertrain feel responsive without harshness.

Driver recognition software alters shift points based on accelerator pedal usage, brake usage and lateral acceleration. This does not require a compromise between sporty and economical operation, nor is it a question of choosing one or the other.

A torque management system uses engine torque modeling to facilitate smooth transmission shifting. Because of electronic throttle control, torque management is more sophisticated and covers a broad torque range. Torque converter clutch slippage is electronically modulated and provides for partial engagement in Third, Fourth or Fifth gears. This results in improved shift feel, fuel economy, driveability and cooling. It can be used at lower speeds to provide benefits over a broad speed range. The system disengages as required to provide optimal performance.

[qzking]

You guys are killing me! I've got a black SRT-8 comming and I've only test driven the RT twice, for really short rides last year and I loved the 5.7's performnce. I can't wait to put my foot in my SRT-8!
KK

[Inferno Charger]

The Charger R/T I drove was a really nice ride that had some get'em up and go but the numbers for the SRT-8 are no slouch either and I want one oh so badly too. The durability of the transmission and rear end that will be determined in the not so distant future since I remember reading from a few people that they are purchasing superchagers for their Magnum R/T's that will boost the power levels to near 500whp and I am sure the torque will be well over 420wtrq.

Later

[Brian_R170]

does the "big 100K SUV" put out gobs ot tourque...?

what SUV are we talking about...? G Class...?

The only $100K SUV that Mercedes makes is the G55 AMG, so I would assume that's it. The '05 version puts 469hp and 517ft-lbs.

[Diesel]

well, there you have it... :-)

[dantodd]

there are multiple part numbers for the A580 transmission. The G55 transmission has a different part number than the A580 transmission on the E500.

[MCaesar]

i'm thinking they may be tuning these back to save the trannys...?

aren't they only good for 425lb/ft...?

No, this tranny handles 516lb/ft in the E55

[Inferno Charger]

So the ATX in the LX cars is able to handle atleast 500+ ft/lbs or torque.

Later

[MCaesar]

On another LX website there was a long post from someone who detailed that the tranny put in the SRT8 was rated the same as the E55 trans

If I can find it I will post it. But it included an internal analysis that was deeper than just the trans model

[70gto]

We just built the 722.6 trans, benz part #, same unit in rear drive hemi platforms,magnum,300c,jeep etc. It is a great design, however the planetary train is prone to implode, a bearing fails and that is the end. Not from lack of lube or lack of service it just breaks. Now the bad news, planet train is only available new, no reman gear trains are around because its such a common failed part you end up buying it new. $2000.00 for just the gear train, after adding in labor and overhaul kit , torque converter, $4500.00. better than benz $5300.00. ie buy a extended warranty

[MCaesar]

Thanks for the tip

[Fred]

So what about the A580 in the C65? It's got like 700+ ft/lbs or torque...

[70gto]

if its a benz 6 speed, its the same unit, might have a different stall converter, and maybe 1 or 2 more clutches but its the same inside. The computer controlls the shift points, so that will be different in e series and jeeps and srt 8, 300c, etc. I do not know about how the planets are cut that will create gear whine but help in preventing gear damage, the straighter the cut the stronger the gear but it will be much louder. h

[Brian_R170]

So what about the A580 in the C65? It's got like 700+ ft/lbs or torque...

There's no C65, but there is a CL65, S65, and SL65. All have the same 604hp/738ft-lbs twin-turbo V12 and 5-speed automatic.

[MCaesar]

There's no C65, but there is a CL65, S65, and SL65. All have the same 604hp/738ft-lbs twin-turbo V12 and 5-speed automatic.

I was at a dealership in South Florida last week and they had a few of them there. The problem was they also had a dealer markup of

$75,000!

[Brian_R170]

LOL, yeah, my local dealer had a "used" CL55 with under 100 miles that was marked up to $225K. Sticker price was about $190K.

Mercedes USA frowns on dealers that gouge, so dealers get around it by buying cars from each other, paying for title and registration, and selling them as used cars. Capitalism will find a way.

[obiwan]

The 5.7 is FW rated @ 340, getting around 280 at the wheels, 60 pony loss.

The 6.1 is FW rated @ 425 and getting 357 at the wheels, 68 pony loss.

Figure 25% drive train loss, the SRT has larger wheels which equal more rotational mass which could explain the other 8 ponies lost?

[done]

The 5.7 is FW rated @ 340, getting around 280 at the wheels, 60 pony loss.

The 6.1 is FW rated @ 425 and getting 357 at the wheels, 68 pony loss.

Figure 25% drive train loss, the SRT has larger wheels which equal more rotational mass which could explain the other 8 ponies lost?

RT - 280/340 = 82.35% (17.65% drivetrain loss)

SRT 8 - 357/425 = 84% (16% drivetrain loss)

Simple math, ignore moment of inertia on larger wheel, DC did because the effect is negligible.

[Brian_R170]

That jives with what I've read on Mercedes forums: typically around 18% loss to the drivetrain with the 5-speed automatic.

[MCaesar]

RT - 280/340 = 82.35% (17.65% drivetrain loss)

SRT 8 - 357/425 = 84% (16% drivetrain loss)

Simple math, ignore moment of inertia on larger wheel, DC did because the effect is negligible.

So the GS blower makes about the same power as the SRT8?

[MCaesar]

The August Motor Trend test of the Charger with the Road & Track package has convinced me more than ever that I must not settle for anything less than an SRT8

[Inferno Charger]

So what are the expected production numbers of the SRT-8 Charger? Anyone have the inside information on this?

Thanks

[MCaesar]

So what are the expected production numbers of the SRT-8 Charger? Anyone have the inside information on this?

Thanks

Road test numbers or production numbers?

I would imagine that the road test numbers should be within a tenth of the 300 SRT8

[done]

So the GS blower makes about the same power as the SRT8?

Check with Obiwan or Armadillo, but I think they are expecting about 420 RWHP.

[Inferno Charger]

No I meant actual vehicle production numbers as in how many vehicles are going to be made.

Later

[MCaesar]

No I meant actual vehicle production numbers as in how many vehicles are going to be made.

Later
Good question

I have never seen an answer on that one other than "limited"

This is all that I have found:



200 05'S WERE MADE AND OFFICIAL WORD FROM THREE DIFFERENT CHRYSLER DEALERS HAVE 400 06'S BEING BUILT(I REPEAT ALREADY BUILT). I TRIED TWO DIFFERENT DEALERSHIPS IN ORLANDO AND CAME UP WITH NOTHING. I ENDED UP FINDING MINE IN AUGUSTA GA AND I KNOW THAT 1 DEALERSHIP IN FORT LAUDERDALE RECEIVED 6 ( YES I REPEAT 6) SRT8'S LAST WEEK. AT LEAST 4 HAVE ALREADY BEEN SOLD AND ALL 2006 CARS HAVE REPORTEDLY ALREADY SHIPPED.

The 300C SRT8 will arrive in dealerships next spring, so get your money down on one early. By all indications the powerful new Chrysler will be as wallet-friendly as the 300 series cars, respective of performance, and therefore the first run should sell out quickly.

[MCaesar]

more

He said, the SRT guys strongly suggested the mopar cold air option. They said that the actual HP at crank is closer to 450 + and that the cold air will add another 10-15 HP. These appear to already be on back order as well. The other good news is that they are working on a higher performance throttle body, still in R&D.
Oh ya the bad news, according to this guy, who works at the plant, they are lucky to get 10 cars built per week and are already 8mths behind schedule.

[Inferno Charger]

Well, if all else fails I might be getting an R/T after all. Gonna have to supercharge it then. I would rather have an SRT-8 though. Limited to 400 units? That is extremely limited. I was thinking more along the lines of 3000 units being limited production.

Later

[MCaesar]

Well, if all else fails I might be getting an R/T after all. Gonna have to supercharge it then. I would rather have an SRT-8 though. Limited to 400 units? That is extremely limited. I was thinking more along the lines of 3000 units being limited production.

Later

The biggest thing stopping me from grabbing a black RT right now is the ESP nazi. 0.77 on the skidpad will not cut it for the way that I drive. If someone could re-program the ESP to allow SRT8 levels of slip I would be there.

[DAYTONA_R/T]

The biggest thing stopping me from grabbing a black RT right now is the ESP nazi. 0.77 on the skidpad will not cut it for the way that I drive. If someone could re-program the ESP to allow SRT8 levels of slip I would be there.

is the 0.77 due to ESP or the tires?

Hell a change in tires can give you a difference in skidpad #'s... and the numbers you are refering to are with the all-season tires I am guessing (august motortrend).... what would the numbers be with a performance tire?

edit: the 300C SRT-8 tested by C&D is running
Wheel size/type: 9.0 x 20 in/cast aluminum
Tires: Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar; F: 245/45ZR-20 99Y,
R: 255/45ZR-20 101Y

and posted a 0.89 on the skidpad.... put that rim and tire combo on an R/T... granted with a tad softer suspension you will not see the same numbers... but you would think it will get you easily above 0.80

[MCaesar]

is the 0.77 due to ESP or the tires?

Hell a change in tires can give you a difference in skidpad #'s... and the numbers you are refering to are with the all-season tires I am guessing (august motortrend).... what would the numbers be with a performance tire?

edit: the 300C SRT-8 tested by C&D is running
Wheel size/type: 9.0 x 20 in/cast aluminum
Tires: Goodyear Eagle F1 Supercar; F: 245/45ZR-20 99Y,
R: 255/45ZR-20 101Y

and posted a 0.89 on the skidpad.... put that rim and tire combo on an R/T... granted with a tad softer suspension you will not see the same numbers... but you would think it will get you easily above 0.80

The 300C tested without the all season tires hit 0.79. The problem is the ESP, not just the tires. Chrysler was so concerned about the switch from FWD to RWD that they wayyyy over did it on the traction control intevention. If you read all the road tests the problem is the ESP cuts off the power so soon that the cars can't generate any lateral forces.

Unless it is an SRT8, you just can not do balls-out cornering in these cars. The shame of it all is that all the testers say the suspension clearly is ready to do more. If it let pull at least a 0.84 that would be decent enough without challenging the big dog.

Also, the SRT8 has so many durability upgrades that is, to me, worth the price of admission. Of course if you are a milder mannered driver it probably is not worth it.

[Inferno Charger]

I am still wondering what the overall production of these vehicles is going to be in MY2007. Perhaps the numbers are just lower in the introduction of the vehicles and things will pickup next year.

Later

[MCaesar]

I am still wondering what the overall production of these vehicles is going to be in MY2007. Perhaps the numbers are just lower in the introduction of the vehicles and things will pickup next year.

Later

I can't imagine Chrysler turning down business when they have a chance to really muscle in on the market. The only way I think they would do that is if they are just in too much trouble with CAFE standards.

At least they could build a ton of Magnum SRT8s since they don't qualify for CAFE.

[v8440]

Unless it is an SRT8, you just can not do balls-out cornering in these cars.


Sure you can. Just pull fuse #17, and you be 'ridin! It also disables the abs, but to me that's not that big a deal. I've been driving cars not equipped with abs for years, so one more isn't an issue. Tire flaming doughnuts are no problem with the fuse rattling around in the glovebox.

[MCaesar]

Sure you can. Just pull fuse #17, and you be 'ridin! It also disables the abs, but to me that's not that big a deal. I've been driving cars not equipped with abs for years, so one more isn't an issue. Tire flaming doughnuts are no problem with the fuse rattling around in the glovebox.

It is not really the donuts but the ability to put the rear out in a turn if I like. Now we know that isn't always the fastest way around a curve but it is the most fun.

Thanks for the tip

[v8440]

Yeah, the electronics are kind of a drag on these cars. I don't actually go around doing donuts all the time, but I like not having to wonder if the computer is pulling power out of the motor when I step on it.

[done]

Yeah, the electronics are kind of a drag on these cars. I don't actually go around doing donuts all the time, but I like not having to wonder if the computer is pulling power out of the motor when I step on it.

The TSC is not doing anything unless your wheels are spinning or you are moving sideways. What makes you believe otherwise?

[v8440]

Because sometimes the wheels spin a little when you step on it.

[MCaesar]

The TSC is not doing anything unless your wheels are spinning or you are moving sideways. What makes you believe otherwise?

That is the whole point

Sometimes you want to spin some wheels or go a little sideways

[Z06_Shame]

I like the car, no doubt. But, it is an aerodynamic brick and a porker too. The engine makes good power, but has anyone heard of the LS7 (6 liters, 500 hp)? Hell, my LS6 makes 355 RWHP from 5.7 liters and the car weighs 3100 lbs. A powerful engine is great, but good power to weight ratio is even better.

[v8440]

I like the car, no doubt. But, it is an aerodynamic brick and a porker too. The engine makes good power, but has anyone heard of the LS7 (6 liters, 500 hp)? Hell, my LS6 makes 355 RWHP from 5.7 liters and the car weighs 3100 lbs. A powerful engine is great, but good power to weight ratio is even better.


Methinks I might smell a troll, based on username, not very many posts, and pointless comparisons. Can I get a witness?

[done]

That is the whole point

Sometimes you want to spin some wheels or go a little sideways

Push the button on the dash. If you have actually had your car activate the TSC or ESC while the button was pushed, please describe the circumstances and how the sytem reacted.

[MCaesar]

Push the button on the dash. If you have actually had your car activate the TSC or ESC while the button was pushed, please describe the circumstances and how the sytem reacted.

As soon as MY car is delivered I will let you know.

However, since I am waiting on a Charger SRT8 it will be about 2 more months.

But there is real good news for us "let me do it myself" racers.

1. In the latest Car & Driver a 300C SRT8 won its class in One Lap. That car DOES have a high performance limited slip differential in it. Funny how they built their car just like I have been asking - sans traction control.

2. THey also swapped out the 300C springs and shocks for the Charger SRT8 stuff because it is 25% stiffer and more biased towards handling.

Yes Virginia, there is LSD for the hi-po LX!

[Scott]

MCaesar,

Congrats on the order of a Charger! :)

The biggest thing stopping me from grabbing a black RT right now is the ESP nazi. 0.77 on the skidpad will not cut it for the way that I drive. If someone could re-program the ESP to allow SRT8 levels of slip I would be there.

ESP is not the limiting factor in cornering speed with the RT. I did a skidpad like test with both a RWD and AWD Magnum RTs. The ESP didn't interfere. My recollection is that two guys that ran their RTs at the road-race track, Northern Rider and leemille, were ok with the limited action of ESP in the off position. If fact, I think leemille said it helped him once when he came into a corner too fast.

However, ESP on the RTs, even in the off position, does put the ki-bash on some stunts and drifting.

From what you have written about your interest in better cornering, the upgrades to the tires and chassis of the SRT are the ticket for you.

The only thing I wonder about is that F1 Supercar tires for the SRT do not have a high rating for wet road traction (see Goodyear's website). Carmanzee has commented on them being squirrely in the rain. I'm sure DCX was looking for the best possible road test specs for acceleration, cornering and braking which of course are all run on dry pavement.

Goodyear has another model F1 that I am eyeing for replacement of my Conti's that have almost as good dry traction and are very good in the wet. Wisconsin has a lot of wet days, so that's important here. Those tires ought to provide an meaningful improvement in cornering, but I wish I can get an idea how much comfort I might give up.

If you are interested in reading my handling comparsion between AWD and RWD RTs here is the link.

http://www.lxforums.com/board/showthread.php?t=9394&highlight=handling+comparison

Scott

[MCaesar]

Both Car & Driver and Road & Track indicated that the ESP did limit the cars on the skidpad. But they could be wrong.

Like you, I am not esctatic about the FI tire. It is really a dry only tire. By far I prefer the Michelin Pilot Sport line. They give much better traction in the rain with only a small penalty in the dry. In fact, they are the best tire overall that I have ever used. Unfortunately, right now they do not come in 245/50-20. That should change soon.

I really don't like the Contis or the Michelin MXMs that come on the R&TPG package.

Thanks for the link

[MCaesar]

Read you article Scott

Excellent work for sure Scott

the latest Car & Driver has a road test of a Magnum AWD that you might find interesting

You also raised a good point about the Contis and how progressive they are.

I guess you need that in a tire for the masses even more than you need high skidpad figures

[qzking]

I wouldt count on that ETA!

You are probably, realistictly, looking at Haloween at the absolute earliest and probably should think about Thanksgiving or thereabouts.

Build date #1 for the Charger SRT8 is September 10th. Usually, the first builds go to a bunch of the exec's and then to those that are "connected".

I ordered my Magnum SRT8 (I'm not connected!) on May 6th. That was within the first 12 hours that they were available to order on any dealer's computer.
And only because I later deleted the Kicker audio system, based on info I got on the brampton assemby workers site, I will get it this week.

Actually, my Fleet Manager told me it would arrive on the 14th, which is the-day-after-tommorow. That's about 68 days from placing my order and everything working out perfectly.

They had to ship mine from Brampton, Ontario, Canada to So. Calif. and your's may not have to travel that far but this is my "actual" experience in ordering a Magnum SRT8.
KK




[QUOTE=MCaesar]As soon as MY car is delivered I will let you know.

However, since I am waiting on a Charger SRT8 it will be about 2 more months.

QUOTE]

[MCaesar]

I have waited this long - a couple more months won't kill me.